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Old 2008-06-09, 19:13   Link #1441
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
I sincerely apologise.

I mean radical fanboys, if you're just a fan then that's fine because I am a fan of both GS, Lelouch and Suzaku. But I dislike it when fanboys go ranting about with their hate on the other chars.
Agreed. Heck, I wish there was more such courtesy among all the anime fans on the forums as in this case

I am the one of those who really got into Lelouch's character but at the same time praise Suzaku for his qualities because he without doubt has many of them. The sole thing I don't like about him is that he is siding with the Kingdom to which killing masses of people is nothing but an everyday bread. Whilst I am not that harsh against Kururugi himself, I am one of those to whom the vision of countless murders commited by Britannians on the Japanese just shaped the view on who is evil and who is not. And I find it a bit sad that Suzaku, such a good-natured boy ultimately sided with the people i consider "evil" because of their belief in supremacy and villanous machiavellism. Lelouch has those traits too, IMO, but he is interesting enough as the one to raise against those of his kind. And I love it when the "lesser evil" slaughters the "greater evil". It's just fun :]
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Old 2008-06-09, 19:23   Link #1442
orangejuicetang
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You know, the thing is that first watching Code Geass, I liked both Lelouch and Suzuku, but after reading the mindless bashing on Suzuku and unjustified justifications on Lelouch, I find myself liking Suzku a little bit better and Lelouch a little bit worse.
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Old 2008-06-09, 19:27   Link #1443
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
I dislike Suzaku not because I like Lelouch.

I dislike Suzaku because I value kinship, patriotism, pride, freedom, close inter-personal long-time relations, trust, and anti-tyranny, over things such as non-violence at the price of submission.

Obviously Suzaku feels oppositely, but that's why I dislike him since I highly value those traits I've listed.
edit:

Well the level of discourse in this thread has stepped up a little then, but then it seems like you should have better targets than Suzaku.

The thing is, if you value stuff like patriotism, and pride then it doesn't seem like Code Geass is a show you should watch at all, as both of the protagonists oppose those in some manner. With Suzaku's submission to Britannia and Lelouch's disdain for the JLF, Code Geass has almost an explicit anti-nationalistic outlook (take a look at this blog post for example).

Furthermore, Suzaku's only transgression against 'kinship' was in the name of 'anti-tyranny', and his betrayal of Lelouch was the trade of one close long-term interpersonal relationship for another. I don't quite see where Suzaku breaks 'trust' and in the end he's still working for his people's 'freedom'. Furthermore, you've characterized Suzaku's main principle falsely, as he doesn't believe in 'non-violence' at all. So in the sum of it, it doesn't quite seem like Suzaku really opposes your values.
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Old 2008-06-09, 20:21   Link #1444
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
You know, the thing is that first watching Code Geass, I liked both Lelouch and Suzuku, but after reading the mindless bashing on Suzuku and unjustified justifications on Lelouch, I find myself liking Suzku a little bit better and Lelouch a little bit worse.
Glad I'm not the only one
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Old 2008-06-09, 20:25   Link #1445
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
I find it ironic that the Lulu fanboys are almost at the level of the Gundam seed fanboys. These guys need a life.
No, the people who keep on complaining about an illegal move in a chess game that takes place in a fictional universe where man can command giant robots and use mystical powers to command people, read minds, alter memories, and stop time are the people who needs to get a life.
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Old 2008-06-09, 23:27   Link #1446
Cherudim Arche
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
edit:

Well the level of discourse in this thread has stepped up a little then, but then it seems like you should have better targets than Suzaku.

The thing is, if you value stuff like patriotism, and pride then it doesn't seem like Code Geass is a show you should watch at all, as both of the protagonists oppose those in some manner. With Suzaku's submission to Britannia and Lelouch's disdain for the JLF, Code Geass has almost an explicit anti-nationalistic outlook (take a look at this blog post for example).

Furthermore, Suzaku's only transgression against 'kinship' was in the name of 'anti-tyranny', and his betrayal of Lelouch was the trade of one close long-term interpersonal relationship for another. I don't quite see where Suzaku breaks 'trust' and in the end he's still working for his people's 'freedom'. Furthermore, you've characterized Suzaku's main principle falsely, as he doesn't believe in 'non-violence' at all. So in the sum of it, it doesn't quite seem like Suzaku really opposes your values.
The power of Isolationism!
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Old 2008-06-09, 23:45   Link #1447
tenken627
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blog post

That was a very interesting read. I forgot all about the Subway Sarin Nerve gas attack in Tokyo. I was 13 or 14 years old at the time?

