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Old 2009-05-20, 17:54   Link #4261
azul120
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Failed to respond here, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Also, Lelouch's reasons at the beginning were mostly selfish, whereas Schneizel always thought about the greater good. This is a huge difference in personality.
Schneizel seemed to be okay with the Britannian rule through fear though. I wouldn't consider that thinking of the greater good so much. Only reason he opposed his father seemed to be because the latter was losing interest in the world itself.

Quote:
Schneizel was completely selfless and had no attachments, whereas Lelouch was always more on the selfish side and had a lot of things he cared about - his mother, Nunally, Euphie, his pride, his ambition (or at least he liked winning).
Apathetic would be a more fitting term than selfless. Especially since, comparable to Lelouch liking to win, Schneizel simply avoided playing games where he wouldn't be the loser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777
The problem was that Lelouch was very close to accepting Charles world in the animne seriesd. What makes you think he would go against his mother who showed him "love" when he never had the experience of learning about true human will and emotions? He would have either have joined Schneizel's side of things, or he would have went with his father (which would have been more likely) if V.V. didn't have his little jealousy fit and have Marianna killed.
That was long before he learned of Marianne's true colors. Heck, Lelouch had still been carrying on her memory in R2 until the moment he met her again in 21 and found out what she had really stood for all those years.
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Old 2009-05-20, 18:38   Link #4262
Charred Knight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
You've forgotten a few willful participation or desires for participation. Guilford is questionable, as we never see him openly say anything, he just follows orders. But Cornelia is certainly not someone who doesn't play dirty to get what she wants. Her entire intro to the show is one covered in blood as she squashes a rebellion in some other Area. Her general demeanor towards the Japanese, outside of the massacre she was involved in that was cited, is like that towards a resource. The Japanese are a resource for her people, and she treats them as such.

S1 is limited in its massacres but R2 is filled with them. How many people does Colores kill just to get himself some glory while Guilford follows without question? At this point, you have to question Guilford's own blood stained hands because, while he may be following orders, he never questions them. All of the KoR are presented as mass murderers right from the get-go with Suzaku's introduction as the White Reaper. Luciano is a few screws loose in the head. Gino wanted to exterminate the Japanese because Zero gave him the pretext to do it. Anya doesn't bat an eye at obliterating anything (though she has her own mental issues). The two rest just died somewhere with no character or disappeared.

The only KoR presented as even mildly sane is Bismark, who openly states his detest for war. Even then, though, he has his own issues in being the KoO and knowing Charles' plans and supporting the man.

All these people, Cornelia, the KoR, are people in power and people who have no problem with killing or propagating their way of thinking. So there are more characters than just Clovis (who's reason is pure panic) to have done detestable things. Cornelia enters the stage with blood and then has herself a massacre, the KoR are feared for their ruthlessness and skill, and you have one of them off his rocker, one waiting for pretext for a purge, and a loli-with memory issues. But a lot of these characters get a very arbitrary free-pass whereas, like you said, Clovis died, yet he didn't do anything worse than the others cited.



This is also a line of suspect. No one is blaming all of the Britannian's or the Britannian military. I don't care if Britannian Soldier #2123 dies or not, he's a soldier and nothing more. But its a discussion about those troublesome people, that select group and that leadership, much like Nazi Germany, that parts of got off scot free. Cornelia, the KoR, and such are all leaders who propagate the system at the expenses of others. They may believe in their system, but that doesn't change that some of their actions were vile and went completely unpunished.
Thank You saying that

Like I said in another thread compare how Hiromu Arakawa wrote the Ishval Massacre, and how Okouchi wrote Britannia.

Okouchi wasn't trying to say both sides where good, Britannia was clearly the villain.

