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Old 2008-04-23, 16:35   Link #261
KrimzonStriker
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Hey, if he can grow to love a slightly unstable fake brother whose been lying and spying on him this whole time while also planning to eventually kill him I think Lelouch can grow to love just about anyone
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:36   Link #262
Dann of Thursday
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Yeah, but Rollo is just as dependent and needy as Nunnally was sometimes, though Rollo is much more obvious with his darker side than Nunnally ever was. Lelouch doesn't have a clue about that side of Nunnally, does he?
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:38   Link #263
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Or maybe he just doesn't let himself see it? Though I wonder if wanting to marry her off to Suzaku and eventually planning to leave her in order to ensure her perfect world might not be an indication that he had an indication?
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:42   Link #264
Dann of Thursday
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That could be it. I don't think he wants to see her other than his innocent little sister though I did see one or two times where he seemed to acknowledge that she would have to grow up.
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:44   Link #265
ashlay
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yeah, Lelouch knows that Nunnally isn't well. He wouldn't have bothered going to Ashford Academy in the first place if he hadn't known about and wanted to try and make her mental state better.

Still, he may just ignore some of the things he sees because he's a brother who will always love Nunnally unconditionally.
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:50   Link #266
Dann of Thursday
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I suppose he must have been trying to get her better adjusted to the world and such after the traumatic experiance she had. He probably also wanted to gradually get her less dependent on him and have her become more independent, though there are times where it doesn't seem like he lets her do anything herself.
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:52   Link #267
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For rather obvious reasons, he can't help but worry which is why he wanted a Knight to eventually ensure her protection while giving her room to grow, which would also happen when she found a partner instead of a brother who she looks up to so dearly for the answer to everything and one who would do anything to see her happy, even if it involves removing himself from the picture.
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:55   Link #268
Dann of Thursday
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Too bad he seems to have been rather unsuccessful in that regard. In any case, they are going to have to address this issue at some point with the two of them and I am rather worried about what may happen.
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:56   Link #269
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That's what makes Code Geass so good Dann, it always has you on the edge of your seats
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:57   Link #270
Dann of Thursday
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I wouldn't say that this paticular matter has me on the edge of my seat. I am curious if we are suddenly going to see a much darker Nunnally and how Lelouch would react to it.
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Old 2008-04-23, 23:44   Link #271
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You know, on the topic of Lelouch not 'getting' women...I don't buy it. Lelouch is an intelligent boy, and I'm sure he is perfectly aware of the various courtship conventions of his time. He simply has other priorities.

The main point most people have in support of this idea is Lelouch's lack of reaction in various awkward situations. I really don't know what people want to see: do they want him to be embarassed, aroused, apologetic, charmingly romantic, what? The thing about courtship is, you don't have to make it blatant at every turn that you're romantically interested in someone. Women in general can usually guess, and if they actually like you back, then it actually really sucks to ruin all the excitement for them by spoiling them with your intentions. Lelouch's straight-facedness actually makes him very potent romantically: it tells women that they can't control him using their sexuality, and that makes him intriguing. Even better, that intrigue is justified--Lelouch isn't pretending to not be affected by women, it's actually internalized; the way he's been exposed to family, friendship, authority, and justice, he knows that there's more to life than just finding a mate.

So even if he's not doing it on purpose right now, there isn't any basis for calling him 'clueless'. Like Lloyd, at the very least Lelouch must possess 'the basic concept', so once he gets the rest of his life sorted out there's no reason he couldn't go about applying it like any other person. The difference would be, however, that even then, Lelouch would be in control of himself and his emotions and manage to keep a perspective about what's important in life.
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Old 2008-04-24, 00:06   Link #272
ashlay
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Lelouch simply is self-sacrificing by nature, regardless of what the situation is. He's not the kind of person who would ever try to force his emotions onto people he cares about. In other words, Lelouch doesn't take the initiative in any romantic situations because he considers it wrong to seek happiness for himself to the possible detriment of the happiness of someone he cares about.

