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Old 2009-05-01, 12:05   Link #4121
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
How many other works of fiction employ an idea does not make an idea viable. "If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." (forgive me, but I've forgotten who said this).
Not when it works. Again, I point to Watchmen for my perfect example.

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The fact is that the turn-myself-into-the-absolute-hate-target-and-end-all-hate-forever-with-my-death idea is not realistic. It is an awesome idea and speaks to the nobility and determination of a character in that they are willing to destroy their own image (and usually life as well) in favor of bettering the world, but it would not realistically create the sort of situation that is shown at the end of the series.
Not realistic? I won't argue that point, but neither is getting a supernatural power that allows you to control minds and Jupiter. XD

Now, will the peace last? Probably not because it is human nature to fight sadly. But what it did do is unite the world for a time and may prevent something as dreadful as Lelouch or Charles from happening again, even if wars start up again.

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The idea that one man/boy's death can erase decades, centuries, millenia worth of culturally imbedded differences and hatred is simply not a realisitc outcome. People will be glad he is dead, but thy will not forget that they still hate country/religion/person 'X'.
You see, I don't agree with that. All nations change. Most people don't hate the country of Germany for the monstrocities of Hitler today right? No, they hate the actions used by the people in power at the time. Why can't this be the same thing, especially if Britannia is willing to change some of its views?

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Beyond that, the clean slate concept where everyone is somehow forgiven for everything they ever did in the past is also horribly immature. If life has a reset button then why should anyone put forth any effort in something? If someone else can die to get me off the hook, then where is my incentive to better myself?
Except that didn't exactly happen. It wasn't truely a clean slate, it is going to be hard work to rebuild everything though, so everyone is coming together for that goal and putting their differences aside. Nobody said there wouldn't be problems.

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If by some miracle, enough of the current generation of people got the message to stop all conflicts in their lifetime, it would still not guarantee anything for future generations. The blood the previous generation spilled to give their children peace, will also introduce the danger of complacency and entitlement. If they don't have to act and think, they become ignorant. Ignorance leads to fear of the unknown and foreign. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and I'll stop there because I'm starting to quote Yoda (unintentionally), but you know where this goes. It is called a 'chain of hatred' for a reason.
That is true and I agree. I am not on board that the peace will last after all. XD
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Old 2009-05-01, 12:36   Link #4122
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
That is true and I agree. I am not on board that the peace will last after all. XD
Nor do I, sooner or later trouble will arise, but then someone will say that this makes Lelouch's death pointless, which I would disagree with.

Lelouch was always an absolute idealist at heart, in my opinion, only one who wore pragmatic and cynical robes due to the circumstances.

The whole idea of Zero being an evil who would fight a greater evil is pretty idealistic to begin with, since in practice that would, naturally, only lead to more evil yet Lelouch always expected something better to come out of it. For all his trickery and all his sins, he believed that the creation of a kind world would be possible in the end and, in a way, Zero Requiem represents the same belief.

Instead of a forceful but perhaps more lasting peace like that of Schneizel's Damocles or imposing a human instrumentality knockoff like that of Charles, Lelouch wanted to believe that people would, if given the chance, freely continue to struggle for happiness and, just maybe, create a better tomorrow. It's not that unexpected for him to reach that conclusion since it's pretty much a reflection born out of his own life and that of those individuals he had met.

The key thing here is that Lelouch wanted punishment as well, first and foremost, which was his own self-limitation, but he also wanted to create a situation where the world would be able to find diplomatic ways for conflict resolution and he set up a few mechanisms which would help in this effort (the UFN, new leaders and a new Zero). Just by doing that, the world is already on the road to being "kinder" or at least better than it was before, even if things start to go wrong two, five, ten or twenty years later.
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Old 2009-05-01, 12:45   Link #4123
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Nor do I, sooner or later trouble will arise, but then someone will say that this makes Lelouch's death pointless, which I would disagree with.

Lelouch was always an absolute idealist at heart, in my opinion, only one who wore pragmatic and cynical robes due to the circumstances.

The whole idea of Zero being an evil who would fight a greater evil is pretty idealistic to begin with, since in practice that would, naturally, only lead to more evil yet Lelouch always expected something better to come out of it. For all his trickery and all his sins, he believed that the creation of a kind world would be possible in the end and, in a way, Zero Requiem represents the same belief.

