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Old 2009-07-15, 20:19   Link #4681
Kytherno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Uh... no, not really, actually. With the mask, Sayoko has decent facial proportions to fill in Lelouch's profile. A Sayoko mask on Lelouch would probably make his head look slightly larger than normal. Of course, this is disbarring standard animation physics.

But for all intents and purposes, Lelouch is confirmed to be dead while Sayoko is confirmed to be alive. It'd be best to just accept the fact or, if you want to continue believing in Lelouch's survival, just not bring it up on this forum. It has a nasty tendency to spark flame wars among the more serious fans of the show.

(Hint: I'm not a serious fan)
I know Lelouch is dead, I'm not believing he survived.

I'm just saying, it might be possible.

So I guess I'll let the next person to post change the subject.
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Old 2009-07-15, 20:30   Link #4682
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Consider it further disproven by Sayoko's appearance and friendly conversation with Viletta in the final Picture Drama.
Irrelevant, but perhaps Sayoko knew about ZR, but was hiding it?
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Old 2009-07-15, 22:36   Link #4683
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Irrelevant, but perhaps Sayoko knew about ZR, but was hiding it?
"Perhaps"? From what I gathered, she was in on it the entire time. After all, she was with the others who said that they had been forced by Lelouch to accomplish his ends. And a fairly wide amount of people knew the true purpose of Zero Requiem, among them Lelouch's bodyguard Jeremiah... which is the same role Sayoko held, so I doubt she'd not know about it.
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Old 2009-07-16, 01:30   Link #4684
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
"Perhaps"? From what I gathered, she was in on it the entire time. After all, she was with the others who said that they had been forced by Lelouch to accomplish his ends. And a fairly wide amount of people knew the true purpose of Zero Requiem, among them Lelouch's bodyguard Jeremiah... which is the same role Sayoko held, so I doubt she'd not know about it.
I was just responding to the part about her wanting him dead, in relation to her friendly response to Villetta.
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Old 2009-07-16, 01:33   Link #4685
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
I was just responding to the part about her wanting him dead, in relation to her friendly response to Villetta.
Oh, yeah. Okay.
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Old 2009-07-16, 02:19   Link #4686
bladeofdarkness
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putting aside the fact that its made clear by word of god that he is dead
would lelouch doing something like that not make him even more of a douche bag then he would be had he simply been immortal and faked his death ?

think about it for a second
not only would it mean that after doing all the shit that he did during Z-R lelouch would wiggle his way out of paying for it (unlike suzaku)
not only would he sacrifice the lives of untold thousends if not millions of unrelated people for the sake of it
but he would also have sayoko sacrifice HERSELF so he can get away with it ?
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Old 2009-07-17, 11:15   Link #4687
Sonae
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Yes, another one. But this one is slightly different. I hope you ALL vote in it.

Arena 25
Kyon vs Lelouch

This in the first time these two have faced each since KSBM 2008 (Korean Super Best Moe). Lelouch may have beat Kyon by over 2000 votes then, but most characters that come from KSBM/KBM usually do poorly in ISML (International Saimoe League). But, with the dying Geass fandom, and the recent revival of the Haruhi Fandom, there may be a little trouble. Not to mention the NewType polls may be a foreshadoing of what is to come.

So please help by voting for Lelouch!!!

Here:

http://www.internationalsaimoe.com/voting/

Image Support!

Spoiler for Images:


Also, please, if you can, support Alice (From Pandora Hearts) in Arena 22 (Against Felli Loss from Chrome Shelled Regios)

*Note : You MUST vote in arena 1 for your vote to count, so please don't abstain there.

Thank you so much for your votes. I'm sorry for taking up your time. -bows kindly-

Sorry if some are reposts
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Old 2009-07-25, 16:23   Link #4688
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Not trying to restart the is Lelouch alive flame war, I just thought this fanfiction was pretty cool. Tell me what ya think of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEAAa...eature=related
Like I said this is fanfiction, so don't start screaming that he's alive please. Not sure if anyone here's seen this, so I thought i'd share.
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Old 2009-07-26, 00:31   Link #4689
zongetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon
It has a nasty tendency to spark flame wars among the more serious fans of the show.
Thats right. Zongetsu=> F***in Serious Fan

There isnt even a flame war...its more like i got a torch and they, "dead group" has a match. No competition.

