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Old 2009-10-06, 01:26   Link #5721
Sol Falling
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I wasn't talking about whether or not Lelouch 'should' feel guilty at all. Here's a question: how the hell can Lelouch feel guilty about Shirley if he sees that she is living a genuinely happy and hopeful life? And Lelouch knows he played a part in giving her that life? There's no sense in it. He can only feel that he's done what's best for her.

Nobody ever absolved Lelouch of anything. Your analogy doesn't work, because Shirley was never tired of her father (i.e. the dog), she simply decided after the fact that she would put all the sad feelings behind her and live on, treasuring tomorrow. If she could truly do that, and live in genuine happiness, then Lelouch feeling guilty would only be selfishness on his part, dragging up and forcing negative emotions upon her simply to satisfy a personal desire for punishment.

The sheer concept of Lelouch interacting with Shirley out of guilt just doesn't make sense. Lelouch knows he is a person that brings harm to others. His guilt always makes him push others away. Wiping Shirley's memories was an act of guilt; kissing her back was not. Trying to say any of Lelouch's close or meaningful moments with Shirley were motivated by guilt is just complete bullshit.
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Old 2009-10-06, 02:48   Link #5722
Knightrunner
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Trying to say any of Lelouch's close or meaningful moments with Shirley were motivated by guilt is just complete bullshit.
Plus, he seems to ask about love advice from Shirley.
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Old 2009-10-06, 02:53   Link #5723
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Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
Plus, he seems to ask about love advice from Shirley.
It was more of a spur of the moment kinda thing instead of an actual desire to ask.
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Old 2009-10-06, 04:34   Link #5724
bladeofdarkness
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true
he didnt ask for "love advice"
he asked for a good way to get a couple to break up
kinda like a "anti-love" advice
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Old 2009-10-06, 08:33   Link #5725
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It is true that Lelouch did deceive people that were close to him, but it was only because of the greater goals. Let's face it, in order to move ahead, he had to go through certain things. He cannot tell everybody the truth, now can he? After all, he did say something like, if evil must be used to destroy the greater evil, then be so. That makes sense, because in the end, he did succeed in destroying evil, including himself.

Ryuk from Death Note told Light that, if he were to kill of all criminals in the world, the only criminal left would be Light himself. Lelouch himself said to C.C. that if she were a witch, then he was a demon. He knew the risk he was taking, and even an intelligent person like him could have easily died or lost anywhere in the anime. He did survive all those risks, because he had his friends help him. He may have deceived many, but both Rolo and Shirley stayed loyal to him even though they found out the truth. If Lelouch succeeded in that much, than in my book, he is more than an average hero. He even led Suzaku to join his cause towards the end, just by his actions. He did fail to be a perfect hero, but then what is a perfect hero? A soldier that died in a war without much of a cause because he was given orders to fight, with some phony reason? A celebrity that donated money to some charity? A person that could have killed someone like Hitler or Bin Laden?
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Old 2009-10-06, 08:47   Link #5726
bladeofdarkness
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he didnt fail to become a "perfect hero"
he intentionally chose to become a villain
thats quite a difference
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Old 2009-10-06, 09:48   Link #5727
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The thing is Lelouch never chose to be a hero or a villain until the very end with Zero Requim. Before that his cause was just a cause. Yes, he did become a villain, but viewers like us who know the truth know, that in the end he contributed heavily to make the earth a better place, even if that meant death to certain casualties and civillians.
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Old 2009-10-06, 09:54   Link #5728
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Always thought that Zero Requiem was damn selfish of Lelouch. It was a brilliant plan, sure, but I saw it more of a "God, I am tired with this world, kkgtgtqbai" from Lelouch.
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Old 2009-10-06, 10:01   Link #5729
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by HollowScar View Post
The thing is Lelouch never chose to be a hero or a villain until the very end with Zero Requim. Before that his cause was just a cause. Yes, he did become a villain, but viewers like us who know the truth know, that in the end he contributed heavily to make the earth a better place, even if that meant death to certain casualties and civillians.
i'm talking specificlly about the last arc
at which point he WAS a villain, even if a well intentioned extremist one
charles, marianne, and shnizel would ALSO have made the world a better place, or at least a more peaceful one
and they too, would have required casualties and sacrifices
the moment you say "lelouch is a hero because he contributed heavily to make the earth a better place" then you have to also afford them the same treatment
lelouch's plan is not inherently better then theirs simply because lelouch was the one doing ti
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Old 2009-10-06, 10:13   Link #5730
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i'm talking specificlly about the last arc
at which point he WAS a villain, even if a well intentioned extremist one
charles, marianne, and shnizel would ALSO have made the world a better place, or at least a more peaceful one
and they too, would have required casualties and sacrifices
the moment you say "lelouch is a hero because he contributed heavily to make the earth a better place" then you have to also afford them the same treatment
lelouch's plan is not inherently better then theirs simply because lelouch was the one doing ti
That's a false conclusion.
What you say would only be true if they all had had exactlyt the same plan as Lelouch. But Charles and Marianne were about to throw people's individuality out of the window, and Schneizel would not only have killed at least as many people as Lelouch, but also subdued them through fear.
If I had to pick either of those worlds to live in - Lelouch's, Schneizel's or Charles' - it would alway be precisely in this order. Thus, Lelouch is more moral - and more of a hero - to me than Schneizel, and Schneizel is more moral than Charles.
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Old 2009-10-06, 10:30   Link #5731
bladeofdarkness
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so we are now haggling over the price then ?
how many dead bodies exactly stands between hero and villain ?
how long an oppression ?
how do you determine what a better world would be ?

