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Old 2008-06-12, 22:00   Link #1601
Dann of Thursday
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If you mean Marianne and C.C. then yes, I could see Lelouch and Suzaku fighting against them.
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Old 2008-06-13, 02:57   Link #1602
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Astrana View Post
lol, all cool.
but still comes to the most basic,

Suzaku betrayed Lelouch
That gave me enough reason to hate him.
Good enough reason for me.

And for the people who thinks Lelouch is evil for having considered geassing Euphemia into shooting him so that she would lose all credibility, well thats just something what any good military commander would do...formulate plans and counter plans.

Even if you ally with someone to destroy a common enemy, no matter how much your ally has sworn friendship and loyalty to you, it is always prudent to prepare for any treachery from your ally. That's what Lelouch was doing, he was planning ahead.

Last edited by Dynastya; 2008-06-13 at 03:10.
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Old 2008-06-13, 03:04   Link #1603
Aquaman OS
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It's Lelouch's fault for acting all shady and hiding behind the Zero persona. If he'd just taken his mask off after saving Suzaku from Jeremiah and said "Hey it's me, I want to stop Britannia to make the world safer for Nunnally. Won't you join me old buddy old pal? There's nothing we can't do together." Suzaku might have considered joining up.

Instead he kept the mask of Zero who looks suspicious as hell. I wouldn't trust him either. By the time he tried to play the friend card it was already too late.
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Old 2008-06-13, 03:15   Link #1604
Dynastya
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Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
Excuse me did you say Zero's supporters are also intelligible and rational because if the Black Rebellion taught us anything is that they're no different then the Britainnians when it comes to meaningless killing, hell Tamaki was about to freaking kill the student council and from what I've seen its not their fault that they were born Britainian plus they were never part of this scrabble they were just going bout their normal lives untill the s**t hit the fan, not only that Diethard and Lakashata don't seem to give a damn they were just bored with their lives being Britainnians, everyone in the Black Knights along with the million or so civilians seem to be blind in their ambition and they believe Zero to be the one to guide them to their salvation not knowing the big picture instore for them. I also have to question your morality either you seriously need to stop taking this show too seriously and get out of your house for once or you are in dire need of some soul searching because what seems honorable in the eyes of millions in Code Geass is not ethical in real life.
Morality and ethics is a very very Relative concept. Lets look at an example, suppose you were in a back during a bank robbery and you + several other innocent people were held hostage. And outside the bank the police has surrounded the place so in order to threaten the police the robbers take you and point a gun at your head.

What do you think is going on in the minds of the other hostages who are sitting in a corner as you are standing in the front with a gun point to your head?

Do you think anyone of the other hostages are thinking of a way to try and save you? NO! All they are thinking about is how glad they are that it wasn't them who has a gun to their head with a very high risk of being killed. They are only thinking about themselves. While by your concept of morality and ethics they should be thinking about trying to find a way to prevent your death, but they aren't.


How many times in history has diplomacy, political power, and all the other peaceful means have achieved in solving situations which could've escalated into a battlefield?

Now compare that number to the number of times where wars, the use of force and violence has solved problems and punished those who committed crimes?

The reality of this world is force and violence solves more problems than diplomacy (and diplomacy is just another way of saying selling out your ideals to compromise with the terms of your enemies). Look at how the world is tolerating the existence of totalitarian governments? Look at the governments/groups which keep violating human rights (the so called people's republic of china, sudan, burma, the taliban, etc) because the world would rather compromise with them than risk death to seek the justice and punishment that these criminals deserve.
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Old 2008-06-13, 04:22   Link #1605
Astrana
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
It's Lelouch's fault for acting all shady and hiding behind the Zero persona. If he'd just taken his mask off after saving Suzaku from Jeremiah and said "Hey it's me, I want to stop Britannia to make the world safer for Nunnally. Won't you join me old buddy old pal? There's nothing we can't do together." Suzaku might have considered joining up.

Instead he kept the mask of Zero who looks suspicious as hell. I wouldn't trust him either. By the time he tried to play the friend card it was already too late.
nope, I think suzaku would still deny Lelouch's offer and telling Lelouch wrong method will not achieve anything...
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Old 2008-06-13, 04:47   Link #1606
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And for the people who thinks Lelouch is evil for having considered geassing Euphemia into shooting him so that she would lose all credibility, well thats just something what any good military commander would do...formulate plans and counter plans.

Even if you ally with someone to destroy a common enemy, no matter how much your ally has sworn friendship and loyalty to you, it is always prudent to prepare for any treachery from your ally. That's what Lelouch was doing, he was planning ahead.
The fact is he betrayed the 2 people that are probably the second and third most important to him (his mother is dead so I won't count her) beside his sister.If that is not evil then i don't know what is. They are not stranger,they are more or less family.
Sad thing that people only remember how Suzaku traded LL for a KoR seat but not how LL intended to trade both Euphie and Suzaku for a little more popularity!!

