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Old 2008-04-13, 13:13   Link #121
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
One simple answer, and fitting for Suzaku: Even if it's a stretch, he believes in people's kindness, just like with Lelouch and Nunnally. Especially, Euphemia, and the Special Envoy that gave him the chance to change his future.

You may say naive, but that's Suzaku.
That's not helping -_-

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Suzaku has to do it. He has to. It's his job. He can make their lives better in the end if he can change everything.
Uh...no he can't. Before Suzaku/Britainnia, they were free people with their own country. After Suzaku/Britainnia, they are colonies without their own country. I don't see how this is better, EVEN IF Britainnia treated them equally. (And thats a big IF)




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He hopes because he's seen Britannians that are actually kind. Refer to Suzaku's simpleness and trust of others. That is where his hope lies from. From that single summer he had with Lelouch and Nunnally, which was heavily reinforced by his inclusion in Special Envoy and to his gradual climb in rank.
You know, statistically speaking, it's impossible for an entire race to be racist or discriminatory. I find it hard to make a value judgment on what is best for a conquered race based on the fact that there are a few kind britainnians compared to god knows how many racist ones.


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Well, that's true. Schneizel's basically doing what he does for the Empire, which includes a large number of people. So idealism wouldn't work. But his pragmatism will force the Empire to follow his lead in the inclusion of the conquered.

They are the ones who will "breathe new life" into the empire.
That's assuming the Emperor has absolute power. Now I'm not sure about that, because Emperors can be assassinated and killed. In fact, isn't that the preferred method for Britainnian Emperors to be deposed? So it's possibly that if Schneizel really wants to live a long and prosperous life, he might be wise not to go against the wishes of his nobles.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:19   Link #122
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It certainly wasn't kindness that gave Suzaku his current job; he sold a man like a bag of silver for it, as I said before. Kindness has nothing to do with Suzaku anymore, if it ever did before.
Sold for bag of silver silver silver.

Lelouch betrayed Suzaku's trust first and everyone Suzaku cares for. Suzaku believes that Lelouch killed Euphemia and caused the deaths of so many Japanese who dreamt of life in the SAR.

Like I said, if I were in Suzaku's shoes, I would've shot Lelouch to death.

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And as I keep saying, there is no evidence anywhere that he has a plan for changing anything at all. His current job is to make his "plan" harder to achieve, thus the longer he works for the Emperor, the further away he is to his goal.
There is no evidence, you say, but becoming Knight of Rounds is part of it already. I do not know the future, but it is CERTAIN that Suzaku is trying to amass power. That much is sure.

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Lulu has a plan. And everyone who works with him know what it is, as it is simple and worked many times before. While your only explanation on how Suzaku supposedly had a plan was based on the fact that you think he need one, while having no idea what it actually is.
Yeah, but Lelouch doesn't exactly tells the audience what his actual plans are in advance, right?

So if Lelouch is allowed that privilege, give it to Suzaku as well. Hate can be accepted but blind hate is just blind.


Quote:
Schneizel wouldn't wait for the Emperor to die of old age, if he was interested in the Throne. Suzaku will need to die before Schneizel take power.
Who knows? Who knows? I'm no fortune teller. You seem like you're one.

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Educated by who's orders? The people aren't going to be "educated" by anything except the current Emperor's views.
The Emperor already let a Number enter the Knight of Rounds. That already shows a precedent and would lead to, no matter how small you think it is, that the Emperor respects power, no matter what nationality.

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That's not helping -_-
I know. But that's Suzaku to a fault.

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Uh...no he can't. Before Suzaku/Britainnia, they were free people with their own country. After Suzaku/Britainnia, they are colonies without their own country. I don't see how this is better, EVEN IF Britainnia treated them equally. (And thats a big IF)
Freedom is relative. If people are living a good life, freedom seldom matters. It's only a change in government. If Suzaku succeeds, then that will be the case. People don't revolt for freedom's sake, they revolt because they are unsatisfied.

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You know, statistically speaking, it's impossible for an entire race to be racist or discriminatory. I find it hard to make a value judgment on what is best for a conquered race based on the fact that there are a few kind britainnians compared to god knows how many racist ones.
Yeah, same with America back then. Very racist. Look at America now, not as much. Times, precedents and education change everything.