because if lelouch is simply more to the left of the scale then Schneizel and Charles
then that doesnt make him a hero does it
it makes him a "lesser evil"
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Old 2009-10-06, 10:56   Link #5732
Neku
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness
how many dead bodies exactly stands between hero and villain ?
So... what?
Are you saying that heroes don't kill? How someone is a hero just depends on perception. Let's just say 1 from country A won the war against country Z. In country A's vision, 1 is a hero. But in country Z's eyes, 1 is just a bloody murderer who slaughtered their army.

Similar to say, Cornelia. In Britannia, she can be regarded as a heroine. But in the eyes of the Japanese, she's what? She'd probably be perceived as one of the villains who conquered their land and renamed them Elevens.

Quote:
because if lelouch is simply more to the left of the scale then Schneizel and Charles
then that doesnt make him a hero does it
it makes him a "lesser evil"
It amazes me how touchy you can get when anyone just tries to relate Lelouch and the term hero in a positive manner, or rather, how Lelouch can be seen in the positive light.

..which reminds me why I proclaimed Lelouch God when I first stated it. But let's not venture into that maze again.

Basically, whether or not Lelouch is a hero, or whether he has even done anything heroic, it's up to you. I'd daresay I find him a hero at the last episode, where he ordered Suzaku to valiantly kill him as Zero, and that I find him a little villainous too when he stripped Suzaku of his real identity forever.

What gives? Lelouch is Lelouch.
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Old 2009-10-06, 11:05   Link #5733
bladeofdarkness
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So... what?
Are you saying that heroes don't kill? How someone is a hero just depends on perception. Let's just say 1 from country A won the war against country Z. In country A's vision, 1 is a hero. But in country Z's eyes, 1 is just a bloody murderer who slaughtered their army.

Similar to say, Cornelia. In Britannia, she can be regarded as a heroine. But in the eyes of the Japanese, she's what? She'd probably be perceived as one of the villains who conquered their land and renamed them Elevens.
so if lelouch is considered an absolute bastard in the eyes of 99.999999% of the human race that makes him a villain then ?
by your logic

a hero can kill and still be a hero
but a hero cant start killing people on mass FOR NO NECESSARY REASON and still be heroic for it
and thats the key word here
necessary


Quote:
It amazes me how touchy you can get when anyone just tries to relate Lelouch and the term hero in a positive manner, or rather, how Lelouch can be seen in the positive light.

..which reminds me why I proclaimed Lelouch God when I first stated it. But let's not venture into that maze again.

Basically, whether or not Lelouch is a hero, or whether he has even done anything heroic, it's up to you. I'd daresay I find him a hero at the last episode, where he ordered Suzaku to valiantly kill him as Zero, and that I find him a little villainous too when he stripped Suzaku of his real identity forever.

