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Old 2009-03-06, 19:41   Link #4021
bladeofdarkness
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he takes over the entire britannian empire in a matter of days
all becouse he doesnt mind massive brainwashing of the army and royal court to be his puppets
thats a matter of morals rather then writing
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Old 2009-03-06, 19:49   Link #4022
azul120
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It was with his method of becoming the focus of all the world's evil and hatred, so that with his demise, they could move beyond it.
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Old 2009-03-06, 20:03   Link #4023
bladeofdarkness
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and that has WHAT to do with it
his actions are still completely immoral
well intentioned, but immoral nonetheless

and that wasnt the point i was trying to make at all
his geass is much stronger then most
and both his parents had geass too
could this mean that he has stronger effinity for it
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Old 2009-03-06, 20:10   Link #4024
morbosfist
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"Stronger" is not the proper word for it. Lelouch's Geass, if anything, is far more restrictive. Rather, it is the most versatile in the options it gives it user.
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Old 2009-03-06, 20:28   Link #4025
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
"Stronger" is not the proper word for it. Lelouch's Geass, if anything, is far more restrictive. Rather, it is the most versatile in the options it gives it user.
Funny, I always thought Lelouch's Geass was very overpowered, compared to the others anyway. I mean, the ability to have a person do anything you want them to? All you need to do is say "obey all my commands" and then you're set.

Mao's and Rolo's are pretty up there too. Mao's ability to read people's minds was a real obstacle for Lelouch and he proved to be a formidable opponent. Rolo's "time freeze" was pretty useful too, though it loses points for stopping his heart. Still, in terms of applicability and variability, I think Lelouch's wins out in usefulness.

And Charles' and Marianne's Geass's were a joke. They weren't Geass's so much as they were plot devices, only useful when the situation demanded it. Oh, and Bismarck's Geass; dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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Old 2009-03-06, 20:34   Link #4026
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Funny, I always thought Lelouch's Geass was very overpowered, compared to the others anyway. I mean, the ability to have a person do anything you want them to? All you need to do is say "obey all my commands" and then you're set.
And that was his Geass-command pretty much in everyone, in the ending episodes, in order to accomplish ZR.
Lelouch held a "semi-moral" ground with Geass, if i can call it like this, giving only one order at a time that would not tie the person more into the consequences. It goes back to what he said Kallen in R2-2, "the heart belongs to you". That applied to a lot of people back then, he did not want, nor needed to make everyone his puppet at that point.

But yes, when ZR kicks in, he throws away this "semi-morality" to gain the results.
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Old 2009-03-06, 20:40   Link #4027
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And that was his Geass-command pretty much in everyone, in the ending episodes, in order to accomplish ZR.
Lelouch held a "semi-moral" ground with Geass, if i can call it like this, giving only one order at a time that would not tie the person more into the consequences. It goes back to what he said Kallen in R2-2, "the heart belongs to you". That applied to a lot of people back then, he did not want, nor needed to make everyone his puppet at that point.

But yes, when ZR kicks in, he throws away this "semi-morality" to gain the results.
It's funny, it was around the time before that episode premiered (20? 21?) that I was thinking to myself "why doesn't Lelouch just tell people 'obey all my orders' instead of these one-time gigs" and no sooner does he start doing it in the final episodes.

But you are right that, at the time, it wasn't practical or ethical for Lelouch to do it (but he could still force them to commit suicide no problem XD), I was just using that as an example to demonstrate it's capabilities.

Last edited by Nobodyman9; 2009-03-06 at 20:54.
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Old 2009-03-06, 20:49   Link #4028
Narona
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But you are right that, at the time, it wasn't practical or ethical for Lelouch to do it (but he could still force them to commit suicide no problem XD), I was just using that as an examplet to demonstrate it's capabilities.
Not in mass, but he did do it to a certain numbers of persons. Like the policeman in ep4 (when he did free ougi and the BK).

