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Old 2009-07-07, 19:58   Link #4561
synaesthetic
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As a writer I can relate to Diethard, and yes he does make me lol.

This needs to be moved to the philosophy thread as it is no longer solely about Lelouch.

I am the queen of derails. -.-'
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Old 2009-07-07, 19:59   Link #4562
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow View Post
there was a philosophy thread at one point? Why was I never aware of this? o.o
The Philosophy of Code Geass. Enjoy.
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Old 2009-07-07, 20:02   Link #4563
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wooo thanks!
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Old 2009-07-07, 22:58   Link #4564
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Evidently I missed out on a lot.

However, I don't think you can necessarily say that Lelouch was responsible for more carnage than Cornelia, who basically entered the show in a bloody fashion, and no doubt had been at it for years before then as well, all the way up until the aftermath of the Black Rebellion. The Saitama ghetto was just one incident. Now imagine several years worth of that.

Edit: Not to mention that in Cornelia's case, it was played totally straight, and with concern for nothing more than the area's productivity. She didn't even flinch when any of the murders were carried out.

Last edited by azul120; 2009-07-09 at 15:51.
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Old 2009-07-07, 23:34   Link #4565
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Evidently I missed out on a lot.
You're not the only one azul. Stupid evening hours at Giant!

Well, there's no way in heck I'm going through 5-6 pages of this stuff. It's way too tl;dr. But I'll agree with you azul. I'd say Cornelia, for the most part, is much more disagreeable than Lelouch as far as her war tactics. They both may get innocent civilians in their war games, but Lelouch at least doesn't actively seek them out and he doesn't follow the Britannian discrimination ideology.
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Old 2009-07-07, 23:39   Link #4566
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Careful there, Nobodyman. blade's argument there was simply about whether any given character's body count was forgivable or not, regardless of the conditions or intent, and how a lot of fans forgive Lelouch while looking down on others.

Personally I'd say it cuts both ways, that there are also people who hate Lelouch for that and other reasons, while giving other characters a free pass. Then again, with one of the most fractured fanbases of any show, what else can you expect?
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Old 2009-07-07, 23:48   Link #4567
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Careful there, Nobodyman. blade's argument there was simply about whether any given character's body count was forgivable or not, regardless of the conditions or intent, and how a lot of fans forgive Lelouch while looking down on others.

Personally I'd say it cuts both ways, that there are also people who hate Lelouch for that and other reasons, while giving other characters a free pass. Then again, with one of the most fractured fanbases of any show, what else can you expect?
Ah, now that is a different story. Well, lets just say that there are things I love about Lelouch and things I detest about him. His massive body count, of course, being one of the things I detest. As far as forgiveness, that's kinda tricky for me. I think forgiveness is a very personal concept and it can depend on the circumstances. But for the sake of argument, I'd say that there's no way I would forgive someone for something like that, real or fictional, unless they wanted to be forgiven and were truly sorry. And even then it may not be certain that I would.
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Old 2009-07-07, 23:57   Link #4568
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I'll condense it for you, Nobody.

For several pages I kept trying to tell blade that Lelouch's bastardry is a lot of what makes him an interesting and entertaining character. It creates a sort of emotional rollercoaster--you like the character, he's attractive, he is dramatic, he is constantly getting the short end of the stick and still kicking ass and taking names.

But then he goes and crosses the line twice, then blows the line up. And you're left staring, openmouthed, shouting WTF at the screen.

I consider this a good characterization and good writing. Lelouch is well-written with the exception of a few wallbangers in R2. He's enormously entertaining.

bladeofdarkness somehow took this to mean I was condoning his evil acts, even granting a form of tacit approval. I made many, many posts in an effort to convince him that no, I am not whitewashing Lelouch's misdeeds. I'm saying that they are an integral part of his character that makes Lelouch, well... Lelouch.

But he didn't seem to understand what I (and others) were trying to get across, so we had some back-and-forth for five or six pages.
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Old 2009-07-08, 00:05   Link #4569
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'll condense it for you, Nobody.

For several pages I kept trying to tell blade that Lelouch's bastardry is a lot of what makes him an interesting and entertaining character. It creates a sort of emotional rollercoaster--you like the character, he's attractive, he is dramatic, he is constantly getting the short end of the stick and still kicking ass and taking names.

But then he goes and crosses the line twice, then blows the line up. And you're left staring, openmouthed, shouting WTF at the screen.