And I never knew that the date August 10 when Britannia invaded Japan mirrors the date when Japan surrendered to the Allied Forces during World War II.

I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with somethings that were said. I agree that real life Britain may have similarities to Japan on the outside if you look at societal contexts.

But, if you look at their Empires in the past, it was the Japanese Empire that more resembled CG's Britannian Empire more so than the old British Empire. While the British Empire took on Kipling's "White Man's Burden", the Japanese Empire took on the "Mighty Man's Privilege", much like Emperor Charles' Britannian Empire. Still, Japanese colonial rule is a very touchy issue, and even a fictional anime piece on that subject would draw some very harsh criticisms.

Don't mind me, I'm just rambling to myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
edit:

Well the level of discourse in this thread has stepped up a little then, but then it seems like you should have better targets than Suzaku.

The thing is, if you value stuff like patriotism, and pride then it doesn't seem like Code Geass is a show you should watch at all, as both of the protagonists oppose those in some manner. With Suzaku's submission to Britannia and Lelouch's disdain for the JLF, Code Geass has almost an explicit anti-nationalistic outlook (take a look at this blog post for example).
I do value patriotism and pride, but neither am I so fervent about it that I can not be entertained by an anime series and grind my teeth every time I see an anti-nationalistic type scene.

And I do realize that patriotism and pride have a wide variance of meanings from person to person. I am not the kind of person to start naming my french fries "freedom fries" nor am I the kind of person to wag my tail at the mention of Idiotic Bush's Patriot Act which violates our individual privacy in the name of national security. I just value sovereignty and basic human rights.

I just watch Code Geass for pure entertainment reasons. That's why I dislike Suzaku for the actions that he's done, but I'm not losing sleep over it. It is what it is. He's just a character.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Furthermore, Suzaku's only transgression against 'kinship' was in the name of 'anti-tyranny', and his betrayal of Lelouch was the trade of one close long-term interpersonal relationship for another. I don't quite see where Suzaku breaks 'trust' and in the end he's still working for his people's 'freedom'. Furthermore, you've characterized Suzaku's main principle falsely, as he doesn't believe in 'non-violence' at all. So in the sum of it, it doesn't quite seem like Suzaku really opposes your values.

I don't rewatch Code Geass over and over again like I do some other animes, so I'm no expert on it. Suzaku committed patricide because his father represented tyranny? What else can you mean by saying that he transgressed against "kinship" in the name of "anti-tyranny"? I don't remember that, but maybe you can point out the episode for me.

I find it very interesting that you are trying to describe my own values to me. Are you by any chance so caught up in defending Suzaku from others that you have become a little overzealous in doing it?

I don't know why you are pushing it, but I'm not the type of person to dislike a character because of some random, obscure thing. He just mirrors oppositely of me. That's it. He may reflect you a little more, and that may be the reason why you are more inclined to like his character. I don't know.



And, if you want to know why there are so many Suzaku hating posts, and Lulu praising posts, it's just because Lelouch was made more charismatic. It might be wrong, but charismatic people throughout time and history just attract others to them, even if their ideals are very wrong. That's just life.

By the way, I don't like Lelouch much either. Still entertaining though.

Last edited by tenken627; 2008-06-09 at 23:59.
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Old 2008-06-09, 23:47   Link #1448
Sotobrastos
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
No, the people who keep on complaining about an illegal move in a chess game that takes place in a fictional universe where man can command giant robots and use mystical powers to command people, read minds, alter memories, and stop time are the people who needs to get a life.
That's a very bad argument. We as viewers expect a degree of realism in the show; though there are, indeed, giant robots, 'magic' as in the Geass users, and tits with some satisfying physics behind them, those things are indeed okay, simply because they fit in with that we expect of the CG universe. When you fuck up a chess game like they did here, without prior explanation as to how it may be justified, you're simply alienating those viewers who possess some knowledge of the game of chess.

It's like seeing, say, Lelouch go KAMEHAMEHA and shoot fireballs out of his ass and saying it's okay, since... the show has giant robots in it.
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Old 2008-06-10, 01:42   Link #1449
Sir Dearka
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That's a very bad argument. We as viewers expect a degree of realism in the show; though there are, indeed, giant robots, 'magic' as in the Geass users, and tits with some satisfying physics behind them, those things are indeed okay, simply because they fit in with that we expect of the CG universe. When you fuck up a chess game like they did here, without prior explanation as to how it may be justified, you're simply alienating those viewers who possess some knowledge of the game of chess.

It's like seeing, say, Lelouch go KAMEHAMEHA and shoot fireballs out of his ass and saying it's okay, since... the show has giant robots in it.
I don't have a knowledge on the game so it kinda did not bother me at all. I leave it to you as without the knowledge of chess I could not discuss further.

