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Old 2009-09-08, 08:36   Link #5401
bladeofdarkness
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even if you extend the pool to all britannians
the concept of "no numbers" still significantly reduces their selection pool
the two best pilots in the show are both "elevens"
as are several others who can match their best of the best (KoR)

and its not just about race, its about "traditions vs innovations"
and its indicated in the way that they think about combat operations
britannia has the lancelot, but they never bother to find it a pilot, and once a pilot does turn up, they shelf it from much of their operations and treat it like an over expensive toy

by contrast
when lelouch gets the guren, he immediately give it to his best pilot and makes her the crux of his first plan (the landslide couldnt be done without it) and as his bodyguard in all other operations

its a difference in frame of mind
britannia isnt big on inovations and prefers to stick to traditions
lelouch goes for what works first and foremost
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Old 2009-09-08, 09:45   Link #5402
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
Where exactly is it stated that only nobles could be KMF pilots? The only parts I recall making any mention of the requirements were when Suzaku said that Elevens weren't allowed and that you needed "A court rank of at least Knight to be a pilot."

I'm not sure how the court rank and military ranks are different (if they aren't just different words for each other, or sub categories), but a Knight is never indicated to be a rank of nobility. Viletta doesn't receive her title as a Baroness until after the first season and she is clearly shown to be a KMF pilot in the first season. There is no indication that she was demoted along with Jeremiah, and even if she was, she and the other Purists are still in their Sutherlands in Saitama and Narita. If they had noble titles to revoke, then they wouldn't even be there on the sidelines.
That's right, you need to be at least a Knight to pilot a Knightmare. Knight also happens to be the lowest rank of nobility, and anybody can be a knight because it is appointed and you don't have to be born into it, i.e Marianne, Suzaku.

Here's more info on noble ranks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_and_noble_ranks
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Old 2009-09-08, 09:47   Link #5403
Betteroffer
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
even if you extend the pool to all britannians
the concept of "no numbers" still significantly reduces their selection pool
the two best pilots in the show are both "elevens"
as are several others who can match their best of the best (KoR)
The mainland was two continents. While the no numbers policy would exclude a lot of candidates, it would not exactly put Britannia in a tight spot for talent.

And while non Britannians do make up a good portion of the super-talent they don't exactly have a monopoly either. Jeremiah, Guilford, Cornelia, Darlton, and the 5 Glaston Knights are all quite talented, and as for the best pilots being non Britannian, I would still wager that Bismarck and Marianne could match Suzaku and Kallen if not beat them into the ground, and Kallen was still half Britannian, and the better of the two between herself and Suzaku.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and its not just about race, its about "traditions vs innovations"
and its indicated in the way that they think about combat operations
britannia has the lancelot, but they never bother to find it a pilot, and once a pilot does turn up, they shelf it from much of their operations and treat it like an over expensive toy
We don't know why Lloyd hadn't tried to get Jeremiah to at least test the Lancelot before Shinjuku. Once Suzaku is made the pilot, no one in the G-1 base knows he is a number, but they still don't want to bring it out. As Clovis says, using it implies a debt to Schneizel which Clovis doesn't want (for personal and practical reasons).

The reason Cornelia didn't strongarm someone else into the Lancelot was because she didn't have the authority to control the Special Core's internal workings, just when they could step into her jurisdiction. As long as Lloyd held onto Suzaku, Lancelot wasn't going to see much action. It was a matter of egos.

In any case, in Kawaguchi Cornelia seems fine with making Suzaku a decoy for the Raikou, as does Schneizel on Shikine island.

While they do briefly mention that Suzaku is a number, Cornelia's advisors make the point that they simply don't believe that the Lancelot is as good as Lloyd seems to think it is, which is Lloyd's own fault for apparently not sending the combat performance data to anyone beyond Schneizel, though he might be under orders not to.

It's also about competing branches of a single organization not wanting to cooperate even when it is blatantly in their best immediate interest to do so. This is something that real world organizations are all too guilty of. Britannia at least has the excuse of being a culture built much more heavily on competition.