I consider this a good characterization and good writing. Lelouch is well-written with the exception of a few wallbangers in R2. He's enormously entertaining.

bladeofdarkness somehow took this to mean I was condoning his evil acts, even granting a form of tacit approval. I made many, many posts in an effort to convince him that no, I am not whitewashing Lelouch's misdeeds. I'm saying that they are an integral part of his character that makes Lelouch, well... Lelouch.

But he didn't seem to understand what I (and others) were trying to get across, so we had some back-and-forth for five or six pages.
Hmm, well I think that's understandable. I mean, that's a huge part of what makes Lelouch's character is his moral questionability. You never can tell exactly what to expect from the guy. We know he's adopted this Machiavellian strategy, but we also know that he does have some emotional attachments. So we're left to wonder exactly how far it'll go and how much he can take before he just says "f*ck it" and goes off the deep end. I agree that if he was a real person I would not condone his actions, but as a fictional character he's pretty badass.
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Old 2009-07-08, 00:37   Link #4570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
I agree that if he was a real person I would not condone his actions, but as a fictional character he's pretty badass.
This. Thisssssss. So very much.
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Old 2009-07-08, 03:38   Link #4571
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
You're not the only one azul. Stupid evening hours at Giant!

Well, there's no way in heck I'm going through 5-6 pages of this stuff. It's way too tl;dr. But I'll agree with you azul. I'd say Cornelia, for the most part, is much more disagreeable than Lelouch as far as her war tactics. They both may get innocent civilians in their war games, but Lelouch at least doesn't actively seek them out and he doesn't follow the Britannian discrimination ideology.
another example
lelouch kills a LOT more civilians
and in the final arc he AIMS at killing people for the simple reason of opposing him
he also causes 3 massacres (cult, SAZ, and arguably narita)
and inslaves the world
and in the final arc he behaves even worse by purposely killing his own soldiers as a STRATEGY
but you consider cornellia (who is an ass, but her actions are far fewer) more disagreeable

if you had said you find her less LIKABLE, i'd let it slide
but you find it easier to agree with a guy who killed FAR more people, and commited FAR more atrocities, then with someone who commited less
why is that ?

because you judge lelouch by different standards
DOUBLE standards

keep in mind, this is not about LIKING him as a character
this is about saying that he is less disagreeable despite doing far worse

@synaesthetic
you i think your mistaken about what you think I ment
i am never questioning whether or not you LIKE him (he's a likable character)
i am questioning the fact that a very large part of the fandom seems willing to completely accept anything he does, just because he is cool
where this would NOT be the case for any OTHER character on the show

this leads down a slippery slope, and is basically the reason why he gets such awesome leather pants by the fandom
a willingness to igonre character flaws, for the sake of "he's awesome"
if you like him BECAUSE he's a monster at times
thats your deal i suppose
but i'm talking about the absurd number of people who think he's a HERO all the time, even when he's a monster
and want him to be alive, despite the fact that it ruins the only aspect of Z-R that WASNT about lelouch being a selfish monster
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Old 2009-07-08, 03:54   Link #4572
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I think the Cornelia thing also has to do with what she was presumably responsible for prior to the series canon.

While it's true that Lelouch during the Zero Requiem was doing it to a heavier degree, Cornelia had been doing it for longer.

Ergo, she more likely than not had at least as much blood on her hands.

Last edited by azul120; 2009-07-09 at 15:55.
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Old 2009-07-08, 04:22   Link #4573
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if you had said you find her less LIKABLE, i'd let it slide
but you find it easier to agree with a guy who killed FAR more people, and commited FAR more atrocities, then with someone who commited less
why is that ?
Because Lelouch's goal was to break an ongoing chain of hatred, while Cornelia was simply going along with a system that, in the long run, brought more suffering than Lelouch ever could.
I like Cornelia, but I'd much sooner agree with Lelouch. Not because I think he's more awesome, but because his intentions were different. Again, I'm not a consequentialist.
By your logic, I'd have to say Clovis causing a massacre with a complete disregard for human life is is somehow more noble than Schneizel trying to bring world peace through Fleya simply because he killed less people (and, if I had "double-standards", because I think he's more awesome).
But it's not just about what a character does. It's also about the why. And while everyone has their reasons, there a goals I can support more easily than others. Not to mention Lelouch has the "screwed childhood" excuse going on - if you put both him and Cornelia in front of a court, that might very well be enough to let him off the hook more easily, especially since he's still a teenager.

