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Old 2009-08-11, 01:36   Link #4841
Zetsubou Bunny
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In most instances I wouldn't say that he's cold-heated so much as he is...uh...mislead I guess. He just has different ideals than everyone else; it's part of his character. Doesn't make him cold-hearted per se. He's just confused..

Lelouch is selfishly unselfish.
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Old 2009-08-11, 01:47   Link #4842
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Well, the thing about Lelouch is that we know he loves people and cares about people and I think we can safely say that he knows that a lot of what he does is wrong, but he's a very Machiovellian kind of guy (the ends justify the means). He knows what he's doing is bad, but as long as he gets results that's all that matters (which I really don't agree with at all).

Then again, there are times where I think he enjoys himself a little too much while doing said evil things.
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Old 2009-08-11, 03:33   Link #4843
bladeofdarkness
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for a character who is suppose to be a "good" guy he sure does laugh evilly a lot
but then again, lelouch being a "good" guy is a questionable proposition in the first place once you remember that everything he does he achieves by manipulation and deceit.
well intentioned extremist is probably a better discription, but that only kicks in season 2 after he realizes that its not only about nunnaly
until then he is just a manipulative bastard villain protagonist with a morality pet and a Freudian Excuse (albiet, a good one)
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Old 2009-08-11, 03:51   Link #4844
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I don't think he was ever meant to be a 'good' guy. He pretty much accepts himself as a terrible human being.

Wow, Lelouch stops being a villain when he decides to kill himself. That sounds bad.
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Old 2009-08-11, 03:57   Link #4845
bladeofdarkness
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more like
lelouch becomes a less selfish villain when he starts working for the sake of the world rather then just himself (ep 7 of season 2)
he's practiclly an anti-hero at that stage
his death and final plan blurs the line about what he is, but he's still technically a villain (only villains make master plans like Z-R)
albeit a well intentioned extremist type, which is a vast improvement.
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Old 2009-08-11, 06:42   Link #4846
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Originally Posted by Zetsubou Bunny View Post
In most instances I wouldn't say that he's cold-heated so much as he is...uh...mislead I guess. He just has different ideals than everyone else; it's part of his character. Doesn't make him cold-hearted per se. He's just confused..

Lelouch is selfishly unselfish.
*signs that*
And I also agree that Lelouch was never supposed to be a "good guy". He's neither a villain nor a hero to me, just seriously messed up in a way that makes me want to hug him. That's how it was during the first episodes, and it didn't change, even though Lelouch himself certainly did.
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Old 2009-08-11, 06:48   Link #4847
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he starts out as a villain
he only cares about his own goal (revenge, and nunnaly) and manipulates everyone around him for that purpose.
he only joins forces with ougi's group after it becomes evident that he cant do it alone
he openly mocks the "knights of justice" trademark as hogwash, and mocks the Japanese people for being so susceptible to it.
he claims that he doesnt want to use geass on his best friend, so he instead emotionally blackmails him with info he got from mao.
he kills anyone who he deems fit to so long as it promotes his goals, even if they are on his side.
and he goes into a complete heroic BSOD the moment it becomes obvious that nunnaly doesnt "need" him anymore (showing that it was his only real motivation)

he only becomes questionable as a villain after ep 7 when he gets it into his head that its not ALL about him.
season 1 lelouch is a villain protagonist with a morality pet.
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:12   Link #4848
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he starts out as a villain
he only cares about his own goal (revenge, and nunnaly) and manipulates everyone around him for that purpose.
he only joins forces with ougi's group after it becomes evident that he cant do it alone
he openly mocks the "knights of justice" trademark as hogwash, and mocks the Japanese people for being so susceptible to it.
he claims that he doesnt want to use geass on his best friend, so he instead emotionally blackmails him with info he got from mao.
he kills anyone who he deems fit to so long as it promotes his goals, even if they are on his side.
and he goes into a complete heroic BSOD the moment it becomes obvious that nunnaly doesnt "need" him anymore (showing that it was his only real motivation)

he only becomes questionable as a villain after ep 7 when he gets it into his head that its not ALL about him.
season 1 lelouch is a villain protagonist with a morality pet.

