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Old 2008-06-10, 12:13   Link #1461
Airi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotobrastos View Post
Pretty much, and without Lelouch he would never have become one of the Rounds
That's a pretty silly discussion. Episode 1, season 1: Without Suzaku, Lelouch would be dead now.
They both saved each other's lives on several occasions. What's the point in discussing it any further?

Last edited by Airi; 2008-06-10 at 13:49.
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Old 2008-06-10, 12:25   Link #1462
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airi View Post
That's a pretty silly discussion. Episode 1, season 1: Without Suzaku, Lelouch would be dead now.
They both saved each other's lives on several occasions. What's the point in discussing it any further?
There's a high chance that Lelouch and Nunnally would've been killed had Japan endorsed a fight to the death as well.

But that's just how silly this argument is getting.
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Old 2008-06-10, 12:28   Link #1463
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
He wouldn't have been selected. Numbers can't be pilots so he wouldn't have gotten near one of them to be tested in the first place(hell he wouldn't even have been given a form to fill in for the test for the test). Llyod needed a pilot so he got a quick check and OMFG you have teh Hax skills you must pilot. Also no Lelouch no trouble in Shinjuku ghetto and no need for it to be deployed in the first place.
Numbers can't be pilots but the things is all the noble Knights refused to pilot Lancelot. Lloyd was pretty much forced to look through the ranks of honourary Britannians, since they were the only one's both dispensable enough and willing. I very much doubt there is any other Honourary Britannian who can match Suzaku's skills and abilities, so he would have gotten there eventually.

As for Shinjuku, once again, there are always other opportunities. Kallen's group was very clearly not the only terrorist group out there, right? All we need is Lloyd to continue searching through Honourary Britannian ranks for a pilot for Lancelot, Suzaku to continue to be the best candidate for it, and terrorist attacks like the hotel hijacking in episode 8 to keep happening, and Suzaku would have managed to get noticed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotobrastos View Post
Pretty much, and without Lelouch he would never have become one of the Rounds (since he'd never be able to bargain with the Emperor), nor would he have had the chance to become the 'White Reaper,' since he would never have been able to fight in Europe.
Bargaining with the Emperor isn't the only way to become a Rounds, and he wouldn't have gotten there if he didn't have the skills required in the first place. Even without being a Rounds, he would be working as the direct subordinate of 2nd Prince Schniezel, Prime Minister of Britannia and the commander for the European Theatre. We have seen that Schniezel is not one to hold petty prejudices so Suzaku would have gotten ample recognition for his abilities and provided plenty of opportunities to show his merit in Europe.

And that's not even to say, that without Zero Euphemia wouldn't be dead! Maybe without Clovis dying it would have taken much longer for them to meet (or not--Cornelia has complained about Clovis's weakness and incompetence already so it wouldn't be surprising if she had moved in to help anyway) but there still would have been someone out there who could understand him and believe in him and share his dream. Then Suzaku wouldn't need to be a Rounds, he could just be the knight of a princess who 'had an idea while in high school'.

...

You guys, it's pretty simple. Both Suzaku's and Lelouch's existance helped each other out but they both still possess the skills and motivations to make a difference individually. There is ample evidence that Suzaku is extraordinary, that he has his own strengths and a potential connection to geass that there is no doubt that something would have happened with Suzaku down the road, with or without Zero. I don't know much about it, but why don't you try reading Suzaku of the Counterattack to try to see things from his perspective.

edit: lol, I guess Airi and SoldierofDarkness are better debaters than me. They're right, this is pretty much a ridiculous discussion and I shouldn't have bothered with such trollish posts.
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Old 2008-06-10, 12:30   Link #1464
ZeroSama
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What do you expect when one group of fanboys/girls encounter another group on the opposite side of the road? A thoughtful and meaningful discussion?
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Old 2008-06-10, 12:33   Link #1465
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And Sol i have read it. It was crap just like the manga of Lelouch of the rebellion. Nightmare of Nunnally was the best of all 3 for the simple fact it wasn't aimed at 11 year olds.
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Old 2008-06-10, 14:08   Link #1466
Airi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
What do you expect when one group of fanboys/girls encounter another group on the opposite side of the road? A thoughtful and meaningful discussion?
Why not? In this thread there are interesting discussions about Suzaku !
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Old 2008-06-10, 15:13   Link #1467
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
There's a high chance that Lelouch and Nunnally would've been killed had Japan endorsed a fight to the death as well.

But that's just how silly this argument is getting.
Yea, Japan would have been obliterated off the map.
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Old 2008-06-10, 15:44   Link #1468
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Yea, Japan would have been obliterated off the map.
Better to have died on their feet then to be living on their Knees.