Although i do disgree with you on Bismarck. The man was the second in command and completely loyal to Charles, and frankly how sane can you be when your completely loyal to Charles.
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Old 2009-05-20, 18:42   Link #4263
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Yeah. Bismarck might have been the honorable general type if not for his blind allegiance to Chuck.
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Old 2009-05-20, 19:18   Link #4264
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
You do when you only interact with the Upper Crust of Royalty and Nobles. Schneizel is a freaking Prince. We don't know what happened to his mother, and obviously his father couldn't give a shit. If anything, some evidence seems to point to Marianna being someone Schneizel looked up too (and I always had to wonder why anyone really looked up to her...) So why couldn;t one argue that Schneizel changed somewhat from that as Lelouch did? Of course, I always though that Schneizel always saw things a little differently than the rest of his family.

Also remember that Schneizel showed the most promise of all of Charles children before Lelouch came along. He may have been the Second Prince, but he had the most potential. He was probably trained to not let his emotions get the better of him.
I have no problem with someone saying that Schneizel could have been a bit more like Lelouch, or that Lelouch could have been a bit more like Schneizel.
However, I simply can not see them as "two sides of the same coin" in the sense that indicates that they could have basically been the same person. We know nothing about what Schneizel was like as a child, but we know that Lelouch had attachments and personal desires.
So from my point of view, their minds are similar, but their "hearts" always were far from being the same. Schneizel is not a horrible person (even though he can be condemned for his actions just like Lelouch), but he is certainly unique.

Quote:
So? Schneizel isn't really one to argue... he is very mellow...
Because he has no desires of his own.
Which is why he and Lelouch simply aren't the same. Similar in some ways, yes, but not so similar that you could just put them into each other's shoes.

Quote:
Hmm... After reading what Betteroffer posted, I can see where you are coming from. But that seems to just prove my point still. Lelouch would have became another Schneizel in a sense by following the rules fully like Suzaku ended up doing. Only difference is that Lelouch wouldn;t have gained the real world experience that ended up kicking down his narcissistic attitude.
Actually, I don't think Lelouch would have been quite so egocentric had his mother lived.
But yes, he might have followed the rules. However, that doesn't make him another Schneizel.

Quote:
I don't fully buy that though.
Didn't the staff say that Schneizel had no attachments?
I believe he loved his siblings... but in his own way. A way that allowed him to kill them without hesistation if they became a threat.

Quote:
I wouldn't either... Light was seriously fucked up in the head...
Yep. xD

Quote:
Meh. Conceeded here.
*-*

Quote:
The problem was that Lelouch was very close to accepting Charles world in the animne seriesd. What makes you think he would go against his mother who showed him "love" when he never had the experience of learning about true human will and emotions? He would have either have joined Schneizel's side of things, or he would have went with his father (which would have been more likely) if V.V. didn't have his little jealousy fit and have Marianna killed.
I think ultimately, he would have done whatever he thought his sisters - especially Nunally, of course, but also Euphie - would want. I'm not sure which conclusion he would have reached, though, seeing how his screwed up past is what really defines him.

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Yes. XD
No! xD

Quote:
I don't think we will find common ground either. I understand what you are saying, but I don't fully agree with it.
Same here. xD


Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Schneizel seemed to be okay with the Britannian rule through fear though. I wouldn't consider that thinking of the greater good so much. Only reason he opposed his father seemed to be because the latter was losing interest in the world itself.
Well, to Schneizel, the world is the greater good.

Quote:
Apathetic would be a more fitting term than selfless. Especially since, comparable to Lelouch liking to win, Schneizel simply avoided playing games where he wouldn't be the loser.
Hm... well, selfless basically means someone doesn't think about himself when doing something. And I'd say that's true for Schneizel, apathy or not.
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Old 2009-05-20, 19:24   Link #4265
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Well, to Schneizel, the world is the greater good.
To him, perhaps. As per his detatchment, he had no will to actually change it for the better, just keep things the way they were.

Quote:
Hm... well, selfless basically means someone doesn't think about himself when doing something. And I'd say that's true for Schneizel, apathy or not.
He didn't think about other people when they got in the way of his idea of right and wrong.
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Old 2009-05-20, 19:26   Link #4266
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
To him, perhaps. As per his detatchment, he had no will to actually change it for the better, just keep things the way they were.
I think he was simply content waiting until he could ascend the throne himself.

