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Old 2008-05-06, 22:35   Link #441
ashlay
the red string of fate
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Or he could be maintaining the facade and testing Lelouch. Techincally speaking Suzaku shouldn't know Nunnally.

I mean Lelouch was already questioning what a governor general would want with a student. If he said "Suzaku here," wouldn't that give him a heads up and not give the reaction Suzaku would be looking for?
yes, itoastmysocks already pointed out that possibility.

still, like I said, it's just a fear. I myself don't like having hints at the possibility of Nunnally having mindwipes. >_>
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Old 2008-05-06, 22:40   Link #442
Marsala
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It would be bizarre for Nunnally to have her memory of Suzaku wiped but not her memory of Lelouch, just so that Suzaku could say "Kururugi here." He was probably trying to be more formal so that Lelouch would be even more shocked when he heard the voice of the Governor-General.
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Old 2008-05-06, 22:45   Link #443
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Marsala View Post
It would be bizarre for Nunnally to have her memory of Suzaku wiped but not her memory of Lelouch, just so that Suzaku could say "Kururugi here." He was probably trying to be more formal so that Lelouch would be even more shocked when he heard the voice of the Governor-General.
Suzaku's linked to her life in Japan, i.e., her being traded away as a political hostage for the sake of Britannia eventually conquering Japan.

That may be something the Emperor wants to erase for the sake of Nunnally being a co-operative little governor/princess. >_> (obviously that's not a definite, it's just one explanation of why such an action would be done)
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Old 2008-05-07, 07:56   Link #444
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Who said anything about excusing? Lulu has the choice of abandoning his crippled blind sister or not abandoning his crippled blind sister. She needed him more than BK needed him. Lulu is merely a man who has his priorities straight; family is more important.
And yet he failed, miserably at both. Yet if he had succeded at the Rebellion, he could have gone on from a stronger standpoint, and allies, to do his best to rescue Nunally, possibly with *gasp* a plan.

Loyalty demanded demands loyalty in return, as the saying goes, so I can just as easily rewrite that boolean of yours as "Lulu has the choice of abandoing the tens of thousands of Japanese he's incited into open rebellion or NOT abandoning the tens of thousands of Japanese he's incited into open rebellion." And considering how those tens of thousands of Japanese wouldn't have risen up if HE hadn't acted, Lelouch has responsibility for them.

And in the end, that responsibility comes down to remembering that he did sacrifice thousands for the sake of simply trying to rescue Nunaly.



Quote:
Would you praise him if he decided to win the battle and his sister dies?
Who said his sister would die? At the moment, only his own paranoia. If her kidnappers had wanted to kill her, there's not one thing he could have done about it by chasing off to some remote island. If they wanted to hold her hostage against him, they could have done it the moment the battle started, and threatened to execute her live from her home should he not order all the armies to stand down. Heck, they could have simply waited at the island with her in her chair, Uzi's at ready, and ordered him to come out or they'd shoot. What would he have done then?

He had no plan. He ran off with no plan, no idea how he'd solve the problem, and at the same time threw away all the potential support and such he could have gotten had he finished the task at hand.

But no, Lelouch confuses priorities with capabilities, and so goes off to try one thing when he can only possibly do another.

Now, in case anyone start thinking "you wouldn't say that if it happened to you," you're wrong.

If I'm a squad leader in a firefight, and then suddenly learn that some stranger has kidnapped my sister, it would be absurd of me to simply run away from the firefight and my men, hop on a plane to the States, and assume that I alone could somehow rescue her. I'm hardly necessary for a hostage rescue team, by the time I got there she could have been moved half a dozen times, and the consequences for abandoning my allies means that I've virtually thrown away any chance for getting their or government assistance in the matter whatsoever.


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Do you REALLY believe you would hate him less for that?
I would say "yes, I know so," except that you're making a very serious fallacy here.

I DON'T hate Lelouch. I have no respect for him, I'm as far from a fanboy as you can get, and I certainly scorn his methods and mindset, but I don't hate him.

Quote:
You don't always get to have the right choice; sometimes you just have to choose what is less wrong.
That's what leadership is, making the hard choice. Unfortunately for Lelouch, the less wrong choice would have been to take the one he could actually accomplish and to fulfill the responsibilities he had made for himself.
Quote:
Saving his sister is less wrong, so that's what he did.
I strongly disagree, but then I strongly disagree with Lelouch's mindset from the start. Lelouch would certainly agree with you; I consider abandoning the responsibilities you can fulfill and gain assistance afterwards with to be the better choice than to run off with no plan past "show up = save sister."
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It doesn't mean he liked the idea of leaving the battlefield.
I never said it did. It doesn't change the fact that he did it, and that the consequences of his choice deserve to be remembered alongside what his choice was.
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As a similar example, if Kallen was told that her birth-mother is in danger, I am CERTAIN she would run off in the middle of the battle too.
That doesn't make it a good choice, though.