Quote:
That's assuming the Emperor has absolute power. Now I'm not sure about that, because Emperors can be assassinated and killed. In fact, isn't that the preferred method for Britainnian Emperors to be deposed? So it's possibly that if Schneizel really wants to live a long and prosperous life, he might be wise not to go against the wishes of his nobles.
And Schneizel can be beaten by who? Schneizel is able to command the loyalty of so many people, it's hard to see anyone who would be able to assassinate him. And because he has brains that may surpass Lelouch, what Lelouch can do outside of the system, he may be able to achieve inside of it.


EDIT FINISHED

And as much as I enjoyed this discussion, see you all next week.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:23   Link #123
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
There is no evidence, you say, but becoming Knight of Rounds is part of it already. I do not know the future, but it is CERTAIN that Suzaku is trying to amass power. That much is sure.
And I suppose you are basing the entire idea that Suzaku want to change Britannia for the better, base on the fact that Suzaku is amassing power?

From what else we know about Suzaku, it is entirely a stretch.
Quote:
Who knows? Who knows? I'm no fortune teller. You seem like you're one.
I know Suzaku DOESN'T know. And if he doesn't know, then he doesn't have a plan.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:31   Link #124
Nanaya
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And I suppose you are basing the entire idea that Suzaku want to change Britannia for the better, base on the fact that Suzaku is amassing power?

From what else we know about Suzaku, it is entirely a stretch.
Stretch, because Suzaku is aiming for the longshot. Even I know that.

Quote:
I know Suzaku DOESN'T know. And if he doesn't know, then he doesn't have a plan.
He knows. He made himself Knight of Rounds. He has something WE don't know about.

Just because YOU don't know, doesn't mean HE doesn't know.


Now I'm REALLY gone for now.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:33   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Well that's why he has to do his job. To curry favor. Seriously, even if you hate Suzaku, logically speaking, you should have already understood why Suzaku is doing what he's doing.
I believe it has been pretty clear what Suzaku has been doing, and why it seems irrational to many. In the basis of his reasoning has one main belief - that Britannia is invincible. That it can't be defeated and thus forced to change. Britannia must not be defeated, because that would render the rationale for him murdering his own father very moot.

Thats why he keeps going like a broken record about having to change the empire from within (and hasn't actually done a single thing to that goal, mind you) - because he can not allow it to be broken physically. Thats why he detests Zero - he was proving the opposite to be true, and he couldn't allow it to happen. His actions are contradicting his statements because he never has cared much about it ... i am not even sure he cares much whether Britannia changes or not, as long as its not defeated, because that would prove him to be wrong on all ends in murdering his father. I am sure he would like to see that change ... but i don't think he is going to cry a bucket even if nothing changes.

His position now doesn't give him any more power to that goal than being a simple grunt. Perhaps its even the opposite. He still wags his tail and kills whomever he is told to, because its his job. I doubt he has even thought much about changing anything, because he can't change nothing. He is not in the position to do so, and will never be. I don't think there even is such a position, short of emperor himself. And not like decades (generations?) of britannian mindset is going to change because one guy stepped up to the throne and said "lets play nice now". His supposed goal is not rational at all, and the way he goes about it is a logical failure ... or would be, because i believe his primary concern is to ensure Britannia's invincibility in order to avoid confronting the truth about him being wrong in killing his father.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:37   Link #126
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His best chance to start change is by gaining one of the highest and most influencable positions avaliable.. he obviously thought that part through, to catch Zero and to bring him there for a promotion... i guess he thought about that after Euphie died because it sure didnt sound like he was making everything up when he stood in front of the Emperor.. it is probably also the reason why he was heartless in that scene because it was something that he had to do no matter what.. even if Zero is Lelouch he wouldnt back down from his decision because if he were to let Zero go then in Suzaku's mind nothing would change and there would only remain fighting and killing (then the Zero ideology continiues with the methods he hates so badly and the world would be driven into deeper despair because of the destruction of Britannia hence that the murde rof his father owuld be useless completely)