In any case, after Narita Cornelia does start allowing Suzaku to participate in operations, she just made it a point of testing that he is loyal. There are are only even two battles that we see occur between Narita and when Euphemia knights Suzaku, both of which have him present from the start.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
by contrast
when lelouch gets the guren, he immediately give it to his best pilot and makes her the crux of his first plan (the landslide couldnt be done without it) and as his bodyguard in all other operations

its a difference in frame of mind
britannia isnt big on inovations and prefers to stick to traditions
lelouch goes for what works first and foremost
The landslide itself could have been started by anyone in the Guren. The match against Lancelot would have been one-sided yes, but Lelouch wasn't expecting it to even show up, and he didn't even use Kallen when he had the 4 Holy Swords try to ambush Suzaku. Talent and equipment can still be beaten by simple strength of numbers and teamwork.

EDIT: Ahh, so Knight is a rank of nobility. Still, I don't suppose it would grant any privaleges of peerage since Viletta was still trying to rise higher.

It would be useful to see what the actual number on Britannian Knights actually is, and how they were appointed. I'd suppose while many might achieve the rank and then become a pilot because they could, there would be many who were very good in tests and were then given the title to let them be pilots. I doubt every single person who got the title would become a KMF pilot. Many might opt for a different area of service.

Last edited by Betteroffer; 2009-09-08 at 10:09.
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Old 2009-09-08, 14:49   Link #5404
bladeofdarkness
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my point was that britannia doesnt deal well with innovation in thinking and tactics

they have the lancelot, and they dont even bother to assign it a pilot even after it was shown to be amazingly effective

lelouch gets the guren, and the first thing he does is give it to his best pilot

its a difference in thinking
and its also reflected in their choice of knights being only britannians
because, as cornellia puts it, they "always made a point to distinguish themselves from the numbers"
tradition takes precedence over effectiveness
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Old 2009-09-08, 15:21   Link #5405
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Just to point out something that seems to have been misconstrued. In Britannia, you do not have to be a Knight to be a Knightmare pilot. Being a Knightmare pilot makes you a Knight. Knightmare pilots, by virtue of their position, are granted the lowest form of nobility. This was Villetta's whole angle in the first season. She got nobility by being a pilot, but as the lowest form of nobility it wasn't considered "hereditary" (it doesn't pass on to descendants or any immediate family). Ranks above Knight are permanent.

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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
The landslide itself could have been started by anyone in the Guren. The match against Lancelot would have been one-sided yes, but Lelouch wasn't expecting it to even show up, and he didn't even use Kallen when he had the 4 Holy Swords try to ambush Suzaku. Talent and equipment can still be beaten by simple strength of numbers and teamwork.
Kallen helped, you just don't see much of it.
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Old 2009-09-08, 22:04   Link #5406
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
my point was that britannia doesnt deal well with innovation in thinking and tactics

they have the lancelot, and they dont even bother to assign it a pilot even after it was shown to be amazingly effective

lelouch gets the guren, and the first thing he does is give it to his best pilot

its a difference in thinking
and its also reflected in their choice of knights being only britannians
because, as cornellia puts it, they "always made a point to distinguish themselves from the numbers"
tradition takes precedence over effectiveness
The thing is the Lancelot was an experimental unit, and armies don't usually send experimental units into the battlefield. It's just not practical; now in the anime it is because it is a 1 man army but that's beside the point.

Up until the moment Lelouch starts to play tactician Britannia was mopping the floor with the resistance/terrorist cells. Clovis was an idiot but his generals were competent enough to deal with terrorist leaders like Ougi lol. I'm pretty sure you give me the technological advatange Clovis had and I could destroy the Shinjiku cells too, and I'm simply a student. No pun intended.