As for Suzaku, for a guy who claims he doesn't like killing he sure as hell kills a lot of people...aka hypocrite. Killing his own father (patricide) just because of the fact that he doesn't want to die...aka pathetic. Selling out his own best friend (not to mention that this best friend saved his life) just so that he can be promoted...aka backstabber.

At least Lelouch is faithfully pursuing his goal of creating a world where the oppression of Britannia doesn't exist and where his sister can live in peace. On the other hand Suzaku spent the entire first season following orders (blindly) without trying to make even the slightest change that he wanted to do.
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Old 2008-06-10, 15:49   Link #1469
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Better to have died on their feet then to be living on their Knees.
Depends on how you think.

Would you rather die meaningless (Britannians will get the sakuradite anyways) or be alive as a slave/a number (at least you may still have a future)?

Like Lulu, the Japanese's weakness was always their pride.

Then Britannian pierced through and broke them of their illusion of invincibility. Better be crushed sooner than later.

"there is no winner in a war, just 1 side that loses more than the other side"
quoted from a novel

PS: Please PM me for any ideas for Frames or Geass powers for a fanfiction I am writing.

EDIT: yes, Suzaku may be a hypocrite, but he believes that he is fighting for the common good in his own way. There is no "right" way, much like Lelouch (this is not right either since he killed countless Britannians civilians, soldiers and manipulated the Japanese to be his army he doesn't care for them, they are just pawns.)

As for the backstabbing, analyse this. If you had a friend who was responsible for killing your family and wants to rob you of your house. Would you go to the police and turn him in?

I am actually surprised that Suzaku didn't kill Lulu at end of season 1.
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Old 2008-06-10, 15:56   Link #1470
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
Depends on how you think.

Would you rather die meaningless (Britannians will get the sakuradite anyways) or be alive as a slave/a number (at least you may still have a future)?

Like Lulu, the Japanese's weakness was always their pride.

Then Britannian pierced through and broke them of their illusion of invincibility. Better be crushed sooner than later.

"there is no winner in a war, just 1 side that loses more than the other side"
quoted from a novel

PS: Please PM me for any ideas for Frames or Geass powers for a fanfiction I am writing.

The dead don't have to worry about who gets what, they are at peace.

"Few have the strength to risk death for the pride and respect that humans deserve. Because you do not need pride or respect just to stay alive…like dogs.

Humans are weak against terrorism and violence, and under such control their only desire is to survive no matter what. They lose all pride and respect."

PS: Lelouch doesn't say hypocritical crap like "please surrender, i don't want to kill" and then kills anyway (like Suzaku did in R2 against the EU forces). Lelouch is honest about what he does and many of his own Black Knight members know he is willing to sacrifice anyone if needed. He may be cold and callous but at least he is honest about his methods.
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Old 2008-06-10, 15:59   Link #1471
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
The dead don't have to worry about who gets what, they are at peace.

"Few have the strength to risk death for the pride and respect that humans deserve. Because you do not need pride or respect just to stay alive…like dogs.

Humans are weak against terrorism and violence, and under such control their only desire is to survive no matter what. They lose all pride and respect."

True about that. Well humans are still animals.

But still, I believe both Lulu and Suzaku are both fighting for lost causes.

Suzaku wants to change people from the inside. (won't work)
Lulu wants a peaceful world (won't work unless he Geassed everyone or kills everyone and rules the world with himself as Adam and Nunnaly as Eve.)

I am beginning to think that Charles allowed Lulu to live because he knows that Lelouch is unconsciously following his footsteps.
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:08   Link #1472
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Better to have died on their feet then to be living on their Knees.

As for Suzaku, for a guy who claims he doesn't like killing he sure as hell kills a lot of people...aka hypocrite. Killing his own father (patricide) just because of the fact that he doesn't want to die...aka pathetic. Selling out his own best friend (not to mention that this best friend saved his life) just so that he can be promoted...aka backstabber.

At least Lelouch is faithfully pursuing his goal of creating a world where the oppression of Britannia doesn't exist and where his sister can live in peace. On the other hand Suzaku spent the entire first season following orders (blindly) without trying to make even the slightest change that he wanted to do.
Oh lord the point I was making was to show just how silly the argument was getting with the "Without Lelouch...suzaku wouldn't be where he is and vice versa."