boo, it'll still take a while before a subbed version is out so we can actually know how much Suzaku now knows about everything.. or about what he doesnt know...
because even with his promotion Suzaku is still stupid and blind, the part of change might have been possible but only if Britannia was playing the cards fairly and right now there is no reason at all to indicate that 'that' is true.. (hasnt been true for generations lol)
Suzaku might be given false cards from everyone without even realising how wrong reality really is... same goes with us people, because non of us really know what is going on at this point and the only thing we can do is guess...
Suzaku might know some small details about geass but i bet he doesnt know the meanign behind everything and he is probably being used to gain that last goal the emperor has in his plans... seriously if they do i "OMG i just realised the hard way that i was fighting on the wrong side after all so i am going to turn to the good side at the final episode" trick then im going to hurl.. one Shinn Asuka is enough.. i liked one i dont want two... -_-; (and yes i know Shinn only turned good after losing on the bad side and not changign sides in the final show down at all)

also something else we do not know is how much influence the Knight of Rounds actually have, we know they fight as if they are in God-mode, or atleased we assume.. but 4 hadron cannons tells us enough...
Suzaku must've really done some homework before realising what he was getting himself into.. but even then he wouldnt have a plan he woudl just be an Eleven with a high rank.. several people would look up to him and maybe some people would think of Eleven's or any other low society class alike to their own but i don't think that will happen... i am certain that will not happen because nothing has changed in the world instead it remained the same as it was before when Zero wasn't around -_-; probably even worse witht he public shown executions... Suzaku probably doesnt even know about those things...
but if Suzaku were to say soemthing to a gouvernor general or any other high ranked Britannian, would he have the last say in the issiue because he's a KoR?
would they have to obey him..? im thinking of a yes
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:43   Link #127
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Freedom is relative. If people are living a good life, freedom seldom matters. It's only a change in government. If Suzaku succeeds, then that will be the case. People don't revolt for freedom's sake, they revolt because they are unsatisfied.
I'm sorry, but the argument was that the people would be BETTER off after Suzaku was done. Again, I don't see how that's possible after they've been conquered and stripped of their sovereignty (and that's not even counting how many of them will be killed in the wars) Besides, people do revolt for freedoms sake, it's because they don't have freedom that they're unsatisfied.

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Yeah, same with America back then. Very racist. Look at America now, not as much. Times, precedents and education change everything.
America is America. Britainnia is Britainnia. Until the day, America starts killing non-americans in ghettos and goes around conquering more countries with the blatant and reinforced social attitude that might makes right and because they lost, they're inferior, then come to me and talk about comparisons between America and Britainnia.

Furthermore, this brings me back to a previous point I mentioned. Nobody said discrimination couldn't fade, just that it's a long shot, especially with the way Britainnia is.


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And Schneizel can be beaten by who? Schneizel is able to command the loyalty of so many people, it's hard to see anyone who would be able to assassinate him. And because he has brains that may surpass Lelouch, what Lelouch can do outside of the system, he may be able to achieve inside of it.
Uh...there's no way Lelouch can work inside the system for one simple reason. He's supposed to be dead. That and the fact that if he appeared, he and his sister would be utilised as pawns by the nobility since their rank is pretty much worthless. Therefore, Lelouch has no choice but to work outside the system unless he wants to try and change the system disguised as Luluko.

And yes, Schneizel can probably be beaten. All the characters in Code Geass can. They're not uber Mary-Sues or Gary-Stus. Heck, Schneizel could have already been killed easily that one time when Lelouch and Kallen managed to hijack the Gawain and defeat this small platoon of armed guards. So much for the vaunted security.

edit: I just realised who Suzaku needs to be like if he wants to change things from within. Delita from FFT -_- that's who.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:46   Link #128
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by -KarumA- View Post
Suzaku probably doesnt even know about those things...
but if Suzaku were to say soemthing to a gouvernor general or any other high ranked Britannian, would he have the last say in the issiue because he's a KoR?
would they have to obey him..? im thinking of a yes
Well, if Suzaku doesn't know people in Japan are being massacred, then he isn't paying much attention to Japan is he? It was public knowledge that Japan was being made an example of.

Suzaku will come back to Japan soon. I am not holding out much hope that he would give a damn about the pain his people are in, anymore than last season. For Suzaku, anyone who oppose the Empire deserve to die, just like his father.