Quote:
He didn't think about other people when they got in the way of his idea of right and wrong.
Because 100000000 people > 1000 people.
That's Schneizel logic for you. xD
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Old 2009-05-20, 19:30   Link #4267
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I think he was simply content waiting until he could ascend the throne himself.
It's a little hard to tell what he had in mind back then.

Quote:
Because 100000000 people > 1000 people.
That's Schneizel logic for you. xD
Which makes sense, and could be applied to Lelouch, except Schneizel wouldn't even give a second thought afterwards to the people he walked on.
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Old 2009-05-21, 03:39   Link #4268
lelouch_zero
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Last episode

the ending's great
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Old 2009-05-23, 09:11   Link #4269
iBeast
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The best character of all time...

He had all the women and power in the world and then died to save it.

That's bad ass.
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Old 2009-05-23, 10:25   Link #4270
bladeofdarkness
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he was also an asshole of epic proportions
an anti-hero to end all anti-heroes
not simply anti-heroic but at time capable of full blown villainy

you can like him (as I do)
but you have to take the good with the bad
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Old 2009-05-23, 13:09   Link #4271
snowdevil_crow
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what blade said.

He was kind of a pompous, self-important jerk. He was also self-sacrificing and sweet.

It's why I love him! <3 Nice, complex character... a Byronic Hero to the extreme!
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Old 2009-05-23, 13:16   Link #4272
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
what blade said.

He was kind of a pompous, self-important jerk. He was also self-sacrificing and sweet.

It's why I love him! <3 Nice, complex character... a Byronic Hero to the extreme!
that he was self sacrificing was nice
its the OTHER sacrificing that makes him less nice
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Old 2009-05-23, 13:22   Link #4273
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Haha, true, true.
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Old 2009-05-23, 13:40   Link #4274
bladeofdarkness
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if i sound kind of pissed off at lelouch its for a simple reason
it recently occored to me that what happened with euphie was more damning of him then i originally felt about it
its true that the "geassing her to kill all the japanese" was unexpected
but here's the thing
lelouch went to the SAZ planning to do something almost EXACTLY LIKE THAT
he was going to force euhpie to do something that would both destroy her and everything she personally stood for AND make her the most hated person in the entire area so that he can ripe the political benifits
he may not have planned to have her kill all those innocent people
but for EUHPIE there would be no real difference (except maybe death, which may have been preferable to her life after it)
she would have been destroyed completely and utterly, when all she really wanted was to try and help the lives of the japanese people
and she wouldnt even be able to explain it becouse she wouldnt be able to remember doing it

its even worse then what he did with jeremia becouse jeremia at least had it coming
he was trying to frame suzaku inorder to cancel the honorery britannian system and make life considerably WORSE for the people there
everything euphie was trying to do was help bring peace to the area with nothing but the BEST of intentions in her heart
what ever OTHER benifits people like shnizel may felt this would produce, euphie herself was doing to for the sake of peace and nothing else
her only "crime" was that her actions were a problem for lelouch

lelouch in the end couldnt go through with it becouse he ended up being confronted by the fact that euphie was so sickinigly sweet that she would even sacrifice her own position in order to imporve the life of the common japanese person (not even britannian)
not becouse he was appalled by the idea of what he was about to do
not becouse it would have destroyed his sister
not becouse he knew suzaku and she were an item
not even becosue of his own personal feelings for her
he deceided against it becouse SHE showed HIM who the real messiha was
she showed him what sacrifice really was

what followed was a tragedy
but it was a tragedy that up to that point he PLANNED to INTENIONALLY generate
he came with that in mind
and he almost ended up doing it despite eupihe's complete show of trust in him (going with him alone)
and for that i find his actions from that point on (in season 1, at least) to be repulsive
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Old 2009-05-23, 14:31   Link #4275
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Actually, Lelouch's bastard side never bothered me. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I think it's very endearing when he goes all egocentric and ruthless. I always want to hug him, becase even though a twisted past is no excuse, it's certainly something that makes me go all clovis on the poor guy.
Yep, I'm a fangirl.
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Old 2009-05-23, 17:20   Link #4276
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Well Euphemia WAS about to derail his efforts to change a horribly corrupt government, that she herself admitted she disagreed with.