So anyways, blade, you are absolutely correct in saying that lelouch would be a douche bag for sacrificing Sayako. However, that idea is completely obliterated when you learn that she has survived in the final PD. (repeated)

Besides...it would have been ooc for lelouch to sacrifice anymore lives for his cause. The cause to change the world. It was his sin to bear alone. He is the one who destroys and creates worlds.

You guys, "dead group", just pile a lot of crap on top of each other using petty things for excuses. Lelouch didnt use ZR as an excuse to die. He used it as a symbol, to break the chain of hate and unify the world.

Suzaku, ill bring him up. This kid always though that he wanted to die. He joined the military because he thought he could atone and change the world from within. But in the end, even after hearing himself say the he wished to die, he said that he didnt. Anyone remember his and CC conversation in r2 ep 21?

CC: We're similar, you and I.
Suzaku: Similar?
CC: How we both long for death, yet are unable to die.
...later....
CC: I used Lelouch. I knew everything, yet I prioritized just keeping him alive to accomplish my own goal of dying.
Suzaku: Are you regretting it?
CC: Of course not. I'm a witch with eternal life., I've thrown every human aspect of myself away.
Suzaku: You and I aren't alike at all.

For one. You can tell CC is lying. That is her mask, she is too proud. And two, "you and i arent alike at all" vs "were similar you and i"

If CC wished for death, as she said, and suzaku said im not like you...then suzaku no longer wishes for death...

Which means that lelouch would either because he didnt need nunnally as a purpose for his life anymore. He was his own reason. "Even so, i desire a tommorow!" *note* lelouch also states a couple times that it was CC who "gave" him life. ep 7 being dead until he met her, and ep 24 where as she allowed him to move forward.

Tommorow is the future, wanting a future sounds nothing like wanting death. As to sacrificing countless people, it had to be done. No matter what. It was not only for his cause, but euphies cause as well. He had to become something the world could hate, a symbol of hate. Something to break the chain of hatred and have the world born anew. Listen to the "duet" conversation that Suzaku and Lelouch had in ep 5.

Suzaku: the hateful cycle repeats itself again and again.
Lelouch: The same foolish repetition.
Suzaku: Someone has to stop the cycle. Of course the one who does should not have to lose everything.
Lelouch: Im not so arragont so...
Suzaku: I want to at least keep those whom i hold dear. To give them a world without war.

I dont know...perhaps a foreshadow? Just like CC's "You have to push away what you really treasure." That came back pretty fast.

Got off of the topic....

So anyways...the point of ZR was not for him to die, nor was it for him to atone. It was to allow the world to move forward by breaking the chain of hate. And if you didnt know already...ZR was even created until after r2 ep 21. Aye...jeez people.

*cough cough* lmfao?

Lelouch wiggling his way out when suzaku didnt? I dont know, but if you watched it, suzaku obviously wiggled his way out of lancelot. Just like lelouch he too lived. However his old self died. That was the price. Who is suzaku now? Not suzaku kurugi, but merely zero. Maybe we should just call him zero now eh?

The people who knew of ZR are the following: Cecile, Rolo, Lloyd, CC, Suzaku, Jeremiah, Sayako, Nina, Lelouch himself, and presumbly Kallen. However it is still unknown whether or not anyone else figured it out. Well, maybe i forgot someone, but oh well. However the range was not very wide.

Think about it
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Old 2009-07-26, 01:00   Link #4690
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Hmm...