What gives? Lelouch is Lelouch.
lelouch WAS a hero for the first 46 eps of the show
when he was actively figting against a larger, clearly evil, threat
he wasnt a pure knight in shining armor, but he was heroic, and there was plenty of excuses for his questionable actions
then the last arc rolls around
at which point, when possesing the power to change the world peacefully, he instead goes on a mass murdering spree to sate his own ego and desire for atonement
there are no excuses for it then
stopping snhizel does not require him massacring countless other, completely un-involved people, just to make himself hated
and once he has nothing to excuse his actions, then he bares their full weight
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Old 2009-10-06, 11:49   Link #5734
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
so we are now haggling over the price then ?
how many dead bodies exactly stands between hero and villain ?
how long an oppression ?
how do you determine what a better world would be ?

because if lelouch is simply more to the left of the scale then Schneizel and Charles
then that doesnt make him a hero does it
it makes him a "lesser evil"
I'm tired of this "Lelouch did it for the lulz" thing.
Yes, he had selfish reasons. Yes, it's not certain that there were no possibilities that would have created an even better world.
But neither is the opposite. The staff never once mentioned there would have been better ways, and neither did I get that impression while watching the anime.
What Lelouch did is morally questionable - but that's it. You can come up with thousands and thousands of scenarios of what he could have done instead, but none of them will be guaranteed to have a better outcome, and since Lelouch is good at predicting things and people, I will just assume he considered that.
Lelouch deliberately picked the option with the "worst" outcome for him. But for the world? That's something that only the staff could declare.
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Old 2009-10-06, 11:51   Link #5735
bladeofdarkness
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actually, attacking shnizel without going to war with the entire world
would, by default, produce a better solution to the damocles problem
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Old 2009-10-06, 11:53   Link #5736
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actually, attacking shnizel without going to war with the entire world
would, by default, produce a better solution to the damocles problem
But for the world?
Lelouch thought hatred would unite people. That might not work very well in real life, but the staff has said nothing to make him appear delusional.
It was a gamble, and the epilogue and Okouchi's words about a "better tomorrow" show that it worked, not that war broke out again after five years and everyone died.
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Old 2009-10-06, 12:00   Link #5737
bladeofdarkness
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lelouch doesnt need to unite people through hate
he doesnt need to make a quick temporary fix, that involves countless deaths, when a simply (albiet, less flashy) solution is present
so it would have taken longer for the hate to go away
so what

there would always BE war as long as there is free will, and lelouch did not change that
if its not a permanent solution, then there is no point in doing it at all
i dont agree with shnizel's plan, despite it being a permanent solution, because i find his method unacceptable
lelouch's methods i ALSO find unacceptable
but it enjoys the added weight of also being pointless
its not acceptable, and its not a solution to the problem
it loses out on both ends
its a temporary solution, at too high a price

edit:
and if he must focus and destroy all the hate
blame charles
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Old 2009-10-06, 12:06   Link #5738
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
lelouch doesnt need to unite people through hate
he doesnt need to make a quick temporary fix, that involves countless deaths, when a simply (albiet, less flashy) solution is present
so it would have taken longer for the hate to go away
so what

there would always BE war as long as there is free will, and lelouch did not change that
if its not a permanent solution, then there is no point in doing it at all
i dont agree with shnizel's plan, despite it being a permanent solution, because i find his method unacceptable
lelouch's methods i ALSO find unacceptable
but it enjoys the added weight of also being pointless
its not acceptable, and its not a solution to the problem
it loses out on both ends
its a temporary solution, at too high a price
Actually, I think Lelouch's plan was indeed supposed to be a long-term solution. Not as entirely as Schneizel's, and there would still be some wars here and there, but there would always be people who still remember the peace after the Demon Emperor's fall and try to keep as much of it alive as they can.
Lelouch and Suzaku broke the chain of hatred in one single go and then left people to their own devices.
You can choose to believe it's unrealistic that this will create a world that is at least as good as one in which Lelouch had stayed alive to fix things, but that's not how it was portrayed in the anime and by the staff.
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Old 2009-10-06, 12:08   Link #5739
bladeofdarkness
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blame charles

no need to go around killing people and steering up MORE hate
when you have a perfectly good scape goat all but waiting (with the added bonus of him actually being guilty)
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Old 2009-10-06, 12:12   Link #5740
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
blame charles

no need to go around killing people and steering up MORE hate
when you have a perfectly good scape goat all but waiting (with the added bonus of him actually being guilty)
Seeing how loyal Britannian people were to the crown, that might not have been a perfect solution, either. Even getting them to believe Lelouch would have been rather hard.
Also, it could have resulted in panic and disorder, or backlashed on the entire Royal Family (French Revolution style). Who knows?
It's all just speculation.
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