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Old 2009-08-21, 10:10   Link #5021
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post

You can't take everything Lelouch says at face value if you want to understand him. How often has he saved people and then pretended it was less than nothing? Kallen slapped him for that once.
To Lelouch, helping someone is completely natural. See the car accident in season one, or the car accident after which Shirley fell in love with him.
Those incidents show that he does have a sense of justice, and a very strong one at that. It's just that he sets impossible standarts on himself, believing he has to change the world but really shouldn't at the same time. In his own eyes, he can't be moral, because he contradicts himself in his own beliefs.
the problems with the standards he sets for himself is that once he gets his geass and sets his plan in motion, he ends not caring all that much about people he get trampled underfoot

if you want a good example i'll give you griffith from berserk (hope you've seen it, if you havent, see it)
he has a place he wants to get to
but the problem is that to get to the castle he needs to pave the road
and the only thing he can pave the road with is dead bodies

its like the eunichs asked him
"do you watch out so that you dont step on ants while you walk"
"dont you throw away the paper you wipe your ass with"
he ends up with a similer mentality at times

Quote:
And here we have the conflict between justice and loayalty again. I could quote myself again, but let's just say that I don't believe one is more "moral" than the other.
But yes, I agree that Lelouch needed to find a balance between the two.
in season 1 he lacked this balance
he would burn the world to ash for nunnaly's sake
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Old 2009-08-21, 10:20   Link #5022
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the problems with the standards he sets for himself is that once he gets his geass and sets his plan in motion, he ends not caring all that much about people he get trampled underfoot

if you want a good example i'll give you griffith from berserk (hope you've seen it, if you havent, see it)
he has a place he wants to get to
but the problem is that to get to the castle he needs to pave the road
and the only thing he can pave the road with is dead bodies

its like the eunichs asked him
"do you watch out so that you dont step on ants while you walk"
"dont you throw away the paper you wipe your ass with"
he ends up with a similer mentality at times
Well, if you have to trample some ants to save the anthill...
Lelouch's problem is that he can't decide what is more important: the individual or the overall happiness. He's stuck somewhere between S1!Suzaku and Schneizel, being mostly ruthless, but still not using every weapon at his disposal and believing he is "sinning".
He contradicts himself.
But he does care about the "ants" he is trampling. Sentences like "a game of chess with lives at stake" or "no one has to die if I mess up here" show that very clearly.
It's not like sits back and watches other people die for him. He risks his own life, too, and he beliefs in what he is doing.

Quote:
in season 1 he lacked this balance
he would burn the world to ash for nunnaly's sake
Yep.
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Old 2009-08-21, 10:25   Link #5023
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Well, if you have to trample some ants to save the anthill...
Lelouch's problem is that he can't decide what is more important: the individual or the overall happiness. He's stuck somewhere between S1!Suzaku and Schneizel, being mostly ruthless, but still not using every weapon at his disposal and believing he is "sinning".
He contradicts himself.
But he does care about the "ants" he is trampling. Sentences like "a game of chess with lives at stake" or "no one has to die if I mess up here" show that very clearly.
It's not like sits back and watches other people die for him. He risks his own life, too, and he beliefs in what he is doing.
trampling over a few ants to save the anthill is one thing
trampling over some ants because he wants to make the anthill a different shape... not so much
and that is the crux of Z-R
its not simply about saving the ant hill
its about CHANGING it to better suit the wishes of ONE SINGLE ANT (while killing who knows how many others)
lelouch isnt the human who steps on ants
he's one of the ants himself
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Old 2009-08-21, 10:38   Link #5024
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
trampling over a few ants to save the anthill is one thing
trampling over some ants because he wants to make the anthill a different shape... not so much
and that is the crux of Z-R
its not simply about saving the ant hill
its about CHANGING it to better suit the wishes of ONE SINGLE ANT (while killing who knows how many others)
But there are more people like that single ant. Nunally may have shaped Lelouch's moral principles (and have his loyalty above anyone else), but they are still moral principles.
Not to mention that if Nunally was merely an excuse, as you seem to believe, it was his own wish to change the anthill so that more ants can be happy from the very beginning.
...Damn, ants are beginning to scare me. xD

Quote:
lelouch isnt the human who steps on ants
he's one of the ants himself
A very large ant that can easily kill or save others.
Does it make a difference?
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Old 2009-08-21, 10:43   Link #5025
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
But there are more people like that single ant. Nunally may have shaped Lelouch's moral principles, but they are still moral principles.
Not to mention that if Nunally was merely an excuse, as you seem to believe, it was his own wish to change the anthill so that more ants can be happy from the very beginning.
...Damn, ants are beginning to scare me. xD
*using his best lelouch voice* "no... you are mistaken nogi"
the ant of which i speak is not nunnaly
the single ant of which i speak is lelouch himself
the entire anthill must be reshaped (destroyed and recreated) , and countless ants trampled
so that it would better meet the demands of a single ant called lelouch

