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Old 2009-01-12, 01:09   Link #3861
azul120
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Lelouch may have made some dishonorable decisions, but he was up against a colossal empire, so at least the way he saw it, he needed to take extreme measures to have a fighting chance.

Most of the geassed people were not quite innocent, and if they were, they most likely weren't done so in a malicious manner, and IIRC the Zero Requiem didn't result in the death of any of his own friends, unless you count Diethard. Not to mention that he thought Nunnally was dead when he started the Requiem, or else he would have likely done something that spared his own life.

And while Suzaku may be the more conscientious, at least during the run of the series, he still isn't free of deceit himself, and by R2 19 all but gives up on acting cavalier.

Last edited by azul120; 2009-01-12 at 02:16.
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Old 2009-01-12, 01:31   Link #3862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Lelouch may have made some dishonorable decisions, but he was up against a colossal empire, so at least the way he saw it, he needed to take extreme measures to have a fighting chance.
Exactly. Lelouch chose to become the necessary evil that was required to eliminate the evil.
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Old 2009-01-12, 06:12   Link #3863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Lelouch may have made some dishonorable decisions, but he was up against a colossal empire, so at least the way he saw it, he needed to take extreme measures to have a fighting chance.

Most of the geassed people were not quite innocent, and if they were, they most likely weren't done so in a malicious manner, and IIRC the Zero Requiem didn't result in the death of any of his own friends, unless you count Diethard. Not to mention that he thought Nunnally was dead when he started the Requiem, or else he would have likely done something that spared his own life.

And while Suzaku may be the more conscientious, at least during the run of the series, he still isn't free of deceit himself, and by R2 19 all but gives up on acting cavalier.
The Britannians where just doing their job, its not their fault that Lelouch has decided they needed to die.

I mean where the people who where killed so that Lelouch could cause the roads to collapse before the Tokyo rebellion evil? Where the guards guarding Nunnaly evil?
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Old 2009-01-12, 06:37   Link #3864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
The Britannians where just doing their job, its not their fault that Lelouch has decided they needed to die.

I mean where the people who where killed so that Lelouch could cause the roads to collapse before the Tokyo rebellion evil? Where the guards guarding Nunnaly evil?
Britannia built their city on top of the ruins of another. Does the inhabitants cared about why it was gone? Part of the reason it collapsed was because the city was sitting on an unstable foundation, of broken masonry and corpses. Perhaps there is an interesting irony in that...

And what was the guards guarding Nunnaly, really guarding against? Why would someone want to kill her? The guards know what kind of people they will be killing, and as guards they made their choice.

Lulu is just doing his job too. Thus, they are even.
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Old 2009-01-13, 02:38   Link #3865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Lelouch may have made some dishonorable decisions, but he was up against a colossal empire, so at least the way he saw it, he needed to take extreme measures to have a fighting chance.

Most of the geassed people were not quite innocent, and if they were, they most likely weren't done so in a malicious manner, and IIRC the Zero Requiem didn't result in the death of any of his own friends, unless you count Diethard.
I didn't mention the Zero Requiem... What about Euphie and Shirley? Weren't their deaths a (although unintentional) consecuence of Lelouch's actions?
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Old 2009-01-13, 03:01   Link #3866
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Originally Posted by Mit Hydeist View Post
I didn't mention the Zero Requiem... What about Euphie and Shirley? Weren't their deaths a (although unintentional) consecuence of Lelouch's actions?
They were accidents, with the Shirley one being even more indirect. (Villetta's a little higher on the causality chain there.) Lelouch was crushed by both deaths.
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Old 2009-01-13, 05:36   Link #3867
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Originally Posted by Mit Hydeist View Post
I didn't mention the Zero Requiem... What about Euphie and Shirley? Weren't their deaths a (although unintentional) consecuence of Lelouch's actions?
One cannot be blamed for accidents. The only way you and I could avoid hurting and killing people unintentionally, is to do nothing at all and die. Doing nothing doesn't make one guiltless; it makes one a coward, preferring to let someone else take the responsibility.

And just to drive the point home, if Lulu did nothing, everyone would be dead at the hands of Charles. The only "good" thing about that outcome, would be that Lulu could claim it "wasn't his fault". That's not Lulu's style. He would be willing to take the risk, and take the blame if it fails.

Lulu did what he had to do, because doing nothing is even worse.
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Old 2009-01-13, 06:42   Link #3868
yezhanquan
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Lelouch: Definitely one of the Woobies of the show. The things which he was forced to accept, I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy. But, he tried his best to manage them, and in the end pulled off a magnificent plan. He definitely had balls. Kudos to that.
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Old 2009-01-13, 12:08   Link #3869
Mit Hydeist
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
They were accidents, with the Shirley one being even more indirect. (Villetta's a little higher on the causality chain there.) Lelouch was crushed by both deaths.
Till I know Lelouch shot Euphie, that makes him directly responsible for her death (the only unintentional action was the accidental influence of the geass). In addition, he got a lot out of her death. Sure he was crushed... but he did use Euphie's death for his own cause. That was mean to Euphie's memory U_U
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Old 2009-01-13, 12:40   Link #3870
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Originally Posted by Mit Hydeist View Post
Till I know Lelouch shot Euphie, that makes him directly responsible for her death (the only unintentional action was the accidental influence of the geass).
Well, what else could he have done?