Spoiler for My Response:
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Old 2009-07-26, 01:58   Link #4691
zongetsu
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hmmm.....

not on topic
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Old 2009-07-26, 02:35   Link #4692
bladeofdarkness
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i cant believe your still here zongetsu

three things

1)there is no "dead group"
there is the "he's just hiding" minority group like yourself (people who refuse to accept the truth, as spelled out by word of god and the actual SHOW)
and then there is the rest of the anime watching world who have accepted it and moved on

2)one of the first things lelouch said when getting the geass and using it for the first time was "the only ones who are allowed to shoot, are those who are prepared to BE shot"
this appears in the first ep of the show
and its echoed in the last one (as the reason WHY he would be willing to die for the plan)
which makes lelouch huge hypocrite and an all around douche bag if he wont stand behind his own words about that and simply cheat his way out

3)why do you want him to be alive ?
with the exception of his death, everything ELSE he does in the final arc makes him an ass-hole villain (including actual strategy)
only his death keeps the question of whether or not he's a hero or a villain ambiguous
removing that sacrifice, also removes the only heroic thing he does in the end of the show, and turns him completely into a villain
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Old 2009-07-26, 03:54   Link #4693
zongetsu
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Believe it or not...I am here

and i believe that you are interpreting his own line completely wrong. The biggest part that you have wrong already for one is, he didnt really shoot anyone (except euphy) and he did not die from a gun shot.

"only those willing to be shot can shoot," he said something like that. The best way to interpret that line is to say it like this "only shoot if you are willing to accept the consequences."

That means before you do anything, you have to be ready for the consequences. Shoot someone, and expect to be shot. However, even when you are "shot", you do not necessarily die do you? I just completely ripped that line from you.

The next biggest issue here is you own personal feelings toward his actions. You feel that because he killed thousands upon thousands of people that he deserves to die. If he died, he would be your #1 character, if he lived, you'd drop him in a heartbeat. That is biased.

And...there is a "dead group" consisting of haters, such as yourself, Kalulu fans, such as yourself, and people who can't think for themselves, such as yourself.

As for words of god. Maybe you too interpreted them wrong. Perhaps it was a misunderstanding on what he said. Okouchi in his interview never specifically said "lelouch died". He merely met his end, his story came to a full stop. His story was that of a boy who grew up and changed the world. That was it, that was his story. With his "epic" death, the reign of the tyrant lelouch vi britannia ended. In that instant, the world was free, his story ended.

Anyone here watch MMA? Kimbo slice was the talk, but after getting knocked out in like 10 seconds, his story too ended. A full stop, just as lelouch's.

I do acknowledge however that on that day, lelouch did meet his fate by meeting death. However afterwards, on the account that he had the code was revived. It was this revived lelouch that we see in the end. He was reborn.

Okouchi did say a lot of stuff, but nothing was mentioned about what happened afterwards. Was lelouch buried, what happened to everyone else? The forgotten guy here, the director/co-writer did say that the ending was up to the viewers to decide didnt he? So that's already a clash on Okochis part saying that the staff reached a consensus. Lie. Why would you believe one god, and not the other?

You see, in some cases i can bend things ever so slightly to make it fit. However you cannot in any way period.

Heres an example of what i mean. You know, in the guide book it said lelouch never yearned for CC as a mother figure or as a lover? Well...he didnt. Not really anyways. CC always had to make the first move. Always. He did "yearn" because he never made a move on her. For example, in r2 ep 24, who moved first for the kiss? Lelouch or CC? CC. It was after she moved that he moved.

Ntm, it is also stated that lelouch never had any time for romance as he was constantly planning ahead. Look in the beginning of the first series, he was portrayed sleeping in his classes. So...i guess he really never yearned for anyone? Yep...

Ntm, it kills the kallen thing "little wish" because it states that he wanted her to fulfill her own dreams, not his. He didnt love her...nope, not even close. Ace pilot that is all.

Damn...why must i fire all the guns?

One more point to prove. In order for everything to make sense, all the pieces must fit correctly. If they dont, you have a problem. Now the biggest problem that i see with the "dead group" is that they have a huge missing hole where "nunnally can see peoples hearts?". Sure she can...or is it because lelouch merged consciousnesses with her?

You know...we saw something just like it in ep 11. Very very similar.