If Kallen runs off in the middle of a battle in her Knightmare because her mother is held hostage, what does she expect to do? In the time she takes to get there, they could have moved her. Even if they didn't, what is she going to do in her machine when they simply stand behind her bed with guns pointed at her head? Shoot them?

No, the better choice would be for Kallen to finish the battle and get Zero's help. If they already kill her mother by that point, it's a pretty strong indication that they would have anyone had she not immediately complied with basic commands like "get out of your knightmare," "let us handcuff you," "tell us everything about the Black Knights and Zero."


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Fighting Britannia is important, but for Lulu like many in BK, it is only a means to an end. You must never confuse the battle for what you are actually fighting for.
So what?

I've never denied that Lelouch process can be described as "Nunaly>Revenge on Britannia =(plan around) friends>Black Knights/Japan>everything else."

Just because Lelouch considers the Black Knights pawns for his goal doesn't excuse abandoning them. Lelouch may consider it acceptable, but I don't. Lelouch's rescue attempt for Nunally was hasty, unplanned, and done at the expense of the very people Lelouch had driven to be completely dependent on him. Lelouch's thoughts on the value of his army don't somehow absolve him of the responsibilities that come with the position of its leader, including the blame when he abandons them. Arguing so enters the grounds of absolute moral relativism, which ironically isn't something Lelouch does.

Lelouch doesn't care, and doesn't try and excuse his actions. For him, Nunally> all. He doesn't care beyond that, which doesn't make him right.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:10   Link #445
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
And in the end, that responsibility comes down to remembering that he did sacrifice thousands for the sake of simply trying to rescue Nunaly.
He left the battlefield to safeguard his reason to fight. Lulu can't concentrate on the battlefield one way or another so they would lose anyway. And he didn't sacrifice anyone; it isn't his fault BK members couldn't defend themselves without him. It's not like they were unprotected or unarmed. Sacrifice is the wrong word.

Quote:
So what?

I've never denied that Lelouch process can be described as "Nunaly>Revenge on Britannia =(plan around) friends>Black Knights/Japan>everything else."

Just because Lelouch considers the Black Knights pawns for his goal doesn't excuse abandoning them. Lelouch may consider it acceptable, but I don't. Lelouch's rescue attempt for Nunally was hasty, unplanned, and done at the expense of the very people Lelouch had driven to be completely dependent on him. Lelouch's thoughts on the value of his army don't somehow absolve him of the responsibilities that come with the position of its leader, including the blame when he abandons them. Arguing so enters the grounds of absolute moral relativism, which ironically isn't something Lelouch does.

Lelouch doesn't care, and doesn't try and excuse his actions. For him, Nunally> all. He doesn't care beyond that, which doesn't make him right.
Let me ask you then; does the Black Knight members care what ZERO thinks?

Of course not. They just want their country back, and isn't going to say no to a good thing when a savior dropped in and take up the job no one else is good enough for. BK cared about Zero about as much as Zero cared about them; there is a goal they want, and the other person is needed for things to work.

Saying that Lulu is inconsiderate of the BK members is rather pointless when most BK members were inconsiderate of Zero's own position. And in the end, the reason everything ended up the way it did in season 2 right now is the same as last season; Zero need BK, and BK needed Zero even more.

Quote:
If I'm a squad leader in a firefight, and then suddenly learn that some stranger has kidnapped my sister, it would be absurd of me to simply run away from the firefight and my men, hop on a plane to the States, and assume that I alone could somehow rescue her.
You forgot the part where there is an unseen powerful enemy who murdered your mother and is still out there, likely still want to kill the rest of your family. And that there is no one else who can rescue her because if Britannian troops or Police get to her first she can very well be sent right back to the Emperor or even your unseen enemy.

And let me ask you, why were you the squadleader in that firefight? Because if you joined the battle to protect your sister, what's the point of winning the fight if she dies?

Why did YOU fight in that squad? For fun? Money? Power?
Quote:
That's what leadership is, making the hard choice. Unfortunately for Lelouch, the less wrong choice would have been to take the one he could actually accomplish and to fulfill the responsibilities he had made for himself.
His responsibility is to his sister. I am sorry if you think that is somehow wrong. But it is his choice to decide what is important to him, not you.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:18   Link #446
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Granted as well, though of course Euphie was offering him what he wanted with his sister.
Yes and no. She was offering an alternate means of getting what he wanted for his sister, which was, in his opinion, more prone to failure than the one he was already using.