Suzaku and Lelouch betrayed each other,true.But to me Suzaku had a better reason to do it than LL.

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Morality and ethics is a very very Relative concept
Are you saying that what the Japanese were doing during the Black rebellion was not wrong? Killing Britania's soldiers is one thing but killing their unarmed women and children

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Originally Posted by Astrana View Post
nope, I think suzaku would still deny Lelouch's offer and telling Lelouch wrong method will not achieve anything...
Maybe you think so because you'd like to deny all of Suzaku good trails so that you can keep bashing
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Old 2008-06-13, 07:45   Link #1607
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Originally Posted by Dynastya View Post
Good enough reason for me.
Even if you ally with someone to destroy a common enemy, no matter how much your ally has sworn friendship and loyalty to you, it is always prudent to prepare for any treachery from your ally. That's what Lelouch was doing, he was planning ahead.
with your reasoning, lelouch should not be mad at suzaku for betraying him...i love how LL fanboys damn suzaku for the same things they praise LL for
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Old 2008-06-13, 07:55   Link #1608
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nope, I think suzaku would still deny Lelouch's offer and telling Lelouch wrong method will not achieve anything...
Now thats just wrong. Suzaku had absolute faith in Lulu at the start going as far as to disobey orders to kill Lulu(something we have never seen him do before unless geassed). Hell i thought another part of the reason he killed his father was because he was about to go and kill Lulu and Nunnally.
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Old 2008-06-13, 08:08   Link #1609
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Now thats just wrong. Suzaku had absolute faith in Lulu at the start going as far as to disobey orders to kill Lulu(something we have never seen him do before unless geassed). Hell i thought another part of the reason he killed his father was because he was about to go and kill Lulu and Nunnally.
I wouldn't go there, pal. People are going to point out that Suzaku did this just so he could die, he obviously never had noble intentions to begin with.

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i love how LL fanboys damn suzaku for the same things they praise LL for
That's pretty much how things work here, unfortunately.

I can sort of see why Lelouch fanboys would hate Suzaku so much, though. Of course if you support the rebellion with all your might, it must be painful to watch Suzaku mess up Zero's plans and question his methods. Hence the mindless hate for "betraying" Lelouch.

But I'd rather be objective and enjoy my show.
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Old 2008-06-13, 08:20   Link #1610
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
with your reasoning, lelouch should not be mad at suzaku for betraying him...i love how LL fanboys damn suzaku for the same things they praise LL for
Who said anything about LULU being mad?
He certainly isn't mad about it.

But that doesn't mean Lulu-supporters can't be mad. We like Lulu for being such a nice guy, but that doesn't mean we aren't frustrated at how forgiving he can be.
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Old 2008-06-13, 08:55   Link #1611
canis
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I don't think it'll get us anywhere if we start nitpicking who is more or less evil...
Zero/Lelouche ordered the suicide of soldiers, had them kill each other, caused the slaughter of a stadium full of Japanese (even if it wasn't intentional), covered up the accident as Euphemia's betrayal to further his plans...
Suzaku caused the death of his landsmen through fighting and death sentences and decided to give up his friend to the emperor for status...
It's all about opinion... Both of them have blood stained hands as they go about their paths.

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wouldn't go there, pal. People are going to point out that Suzaku did this just so he could die, he obviously never had noble intentions to begin with.
I don't think anybody could argue, that his guilt drove him to the point that he saw death as the only way to repent for his sins and wished for it, but I can't see how it affects his intentions. I guess he hoped while he still was alive, he could make a difference...
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Old 2008-06-13, 09:56   Link #1612
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Originally Posted by canis View Post
I don't think anybody could argue, that his guilt drove him to the point that he saw death as the only way to repent for his sins and wished for it, but I can't see how it affects his intentions. I guess he hoped while he still was alive, he could make a difference...
No. Suzaku had no intention of making a difference because you can't make a difference by throwing your life away. Regardless of what Suzaku is working for at the moment, it is an undeniable FACT that back when he first refused to shoot Lulu in episode 1, it was due to intentional desire to die rather than any noble interests.
That was the reason a supposed pacifist ended up in the army; Suzaku don't intend to fight for Britannia for very long before he dies.

