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Old 2008-05-29, 09:05   Link #1321
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Second, you seem to have missed the point of the signing scene. What did Anya ask Suzaku immediately after signing off the execution? "Suzaku...are you a...masochist?" Suzaku's hesitation didn't arise out of any difficulties in taking responsibility for people's deaths; rather, it was because the assassin's target was Suzaku himself that he hesitated. Because Suzaku believes himself to be a sinner deserving of punishment, he could not self-righteously condemn to death a person trying to punish him.
Then why not pardon him? It is in his authority, after all.

From your perspective, Suzaku instead allowed someone else to condemn to death a person trying to punish him. How is that any different?

You are saying he hesitates because he is kind. I say if he hesitates because he is kind, he will make the final decision himself no matter what.
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Old 2008-05-29, 09:09   Link #1322
Ice_Bullet
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Then why not pardon him? It is in his authority, after all.

From your perspective, Suzaku instead allowed someone else to condemn to death a person trying to punish him. How is that any different?

You are saying he hesitates because he is kind. I say if he hesitates because he is kind, he will make the final decision himself no matter what.
true that. if he is kind. he will interfear and stop the thing from happening at all.
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Old 2008-05-29, 11:09   Link #1323
Sol Falling
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Wtf no, I never said Suzaku is kind. Didn't I state explicitly how letting someone else do it for him was different? Because Anya was the one who did it, Anya was the one who affirmed Suzaku's right to live. Suzaku knows that the assassin is a criminal who should be punished for his crime, but he also believes that he himself deserves to be punished. Anya condemning the criminal but not Suzaku affirms for Suzaku that he still has something to do in the world, a mission to accomplish, and thus must continue on.

It was a subtle gesture, so it's not like Suzaku reacted in a big way. Still though, someone in the romance thread mentioned how this could be the start of SuzakuxAnya, and I would agree that their interactions this episode seem to developing towards a close friendship at least (seriously, that was hilarious. The loli goth girl going "Suzaku...are you a...masochist?" Just wow.).

edit:

well you know, you're right in one department. I do believe that had Anya not been there, Suzaku would have eventually signed off on the soldiers death--his conviction is worth at least that much. Regardless, my point is that Suzaku's hesitation doesn't come from wanting to avoid responsibility, but rather from not believing himself to be worthy to judge others.
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Old 2008-05-29, 13:41   Link #1324
meijiOrO
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Wtf no, I never said Suzaku is kind. Didn't I state explicitly how letting someone else do it for him was different? Because Anya was the one who did it, Anya was the one who affirmed Suzaku's right to live. Suzaku knows that the assassin is a criminal who should be punished for his crime, but he also believes that he himself deserves to be punished. Anya condemning the criminal but not Suzaku affirms for Suzaku that he still has something to do in the world, a mission to accomplish, and thus must continue on.

It was a subtle gesture, so it's not like Suzaku reacted in a big way. Still though, someone in the romance thread mentioned how this could be the start of SuzakuxAnya, and I would agree that their interactions this episode seem to developing towards a close friendship at least (seriously, that was hilarious. The loli goth girl going "Suzaku...are you a...masochist?" Just wow.).

edit:

well you know, you're right in one department. I do believe that had Anya not been there, Suzaku would have eventually signed off on the soldiers death--his conviction is worth at least that much. Regardless, my point is that Suzaku's hesitation doesn't come from wanting to avoid responsibility, but rather from not believing himself to be worthy to judge others.
I wonder if this also why it puzzles him on why Lelouch geassed him to "Live" (Not counting on his confusion regarding Euphie's death) At that time, Suzaku was gonna have both of them die, yet Lelouch wanted Suzaku to live and made sure he did.
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Old 2008-05-29, 19:38   Link #1325
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Originally Posted by meijiOrO View Post
I wonder if this also why it puzzles him on why Lelouch geassed him to "Live" (Not counting on his confusion regarding Euphie's death) At that time, Suzaku was gonna have both of them die, yet Lelouch wanted Suzaku to live and made sure he did.
He's confused because he doesn't understand how Lelouch could be kind to him yet a real bastard at the same time. Lelouch geassed him to live he could have easily geassed him to just let him go or to die. Instead Lelouch basically put himself out to ensure Suzaku's continued survival. Then Lelouch brutally crushed Suzaku's hopes and Euphies and then killed her. So Suzaku can't quite work out why Lelouch would do what he did to Euphie if he's really so caring that he'd risk his own plans to save Suzaku's life. "If you really cared enough to gurantee my survival why did you have to kill Euphie?"