Quote:
Not granted. Most of the first season even to the very last episode, Lulu was trying to co-opt Suzaku into helping him take revenge. Most of the times he saved Suzaku (from situations Zero himself set into motion), he then tried to make Suzaku join him. And while he definitely took hostages and manipulated events to leave Suzaku alive in the uprising, he never put Suzaku ahead of revenge. Alongside of, or to be planned around, yes, but only Nunaly got put ahead.
That really depends on how you define "put ahead". He lied to Nunally and started neglecting her a bit, for the sake of his plans. But he dropped them like a hot potato the instant he started fearing for her immediate safety.

As for Suzaku: he saved his life, didn't try to have him assassinated and refrained from using Geass to "turn" him, which would have been the most expedient (though it'd pose reliability problems). He only used his geass when it became necessary to save both of their lives.

On the whole, I agree with your analysis of Lelouch. His desertion during the Black Rebellion was a mistake and a betrayal, though an understandable one. Urabe and Kallen forgave him, in the end.

It does show that for all his ruthlessness and cunning, he's got a few serious emotional weaknesses.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:32   Link #447
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It does show that for all his ruthlessness and cunning, he's got a few serious emotional weaknesses.
A man who has nothing but ruthlessness and cunning, is not a man but a monster. And that kind of monster is what the Emperor appear to be. The Emperor is exactly the kind of man who would keep fighting a battle and not blink about news of family members being in danger. He will win battles, wars, and right now want to challenge the Gods. But he is a man with no heart.

You call them "emotional weaknesses', I call them emotions period. If your emotion don't control your actions, then you don't really have any emotions at all. Such was the man who would not blink at the news that the woman who gave him two children was murdered. Such was the man who would use his own flesh and blood to distract the Japanese government and to sacrifice them so he could perform a surprise attack.

Lulu is not the perfect commander, his father is. But then, a perfect commander is a heartless monster, so that's hardly a bad thing.
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Old 2008-05-07, 08:57   Link #448
evil|plushie
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If Lelouch had abandoned Nanali during that battle, he would have turned out to be like Light from death note.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:00   Link #449
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
If Lelouch had abandoned Nanali during that battle, he would have turned out to be like Light from death note.
That moment was essentially the crossroads; Lulu could stay true to his path, or become a carbon copy of his father. He chose to stay true to his path.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:11   Link #450
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
A man who has nothing but ruthlessness and cunning, is not a man but a monster. And that kind of monster is what the Emperor appear to be. The Emperor is exactly the kind of man who would keep fighting a battle and not blink about news of family members being in danger. He will win battles, wars, and right now want to challenge the Gods. But he is a man with no heart.

You call them "emotional weaknesses', I call them emotions period. If your emotion don't control your actions, then you don't really have any emotions at all. Such was the man who would not blink at the news that the woman who gave him two children was murdered. Such was the man who would use his own flesh and blood to distract the Japanese government and to sacrifice them so he could perform a surprise attack.

Lulu is not the perfect commander, his father is. But then, a perfect commander is a heartless monster, so that's hardly a bad thing.
So you think letting the world burn for the sake of making some useless gesture is good? As in all things, it's a matter of balance. Even accepting it's ok to see Nunally as most important person in the world, more important, in fact, that the whole world, what he did was hardly optimal.

His father doesn't love, Lelouch does. It's true, and Lelouch is a better person for it, I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that what he did wasn't good, or the best choice he could have made. His love is both a quality and a flaw. At the same time. In that one instance, the flaw aspect beat out the quality one.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:14   Link #451
evil|plushie
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It's true, it is a flaw and not the most optimal decision but if he hadn't done so, I think Lelouch would never have forgiven himself.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:17   Link #452
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So you think letting the world burn for the sake of making some useless gesture is good? As in all things, it's a matter of balance. Even accepting it's ok to see Nunally as most important person in the world, more important, in fact, that the whole world, what he did was hardly optimal.

His father doesn't love, Lelouch does. It's true, and Lelouch is a better person for it, I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that what he did wasn't good, or the best choice he could have made. His love is both a quality and a flaw. At the same time. In that one instance, the flaw aspect beat out the quality one.
The world did not burn. Please, don't exaggerate. If the world burns, Nunnally can't survive either. He could start a new Rebellion (and did), but he had only one Nunnally.

And as I kept saying, your view that he made the wrong choice came from the idea that he should somehow keep fighting even though his mind is no longer on the job, even though he could lose the battle AND lose his sister if he stayed.