Again, a definition thingy.
A villain:
- "a deliberate scoundrel or criminal" -> well, yes, if you define "deliberate criminal" as "deliberately going against a corrupt government".
- "a character in a story or play who opposes the hero" -> Well, obviously, Lelouch couldn't be any further from that.
- "a vile, wicked person; An extremely depraved person, or one capable or guilty of great crimes" -> the latter part of that would probably work well, the "evil" thingy, on the other hand, is subjective and would land us in a philosophical discussion

So... if we go with the "great crimes" definition, it works. Otherwise, we obviously come to very different conclusions, because to me, a selfish person who commits some terrible acts is not automatically a villain if they are also portrayed as sympathetic, likeable and the main character of a story.
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:16   Link #4849
bladeofdarkness
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your dictionary definition is too old and out dated
words change
used to be a time when gay simply ment cheerful
the definition of villain has come VERY far from the old days and can now cover a very wide range of characters
i suggest you start reading the villain definitions on TV tropes.com
lelouch would fall under well intentioned extremist
which is a villain with good intentions
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:19   Link #4850
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
your dictionary definition is too old and out dated
the definition of villain has come VERY far from the old days and can now cover a very wide range of characters
i suggest you start reading the villain definitions on TV tropes.com
lelouch would fall under well intentioned extremist
which is a villain with good intentions
Actually, just because TV tropes says something, doesn't make it more right than a dictionary definition (I also looked it up on several different sites).
"Villain" is a word open to interpretation, and our definitions simply don't match.

Edit:
...And this is purely semantics. Let's just agree that Lelouch isn't Euphie. xD
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:22   Link #4851
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lets just agree that lelouch isnt even remotely CLOSE to being euphie
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:26   Link #4852
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The problem is that just because someone is shown to be likable and sympathetic, it does not excuse their actions, as so many others have pointed out in this thread and others when the show was airing. Villain is a word that has become very open to interpretation, no question about it there, but even in the definition you gave, as you yourself has admitted, Lelouch does fall under that definition. He could have the best of intentions, although at first he did not remember, but the fact is that Lelouch has acted like a villain.
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:27   Link #4853
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
lets just agree that lelouch isnt even remotely CLOSE to being euphie
That works, too. xD

(Hum, TV tropes talks about "despite how one is supposed to cheer for the hero to succeed, there has always been a long standing interest in the villains" and things like that, and seems to be implying that the villain is always the main character's enemy. So Lelouch would only be a villain according to the well-intentioned-extremist definition if Suzaku was the protagonist, and is just a well intentioned extremist as it is... or am I missing something? It's really just semantics, but I'm curious now. xD)

Edit:
@demon_god: Yes, Lelouch falls under one of the definitions that I found, and it's the one that only appeared on one single site. He's far from being a saint, but at least in by book, that doesn't automatically make him a villain.
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:35   Link #4854
bladeofdarkness
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thats ANTAGONIST
its possible to be a hero antagonist just as it is to be a villain protagonist (light yagami is a good example of a villain protagonist)
a villain is someone who actively and systematiclly does bad things for his OWN goals
whether these goals are noble or not is what makes the difference if what kind of villain you are
lelouch is what you call a well intentioned extremist
so is suzaku
and ironiclly so is charels marianne and shnizel
draw your own conclusion
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:42   Link #4855
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thats ANTAGONIST
Actually, I think I indeed read and quoted the villain (and well intentioned extremist) thingy, not the antagonist one.
So... tell that to TV tropes, or tell me what I missed. I also saw the villain protagonist, but it's not mentioned in those two articles, or at least, I didn't see it.