And yeah, I've never expected Japanese shows to be so thorough and realistic about things. Like English texts, for instance. Many texts in newspapers and "important" documents in Gundam 00 were written in bad English, for example. Still, it did not destroy the show to me.

But let's not go off topic on Suzaku thread.
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Old 2008-06-10, 07:49   Link #1450
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by Sotobrastos View Post
That's a very bad argument. We as viewers expect a degree of realism in the show; though there are, indeed, giant robots, 'magic' as in the Geass users, and tits with some satisfying physics behind them, those things are indeed okay, simply because they fit in with that we expect of the CG universe. When you fuck up a chess game like they did here, without prior explanation as to how it may be justified, you're simply alienating those viewers who possess some knowledge of the game of chess.

It's like seeing, say, Lelouch go KAMEHAMEHA and shoot fireballs out of his ass and saying it's okay, since... the show has giant robots in it.
You lost me on comparing realism to robots and magic.
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Old 2008-06-10, 10:02   Link #1451
Sotobrastos
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
You lost me on comparing realism to robots and magic.
Amazingly, this crap is annoying.

This is getting off topic, but robots and magic are realistic within the CG universe, and because of that, we accept their existence within it. Arguing that because mechas don't exist in real life but they do in CG, anything can happen within the CG universe and we should all just accept it as 'lol its a cartoon' is stupid.

Last edited by Sotobrastos; 2008-06-10 at 10:15.
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Old 2008-06-10, 10:21   Link #1452
mangastuff
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I dislike Suzaku, just because he is so much like an hypocrite to me. It is really amazing because I usually like all of the MALE chars (you know, I am a little bit... lol) , except Suzaku and the even more hateful Prince (and then King) in the first part of the manwha Princess >*<

In this anime I like all the characters including Charles but Nina + Suzaku.
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Old 2008-06-10, 10:34   Link #1453
Eliarine
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You know what? I think Lloyd's line at the end of episode 8 is rather interesting. Suzaku saved one million people but no one will ever thank him for it. Just like he's not really worse than Zero himself, but people don't really want to see it either.

I guess it's easier to put people in the "bad" and "good" category and leave them there, and seeing how everyone keeps describing Lelouch as a good guy deep down, Suzaku has to be evil. Which is sad since no one being completely right or wrong is what I like the most about this series.
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Old 2008-06-10, 10:34   Link #1454
Dynastya
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Though Suzaku's idea of changing Britannia from within sounds nice, I wonder how he had planned to do that if Zero and OBK had not appeared? Much less become a member of the Rounds if it hadn't been for Zero.
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Old 2008-06-10, 10:42   Link #1455
ZeroSama
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Chances are he would be dead. If Zero hadn't appeared he would've had no Lancelot with Uber Hax abilities and no "live" order to prevent enemy assissted suicide.

You know even though i'm a Lulu fan i don't hate Suzaku as a character even with all the naive crap he spouted in R1. However i can't forgive him for helping to spread oppression and racism across the world(a few of my friends in other forums are Polish and as soon as i mention his name or CG they go into dog of psuedo-Nazi rants).
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Old 2008-06-10, 11:04   Link #1456
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
I don't rewatch Code Geass over and over again like I do some other animes, so I'm no expert on it. Suzaku committed patricide because his father represented tyranny? What else can you mean by saying that he transgressed against "kinship" in the name of "anti-tyranny"? I don't remember that, but maybe you can point out the episode for me.
Suzaku killed his father because his father intended to adopt a do or die resistance against Britannia when the Japanese had already lost. As we know, the Japanese only had one victory against Britannia in the entire history of that war, and that was Toudou's 'miracle'. Furthermore, the only reason Britannia declared war against Japan in the first place was because Suzaku's father was using sanctions on sakuradite to extort higher prices from each of the three main powers--because, if any of the three attacked, the other two would immediately jump in as well and spark a global war. In fact, according to the Code Geass Stage Zero novels, Japan had explicitly allied with China and the EU to deny Britannia any Sakuradite, and proceeded to taunt them--basically, Genbu Kururugi was asking for it. Then when Britannia, using their newly developed Knightmare Frames were able to quickly conquer Japan before any interference from the other factions was possible, Genbu decided that Japan should resist to the last man. Basically, he intended to meaninglessly sacrifice millions of people for the sake of his own pride. Suzaku described his perceptions of his father and Zero concisely in episode 19. "They think that the world revolves around them. That's why, no matter how much blood is shed..."

Quote:
I find it very interesting that you are trying to describe my own values to me. Are you by any chance so caught up in defending Suzaku from others that you have become a little overzealous in doing it?