Quote:
A very large ant that can easily kill or save others.
Does it make a difference?
is the life and will of a single worker ant (for there are NO "queens" in the human world) enough to justify trampeling over countless others ?
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Old 2009-08-21, 10:49   Link #5026
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
*using his best lelouch voice* "no... you are mistaken nogi"
the ant of which i speak is not nunnaly
the single ant of which i speak is lelouch himself
the entire anthill must be reshaped (destroyed and recreated) , and countless ants trampled
so that it would better meet the demands of a single ant called lelouch
And Lelouch wants a gentle world just for the heck of it?
It's his sense of justice as well as his love for Nunally that drive him.

Quote:
is the life and will of a single worker ant (for there are NO "queens" in the human world) enough to justify trampeling over countless others ?
Either Nunally was an excuse or she wasn't, but Lelouch helps "weak" people in general if he can, not just Nunally (*points towards the car accidents*).
A world with a place for the weak in it wouldn't only have been a world for Nunally.
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Old 2009-08-21, 10:58   Link #5027
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
And Lelouch wants a gentle world just for the heck of it?
It's his sense of justice as well as his love for Nunally that drive him.
he doesnt want to IMPROVE the world
he wants to re-create it
which is alot more destructive

Quote:
Either Nunally was an excuse or she wasn't, but Lelouch helps "weak" people in general if he can, not just Nunally (*points towards the car accidents*).
A world with a place for the weak in it wouldn't only have been a world for Nunally.
again
not talking about nunnaly as the ant
lelouch is
he wanted to change the world to better meet HIS demands
would it benefit people, sure
if you are willing to exclude all those who he would personally have hurt or killed
and all those people who cared about them who had their lives ruined by their loss
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Old 2009-08-21, 11:06   Link #5028
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he doesnt want to IMPROVE the world
he wants to re-create it
which is alot more destructive
He wants to re-create the world and turn it into a better one, thus improving it. It's not like he literally blows the whole planet up and replaces it with Jupiter.

Quote:
again
not talking about nunnaly as the ant
lelouch is
he wanted to change the world to better meet HIS demands
would it benefit people, sure
Everyone does that, just not to this extend.
And everyone can only do what they think is right. Let Britannia stay in power, destroy your life, your sisters life, million lives all over the world, or be ready to make sacrifices, in the form of your own life as well as in the form of other lives.

Quote:
if you are willing to exclude all those who he would personally have hurt or killed
and all those people who cared about them who had their lives ruined by their loss
Again, it's purely a question of moral principles. Personally, I'm a lot of Lelouch in this respect - I can't decide.
I think it would have been horrible to let Britannia stay in power, but at the same time, I believe individuals are still incredibly important. So I think Lelouch did something horribly wrong, but would also have done something horribly wrong if he hadn't, and I can't judge him - not even on a purely moral level -, because like he himself, I'd set impossible standards for him.

Edit:
Bad spelling mistake... bad!
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2009-08-21 at 11:17.
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Old 2009-08-21, 11:34   Link #5029
Neku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness
not misleading at all
a REAL hero doesnt need a villain to be a hero
LELOUCH needs a VERY evil villain to be a hero
because lelouch is NOT a real "hero"
lelouch is a lesser evil who is made to SEEM like a hero when compared to greater evil
compare lelouch to say... rivals, and you have a monster.
..which is exactly why I'm saying your definition of hero is very black and white.
I would call a person who has sacrificed himself so that people could have better lives in the future a hero. If Lelouch was truly a villain, he wouldn't at all performed a self-sacrifice.

Also, it is misleading because I find your words very contradictory. But nevermind.

Quote:
childish much ?
"because i say so" is hardly a logical argument
Argument? I wasn't even arguing.

First, you said I can't treat him as a hero. But I can.
Next, you asked who gave him the right to decide. Yet the point was he did decide that he turned into a villain, and Suzaku a hero. Therefore I don't know. Himself, I guess? Or the scriptwriters?
Finally, you stated that you couldn't grasp my concept. Therefore I said that you don't have to.

Which part of all of my replies constitutes of "because I say so"?

Quote:
none of the 3 are heroes
zero is just a mask that allows the one wearing it to PRETEND to be a hero
If you can use a mask and become a hero, then Zero is a hero.

Quote:
case in point, if you remove suzaku's mask and reveal who he really is, he'll be hanged for crimes against humanity within 24 hours
Exactly.
..which is why I said Lelouch was able to decide who is the hero and who is the villain.

Through Zero, he made himself an unknown hero.
Through Zero Requiem, he made himself a villain, and turned Suzaku into a hero by making him wear the mask of Zero.