Different levels of moral.
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Old 2009-03-08, 17:00   Link #4029
bladeofdarkness
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there is a difference in saying that someone would do a specific task (even if it kills them) to telling someone that from now on they will be your pawns from the rest of their lives and using them as cannon fodder
at least in my book

and while on the subject
i watched the new watchmen movie last night
and from the looks of things lelouch had read the comics
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Old 2009-03-08, 19:14   Link #4030
Bionicman
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and while on the subject
i watched the new watchmen movie last night
and from the looks of things lelouch had read the comics
Indeed. Over the past few days, I was thinking about making a post on how Zero Requiem resembles
Spoiler for Watchmen:
I guess I'd better hurry up.
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Old 2009-03-08, 21:09   Link #4031
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At the very least, Lelouch's immoral actions were means to an end, rather an end themselves.
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Old 2009-03-09, 02:52   Link #4032
bladeofdarkness
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and UN-NEEDED end
he didnt NEED to do all those things
he could have brought peace to the world by having britannia join the UFN for real and just be a good emperor for the rest of his life and show people that its much better to have peace then war
stopping shnizel and the damocle would have been (by default) much easier to achive if he WASNT fighting the OOBK and shnizel AT THE SAME TIME (his action in ep22 insured he would be fighting the OOBK before he ever started to move against shnizel)
and if he wanted a hate figure that the world can lay the blame on - his father fits right in
he chose ZERO-R not becouse it was needed but becouse HE wanted to do it

the ends justify the means only when the ends are in themselves justified
you cant say "i did what i had to do" if you didnt actually HAD to do it

and again that wasnt the point
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Old 2009-03-09, 03:15   Link #4033
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I understand what the point was, and I was arguing against it. Though it's important to state that it was within the intent of the writers to make it as grandiose as possible, rather than sensical.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:20   Link #4034
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That old saying by Lord Acton rings true:"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." What distinguishes Lelouch is the fact that he is aware of it, and in the end chooses to relinquish it, by killing himself, no less. He could very well choose to enslave the world, and I think that he knows that deep within him, that thought is calling out to him.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:22   Link #4035
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and UN-NEEDED end
he didnt NEED to do all those things
he could have brought peace to the world by having britannia join the UFN for real and just be a good emperor for the rest of his life and show people that its much better to have peace then war
stopping shnizel and the damocle would have been (by default) much easier to achive if he WASNT fighting the OOBK and shnizel AT THE SAME TIME (his action in ep22 insured he would be fighting the OOBK before he ever started to move against shnizel)
and if he wanted a hate figure that the world can lay the blame on - his father fits right in
he chose ZERO-R not becouse it was needed but becouse HE wanted to do it

the ends justify the means only when the ends are in themselves justified
you cant say "i did what i had to do" if you didnt actually HAD to do it

and again that wasnt the point
I'm with you Blade. It's been hard for me to see the complete justification for ZR's end lately.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:24   Link #4036
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I'm with you Blade. It's been hard for me to see the complete justification for ZR's end lately.
He's doing it more for himself, I guess. See my previous post on power. The guy really wants to go out with a bang.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:38   Link #4037
azul120
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He did ZR to focus the world's hatred onto himself and take both all of it, along with himself, out of existence. If any of it doesn't make sense, it's the writing.

Here's another thing though, people are creatures of habit. They don't seek change outside of times of crisis (see: the past several years leading up to the election of Obama in a general sense). Hardly anyone in Britannia thought much about what Charles was doing because things were going just fine for them. Not to mention that the Social Darwinist system saw to it that discrimination against "numbers" was perfectly acceptable. That's why Lelouch chose to be an equal opportunity offender. The only question that remains is of whether or not he took it too far, but of course, any issues should be mainly taken up with the writing.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:42   Link #4038
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As for the Britannian system, are the Japanese the only "Numbers" in the Empire? If they are, then it's an issue of numbers. There are that many more Britannians than Japanese.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:47   Link #4039
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As for the Britannian system, are the Japanese the only "Numbers" in the Empire? If they are, then it's an issue of numbers. There are that many more Britannians than Japanese.
No. "Numbers" refers to people living in a nation occupied by Britannia, which is then stripped of its name and national identity and is renamed as a numbered Area. Japan, in the series' prologue, was renamed Area 11, and its citizens Elevens, when it was occupied. Another example would be the beginning of episode 5 of season 1, when Cornelia and her forces occupied Saudi Arabia, which was then redubbed Area 18.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:48   Link #4040
morbosfist
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As for the Britannian system, are the Japanese the only "Numbers" in the Empire? If they are, then it's an issue of numbers. There are that many more Britannians than Japanese.
All non-Britannians are numbers, which at the start of the series (or rather a few episodes in) is eighteen colonies. That's a lot of people.
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