However, when it's clear to Lelouch that any girl he cares about is in need of emotional support, he quickly transforms into the charming prince, (with ever greater success as the story has continued. >_>) because, again, Lelouch's priority is the happiness of the people close to him first and foremost, regardless of his own emotional state.


So, to say Lelouch is clueless might not be the best way of putting it, but I wouldn't necessarily say he has priorities above romance. He simply prioritizes the people close to him over himself, but nothing about that doesn't allow for romance under the correct conditions.
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Old 2008-04-24, 00:33   Link #273
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He's just not interested, period
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Old 2008-04-24, 01:10   Link #274
Sol Falling
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hmm, I'll have to think about that. You have a point about Lelouch's self-sacrificing nature, but I don't know if that would actually extend so far that he would hold himself back from seeking happiness. As far as romantic initiative goes, Lelouch is a clever man. Unless you're talking about him being worried that somebody who was interested in him would have their feelings hurt if he pursued the woman he wanted, I think Lelouch would be able to intrigue a girl he was interested in enough that 'forcing' his emotions onto them wouldn't be an issue.

The point I was originally making, though, was more about Lelouch's standards. Lelouch isn't actively looking for romance right now, and even if he were, he would be looking for something beyond mere sexual attraction or a superficial idealization of his character. As such, there isn't any reason for him to react when he stumbles across those aspects of various women.

edit:

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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
He's just not interested, period
Yeah, pretty much.
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Old 2008-04-24, 01:14   Link #275
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Oh he holds himself back from seeking happiness quite a lot, otherwise he wouldn't have a self-sacrificing nature now would he? Euphie, Shirely, Nunnally, a willingness to leave everything behind in order to protect his friends, placing himself in harms way over simply letting his subordinates handle things, it's a prevailing theme with him as far as I can tell... plus I listened to a Sound Episode where he was completely unaware that half his school and the lunch lady had a crush on him and that all he did was say it was troubling >_>
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Old 2008-04-24, 01:20   Link #276
ashlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
hmm, I'll have to think about that. You have a point about Lelouch's self-sacrificing nature, but I don't know if that would actually extend so far that he would hold himself back from seeking happiness. As far as romantic initiative goes, Lelouch is a clever man. Unless you're talking about him being worried that somebody who was interested in him would have their feelings hurt if he pursued the woman he wanted, I think Lelouch would be able to intrigue a girl he was interested in enough that 'forcing' his emotions onto them wouldn't be an issue.

The point I was originally making, though, was more about Lelouch's standards. Lelouch isn't actively looking for romance right now, and even if he were, he would be looking for something beyond mere sexual attraction or a superficial idealization of his character. As such, there isn't any reason for him to react when he stumbles across those aspects of various women.
Ah, but to Lelouch, that would be manipulating his loved ones for his own benefit. And this is Lelouch after all, he couldn't even forgive himself for geassing Suzaku when it saved the latters life. >_>

And sure, I agree that Lelouch cares more about the person than the body. But again, I think that ties back into Lelouch putting others before himself. You make someone feel better by worrying about them, not their beautifully shaped curves.
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Old 2008-04-24, 01:38   Link #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Oh he holds himself back from seeking happiness quite a lot, otherwise he wouldn't have a self-sacrificing nature now would he? Euphie, Shirely, Nunnally, a willingness to leave everything behind in order to protect his friends, placing himself in harms way over simply letting his subordinates handle things, it's a prevailing theme with him as far as I can tell... plus I listened to a Sound Episode where he was completely unaware that half his school and the lunch lady had a crush on him and that all he did was say it was troubling >_>
Hmm, the only one of those I can really see as Lelouch not seeking happiness is with Shirley. With Euphie and Nunally, basically, their happiness is his happiness (i.e. Lelouch is happy when Nunally is happy, and Euphie is happy when Nunally is happy so Lelouch is happy when Euphie is happy). I can't really see how Lelouch was giving up his own happiness for their sakes in those cases.

I agree that Lelouch is very self-sacrificing, to the extent that he will take on the burdens and sins of others. That doesn't really preclude pursuing his own happiness as well, though.