I don't get what you're trying to say about innovation and tactics. Britannia was a country that subjugated over 1/3 of the world, clearly they were doing something right when it came to tactics and strategy...
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Old 2009-09-09, 02:34   Link #5407
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Up until the moment Lelouch starts to play tactician Britannia was mopping the floor with the resistance/terrorist cells. Clovis was an idiot but his generals were competent enough to deal with terrorist leaders like Ougi lol.
He was mentioned! *appears in a glistening pinkish light*
Clovis! *-*
However, I have to contradict the statement of him being an idiot. That implies a lack of intellectual capacity rather than a lack of interest in this kind of stuff and almost everything else, and the Sound Drama suggests he was indeed very intelligent.
...And no, I'm not just saying this because I have been neglecting my fangirl dutys in this forum and need to make up for it. xD

Hm. I agree that there's a clear difference in thinking when it comes to Lelouch and Cornelia concerning this Lancelot and Guren thing. However, I'm not sure it's enough to turn it into a much more general statement about Britannia and innovations. It's just her usual "one has to clearly distinguish between rulers and subjects" thing that is admittedly popular, but doesn't affect a lot of other innovations too much.
But I guess it's at least noteworthy.
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Old 2009-09-09, 02:51   Link #5408
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
I don't get what you're trying to say about innovation and tactics. Britannia was a country that subjugated over 1/3 of the world, clearly they were doing something right when it came to tactics and strategy...
because they had far better weapons then the rest of the world (none of the other nations had anything that can match a satherland)
you see the type of stuff the rest of the world has (gun-ru, panzer hammel)
and when compared to a golchester/satherland/glasgow, it doesnt match up
oddly, the only groups using glasgow derivitives, are the japanese resistance groups
why arent the other nations using it when its much more effective

and the lancelot had already proven itself in shinjiku
but was nevertheless shelved most of the time
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Old 2009-09-09, 12:25   Link #5409
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
because they had far better weapons then the rest of the world (none of the other nations had anything that can match a satherland)
you see the type of stuff the rest of the world has (gun-ru, panzer hammel)
and when compared to a golchester/satherland/glasgow, it doesnt match up
oddly, the only groups using glasgow derivitives, are the japanese resistance groups
why arent the other nations using it when its much more effective

and the lancelot had already proven itself in shinjiku
but was nevertheless shelved most of the time
Isn't the fact that Britania produced and used superior weapons like knightmares, and continued to be on the cutting edge of these technologies, while other nations focused on making less effective knockoffs contradictory to your point? I would think this means that it is the OTHER nations that need to focus on innovations.

As Revolusionist said, they were doing something very right up until then, especially with how they conquered Japan (deploying all of the KoR to Africa as decoy tactic)

There's the issue of how well the Lancelot proved itself being known to anyone besides Lloyd and Lelouch. Suzaku was rather quickly hauled off and charged with regicide. Zero's appearance may have stirred things up, but it was stated that Ephemia had a hand in making sure Suzaku was still aquitted, and if te Ashford students are any indication, thnmost Britannians STILL suspected him of regicide. Most intelligent people don't send a guy who may have shot the president out to save the next president.