"make a difference" and "die" are opposing goals. In fact, to have "die" as a goal is already messed up to begin with.
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Old 2008-06-13, 10:40   Link #1613
Eliarine
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Told you so.
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Old 2008-06-13, 10:43   Link #1614
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
Told you so.
Keep in mind that I am not saying that is what Suzaku want now. The evidence available can only confirm what Suzaku was working for in the past, but as for the current time? We will see.
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Old 2008-06-13, 10:47   Link #1615
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Keep in mind that I am not saying that is what Suzaku want now. The evidence available can only confirm what Suzaku was working for in the past, but as for the current time? We will see.
Well, considering the geass-command he has on him, he now seems to have no other choice than to try and truly change things, not just wish for death - because he can no longer deliberately try to get killed off.
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Old 2008-06-13, 10:52   Link #1616
Eliarine
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Keep in mind that I am not saying that is what Suzaku want now. The evidence available can only confirm what Suzaku was working for in the past, but as for the current time? We will see.
But you are still arguing that Suzaku refused to kill Lelouch just so he could die back in season 1. And I still think you're oversimplifying things.
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Old 2008-06-13, 10:58   Link #1617
canis
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
No. Suzaku had no intention of making a difference because you can't make a difference by throwing your life away. Regardless of what Suzaku is working for at the moment, it is an undeniable FACT that back when he first refused to shoot Lulu in episode 1, it was due to intentional desire to die rather than any noble interests.
That was the reason a supposed pacifist ended up in the army; Suzaku don't intend to fight for Britannia for very long before he dies.

"make a difference" and "die" are opposing goals. In fact, to have "die" as a goal is already messed up to begin with.
Did Suzaku ever say he was a pacifist (If he did I honestly don't remember it)?
He claimed after he killed his father, to never again strive for power for himself but for the sake of others. Later he joined the army to change Britannia from within.
If he wanted to die so badly, he could have just committed suicide. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I have the impression that in Japan there is still some acceptance for this choice (or at least in Code Geass some soldiers seem to and Suzaku definitely was influenced by that).
He also was aware that he had become a soldier (he referred to himself as such on various occasions) and knew what it entailed. He displayed a style of fighting that was more aimed for incapacitation than killing but he did kill, so I don't think he deluded himself to think he'd come out clean...
Of course his recklessness was noticed by various characters, but he still thought about others.
Since you brought up the first episode, he also saved a mother with a child falling from a crumbling building and let Zero escape in the process. That wasn't an action fit for suicide was it? And he was concerned with shooting a student, so he was thinking about someone else...
He definitely never made it out of that self-loathing though, not until Euphie came along... If they could have started their project of the Special Administrative Zone of Japan, he'd gradually left that behind I think.
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Old 2008-06-13, 11:03   Link #1618
mangastuff
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
I never do get this. It's ok to do evil things as long as you know you are doing bad things, but its not to unknowingly do bad things even if you have legitimate good intentions?

It's like how in 00 the Meister's get hate for using force for good intentions while Ali is loved despite being an obviously evil murderous selfish bastard, just because he's knows and admits he's a horrible horrible person.

What the hell?
It's simple. When some devil do evil jobs knowingly, I consider him as prepared to be punished if defeated without trying to justify himself. In a way, he fulfills his task as an antagonist character.

When a seemingly "good hero" doing bad things but avoids to admit it, I have the feeling that he is a hypocrite, and I hate hypocrite

I believe in "changing from inside" or "changing in peace" but it should be similar to Gandhi's. Working that loyally for the evil, helping him in his conquer, killing people for him for "good purpose" is something I cann't eat. It's just too hypocritical

Last edited by mangastuff; 2008-06-13 at 11:10. Reason: grammar
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Old 2008-06-13, 11:04   Link #1619
Dann of Thursday
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He can't commit suicide. He needed to do it while trying to help people so that he could make himself feel better. This was the whole point of his personality for a lot of season 1.
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Old 2008-06-13, 11:07   Link #1620
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku View Post
Well, considering the geass-command he has on him, he now seems to have no other choice than to try and truly change things, not just wish for death - because he can no longer deliberately try to get killed off.
That may be, but a change for better or worse? And for what purpose?

Since Suzaku is the foil instead of a true main character, we won't know for a while yet. Indeed, the only reason we knew about the old Suzaku was because of Mao. (It is confirmed by Sunrise that Mao didn't lie about any of his mind-readings. The fact that he showed the inside of Suzaku's mind also appear to be Mao's chief purpose in the plot.

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But you are still arguing that Suzaku refused to kill Lelouch just so he could die back in season 1. And I still think you're oversimplifying things.
Note that Suzaku stood there and allowed his superior to shoot him, when his physical skills could have easily prevented it. If Lulu didn't have a Geass he would have still died right after Suzaku got shot.
That's why Suzaku's actions are strange; he could have disamed his superior and help his friend escape, but that would have been "wrong" because it is against Britannian military law. The right thing, according to Suzaku, is to be shoot dead like a good Britannian for disobeying orders. The fact that a dead Suzaku would mean Lulu will die soon after didn't seem to be a problem to him.
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