Instead of a forceful but perhaps more lasting peace like that of Schneizel's Damocles or imposing a human instrumentality knockoff like that of Charles, Lelouch wanted to believe that people would, if given the chance, freely continue to struggle for happiness and, just maybe, create a better tomorrow. It's not that unexpected for him to reach that conclusion since it's pretty much a reflection born out of his own life and that of those individuals he had met.

The key thing here is that Lelouch wanted punishment as well, first and foremost, which was his own self-limitation, but he also wanted to create a situation where the world would be able to find diplomatic ways for conflict resolution and he set up a few mechanisms which would help in this effort (the UFN, new leaders and a new Zero). Just by doing that, the world is already on the road to being "kinder" or at least better than it was before, even if things start to go wrong two, five, ten or twenty years later.
And I agree fully with this post. Well thought out, and expresses my views perfectly.
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Old 2009-05-01, 17:43   Link #4124
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An idea expressed in fiction is an idea. It does not lose any value because it is used in a fictional setting but it does not gain any value either.

Yes Zero Requiem was awesome and showed the absolute depth of Lelouch's commitment to a better world, but it was also completely unecessary. All of the deaths in Zero Requiem were unecessary, including Lelouch's.

Lelouch could have stopped with the Geassing of the core nobility and a few dozen soldiers, if he even needed that. He didn't even need to make them into complete brain puppets, just a broader command like "Support me and my reign," and he's set.

He could have ruled Britannia justly, setting in motion changes that would better both Britannia and the rest of the world. He could have joined the UFN peacefully. He was a blank slate to the rest of the world as far as a ruler was concerned. He did good things and the citizens were calling him the 'Emperor of Justice at the UFN meeting.

Instead he chose to turn the world against him when all but maybe 20 people (Schneizel, Cornelia and the Core BK) thought he was the answer to their prayers, and of those 20, all but 2 or 3 of them were already doubting themselves anyway. He pushed away those who loved him, making them try to kill him, which would have let Schneizel kill them if they had suceeded, and made them believe that the person they loved was a monster, only to make them feel worse when they saw how he wanted to help people and were then honor bound to live without him and perpetuate the lie that he was pure evil. He killed and oppressed people just so the survivors would want him dead, and hoped that they would trust his sister to rule in his place after he was dead.

At this point after Euphemia and Lelouch's actions, the world would be hard pressed to trust any Britannian rulers, especially the seemingly benevolent ones. Everytime Britannia extends an olive branch to the world there has been a viper hidden in the leaves. All this because his pride demanded that he receive punishment for his own sins.

For his need to impose a punishment on himself, he could have done numerous things to make his life horrible despite the adoration the world might be feeling for him. He could seclude himself from the world, accepting 20 hour work days, Geass his friends and loved ones to not want to be around him or even forget him and Jeremiah's Geass Canceller allows this to be used on Kallen and Suzaku as well. He could even Geass himself to feel lousy and depressed and to genuinely not enjoy his life, with a 'live on' command tossed in there to prevent suicides.

Yes, I know things in fiction don't have to be realistic, if they were they'd be boring, but there are degrees of realsim employed in a series, and Zero Requiem was IMHO a massive drop in the levels of realism that Code Geass had displayed to that point.
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Old 2009-05-01, 17:46   Link #4125
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But it was dramatic and flashy and angsty, so who cares? XD
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Old 2009-05-01, 17:54   Link #4126
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But it was dramatic and flashy and angsty, so who cares? XD
I hereby concede my arguemnt in its entirity to you.

You're right, and I should say right now that I don't hate, or even dislike the ending of Code Geass. It was a TV show and it's over now. I just feel like the ending wasn't given the love and attention that the body of the series was (hell, the staff actually said this was the case, but it was beyond their control) and I am saddened by it.

I apologize in advance if my last post seemed to come off as biting any heads off.
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Old 2009-05-01, 18:07   Link #4127
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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
But it was dramatic and flashy and angsty, so who cares? XD
People who have "standards".

I thought the ending was great, sort of made up for the rushed episodes leading up to the finale. The only qualm I have with the series is that it began to undermine the importance of secondary characters towards the end. I felt the integrity (wholeness) of the story began to sort of deteriorate, and it wasn't as satisfying as it could have been.