Where is morbofist? He has to be here to tell me that it works, "just because".
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Old 2009-07-26, 04:09   Link #4694
bladeofdarkness
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1)he is shown dying
he is never mentioned to be alive by ANYONE (the only mentions of him is as dead)
and he himself states that he HAS to die
the "only those.." line simply means "the only ones allowed to kill are those who are prepered to be killed themselves"

2)my personal feelings dont prevent the fact that he acts like a villain in the final arc, and so arent a factor
even his battle field strategy is based around the idea that while HE is a villain, the OOBK are not, and so would prevent shnizel (who doesnt care) from killing the hostages and instead opt to fight him normally
remove his death, and your left with a villain protagonist all the way

3)there is not "dead group" in the same way that there is no "the tooth fairy isnt really" group
there IS however a "elvis is still alive group" and its a good analogy for what you are

4)and finally
the burden of proof is on you
if you want to claim he is alive you have to produce evidence that SAYS he is alive
not theories, but EVIDENCE, a statement made by anyone (fictional character or real life person) that can not be interpreted in any other way but "he's the cart driver"
and there is nothing that you can bring that is not depended entirely on YOUR interpretaion
on the other hand, the statement "he's dead" repeated to frustration by every release since, does not require interpretaion
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Old 2009-07-26, 05:10   Link #4695
Sol Falling
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lol. Some people need to learn that just because they can rationalize something to a degree that they find it plausible doesn't actually make them any less wrong. You seem pretty confident, Zongetsu. And I have to say, the incongruency between the level of confidence you display and the actual worth of your arguments seriously makes me laugh. You have a 'torch' while all the people who believe Lelouch is dead have is a match?

To put it simply, people who believe Lelouch is dead aren't haters, they've simply actually followed his actual character development. You seem to have missed it completely. Why did Lelouch lose everything that ever mattered to him just before entering the World of C if not to allow the creation of a plan that required he no longer have a reason for living? Why would Lelouch discover that the vengeance and enemies he had so long been pursuing didn't actually exist if not to teach him that the crimes he committed had no meaning, so that he had to atone by making them meaningful? To say that the form of Zero Requiem was a result of some pure altruistic 'necessity' to make the world a better place is so ridiculous it isn't even funny. Zero Requiem wasn't a objective solution of justice, it was a specific conclusion tailored by the specific desires of the people who created it. Suzaku wanted to inflict vengeance upon Euphie's killer and the restoration of her good memory, while Lelouch wanted to bury the mess that he created behind a blank slate and the emptiness of death (that's what 'destroyer and creator of worlds' means, btw. To bury the pain and mistakes of the past beneath a clean and unblemished future.). And that's what they did.


I have to ridicule just one last thing you said, though. The idea of a "Lelouch is alive" supporter accusing their opposition of having holes in their scenario is just so ironic I can hardly believe it. Dude, are you serious? Are you sure you aren't a troll? If that's the one 'hole' you can even find in this scenario, then let me just end this by asking you this: can you even prove that those scenes were actually 'visions' that Nunally 'saw'?
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Old 2009-07-26, 05:20   Link #4696
bladeofdarkness
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now THAT is a well written argument Sol
Nicccccccccce
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Old 2009-07-26, 05:32   Link #4697
zongetsu
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remember when i said that because of where i stand i can bend things and you cant? Well in this case, you can bend it that much because of one small thing. Shooting at someone does not necessarily kill them does it?

With that line, you are implying that it is only for himself and not others. Well, look at suzaku, "only those prepared to be shot can shoot," well, suzaku obviously lived now, and he shot quite a bit no? Why would something like that only apply to himself? It is a theme after all no?

Aye...and you blind yourself in you own illusion. You see, its not that you influenced his actions, it that you would have been influenced by it. If he lived, he's a douche. If he died, he's a hero.

Those thoughts by themselves are biased. Listen to them. You believe that he can only be a douche if he survived. You account on his actions and already decided an outcome for him. If it isnt your desired, you have a fit. Like now...

Finally, what you're trying to "burden" me with is the impossible.

Heres a little example of what i mean.

THeres a guy in a room, no windows, one door. YOu lock him in with a cookie. YOu come back and its gone. Who did it? The only guy in the room. I have no hardcore evidence, i didnt see him eat it, but i know he did it.

Am i wrong? No. Did he eat it. Yes. How did i know? Common f**kin sense.