Quote:
@synaesthetic
you i think your mistaken about what you think I ment
i am never questioning whether or not you LIKE him (he's a likable character)
That's not the way you put it before. But at least we're finally at the core of the matter now.

Quote:
i am questioning the fact that a very large part of the fandom seems willing to completely accept anything he does, just because he is cool
where this would NOT be the case for any OTHER character on the show
Happens in all animes, all the time.

Quote:
and want him to be alive, despite the fact that it ruins the only aspect of Z-R that WASNT about lelouch being a selfish monster
It ruins it for you.
I, on the other hand, don't see how it would change anything had Lelouch survived - as long as he didn't see it coming.
Thus, I don't care either way. The final stage of Zero Requiem was awesome because Lelouch's resolve was real; and that's it.
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Old 2009-07-08, 07:36   Link #4574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
another example
lelouch kills a LOT more civilians
and in the final arc he AIMS at killing people for the simple reason of opposing him
he also causes 3 massacres (cult, SAZ, and arguably narita)
and inslaves the world
and in the final arc he behaves even worse by purposely killing his own soldiers as a STRATEGY
but you consider cornellia (who is an ass, but her actions are far fewer) more disagreeable

if you had said you find her less LIKABLE, i'd let it slide
but you find it easier to agree with a guy who killed FAR more people, and commited FAR more atrocities, then with someone who commited less
why is that ?

because you judge lelouch by different standards
DOUBLE standards

keep in mind, this is not about LIKING him as a character
this is about saying that he is less disagreeable despite doing far worse

@synaesthetic
you i think your mistaken about what you think I ment
i am never questioning whether or not you LIKE him (he's a likable character)
i am questioning the fact that a very large part of the fandom seems willing to completely accept anything he does, just because he is cool
where this would NOT be the case for any OTHER character on the show

this leads down a slippery slope, and is basically the reason why he gets such awesome leather pants by the fandom
a willingness to igonre character flaws, for the sake of "he's awesome"
if you like him BECAUSE he's a monster at times
thats your deal i suppose
but i'm talking about the absurd number of people who think he's a HERO all the time, even when he's a monster
and want him to be alive, despite the fact that it ruins the only aspect of Z-R that WASNT about lelouch being a selfish monster
Haha, i am sorry but i am gonna lol, when you say that Lelouch is likable for you, you clearly hate him blade, honest.

Also, for the last effing time:
Lelouch is being liked because he was the only one that pretty much made all the fandom baw, in the finale.
Because, everyone was like "wtf he wants to accomplish? man, i am wetting my pants" and when ZR's real puprose was revealed everyone was "man, maaaaan. ;A;"
Because, among his shit, he was vulnerable towards Nunally and his friends.
Because, he was the fucking main character, that got the most focus and it is rational and the way it is supposed to be for the audience to sympathize more.
This is not double standards, cause in this situation there is no equality. Accept it and move on, honestly.

And yeah, there are people that do not really examine his goals, and are just "shallow fangirls" according to you. An ah, what are you trying to do? Prove that they are "shallow fangirls"? This is a part of the fandom as well, so what?
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Old 2009-07-08, 07:55   Link #4575
bladeofdarkness
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i dont hate him NOW
but i hated him during the final arc (past tense)
before he showed that he is willing to die
AFTER he showed that he was planing to die, i liked him again

hence, i see the act of negating his death as also negating the reason i like him again

Quote:
Lelouch is being liked because he was the only one that pretty much made all the fandom baw, in the finale.
you also have the cause and effect thing reversed a bit
its not that lelouch is being liked BECAUSE he made all the fandom baw, in the finale.
he made all the fandom baw in the finale, BECAUSE he was liked
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Old 2009-07-08, 08:00   Link #4576
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Lol, look blade, you got a smart-i-am-right-complex. You are trying to prove that you know what is on our minds, when lol, you can't do that. It is no accident, that a lot of people for the last pages, have been trying to tell you a certain something, and you just ignore it, for the sake of double-standards-ery {please, learn where actual double standard-ery is applied btw} and idk what else.
I am done here, honest. Because, you are so sure that you are right, it is not even funny. If synaesthetic or nogi, or whoever else wants to argue, to prove they are not actually elephants, they can feel free to do so though i think, they will accomplish nothing. Ah.