While Lelouch was the best character, the anime team focused a bit too much on him and his thoughts. We never got to know what the others were thinking and feeling.
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Old 2009-05-01, 18:44   Link #4128
snowdevil_crow
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I hereby concede my arguemnt in its entirity to you.

You're right, and I should say right now that I don't hate, or even dislike the ending of Code Geass. It was a TV show and it's over now. I just feel like the ending wasn't given the love and attention that the body of the series was (hell, the staff actually said this was the case, but it was beyond their control) and I am saddened by it.

I apologize in advance if my last post seemed to come off as biting any heads off.
Oh, no, it definitely didn't. I agree with pretty much everything you said. And yeah, Code Geass was kind of a trainwreck of logic.

A lot of the Code Geass haters themselves even have points about the ludicrousity of the anime. But when all's said and done, I can't help but think "so what?" It was entertaining. It tugged at my heartstrings. It made me think. It made me care about the characters. And that's good enough for me. XD
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Old 2009-05-01, 18:50   Link #4129
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I'm with you, Snow. I just want to have fun when i watch a series, and Code Geass gave me a lot of fun, so i'm okay with all his flaws.

BUUUUUUUUT, Suzaku should have his own series. He's too awesome to be just the second character on the show.
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Old 2009-05-01, 18:52   Link #4130
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BUUUUUUUUT, Suzaku should have his own series. He's too awesome to be just the second character on the show.
I dunno, I thought he and Lelouch were pretty awesome as the sort of leads of Code Geass. I wouldn't mind seeing one based around him growing up in the army, though.

... we need to see that scene where he dresses in a skirt for military officers.
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Old 2009-05-01, 18:58   Link #4131
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Hum... Actually, i think i don't really need to see this one.

But, the main problem with Suzaku is that he was the antagonist of Lelouch for a lot of time. It's hard not to pick one to choose and by doing this, a lot of people were cheering against him.

Which is kind of funny, because Suzaku is the typical hero in anime that everyone loves it... Except by the maso part, hehe. I really wanted to see a series with him in the main role to see the reactions of the people. And also, i want moar Suzaku, since he was da best.
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Old 2009-05-01, 19:33   Link #4132
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I still have a feeling Suzaku would still be somewhat unpopular for his oafish tendencies (his whole "work within the system even though it's rotten to the core to begin with" ethic, for one), and Lelouch would still be as popular as an anti-hero. There are a lot of fandoms out there where the anti-hero rivals if not exceeds the aw-shucks protagonist in terms of popularity. CG subverted this by reversing the roles, and quite possibly by having an even more naively good-intentioned person than your usual protagonist as the opposing character.
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Old 2009-05-01, 19:35   Link #4133
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I thought a lot of people liked Suzaku --- mainly girls, I've noticed. He seems quite squishible. xD

Mind you, I have seen a lot of hate for him, as well, so... meh.
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Old 2009-05-01, 21:28   Link #4134
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Well, I meant in a relative sense.
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Old 2009-05-01, 22:12   Link #4135
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Yes Zero Requiem was awesome and showed the absolute depth of Lelouch's commitment to a better world, but it was also completely unecessary. All of the deaths in Zero Requiem were unecessary, including Lelouch's.
It's unnecessary for you and me, as external critics of the show or simply as human beings, but I don't think it was unnecessary for Lelouch, the character, being who he was, which is the point.

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For his need to impose a punishment on himself, he could have done numerous things to make his life horrible despite the adoration the world might be feeling for him. He could seclude himself from the world, accepting 20 hour work days, Geass his friends and loved ones to not want to be around him or even forget him and Jeremiah's Geass Canceller allows this to be used on Kallen and Suzaku as well. He could even Geass himself to feel lousy and depressed and to genuinely not enjoy his life, with a 'live on' command tossed in there to prevent suicides.
The real answer would be "you should ask the writer to get a detailed answer since both of us are only speculating and making interpretations" but that's not going to happen.

Still, I don't think the question is whether he "could" but whether he "would" and there's a subtle difference involved.

You've made some valid points, minor and otherwise, which I can leave alone, but this one I can't really agree with. Not because I agree with Lelouch's way of doing things, but simply because I don't think he would accept living on just like that given his state of mind at the end of the series. Specifically between Turns 20-21, which is when Zero Requiem was planned out in-universe.