I don't know why you are pushing it, but I'm not the type of person to dislike a character because of some random, obscure thing. He just mirrors oppositely of me. That's it. He may reflect you a little more, and that may be the reason why you are more inclined to like his character. I don't know.
Hey you know, don't mind me, really. I even brought you a bit of 'interesting reading', didn't I? :P You don't need to speculate that Suzaku reflects my values or any such little thing; I appreciate that you aren't one to arbitrarily dislike a character, but I'm the sort of person who can hardly dislike a fictional character at all. And that is because I believe in the malleability of the human mind, that man is inherently good (or the same) and that it is the environment and one's past that shapes them. With fiction's inherent function in the suspension of disbelief, every well-constructed character becomes empathetic, becomes either the victim or the champion of his past, becomes compelling and likable. This goes for both Suzaku and Lelouch, and what I protest most is that people are willing to take the time and thought to empathize with Lelouch but will not extend the same courtesy to Suzaku.

Quote:
And, if you want to know why there are so many Suzaku hating posts, and Lulu praising posts, it's just because Lelouch was made more charismatic. It might be wrong, but charismatic people throughout time and history just attract others to them, even if their ideals are very wrong. That's just life.

By the way, I don't like Lelouch much either. Still entertaining though.
That is true, and we were forwarding the same stereotype. It's just life, but it's also the natural course that those who refuse to fall into such pits will look down on the simpletons who do. That you presented your dislike for Suzaku as seperate from that is commendable, but you also presented yourself in such a manner as to undermine our contempt for the rest of them. By saying "Hey! I don't hate Suzaku because I like Lelouch" you seem to be saying that our words and generalizations are unjustified, that they do not apply to you in any case. That's why I said "Well, the level of discourse has risen a little" and that's also why, your post paying specific reference to ours, I was compelled to respond to it.
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Old 2008-06-10, 11:12   Link #1457
DN24
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Though Suzaku's idea of changing Britannia from within sounds nice, I wonder how he had planned to do that if Zero and OBK had not appeared? Much less become a member of the Rounds if it hadn't been for Zero.
Quote:
Chances are he would be dead. If Zero hadn't appeared he would've had no Lancelot with Uber Hax abilities and no "live" order to prevent enemy assissted suicide.
There wouldn't be any Zero or OoBK had Suzaku not been there.
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Old 2008-06-10, 11:15   Link #1458
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Though Suzaku's idea of changing Britannia from within sounds nice, I wonder how he had planned to do that if Zero and OBK had not appeared? Much less become a member of the Rounds if it hadn't been for Zero.
Here on a seperate note. Suzaku was specifically drafted as Lancelot's pilot for his uberhax piloting abilities, and is the only one able to achieve such synchronization rates as 93%. Even without being shot in the back by the captain, he probably would have been found (as again no nobles were willing to risk their lives piloting an experimental and dangerous suit like Lancelot (no ejection seat) anyway).

So once he's in Lancelot's piloting seat, Lloyd's desire to actually get some data could have handled the rest. Suzaku would have eventually gotten a chance to shine (i.e. episode 8, which was not instigated by Lelouch and in which Suzaku actually made quite a bit of headway--in fact, had Suzaku succeeded, that incident might even have been a catalyst for him meeting Euphie again), and as he was under Schniezel there still would have been the entire European theatre to make his name known. Suzaku became the 'White Reaper' entirely without the Black Knights, so there's no doubt that Suzaku could still have gone quite far even without the existence of Zero.
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Old 2008-06-10, 11:45   Link #1459
ZeroSama
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He wouldn't have been selected. Numbers can't be pilots so he wouldn't have gotten near one of them to be tested in the first place(hell he wouldn't even have been given a form to fill in for the test for the test). Llyod needed a pilot so he got a quick check and OMFG you have teh Hax skills you must pilot. Also no Lelouch no trouble in Shinjuku ghetto and no need for it to be deployed in the first place.
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Old 2008-06-10, 11:56   Link #1460
Sotobrastos
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He wouldn't have been selected. Numbers can't be pilots so he wouldn't have gotten near one of them to be tested in the first place(hell he wouldn't even have been given a form to fill in for the test for the test). Llyod needed a pilot so he got a quick check and OMFG you have teh Hax skills you must pilot. Also no Lelouch no trouble in Shinjuku ghetto and no need for it to be deployed in the first place.
Pretty much, and without Lelouch he would never have become one of the Rounds (since he'd never be able to bargain with the Emperor), nor would he have had the chance to become the 'White Reaper,' since he would never have been able to fight in Europe.
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