Quote:
its possible to be a hero antagonist just as it is to be a villain protagonist (light yagami is a good example of a villain protagonist)
Yes, but in that case, the villain protagonist really has to be an evil son of a-... you get the idea.
It just doesn't work with Lelouch. Or at least, not for me.

Quote:
a villain is someone who actively and systematiclly does bad things for his OWN goals
whether these goals are noble or not is what makes the difference if what kind of villain you are
Give me the official definition you got that from, and I'll not disagree.

Quote:
lelouch is what you call a well intentioned extremist
so is suzaku
and ironiclly so is charels marianne and shnizel
draw your own conclusion
Well intentioned extremist != villain.
At least to me, there's a difference, and if the main character isn't very obviously supposed to be a villain, then he isn't.
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:48   Link #4856
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Actually, I think I indeed read and quoted the villain thingy, not the antagonist one.
So... tell that to TV tropes, or tell me what I missed.
there is an entire section on anti-villains that covers most of the "in between" types of villain

Quote:
Yes, but in that case, the villain protagonist really has to be an evil son of a-... you get the idea.
It just doesn't work with Lelouch. Or at least, not for me.
far from it
all it takes is for the antagonist to be a heroic character who fights for the right cause
if you want a good example, the cop guy in the fugitive is a hero antagonist, despite the hero actually being a HERO.

Quote:
Give me the official definition you got that from, and I'll not disagree.
unfortunately, that is mostly my OWN definition
the key being selfishness
a villain does things for his OWN goals, not for the general good, and lelouch starts out that way

Quote:
Well intentioned extremist != villain.
At least to me, there's a difference, and if the main character isn't very obviously supposed to be a villain, then he isn't.
Spoiler for what did you expect him to look like:

light yagami looks like a very nice guy
he also has a very noble goals in concept
doesnt make him less of a villain though
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Old 2009-08-11, 07:57   Link #4857
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
there is an entire section on anti-villains that covers most of the "in between" types of villain
Well, it wasn't mentioned in the articles that confused me. o.o

Quote:
far from it
all it takes is for the antagonist to be a heroic character who fights for the right cause
if you want a good example, the cop guy in the fugitive is a hero antagonist, despite the hero actually being a HERO.
For the antagonist to be heroic in Code Geass, he'd have to be Euphie.

Quote:
unfortunately, that is mostly my OWN definition
the key being selfishness
a villain does things for his OWN goals, not for the general good, and lelouch starts out that way
You made it sound like the one and undeniable truth.
And I just don't agree with your definition and that selfishness thingy. Humans are selfish. Lelouch has his own goals, but there's still a world of a difference between him and Yagami Light.

Quote:
light yagami looks like a very nice guy
he also has a very noble goals in concept
doesnt make him less of a villain though
Who cares about the looks?
And Light does not have all that noble goals... seeing how he wants to be a God and all.
I don't see your point. It's obvious that Light was intended as a villain. Even most of his devoted fans would agree with that - hell, I rather like the guy myself, even though he's not in the "wanna hug" category.
Lelouch, on the other hand, was clearly intended as neither good nor bad, and that's the way he came across to me ("good" and "bad" probably being another very subjective thing, but let's not get into that).
So... a matter of definition.
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Old 2009-08-11, 08:04   Link #4858
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
For the antagonist to be heroic in Code Geass, he'd have to be Euphie.
suzaku and euhpie in season 1
kallen and nunnaly in the final arc.
all its takes is to be a hero, and still oppose the protagonist for perfectly good reasons.