As for the backstabbing part, do I remind you that Lelouch "techincally" betrayed Suzaku in turning Euphie into a massacre princess?
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:10   Link #1473
orangejuicetang
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If people believed that dying would be better than living like that, then, as much as I dislike saying this, but what's stopping them from killing themselves? I mean, I'm pretty sure that Britannians won't going out of thier way to make sure that the Japanese aren't commiting sucicide.
PS. I don't see what's so honest about planting a bomb on a group's ship, denoatating the bomb, lying about the the explosion and using the death of the group from that bomb to further your own goals.
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:12   Link #1474
Silver Soul
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Both of their ideals seem righteous but in the end there will still be racism and hate throughout the world regardless who wins in the end.
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:14   Link #1475
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
If people believed that dying would be better than living like that, then, as much as I dislike saying this, but what's stopping them from killing themselves? I mean, I'm pretty sure that Britannians won't going out of thier way to make sure that the Japanese aren't commiting sucicide.
PS. I don't see what's so honest about planting a bomb on a group's ship, denoatating the bomb, lying about the the explosion and using the death of the group from that bomb to further your own goals.
Trust me, many people will disagree with you on that point
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:15   Link #1476
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
Both of their ideals seem righteous but in the end there will still be racism and hate throughout the world regardless who wins in the end.
"As long as humanity lives, there will always be conflicts"

Quoted from GW endless waltz.

EDIT: Actually Suzaku said, "Surrender, I don't want to fight (not kill)" but war is all about taking lives.

It can't be said that either Lulu/Suzaku are righteous. Lulu is also a hypocrite, how can you achieve a peaceful world through violence? (well he succeeded in my fanfiction )
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:18   Link #1477
Silver Soul
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Oh lord the point I was making was to show just how silly the argument was getting with the "Without Lelouch...suzaku wouldn't be where he is and vice versa."

As for the backstabbing part, do I remind you that Lelouch "techincally" betrayed Suzaku in turning Euphie into a massacre princess?
At least someone has the sense to bring that up, regardless of the fact if it wasn't intentional, why the hell would he make a joke like that for the cause he's fighting against and so what if he took responsibility he still took advantage of the situation to make him look like the hero.
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:21   Link #1478
blitz1/2
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At least someone has the sense to bring that up, regardless of the fact if it wasn't intentional, why the hell would he make a joke like that for the cause he's fighting against and so what if he took responsibility he still took advantage of the situation to make him look like the hero.
Actually he didn't even take responsibility.

I didn't see him apologising to Suzaku for "accidentally" geassing her. But rather he said "Euphemia happily massacred Japanese and yet for that woman..."

If this is his version of taking responsibility, well it's a bad joke.
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:21   Link #1479
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
If people believed that dying would be better than living like that, then, as much as I dislike saying this, but what's stopping them from killing themselves? I mean, I'm pretty sure that Britannians won't going out of thier way to make sure that the Japanese aren't commiting sucicide.
PS. I don't see what's so honest about planting a bomb on a group's ship, denoatating the bomb, lying about the the explosion and using the death of the group from that bomb to further your own goals.
Yep Lelouch 'denoatated' the bomb and killed members of the japan liberation front. In war people die and you use any and all means necessary to reach your objective. And Lelouch is honest about it, he doesn't give or make any excuses...look at how he responded after he freed the BK members in R2? He just coldly told them that it was all part of the plan to gain victory, he didn't go make up excuses.

I'm not talking about japanese 'commiting sucicide' for no reason, they should fight to the death. After all even in real life thats why the US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, because they feared the ferocity of the Japanese warrior spirit.

Ahh but Euphemia was geassed by accident, not on purpose. Hence the only way to stop her was to kill her, otherwise she would've ended up killing millions of Japanese. And Lelouch decided if he had to kill his own half sister, then he might as well use her 'accidental' genocidal actions to his advantage. Strategies and tactics of war means using anything to your advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
It can't be said that either Lulu/Suzaku are righteous. Lulu is also a hypocrite, how can you achieve a peaceful world through violence? (well he succeeded in my fanfiction )
Violence and warfare has solved more problems in history than any other method. Look at the recent examples: WWI and WWII, it was force, violence and war that stopped Hitler. Not diplomacy or politics.
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Old 2008-06-10, 16:22   Link #1480
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Yep Lelouch 'denoatated' the bomb and killed members of the japan liberation front. In war people die and you use any and all means necessary to reach your objective. And Lelouch is honest about it, he doesn't give or make any excuses...look at how he responded after he freed the BK members in R2? He just coldly told them that it was all part of the plan to gain victory, he didn't go make up excuses.

I'm not talking about japanese 'commiting sucicide' for no reason, they should fight to the death. After all even in real life thats why the US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, because they feared the ferocity of the Japanese warrior spirit.

Ahh but Euphemia was geassed by accident, not on purpose. Hence the only way to stop her was to kill her, otherwise she would've ended up killing millions of Japanese. And Lelouch decided if he had to kill his own half sister, then he might as well use her 'accidental' genocidal actions to his advantage. Strategies and tactics of war means using anything to your advantage.

But what you're saying is that he is justified no matter what crimes he is commiting against humanity.
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