I think it's also consistent for Lelouch, given his stated beliefs since day one (those who are allowed to shoot are those who are prepared to be shot), to consider death the only appropriate punishment after all the deaths he's already caused, directly or indirectly, and generally speaking all the harm he has brought to others through Geass. Lelouch didn't want to die without being able to accomplish anything, that's what really scared him, but he was morally prepared to accept such a fate from the beginning. In fact, one might even argue he developed a death wish through guilt, like Suzaku, but just didn't want to die for the sake of dying: he wanted punishment *and* something more. It was a conditional one.

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Yes, I know things in fiction don't have to be realistic, if they were they'd be boring, but there are degrees of realsim employed in a series, and Zero Requiem was IMHO a massive drop in the levels of realism that Code Geass had displayed to that point.
Well, did both of us watch the same Code Geass, or more to the point, the same R2?

I would say reality was already growing increasingly distant during the first season and the second one, long before Zero Requiem, had only gradually continued the downward trend towards situations that fit the perceived purposes of the story much more than any external demand for plausibility. I don't think there was a sudden drop for ZR out of the blue.

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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
You're right, and I should say right now that I don't hate, or even dislike the ending of Code Geass. It was a TV show and it's over now. I just feel like the ending wasn't given the love and attention that the body of the series was (hell, the staff actually said this was the case, but it was beyond their control) and I am saddened by it.
I can't speak about love and attention, this is just for the sake of being clear, but the staff has said that the ending didn't deviate from their plans as much as other parts of the show, like the middle, did.

Taken from the Continue interview that's floating around here and there:

Quote:
It was a shocking final episode; did you have a difficult time writing it, Mr. Okouchi?

Okouchi: No. The last episode wasn't difficult at all; in fact, it was the middle parts of R2 that turned out to be rough going. For the final episode, [I'd/we'd] already decided on the ending when writing the script for the first episode of the previous series. Episode 1, Episode 25 (Episode 1 and the final episode of the previous series) and episode 25 of R2 -- these episodes did not deviate much from our original plans.
In other words, we can't really draw a line in the sand, but it looks like it would be the bulk of R2, and not the ending, that had to go through the most changes.

I imagine that perhaps the ending could have been portrayed in a more convincing manner, maybe enough for us as critics or maybe not, but I don't think he's saying that Lelouch's death, which is the key part of the ending, wasn't part of the plan. Later on he even says it was a "logical end" and cites the same Stage 1 phrase I mentioned above.

But yes, I do admit that the road to the same result could always be different and it's unfortunate we didn't get to see the original plan.

Last edited by Xander; 2009-05-01 at 22:31.
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Old 2009-05-02, 08:37   Link #4136
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I still say Lelouch chose death as his "punishment" because he didn't want to suffer, but to end it all.
Which is why I never saw it as a punishment.
I also agree with the "he didn't want to die for the sake of dying" thingy, though.
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Old 2009-05-02, 08:41   Link #4137
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I still say Lelouch chose death as his "punishment" because he didn't want to suffer, but to end it all.
Which is why I never saw it as a punishment.
I also agree with the "he didn't want to die for the sake of dying" thingy, though.
Lelouch saw it, as a justified punishment though. {he says to Suzaku "this is also a punishment for you."} And in the end, it was a punishment. The price for his Geass-usage.
The fact, that this self-righteous-punishment-suicide, served for other purposes as well, is another convo.
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Old 2009-05-02, 08:44   Link #4138
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Lelouch saw it, as a justified punishment though. {he says to Suzaku "this is also a punishment for you."} And in the end, it was a punishment. The price for his Geass-usage.
The fact, that this self-righteous-punishment-suicide, served for other purposes as well, is another convo.
I know that Lelouch saw it as a punishment. However, I don't have to agree with him.
He wanted to die - he even smiled - and most of the time, I think a punishment someone chooses themselves isn't a punishment.
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Old 2009-05-02, 08:48   Link #4139
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I know that Lelouch saw it as a punishment. However, I don't have to agree with him.
He wanted to die - he even smiled - and most of the time, I think a punishment someone chooses themselves isn't a punishment.
You said it. It is still a punishment. 8D
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Old 2009-05-02, 08:50   Link #4140
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You said it. It is still a punishment. 8D
rofl.
I won't argue about semantics. xD
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