Lelouch is my fav chara, for million reasons. And i am not gonna be a mister-moral in the end, and start counting what he did there and this and that, just to say "ZOMG YOU DOUBLE STANDARDS'!111"

p.s i actually loved Lelouch more than ever, in the last arc especially. I am crazy right? Yeah, i know. And you probably, missed what was important in the last arc, actually.
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Old 2009-07-08, 08:18   Link #4577
bladeofdarkness
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you want to deny that this is double standards, fine
lets call it "moral dissonance" then

why was suzaku so hated when opposing lelouch, when in effect he was actually RIGHT to do so (especially after euphie)
the result of the end of ep 14 especially comes to mind in his case
why was ougi given such a hate fandom for turning on lelouch for perfectly good REASONS (he DID lie to them for over a year, and is guilty of several crimes that cant be forgiven)
why did kallen suddenly started getting more hate after opposing lelouch when there is no logical reasons for this
why did NUNNALY, get hate for opposing him

why did suzaku suddenly became so popular after joining lelouch despite becoming completely derailed in both morals and motives (and not being very popular to begin with)
why did NINA (queen of the geass scrappy's) get completely forgiven after joining him
why did C.C not get hate after revealing that she had spent the entire anime planing to back-stab lelouch, and was in effect responsilbe for parcticlly all the shit that happened to him because she hid the truth from him

my problem is that lelouch's leather pants also rub off on everyone around him
and this forms a complete detachment between what happens in the story, and what the fans choose to see

if your with lelouch, you get love
if you oppose lelouch, you get hate
and thats moral dissonance on the part of the viewers
"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power"
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Old 2009-07-08, 08:26   Link #4578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you want to deny that this is double standards, fine
lets call it "moral dissonance" then

why was suzaku so hated when opposing lelouch, when in effect he was actually RIGHT to do so (especially after euphie)
the result of the end of ep 14 especially comes to mind in his case
why was ougi given such a hate fandom for turning on lelouch for perfectly good REASONS (he DID lie to them for over a year, and is guilty of several crimes that cant be forgiven)
why did kallen suddenly started getting more hate after opposing lelouch when there is no logical reasons for this
why did NUNNALY, get hate for opposing him

why did suzaku suddenly became so popular after joining lelouch despite becoming completely derailed in both morals and motives (and not being very popular to begin with)
why did NINA (queen of the geass scrappy's) get completely forgiven after joining him
why did C.C not get hate after revealing that she had spent the entire anime planing to back-stab lelouch, and was in effect responsilbe for parcticlly all the shit that happened to him because she hid the truth from him

my problem is that lelouch's leather pants also rub off on everyone around him
and this forms a complete detachment between what happens in the story, and what the fans choose to see

if your with lelouch, you get love
if you oppose lelouch, you get hate
and thats moral dissonance on the part of the viewers
"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power"
Ah, do not push your views on people, and do not push your views on me.
Also, generalizing, is not wise. Ah, no, not at all.

And ah, you know blade, i do not give a crap about your problem with Lelouch now, we have dicked up the last pages for what? Bitch, whine and so on. Excuse me, if i am tired to prove i do not have double standards and i have a fiction preference, because Lelouch, despite to your popular belief, is more than just a "monster." Have you ever thought, you had not gotten Lelouch's chara, as other people have?

Again, generalizing = absolute FAIL.
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Old 2009-07-08, 08:29   Link #4579
bladeofdarkness
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i rather think i got more then you think i did
some people insist that he's a hero
some people insist that he's a villain
i insist that he is BOTH, and you have to take the good with the bad in order to TRULY appreciate his character

and the for LAST FUCKING TIME
i LIKE lelouch
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Old 2009-07-08, 08:33   Link #4580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i rather think i got more then you think i did
some people insist that he's a hero
some people insist that he's a villain
i insist that he is BOTH, and you have to take the good with the bad in order to TRULY appreciate his character

and the for LAST FUCKING TIME
i LIKE lelouch
Oh really? Is that so? Well then for the last time

STOP WHINING ABOUT HIM, AND TRYING TO PROVE THAT WE ARE ALL DOUBLE-STANDARDS

Honest, you are ALWAYS, always whining about him, about how R2 is fucked up, kinda difficult to believe what you say, when every post contradicts that.
And actually, i do not really care, i mean, till the point you said we were on in denial, and we are bring double-standards shit.

Also, people can understand where Suzaku came from in the finale of S1, as people can understand where Lelouch came from as well. They were both right and wrong.
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