If i was to do the same to you...i would clearly ask you two things. ONe being, show me proof that nunnally can see hearts/developed super god powers in a year time, and two, prove to me that after ZR lelouch was not revived with the code. I did say he died no? But that is how the code has been shown to work.

However being as i dont have the "hardcore" evidence you desire, i will stick to Taniguchi's explanation. The ending is up to the viewers to decide.

So anyways

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness
not theories, but EVIDENCE, a statement made by anyone (fictional character or real life person) that can not be interpreted in any other way but "he's the cart driver"
When it comes to the important lines, most of the time they are cut off. However ill pull up a few to satisfy you.

Ep 10

"lelouch, why are you lelouch? You kept you christian name yet changed your family name to lelouch. You simply could not forget the past now could you?"

Could not forget the past...however if his name, his mask was no longer lelouch, he could forget it all. Perhaps RR?R2? Prove that point wrong if you disagree, however i have NEVER seen anything that has disproved that. Ntm that if he left society that he did...he would have to forget his past.

Ep 5

"however the one who does should not have to lose everything"

Suzaku's little speech on how the one who breaks the chain of hatred should not have to lose everything.

Ep 24-25

If you are a witch, then i shall become a warlock.

Favorite quote, and warlocks are a male version of witch. Witch immortal, Warlock is immortal as well. A good foreshadow.

*not really a quote, but nunnally as the pink crane symbolized in R2 ep 6 on the chess board.*

This leads to it being on the cart in the end. The crane however has no true meaning to CC. It means more to lelouch.

R2 ep 14

CC: It was my fault for neglecting you. Therefore, I will end the Geass lineage here.
It will most likely be my and Lelouch's...

This quote can truly only be interpreted one way. And that is if she is implying that she and lelouch together can stop the geass lineage. If a bond was formed between her and lelouch, and he became a warlock as he promised. Geass would die out. Not only would it be her wish, but his as well. Code bearers only give geass to those whom they believe can grant their wish. CC believed Lelouch could...hences the "my and lelouch's....(bond?)"

R2 ep 15

"shes my...my..."

Cannot be interpreted as anything unimportant. Its obvious she is important to him. Have it be lover or friend, CC is important to lelouch.

R2 ep 21

"even so, i desire a tommorow!"

Desiring a tommorow has nothing to do with death

R2 ep 22

Zero Requiem called "strategic" by Suzaku. Note that ZR was not the events leading up to lelouch's death, but was indeed his death and the change in the world at that time, "ah...thats Zero Requiem".-r2 ep 25

R2 ep 24

"you will smile for me no?"-CC

Somethings going one between them....

R2 ep 25

Lelouch uses the word gamble twice...once in the anime, once in his song. He had no need to gamble on the outcome of ZR...it was ensured, he said so, however...you know what im implying.

combine all that stuff together + "geass is the power of kings, it will isolate you, but i guess thats a little wrong, nah lelouch?"

and you get him alive (please explain to me once more how the hell you get "cc being alone" to being a little wrong, if she is alone? She would be alone if lelouch died...he was alone the entire time. Good symbolism in r2 ep 23)

Some geass stuff...

CC states that her wish is to die, and that the geass user has the ability to kill the code bearer, the one whom bestowed them geass.

However the logic is severly flawed when she says that charles had achieved that level. She did not grant him geass, VV did over 50 years ago. *side note* If she did though...that would mean that he "illegally" took VV code. Oh oh...

If charles was able to violate contracts then there must have been other flaws as well. For instance, Charles said, you cant geass gods! Lelouch geass the gods. I should be immortal! yet im being devoured by the world of C?! You lost your immortality kido...

man i wrote too much...some of thats not even on topic...

but anyways...your logic is flawed. I just have to tell you. You expect all the answers from me, yet deliver none yourself.

Ask yourself, "is there a statement that says he isnt the cart driver?" Think about it. Can you prove to me, how you expect me to "prove" to you? I have that promo pic. But do you have a promo pic of his grave? Why are things so one sided now? No idea.