Of course the answer is obvious to us. It was an accident. But since Lelouch continues to keep that to himself Suzaku will stay in confusion about how someone could have such a drastic change in actions in such a short time. On the other hand if Suzaku ever does learn this, he might be able to resolve some of his differences with Lelouch.
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Old 2008-05-29, 22:47   Link #1326
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Of course the answer is obvious to us. It was an accident. But since Lelouch continues to keep that to himself Suzaku will stay in confusion about how someone could have such a drastic change in actions in such a short time. On the other hand if Suzaku ever does learn this, he might be able to resolve some of his differences with Lelouch.
The thing that was confusing Suzaku was that Lelouch would've found other ways to save Euphie rather than just killing her (Which of course brings in an old argument on this board on whether or not it would've been possible for CC to cancel a Geass' effect and such).
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Old 2008-06-02, 23:20   Link #1327
AdvocatesConspirator
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[QUOTE=Ice_Bullet;1617963]so far, he hasn't protrait or reveal any factors that can lead him to becoming a geass giver. yes you may argue that now he can't die. but thats not of his own ability. its from lelouch. If he had a geass, wouldn't he already confronted the emperor and geass him to make him KOO? or someting stupid like that.QUOTE]

Where do I even claim such a moronic belief? How do you get that from what i've said? I simply stated that he could possibly become a geass giver. Suzaku has not been given the geass yet is able to see what others cannot (SAZ1 -> Suzaku notices CC's presence). His physical abilities and being geassed have nothing to do with this conversation. Save your thoughtless comments to yourself
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Old 2008-06-03, 04:56   Link #1328
mash11
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As a leader of other people, Suzaku has no troubles deciding what is right (see the end of turn 08). As a judge of himself, the same cannot be said.
I disagree with you there, suzaku is not the leader you are making him out to be, as a soldier he simply charges his way through everything very much like he does everything else, he puts his own thoughts into nothing he does, episode 8 for example, he exiled Zero based on Nunally's and Euphy's wishes, not his own. And even that was not thought through, seriously releasing 1 million hostiles led by Zero into the world to spread their carnage will bite Britannia badly. He belongs in the Lancelot taking orders, that is all he is good for, in his defense he is very good at that.
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Old 2008-06-03, 07:07   Link #1329
Ice_Bullet
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[QUOTE=AdvocatesConspirator;1630158]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Bullet View Post
so far, he hasn't protrait or reveal any factors that can lead him to becoming a geass giver. yes you may argue that now he can't die. but thats not of his own ability. its from lelouch. If he had a geass, wouldn't he already confronted the emperor and geass him to make him KOO? or someting stupid like that.QUOTE]

Where do I even claim such a moronic belief? How do you get that from what i've said? I simply stated that he could possibly become a geass giver. Suzaku has not been given the geass yet is able to see what others cannot (SAZ1 -> Suzaku notices CC's presence). His physical abilities and being geassed have nothing to do with this conversation. Save your thoughtless comments to yourself
why are you so worked up over one post? im just saying that he doesn't seem like a geass giver. isit wrong to say what i think? wrong to voice my opinion? zzz. its a discussion. no need to get to hot over it.

you yourself said suzaku was some mutant in your theory. im just telling you he doesn't possess such traits. yes, he can see C.C. that alone makes it suspicious but it still doesn't prove anything. so where did i offend you?
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Old 2008-06-03, 10:52   Link #1330
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by mash11 View Post
I disagree with you there, suzaku is not the leader you are making him out to be, as a soldier he simply charges his way through everything very much like he does everything else, he puts his own thoughts into nothing he does, episode 8 for example, he exiled Zero based on Nunally's and Euphy's wishes, not his own. And even that was not thought through, seriously releasing 1 million hostiles led by Zero into the world to spread their carnage will bite Britannia badly. He belongs in the Lancelot taking orders, that is all he is good for, in his defense he is very good at that.
So your saying Suzaku was wrong in letting the exiles go and should've just massacred them?

Pretty sure Suzaku wanted to avoid another bloodshed of his fellow countrymen or to stain Nunally's name.
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Old 2008-06-03, 10:54   Link #1331
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
So your saying Suzaku was wrong in letting the exiles go and should've just massacred them?
If there was someone who out-ranked him who ordered him to do so, that's exactly what he would do.

I will give Suzaku a break if he openly defiles the Emperor or one of his fellow KotR. Otherwise I will mark it down to indecisiveness.
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Old 2008-06-03, 12:05   Link #1332
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If there was someone who out-ranked him who ordered him to do so, that's exactly what he would do.

I will give Suzaku a break if he openly defiles the Emperor or one of his fellow KotR. Otherwise I will mark it down to indecisiveness.
This isn't the first time he defied orders. He was ordered to execute Lelouch but refused to do so.

Lelouch based the whole operation on Suzaku because he knew he would never order the troops to open fire on civilians and who knows him better than himself?

So tell me VCV, has there been any cases WHERE Suzaku has been ordered to execute civilians where he carried it out without question or actually has done it? Otherwise we are just going to be going with "if's here.
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Old 2008-06-03, 12:12   Link #1333
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
This isn't the first time he defied orders. He was ordered to execute Lelouch but refused to do so.