Quote:
You made it sound like the one and undeniable truth.
And I just don't agree with your definition and that selfishness thingy. Humans are selfish. Lelouch has his own goals, but there's still a world of a difference between him and Yagami Light.
lelouch in season one fights ONLY for his own goal
japan, zero, the OOBK, all that is just a means to an end
the only thing he cares about is nunnaly and his revenge
he lampshades this in ep 6 of season 2 when he outright states that zero and the OOBK exist solely for nunnaly's sake

Quote:
Who cares about the looks?
And Light does not have all that noble goals... seeing how he wants to be a God and all.
I don't see your point. It's obvious that Light was intended as a villain. Even most of his devoted fans would agree with that - hell, I rather like the guy myself, even though he's not in the "wanna hug" category.
Lelouch, on the other hand, was clearly intended as neither good nor bad, and that's the way he came across to me.
So... matter of definition.
the first thing lelouch does after getting his power (that LETS HIM COMMAND ANYTHING) is have a group of people (granted, they deserved it) kill themselves
followed by s psychotic smirk.
he doesnt so much gets a call to adventure as he gets a means to speed it up
he planned to take over the world even BEFORE getting the geass
there is a name for people who make "plans to take over the world"
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Old 2009-08-11, 08:17   Link #4859
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
suzaku and euhpie in season 1
Suzaku?
I disagree. Suzaku wasn't much better himself.

Quote:
kallen and nunnaly in the final arc.
all its takes is to be a hero, and still oppose the protagonist for perfectly good reasons.
The thing is that Kallen and Nunally didn't know the whole plan. Sure, they had good reasons, but that didn't make them into heros and Lelouch into a villain. Especially since we were talking about "before episode 7".

Quote:
lelouch in season one fights ONLY for his own goal
japan, zero, the OOBK, all that is just a means to an end
the only thing he cares about is nunnaly and his revenge
he lampshades this in ep 6 of season 2 when he outright states that zero and the OOBK exist solely for nunnaly's sake
So Lelouch is messed up.
This has stopped being about the word villain and is now about "was Lelouch a despisable human being?" I say no, because people are selfish by nature, and because Lelouch tried to achieve something more with that selfishness. He was a bastard more than once, but I don't see how Suzaku is a better person than him.
...And we have been over this so many times already that maybe we should just stop here and agree to disagree.

Quote:
the first thing lelouch does after getting his power (that LETS HIM COMMAND ANYTHING) is have a group of people (granted, they deserved it) kill themselves
followed by s psychotic smirk.
he doesnt so much gets a call to adventure as he gets a means to speed it up
he planned to take over the world even BEFORE getting the geass
there is a name for people who make "plans to take over the world"
And yet he is portrayed as sympathetic and likeable over and over again, whereas Light is only shown to be a giant ass, which is pretty much reflected in the way Death Note ends.
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Old 2009-08-11, 08:26   Link #4860
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Suzaku?
I disagree. Suzaku wasn't much better himself.
in season 1 ?
his goal is noble (albiet misguided)
and he acts more heroic then any other character
Quote:
The thing is that Kallen and Nunally didn't know the whole plan. Sure, they had good reasons, but that didn't make them into heros and Lelouch into a villain. Especially since we were talking about "before episode 7"
lelouch is (or at least acts like) an evil overlord
they try to stop him BECAUSE he is an evil overlord
both do it despite the fact that they love him
but they do it because they cant allow an evil overlord to take over the world no matter what their personal feelings for him may be.
thats hero antagonist.
and i'm not talking before ep 7, i'm talking about the final arc, when lelouch is trying to conquer the world and enslave humanity (and he is, its just that its step one)
and lelouch at that point of the story IS a villain, no matter how you look at it
just one with good intentions


Quote:
So Lelouch is messed up.
This has stopped being about the word villain and is now about "was Lelouch a despisable human being?" I say no, because people are selfish by nature, and because Lelouch tried to achieve something more with that selfishness. He was a bastard more than once, but I don't see how Suzaku is a better person than him.
...And we have been over this so many times already that maybe we should just stop here and agree to disagree.
it still IS about the definition of villain
villains can (and often ARE) messed up
lelouch acts solely for his own goals and manipulates everyone around him for that purpose (and at times, disposes of them when they have outlived their usefulness)
thats a villain

Quote:
And yet he is portrayed as sympathetic and likeable over and over again, whereas Light is only shown to be a giant ass, which is pretty much reflected in the way Death Note ends.
what about magneto then ?
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