As for orders, we will see. I have serious doubts that Suzaku could gave any order that didn't come from the Emperor directly.
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Old 2008-04-13, 13:51   Link #129
noodlemeister
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Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
And Schneizel can be beaten by who? Schneizel is able to command the loyalty of so many people, it's hard to see anyone who would be able to assassinate him. And because he has brains that may surpass Lelouch, what Lelouch can do outside of the system, he may be able to achieve inside of it.
People seem to forget that the last time Lelouch played chess with Schneizel was when he was 10, or 11 at the most. He must be better by now. Plus he's got geass. I rest my case!
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Old 2008-04-13, 14:25   Link #130
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Originally Posted by noodlemeister View Post
People seem to forget that the last time Lelouch played chess with Schneizel was when he was 10, or 11 at the most. He must be better by now. Plus he's got geass. I rest my case!
Just like his father and brother, there's no guarantee that Schneizel doesn't also have a Geass or at least knows of it. His interest in the ruins should be hint of that.
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Old 2008-04-13, 14:52   Link #131
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i wonder how Suzuku reacted to the fact that the Emperor has Geass?

since he more or less accused Lulu to be power hungry tyrant using his Geass power for his own gain.

Won't it be ironic for him to follow the Emepror who has obviously been doing exactly that?
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Old 2008-04-13, 16:12   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
i wonder how Suzuku reacted to the fact that the Emperor has Geass?

since he more or less accused Lulu to be power hungry tyrant using his Geass power for his own gain.

Won't it be ironic for him to follow the Emepror who has obviously been doing exactly that?
We all dont know, all we know is Suzu may have found out before the entire Area 11 Administrative Area Incident. That or maybe VV told him even more aside telling him about Geass.
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Old 2008-04-13, 16:26   Link #133
metronome
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suzaku is simple to be discussed of......
he is just one of the guy that believe everything must be achieved by collaboration.
that's all.
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Old 2008-04-13, 17:06   Link #134
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Well, Suzaku is the same as Lelouch; by betraying their own kind to achieve a new world order. Suzaku's way.... lame and willing to be victimize by Britannia's extraterrestrial power. Lelouch's way.... stunningly badass and cunning with no use of HAX robot driving magic and did everything from scratch.
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Old 2008-04-13, 17:19   Link #135
metronome
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Originally Posted by Methuselah View Post
Well, Suzaku is the same as Lelouch; by betraying their own kind to achieve a new world order. Suzaku's way.... lame and willing to be victimize by Britannia's extraterrestrial power. Lelouch's way.... stunningly badass and cunning with no use of HAX robot driving magic and did everything from scratch.
basically, they are both badass:P.
I think I have said something about "dog" vs "terrorist" before.
lelouch is more to terrorist while suzaku is more to dog.
ya dog is lamer.
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Old 2008-04-13, 17:21   Link #136
Methuselah
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A dog... Suzaku is more of a puppy. :P I wouldn't say Lelouch is a terrorist.. A conflict-ending-terrorist, but not part of our JAPAN!!!
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Old 2008-04-13, 17:40   Link #137
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Originally Posted by metronome View Post
basically, they are both badass:P.
I think I have said something about "dog" vs "terrorist" before.
lelouch is more to terrorist while suzaku is more to dog.
A true dog of the military (FMA)
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Old 2008-04-13, 17:51   Link #138
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Originally Posted by Methuselah View Post
Well, Suzaku is the same as Lelouch; by betraying their own kind to achieve a new world order. Suzaku's way.... lame and willing to be victimize by Britannia's extraterrestrial power. Lelouch's way.... stunningly badass and cunning with no use of HAX robot driving magic and did everything from scratch.

Lelouch is not capable of whining as much as Suzaku.
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Old 2008-04-13, 17:56   Link #139
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Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz View Post
Lelouch is not capable of whining as much as Suzaku.
That was the old/fake Suzaku! He doesn't whine anymore!
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Old 2008-04-13, 18:04   Link #140
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hmmm I'm wondering if Knight of the Round is the highest position he can hope to achieve as a "number". It's kinda of reminiscent of Lou Lou's mom. She was a highly decorated knightmare pilot before catching the eye of the Emperor. That being said his chances of becoming a noble are kinda low but not impossible. His main opposition would be the other nobles trying to keep him out.

I only bring it up cause I'm wondering if he's thinking that maybe with enough clout he could be appointed to Governor of Area 11.

Honestly though, after Euphimia died I'm thinking all of heart of his ideas are dead and he's only going through the motions.
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