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Ah, but to Lelouch, that would be manipulating his loved ones for his own benefit. And this is Lelouch after all, he couldn't even forgive himself for geassing Suzaku when it saved the latters life. >_>
:P Geass is absolute, so I can see why Lelouch would have some issues with using it to make someone he cared for do something. In terms of getting someone interested in you, though...like Krimson noted, half the school had a crush on Lelouch at some point, so he must have some special charisma. What's so manipulative about showing some of that charisma to his 'loved ones'? It's just revealing another side of himself. Besides, falling in love with Lelouch and then realizing that he loved her back would more likely than not make that 'loved one' happy, right? I don't think Lelouch has such low self-esteem that he would think a relationship with him would make a person unhappy...
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Old 2008-04-24, 01:53   Link #278
KrimzonStriker
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Hmm, the only one of those I can really see as Lelouch not seeking happiness is with Shirley. With Euphie and Nunally, basically, their happiness is his happiness (i.e. Lelouch is happy when Nunally is happy, and Euphie is happy when Nunally is happy so Lelouch is happy when Euphie is happy). I can't really see how Lelouch was giving up his own happiness for their sakes in those cases.

I agree that Lelouch is very self-sacrificing, to the extent that he will take on the burdens and sins of others. That doesn't really preclude pursuing his own happiness as well, though.



:P Geass is absolute, so I can see why Lelouch would have some issues with using it to make someone he cared for do something. In terms of getting someone interested in you, though...like Krimson noted, half the school had a crush on Lelouch at some point, so he must have some special charisma. What's so manipulative about showing some of that charisma to his 'loved ones'? It's just revealing another side of himself. Besides, falling in love with Lelouch and then realizing that he loved her back would more likely than not make that 'loved one' happy, right? I don't think Lelouch has such low self-esteem that he would think a relationship with him would make a person unhappy...

That's a bit contradictory actually, because that is exactly what we are getting at, that he values the happiness of others over his own, which requires more selfishness for himself rather then for others wouldn't you agree? Which is basically to say he's not the type to go out looking for a girl-friend for his own pleasure or benefit of something like that, which basically means he doesn't pursue the idea at all really.

Taking on sins and burdens does not leave much room for ones own happiness last I checked, give me an instance where he thought of himself and solely for himself? Did he ever refuse bearing the responsibility? No he doesn't, he soaks it up like a sponge instead, which pretty much indicates to me anyway, that he puts more value on the needs of others rather then his own.

Yeah, uhmm not to doubt Lelouch's charisma but like I also indicated he doesn't really use it at all for that intent. What's the point of having it if you're not interested in using or pursuing it? And as for the whole "loving her back would make her happy and makes him happy etc." I will turn to Nunnally. Note that she is depressed that he doesn't spend as much time with her, and yet he continues to press on with his agenda of achieving an overall result that he believes will make her happy and allow her to prosper despite the strain it puts on their relationship and the obvious strain in puts on him because this happy world wasn't going to run itself which is why he knew eventually he would no longer be with her one day... so yeah, basically Lelouch evaluates things above simply loving someone in bringing them happiness, and who can blame him when only having love didn't spare them the hardships and tragedies they had to endure when they were kids? >_>
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Old 2008-04-24, 02:07   Link #279
Sol Falling
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Well, this is getting a bit convoluted. Hm...

See, I agree that Lelouch isn't pursuing a girlfriend. However, I think the main reason that Lelouch isn't pursuing a girlfriend is because he's too busy pursuing other goals. What you guys seem to be saying is that Lelouch might want a girlfriend, but is holding himself back. Furthermore, you guys are saying that the reason he is holding himself back isn't even because of his circumstances (i.e. it'd be too dangerous for her to be involved with him), but because he doesn't believe in making himself happy. That's just...a bit wrong, unhealthy, depressing, unrealistic, whatever. Something like that. You know though, now that I think about it, I actually have a quote that proves you guys wrong. It's from C.C.'s epilogue, so I hope you guys can believe it.