Quote:
then how do you claim he has the ability/right to make a decesion about who is a hero and who is a villain (and i'm not a believer anyway)
I claimed he is a godlike character because he has the ability to decide who's the hero and who's the villain, and in the ending of Code Geass, he did did that.
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Old 2009-08-21, 13:21   Link #5030
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Well I wouldn't call Lelouch a hero, per se, but more as a tragic hero. But then again, Code Geass feels like a blur to me after it ended.
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:04   Link #5031
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I prefer to look at Lelouch from a very different point of view. Lets say for arguement's sake that eventually the real truth of Lelouch's actions was common knowledge. How would the general population of the world view him? I think that depends A LOT on how long ago ZR was.

The people who's lives he ruined will probably never forgive him for the most part. Wait 300 years and I bet the average person wouldn't care. They wouldn't think about it. Lelouch was some name from history class. But in those history books i'm pretty sure they would call Lelouch a hero, seeing as how he did save the world and the people of that day wouldn't be alive without him. In the end he killed the hopes and dreams of many, but because of him the human race can live on and the next generation can have their own hopes and dreams, and maybe, just maybe, the world will be a better place for that next generation.
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Old 2009-08-21, 14:06   Link #5032
bladeofdarkness
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no one knows about shniezl's plan
there wouldnt be anything that lelouch saved the world FROM in the history books
none of the logic you apply to it would ever happen because no one knows WHY lelouch did what he did
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Old 2009-08-21, 23:00   Link #5033
Laurcus
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That was exactly my point. I was talking from the point of view of the real truth somehow getting out. Maybe Suzaku spills his guts on his death bed or something. It doesn't really matter how it happens my point remains the same. I believe I said what I was talking about at the start of my post.
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Old 2009-08-21, 23:10   Link #5034
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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
..which is exactly why I'm saying your definition of hero is very black and white.
I would call a person who has sacrificed himself so that people could have better lives in the future a hero. If Lelouch was truly a villain, he wouldn't at all performed a self-sacrifice.

Also, it is misleading because I find your words very contradictory. But nevermind.
If Lelouch sacrificed only himself? Yes, his a hero

But he sacrificed untold amounts of people going from at least 10,000 to more likely in the millions. Also the reason he sacrificed himself was less because it had to be done (most if not all the deaths from Zero Requiem could have been averted through diplomacy), but to soothe his own guilty consience. He didn't sacrifice himself he commited the world's largest murder suicide.
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Old 2009-08-21, 23:37   Link #5035
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There's no way its in the millions. Thousands, sure, but not millions. It's not like he went on a killing spree after winning, which would be necessary to reach those kinds of death tolls.

The only person with kills into the millions is Suzaku, and he didn't even want to do it.
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Old 2009-08-22, 00:06   Link #5036
Laurcus
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I can't really blame Suzaku or Lelouch for Suzaku firing the nuke, that was just .......really really bad luck. How could either of them have known that was gonna happen lol.
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Old 2009-08-22, 00:14   Link #5037
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
There's no way its in the millions. Thousands, sure, but not millions. It's not like he went on a killing spree after winning, which would be necessary to reach those kinds of death tolls.

The only person with kills into the millions is Suzaku, and he didn't even want to do it.
Considering how hated he is, I would assume he would go on a killing spree.

How else do you think he became so hated? Cancel Casual Fridays?
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Old 2009-08-22, 00:35   Link #5038
morbosfist
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Propaganda does wonders, and he probably kidnapped and imprisoned a few dissidents and their families to reinforce the point. He wouldn't kill needlessly.
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Old 2009-08-22, 02:26   Link #5039
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Propaganda does wonders, and he probably kidnapped and imprisoned a few dissidents and their families to reinforce the point. He wouldn't kill needlessly.
No Propaganda is not going to make you the most hated man in the world, and kidnapping a few nobles is not going to piss off the commoners.

Make them worship Lelouch as their savior? Yes

Do you honestly believe the average commonor likes the nobles? I mean as horrible as the nobles are to Japan do you honestly think that their actions are any better to the commoners of Britannia. In fact when Lelouch weakens the power of the noblity his hailed as a hero by the Britannians.

Keep in mind that given the power of the nobility in this series the average Britannian has probably little rights. Given Lelouch and Charles actions the Magna Carta probably doesn't even exist and neither does Parliament. There doesn't seem to be a limit to Charles or Lelouche's power.

In other words Lelouch must have done something horrible to the Britannia commoners. Propaganda can only take you so far.
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Old 2009-08-22, 02:58   Link #5040
morbosfist
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I did not say nobles, I said dissidents. There's a difference. Maybe not when he first becomes Emperor, but when he rules the world there certainly is. Dissidents in the second instance would be damn near everybody, and enough kidnapping/secret jailings would discourage people from complaining while putting over the illusion that he was killing them. Even when later released, people would only twist the news negatively.
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