Lelouch based the whole operation on Suzaku because he knew he would never order the troops to open fire on civilians and who knows him better than himself?

So tell me VCV, has there been any cases WHERE Suzaku has been ordered to execute civilians where he carried it out without question or actually has done it? Otherwise your just sprouting "IF's" here and there.
He only defied orders in episode 1 because he wanted to die. That wasn't a "noble sacrifice"; it was an intentional suicide attempt. He could never do that again.

As far as Suzaku is concerned, those people in Zero costumes are no longer civilians but followers of Zero. He would be able to justify killing them as long as someone else gives the order.

"He would never order the Troops" is the key word here. Suzaku doesn't like giving orders if he can help it; someone else has to take the blame first before he could take the blood of the innocent.
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Old 2008-06-03, 12:18   Link #1334
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
He only defied orders in episode 1 because he wanted to die. That wasn't a "noble sacrifice"; it was an intentional suicide attempt. He could never do that again.

As far as Suzaku is concerned, those people in Zero costumes are no longer civilians but followers of Zero. He would be able to justify killing them as long as someone else gives the order.

"He would never order the Troops" is the key word here. Suzaku doesn't like giving orders if he can help it; someone else has to take the blame first before he could take the blood of the innocent.
So what? Are you some vulture just lurking up there in the sky waiting for Suzaku to order a massacre or something and then swoop down on him and tear him to pieces?

If he would justify killing them so long as someone else gives the order why didn't he just leave it to Nunnally's aid then? She was pretty much giving the order to kill them. All he had to do was just sit back and watch or go and tend Nunnally.

The only people outranking him are Charles and the Knight of One so I'm guessing we should wait until they order Suzaku to massacre people then? Do you know when that will be or will it even happen I mean you seem pretty 100% sure it'll happen.

Last edited by SoldierOfDarkness; 2008-06-03 at 12:31.
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Old 2008-06-03, 12:59   Link #1335
Kaze
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The only people outranking him are Charles and the Knight of One so I'm guessing we should wait until they order Suzaku to massacre people then? Do you know when that will be or will it even happen I mean you seem pretty 100% sure it'll happen.
Didn't he like, already do that in the E.U?
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Old 2008-06-03, 13:59   Link #1336
SoldierOfDarkness
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Didn't he like, already do that in the E.U?
Aside from the fact that there's zero evidence of Suzaku massacring civilians there where were you since episode 8? Unless you mean those EU knightmares were civilians and were innocent (Though in war there's no such thing....)

According to Kanon they made peace with France, much to Nina's surprise as she noted they could've just conquered them.
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Old 2008-06-03, 14:01   Link #1337
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Aside from the fact that there's zero evidence of Suzaku massacring civilians where were you since episode 8?

According to Kanon they made peace with France, much to Nina's surprise as she noted they could've just conquered them.
Of course, the fact that most of the soldiers would have been civilians who enlisted to protect their homes from invasion makes them okay to kill...
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Old 2008-06-03, 14:07   Link #1338
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Of course, the fact that most of the soldiers would have been civilians who enlisted to protect their homes from invasion makes them okay to kill...
Yeah but it's war mon...and they didn't even conquered them at all.

Hmm I don't recall you ever being that anti-war have you VCV? I mean you must be against every single war ever made in history.
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Old 2008-06-03, 14:28   Link #1339
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Yeah but it's war mon...and they didn't even conquered them at all.

Hmm I don't recall you ever being that anti-war have you VCV? I mean you must be against every single war ever made in history.
I don't see how anyone could be pro-invasion. I am no dove, but you have to be a Nina to think there is any pretense that there is something "okay" about blatant loot and plunder.

Recent English dub of the Emperor's speech at Clovis' funeral even had "plunder" as one of Britannia's stated goals.

Make no mistake; not even Britannians think their war is just. They just don't give a damn.

Paris might have left the conflict, but that is only happening to allow Britannia marching pass them and attack the rest of Europe. Britannia will leave France last.
(And while it happens, Suzaku will continue to claim that these people deserve to die because they didn't surrender to the ALL MIGHTY Britannian army. Live on your knees you fool! Stop defending yourselves!)
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Old 2008-06-03, 14:45   Link #1340
orangejuicetang
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How about the Civil War then? If the North didn't invade the South, the confederacy along with slavery would have survived. Once a civilian enlists as a solider, he becomes a solider. People aren't thinking "hey that solider used to be a civilian, like every other solider." Unless they were drafted, but then it's another story. Also, Suzuku specifically ordered the soliders to not massacre the civilians, which is different from not ordering anything at all. If he had just kept quiet, both Guilford and the teacher lady would have fired into the crowd. There has been no evidence as of yet that he would obey orders from a superior officer to massacre civilians.
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