"People...Humans...chase after the existence of happiness. What the Britannian youth, Lelouch, wanted...was just a tiny bit of happiness. It's nothing special. At the very least, the spark that triggered his actions, was just a very tiny wish that every human has."

Also, the thing with Lelouch's self-sacrifice is that he doesn't go out looking for sins and burdens. Even though he may take up any that he comes across, Lelouch isn't trying to deliberately punish himself (he also isn't trying to save the world--at the very least, not at the micro level). That is why, once he's finished with everything and is in a less sinful/burdened environment, Lelouch will have room to pursue his own happiness.

I also just have to point out about Lelouch's revenge, as well. Even if revenge doesn't really equate to 'one's own happiness', it's pretty far removed from the idea of self-sacrifice as well.

On Lelouch's charisma (let's just call it 'animal magnetism' to underline the romantic implications), I agree that he doesn't use it and may not even be aware he has it. Still, the reason I brought it up was to say that if Lelouch decided to pursue somebody romantically by revealing this side of him to them, it wouldn't really be manipulation.

And finally, on your evaluation of Nunally. Actually, the fact that Lelouch still maintains his relationship with her even though she gets sad and misses him backs up my point. If Lelouch truly believed his relationship with Nunally was harmful/painful to her, and if Lelouch was truly an entirely self-sacrificial person, he would give her up. If Lelouch actually thought that Nunally would be happier if she didn't miss him all the time, he would try to think up a method to extract himself from her life and then just watch over her from afar. The fact that he doesn't shows that either Lelouch believes that his love for her is enough to cause a net increase in her happiness, or that Lelouch has a little bit of selfishness within him that will choose his own happiness over someone else's.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2008-04-24 at 02:30.
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Old 2008-04-24, 12:12   Link #280
KrimzonStriker
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You're missing the point, those goals of his do involve making other people happy, and by taking on accomplishing those goals he also takes on the burden and the responsibility of them. I also thought that the circumstances of his situation preventing him were blatantly obvious as well, but these circumstances are also of his own creation in many respects and as such ultimately he will hold himself responsible for them. It isn't so much that I don't think he might want to make himself happy, he just never really thinks about it to the point where it seems non-existent.

I think I pointed out already, but for Lelouch ultimately his happiness is the happiness of others, which is what he pursued his agenda and provided the core motivation for his actions.

I'll note that it's not naive to think that by choosing the road he has that he will no doubt run into many burdens and sins, in effect he does seek them out even if that is not his intention it is a consequence he accepts in order to realize his goals. In any event, it isn't so much that he doesn't have the capacity to choose happiness, it's simply that he will always choose the happiness of others over his own and because of that he leaves himself no consideration for himself. We don't know what will happen in the end, but at least to Lelouch this burden of his will probably never be resolved because the USoJ is not going to run itself in order to ensure that peaceful world for Nunnally... so while circumstances may change that and may allow him to one day pursue it, presently it does not and he is not considering it at all, nor planning to incorporate it into his future.

Depends on how you view revenge, in many respects Lelouch is avenging his mother and the tragedy that befell his sister, not a slight on his honor or some pretentious notion as that, and in this case the one who acts on this type of revenge can be argued as doing it for the sake of those who were wronged rather then the sake of oneself. Bottom line, it's probable he's thinking more the sake of his mother and sister then his own satisfaction.

Yeah, well that's a big if, and since he doesn't pursue it even though he has such great charisma and could probably succeed quite easily but has no interest in doing so still makes him an idiot, not an inept idiot but a dense and thick-headed one... >_>

Uhmmm, I think you're missing my point, this relationship is necessary for Nunnally's continued well-being and he values it just as much as she does, but that didn't stop him from eventually planning on cutting it in order to ensure her a peaceful world to live in. So in this respects he is a self-sacrificial person because of that, along with planning to replace himself with someone he believed would be able to watch out for her when he was gone, which is where Suzaku was going to come in. So yes he was planning to extract himself from her life and just watch over her from afar, like I said the USoJ wasn't going to run itself, so thank you for proving my point actually.
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