Quote:
In addition, he got a lot out of her death. Sure he was crushed... but he did use Euphie's death for his own cause. That was mean to Euphie's memory U_U
Lelouch acted claerly more based on logic than on his emotions, yes.
But I liked that.
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Old 2009-01-13, 13:59   Link #3871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit Hydeist View Post
Till I know Lelouch shot Euphie, that makes him directly responsible for her death (the only unintentional action was the accidental influence of the geass). In addition, he got a lot out of her death. Sure he was crushed... but he did use Euphie's death for his own cause. That was mean to Euphie's memory U_U
The point of Lelouch using Euphie's death was that since her way could not work now and that things have degraded to such an extent, that he would not waste her death by moping about it but by using it to do something positive. That is his small way of making it up to Euphie's memory.
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Old 2009-01-13, 14:35   Link #3872
azul120
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Exactly. Besides, what else could he say to the then enraged Japanese public? They wouldn't have bought the notion of Geass to begin with.

Not to mention that barring Euphie, the Britannian Empire was too rotten to begin with, so there would be no one left there to work with at the time.
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Old 2009-01-13, 17:46   Link #3873
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit Hydeist View Post
Till I know Lelouch shot Euphie, that makes him directly responsible for her death (the only unintentional action was the accidental influence of the geass). In addition, he got a lot out of her death. Sure he was crushed... but he did use Euphie's death for his own cause. That was mean to Euphie's memory U_U
As i said in the suzaku thread, Charles and V.V. didn't try to stop Euphie.

But it was all about the story, if Zero hasn't killed euphie, in the end who would has been able to stop charles and v.v. about the Ragnarok ?
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Old 2009-01-13, 20:15   Link #3874
morbosfist
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As i said in the suzaku thread, Charles and V.V. didn't try to stop Euphie.

But it was all about the story, if Zero hasn't killed euphie, in the end who would has been able to stop charles and v.v. about the Ragnarok ?
Look at Charles after the SAZ goes south. He knew Lelouch would screw it up, or at the very least was counting on it. No reason for him to expend the effort when his son can do the work for him.
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Old 2009-01-13, 20:19   Link #3875
Narona
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Look at Charles after the SAZ goes south. He knew Lelouch would screw it up, or at the very least was counting on it. No reason for him to expend the effort when his son can do the work for him.
I don't see charles killing one of his children ^^ He could have killed Schneizel since he knew that Schneizel was dangerous for his plan. He did not.

And about the scene showing him laughing, I am not sure he was already aware of what happened. If being in the SoA can give this power, he would have know everything about lelouch, the BK etc.
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Old 2009-01-13, 20:26   Link #3876
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I don't see charles killing one of his children ^^ He could have killed Schneizel since he knew that Schneizel was dangerous for his plan. He did not.

And about the scene showing him laughing, I am not sure he was already aware of what happened. If being in the SoA can give this power, he would have know everything about lelouch, the BK etc.
I think he was aware. Didn't he say "that fool did it?"
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Old 2009-01-13, 20:26   Link #3877
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I think he was aware. Didn't he say "that fool did it?"
I didn't remember xD, thanks.
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Old 2009-01-13, 21:29   Link #3878
morbosfist
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I don't see charles killing one of his children ^^ He could have killed Schneizel since he knew that Schneizel was dangerous for his plan. He did not.

And about the scene showing him laughing, I am not sure he was already aware of what happened. If being in the SoA can give this power, he would have know everything about lelouch, the BK etc.
Schenizel wasn't a danger to his plan, at least not much of one. He was just ambitious. With Euphy he could have just vetoed the idea or something, but he let Lelouch do the work. Charles wouldn't have to kill either to deal with them.

As for the second underlined part, I'm fairly sure he did know. How else would V.V. know to grab Nunnally?
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Old 2009-01-13, 23:45   Link #3879
youngde
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I think he was aware. Didn't he say "that fool did it?"
This scene confuses the heck out of me to be honest. It makes me think that Charles got a bit of a rewrite between seasons 1 and 2, because even if he and Marianne did put their plan ahead of all else, it's implied that they, at least, cared for Lelouch and Nunnally on some level. Yet, here he is laughing at Lelouch's biggest screw-up, knowing that it will probably scar him for life, and--as near as I can figure--isn't needed for Ragnarok to work. Charles is basically laughing at people dying and his son's suffering purely because he enjoys it; yet second season Charles implies that everything he does has been for some 'higher purpose.' I just don't get it.
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Old 2009-01-14, 00:02   Link #3880
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This scene confuses the heck out of me to be honest. It makes me think that Charles got a bit of a rewrite between seasons 1 and 2, because even if he and Marianne did put their plan ahead of all else, it's implied that they, at least, cared for Lelouch and Nunnally on some level. Yet, here he is laughing at Lelouch's biggest screw-up, knowing that it will probably scar him for life, and--as near as I can figure--isn't needed for Ragnarok to work. Charles is basically laughing at people dying and his son's suffering purely because he enjoys it; yet second season Charles implies that everything he does has been for some 'higher purpose.' I just don't get it.
Honestly I prefered Bat Shit insane Charles compared to I did everything for you loving Family Man Charles.

It just one other reason the entire series went downhill after the FLEIJA destroyed Tokyo.
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