I will agree that while Clovis is no Lelouch, losing to Lelouch only means that your IQ is at or below 200. Clovis was still able to effectively run an entire country at 23, help or not, and when he first sees Kallen as a decoy in Shinjuku he says "A feint? How pedestrian." He was able to distinguish between a clumsy move and a coordinated one, and respond reasonably. The problem was that his opponent was the sort of guy to put feints within feints.
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Old 2009-09-09, 12:31   Link #5410
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Isn't the fact that Britania produced and used superior weapons like knightmares, and continued to be on the cutting edge of these technologies, while other nations focused on making less effective knockoffs contradictory to your point? I would think this means that it is the OTHER nations that need to focus on innovations.
thats actaully part of my quesitoning
how could a nation who conquered a third of the world using the cutting edge of technology
be so unwilling to stray from traditions
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Old 2009-09-09, 12:35   Link #5411
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I was a little too hard on Clovis, just because he was defeated by Lelouch doesn't make him stupid hehe. I wasn't thinking lol.
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Old 2009-09-09, 12:54   Link #5412
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
I will agree that while Clovis is no Lelouch, losing to Lelouch only means that your IQ is at or below 200. Clovis was still able to effectively run an entire country at 23, help or not, and when he first sees Kallen as a decoy in Shinjuku he says "A feint? How pedestrian." He was able to distinguish between a clumsy move and a coordinated one, and respond reasonably. The problem was that his opponent was the sort of guy to put feints within feints.
*nods her head*
Not to mention that the last match Clovis played against Lelouch seemed to have been going in his favour. Or at least, Clovis was good enough that for the first time, he felt like he was going to win.
Oh, and unlike Cornelia, he knew very well that Lelouch "would never go easy on him".
Yep, intelligent and perceptive.
...And Im a hopeless fangirl, but that's fine. xD
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Old 2009-09-09, 15:49   Link #5413
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Now that I think about it Lelouch had a huge advantage over Clovis in Shinjuku. First he had geass which let him procure weapons for the terrorists from Clovis' own forces, and he could use the IFF to easily see the moves Clovis was making. In retrospect, if this had been a fair battle Clovis should've won.
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Old 2009-09-09, 16:07   Link #5414
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Now that I think about it Lelouch had a huge advantage over Clovis in Shinjuku. First he had geass which let him procure weapons for the terrorists from Clovis' own forces, and he could use the IFF to easily see the moves Clovis was making. In retrospect, if this had been a fair battle Clovis should've won.
War is hardly about fair play, though. Cornelia might have won at Narita if Lelouch hadn't used a landslide to knock out half her forces. Even if Lelouch didn't have the IFF, though, he'd probably be able to bait Clovis just as easily.
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Old 2009-09-09, 16:08   Link #5415
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Now that I think about it Lelouch had a huge advantage over Clovis in Shinjuku. First he had geass which let him procure weapons for the terrorists from Clovis' own forces, and he could use the IFF to easily see the moves Clovis was making. In retrospect, if this had been a fair battle Clovis should've won.
by fair battle, you mean equal size of forces as well ?
clovis had an army there
lelouch had about half a dozen satherlands and a one armed galsgow
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Old 2009-09-09, 16:26   Link #5416
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
by fair battle, you mean equal size of forces as well ?
clovis had an army there
lelouch had about half a dozen satherlands and a one armed galsgow
He had more than six Sutherlands. >.> More than a dozen, at least.
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Old 2009-09-09, 16:28   Link #5417
bladeofdarkness
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He had more than six Sutherlands. >.> More than a dozen, at least.
how many pilots did he have ?
ougi, sugiyama, minami, inoue,tamaki, and youshinda are the only ones we know of (+kallen in a glasgow)
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Old 2009-09-09, 16:40   Link #5418
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
how many pilots did he have ?
ougi, sugiyama, minami, inoue,tamaki, and youshinda are the only ones we know of (+kallen in a glasgow)
So we're gonna disregard all the terrorists that weren't named? If it was just those seven pilots, Lelouch wouldn't have been able to designate them into different groups. We heard of P-Group and N-Group, and as it is, Tamaki was P-5.
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Old 2009-09-09, 16:47   Link #5419
bladeofdarkness
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So we're gonna disregard all the terrorists that weren't named? If it was just those seven pilots, Lelouch wouldn't have been able to designate them into different groups. We heard of P-Group and N-Group, and as it is, Tamaki was P-5.
all i know is that when lelouch formed the black knights
it was only those seven at first
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Old 2009-09-09, 17:08   Link #5420
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
all i know is that when lelouch formed the black knights
it was only those seven at first
I just watched the dubbed episode 2 yesterday, which is what I've been talking about. Tamaki was in P-Group, which consisted of at least five members, including Ohgi and Tamaki. N-Group, meanwhile, had at least five or so members attacking the Britannian KMF pilots when another half-dozen of Lelouch's pilots came up behind the pinned-down Britannians and subdue them.
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