I looked at the red apple and know its red. Someone told you the red apple was yellow and you believed them. *sigh*...
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Old 2009-07-26, 05:36   Link #4698
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zongetsu View Post

Ask yourself, "is there a statement that says he isnt the cart driver?" Think about it. Can you prove to me, how you expect me to "prove" to you? I have that promo pic. But do you have a promo pic of his grave? Why are things so one sided now? No idea.

I looked at the red apple and know its red. Someone told you the red apple was yellow and you believed them. *sigh*...
Lmao.
Haha, dude, that would be creepy, what would you expect? Newtype to have a grave-shot, with blood effects to add in the darkness of Lelouch's death or something?
Haha, that was nice. lol

Also, no, you look at the yellow apple and you paint it on your own in the red color. Dude, if you tell someone "good morning" that someone will look outside and it will be raining. fffff
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Old 2009-07-26, 05:53   Link #4699
bladeofdarkness
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stop making huge tl;dr posts
it doesnt get your point across, it just makes you harder to follow (since you stray off topic too much)

i dont have to bend anything about the statement
it means "if you arent prepared to be killed, then you have no right to kill others"
thats it
thats why he uses it to bitch about what the JLF did to the hostages and what clovis did to shinjiku

none of the quotes you just wrote indicates that he is alive
all are nice, and have relevence to OTHER points
but not that he is alive

and, just to be a dick (and as pay back for the "just an ace pilot comment)
let me help sink that ship of yours just a little bit more beyond what word of god did
Spoiler for me, being mean:
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Old 2009-07-26, 05:56   Link #4700
zongetsu
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omg this is probably going to be a double post....

Believe it or not...i am very VERY confident in what i represent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sol falling
To put it simply, people who believe Lelouch is dead aren't haters, they've simply actually followed his actual character development.
Well you see, blade here has an issue. I followed his developement as well and he went from a naive child to a mature adult. Even though his actions were unpure, his overall intentions were pure. If he had failed, the world would have fallen under his father or schneizel. It was to happen at all cost. Kind of like batman. Kinda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sol falling
Why did Lelouch lose everything that ever mattered to him just before entering the World of C if not to allow the creation of a plan that required he no longer have a reason for living?
I really have no idea what you are saying here but ill say this. He didnt lose it on purpose. It was all played out by Schneizel. Because of this lelouch lost faith in himself and demanded that he settled it once and for all with his father. The lost of Nunnally and the "destruction" of the black knights was all engineered by Schneizel.

The plan however was not created until after Charles and Marianne disappeared. They said themselves in r2 ep 25 that we learned in the world of C that people desire tomorrow. It was then too, that lelouch must have promised Suzaku the right to kill him. However we can see clearly at the end that Suzaku is in "pain". Ntm, it was not for nunnally's sake anymore. Hence, character development, r2 ep 24, he stated that he will take out nunnally if necessary to complete ZR.

Now im reading the rest and you seriously like to fumble with words. Are you trying to tell me, that Marianne and Charles specifically screwed with lelouch to show him that his actions were meaningless? That his existance was futile? Or are you talking about when suzaku told lelouch if he was to lie lie till the end, to make them real?

And then again...

you only have one part of suzaku's goals right. Vengence on Euphies killer. However the other, the covering of Blood stained Euphies name resides with lelouch. He was the one who instated it. It was his mess to clean, not only was it for suzaku, but himself as well.

then the rest of it has nothing to do with anything he said in the end about becoming a symbol of hate, to break the chain of hatred. To allow the world to move forward.

If it wasnt to change the world, then what was it for? To die? He could have done that anytime you know.

Prove the scene to be true...

Well, if you look at her reaction compared to Lelouch reaction in ep 11, its very similar. The moment they lay their hands on the code bearer, their eyes widen and it cuts to a scene. What they see however cannot be controlled, it just happened that nunnally was able to see pretty much everything. And then afterward having a realization they didnt have before. So, if she didnt see anything...how did she know? By feeling his blood? His dying pulse? No, it was "merging of consciousness."

Now you guys are the ones being ridiculous. Asking mediocre questions. So wait..youre telling me that suzaku gets to endure the hardships of the future while lelouch gets off scott free? No worries at all?

quit screwing around.
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