In doing so she was also tossing out her one and only (admittedly slim) chance of creating a lasting change within that government by becoming Empress.

Even then, staying on as a princess and actually applying herself at her studies would have made her able to effect much larger changes down the road than the SAZ.

The SAZ was a pinprick of land and only one of Britannia's 18 territories.

Cornelia admitted her intentions to hand over Area 11 once she was finished with cleaning up the terrorists. If Euphemia became Viceroy, then she could help the ENTIRE AREA, and if her policies boosted productivity, then the other Areas might follow suit, if only to be making more money.

She admitted that she was doing this to get Lelouch and Nunally back, essentially shooting Clovis and everyone the BK killed up to now (like Shirley's father) the middle finger.

While Suzaku would still hold the rank of Major, he might have been tempted to follow Euphemia and leave the army. Even if he didn't, without her to shield him, he would probably be blamed by the higher-ups for 'deluding and currupting' Euphemia. Imagine how Cornelia would take it if her little sister renounced her title; her family (as far as she knew) for "Those Elevens" and then Suzaku comes back saying "I want to change more." She'd probably be thinking "Oh, so seducing my sister and making her renounce her family for the ones who killed three of my siblings wasn't good enough for you?!"

I can't exactly use this as much of an arguement since it wasn't addressed in canon, but I've mentioned why the SAZ should have actually sent global violence through the roof and started a war the likes of which would rip Japan apart.
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Old 2009-05-23, 17:28   Link #4277
bladeofdarkness
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i would agree with you if i believed for a second that lelouch was really concerned with the trouble that the SAZ would cause to the world
or that it wouldnt really work as well as she wanted
or that it would only be a mask and not really give the japanese people the true change that they needed so much
or that it would prevent her from effecting real change from a position of power
or that suzaku would be blamed for it
or that any of the reasons you gave for why it wasnt such a good idea

but i dont believe for a micro second that lelouch actually cared about any of those things
euphie was doing something that was in the way of his own plans
thats it
she was derailing his plan and he needed to put a stop to it
nothing more
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Old 2009-05-23, 17:34   Link #4278
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i would agree with you if i believed for a second that lelouch was really concerned with the trouble that the SAZ would cause to the world
or that it wouldnt really work as well as she wanted
or that it would only be a mask and not really give the japanese people the true change that they needed so much
or that it would prevent her from effecting real change from a position of power
or that suzaku would be blamed for it
or that any of the reasons you gave for why it wasnt such a good idea

but i dont believe for a micro second that lelouch actually cared about any of those things
euphie was doing something that was in the way of his own plans
thats it
she was derailing his plan and he needed to put a stop to it
nothing more
I agree.
Lelouch wanted his revenge more than anything else there. But considering his past and determination, it says a lot that he couldn't do it - even if it was just because he was reminded of what kind of person Euphie was.
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Old 2009-05-23, 17:57   Link #4279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Actually, Lelouch's bastard side never bothered me. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I think it's very endearing when he goes all egocentric and ruthless. I always want to hug him, becase even though a twisted past is no excuse, it's certainly something that makes me go all clovis on the poor guy.
Yep, I'm a fangirl.
You're not the only one. Lelouch is just too interesting. Intelligent, witty, hot, ambitious, cunning, powerful, and totally badass. But he's caring and unselfish (at times).

Whoever said he's a Byronic Hero is right on the spot. He's just so damn complex. What just popped into my head was Namor the Sub-Mariner. ^^
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Old 2009-05-23, 23:11   Link #4280
azul120
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I won't disagree that he wanted revenge, and that his original idea of geassing Euphie to shoot him was pretty low, but what about the point that Lelouch made that Euphemia's SAZ plan, as he saw it, was that it would go against the will of the Japanese people, being that it would be coming from Britannian royalty, and appear to be a ploy? This was right before Euphie told Lelouch she would be dropping her place in the lineage to the throne, of course, which was what convinced Lelouch that her plan would work.
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