If Nunnally was kidnapped to lure Lulu, but Lulu didn't show, that means Lulu doesn't care enough about her. For the kidnapper, that would also mean Nunnally is now useless to keep alive. A hostage that was useless as a hostage is not worth anything at all.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:25   Link #453
Anh_Minh
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Even just the fact he couldn't keep his mind on the job - and made some mistakes like snapping at one of his men - is a sign of weakness.

And even accepting that he had to show up to save Nunally - he could have done a bit more to insure the BK weren't completely lost.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:30   Link #454
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Even just the fact he couldn't keep his mind on the job - and made some mistakes like snapping at one of his men - is a sign of weakness.

And even accepting that he had to show up to save Nunally - he could have done a bit more to insure the BK weren't completely lost.
Sign of weakness again? You are sounding more and more like the Emperor every post. A "non-weak" Lulu might have freed Japan faster than the current Lulu, but the "non-weak" version would simply take over as the new despot and Japan would be no better off.

Strength is more than just winning battles; it is also about having something left to fight for when the dust settles.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:37   Link #455
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The world did not burn. Please, don't exaggerate. If the world burns, Nunnally can't survive either. He could start a new Rebellion (and did), but he had only one Nunnally.

And as I kept saying, your view that he made the wrong choice came from the idea that he should somehow keep fighting even though his mind is no longer on the job, even though he could lose the battle AND lose his sister if he stayed.

If Nunnally was kidnapped to lure Lulu, but Lulu didn't show, that means Lulu doesn't care enough about her. For the kidnapper, that would also mean Nunnally is now useless to keep alive. A hostage that was useless as a hostage is not worth anything at all.
i have to agree with Vallen it was practically impossible for Lulu to continue the fight when this mind was in a wreck on whether nunnally was dead or alive you think after the Mao kidnapping nunnally incident he was going to ignore it?!?

When lulu left the battlefield to find nunnally it wasnt a mistake, the was the most reasonable option, even if he didnt go to look for her do you think his mind was even in a calm state to continue the battle?

Are you saying that if you where at CEO meeting and you got a phone call that your son was just in an accident that you wouldnt dash out that freaking door and head towards the hospital? Yeah sure you may lose your job, but your sons health comes first.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:43   Link #456
Anh_Minh
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I don't pretend to be non-weak. In fact, I'm so weak, in his place I might go catatonic, which is an even worse option.

But I still don't see how letting emotion deprive you of your faculties is supposed to be good. Or why being rational and self-controlled means you'll turn into a monster.

I suspect that the disaster that day is several mistakes, in fact. His leaving just being the last in the chain. The first one would be not making sure Toudou knew the plan well enough to take over if Lelouch had a problem. "Miracle Toudou" is supposedly a good commander. He should have been able to hold it together better. (Or was he disabled or something? I don't remember clearly.)
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:45   Link #457
evil|plushie
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I think Anh minh is looking at it from a purely logical POV, that Lelouch's emotions led him to making a non-optimal decision at that point of time. Logically speaking, that's correct but then again, humans aren't the most logical of people. Even Lelouch, who's very logical.

And the comparison of the situation between being a CEO and a Commander is way off. At the meeting, you're just responsible for your own life and maybe your family as well. As the commander of the OoTBK, you're responsible for the lifes of everyone else.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:51   Link #458
Anh_Minh
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I'm reminded of Darker than Black.

Spoiler for Darker than Black:


That's what I mean. Being rational, not letting your emotions get the better of you, doesn't mean you turn into a monster.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:54   Link #459
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm reminded of Darker than Black.

Spoiler for Darker than Black:


That's what I mean. Being rational, not letting your emotions get the better of you, doesn't mean you turn into a monster.
Funny you brought that up, because under the same position Lulu will do the same thing too. Lulu will GLADLY give his life to protect Nunnally. That isn't about rationality; it is about doing what you want to do, what you NEED to do.
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Old 2008-05-07, 09:56   Link #460
vspirit
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...i agree in that when the writers made Lelouch go to his sister's rescue rather than stay to fight, they managed to preserve the essential part of Lelouch that they've first presented to the world. The part that sets him apart from other macchiavelian/megalomaniac characters that seem to be quite popular these days and makes him more identifiable to the rest of us.

But I wouldn't call what he did reasonable. In fact, he threw all reason to the wind when he chose to abandon ship to get his sister back, even if the entire reason that the said ship even exists is because of her. Emotions are very seldom reasonable. I'll call what he did understandable, because we know where his true loyalty lies first and foremost, and we know that it is also what fuels his ambitions, but definitely not reasonable.
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