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Old 2009-10-06, 17:51   Link #5761
bladeofdarkness
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its not so much a sense of justice, as it is that i find it sickening to see lelouch standing in a room full of brainwashed soldiers who all yell "all hail lelouch" and give him what looks disgustingly similar to a hitler salute (i wish i was kidding)

but thats actually putting it pretty nicely
but my point about zero-requiem was basiclly this
lelouch wants 3 things
1)stop shnizel
2)make the world a better place
3)die

he COULD choose a path that gives him 1# and 2#
but he wants all three
so he comes up with zero-requiem to fill all three

the problem is that insisting on a path that includes 3# causes him to make 1# harder to pull off (by fighting shnizel, AND the rest of the world at the same time) and 2# much more violent and bloody (the blood naturally, belongs to other people)

its selfish and greedy
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:02   Link #5762
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
lol. You've got a pretty strong sense of justice, blade. I think Nogitsune, a bit, you too; if you can't accept that Lelouch's choice of Zero: Requiem really was in disregard for human lives (see later paragraph).
Fangirl that I am, when I hear "disregard for human lives", I have to think of Clovis and Shinjuku. Now that you mention it, maybe that's my problem... blade makes Lelouch's actions and reasons sound worse than those of someone like Clovis, and that's something I can't agree with even though I love both of them to bits.

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On the other hand, I'd believed Lelouch to be a self-satisfied asshole for so long that I probably enjoyed the ending much more than either of you. :P The pleasant shock that Lelouch wasn't as flawed as I thought he was, and that Lelouch could genuinely feel remorse enough to die for it, meant my surprise at the ending was truly satisfying.
Actually, I enjoyed the ending very much. However, I wasn't overly surprised by it, because I never thought Lelouch was just killing people during the last arc because he had finally snapped, or that he was incapable of genuine remorse.

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I think maybe the core point here should be that Lelouch didn't know it was necessary either. Zero: Requiem was a gamble for him, in every sense. Lelouch had no proof either that the path that would take countless lives was truly the best one; he chose it because it fit his inclinations. One could at least accuse Lelouch of amorality for the flippancy with which he decided to sacrifice other lives with his own; the fate of the world is a heavy burden--one'd do well to approach it with a little less arrogant certainty.
Agreed.
However, are we talking about amoral or immoral? Because yes, you can accuse him of the latter, but I think it's still debatable how wrong his deeds during Zero Requiem actually were, and whether all in all, he's not still one of the most moral character of the cast.

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blade, I think Lelouch was much more heroic and likeable during Zero: Requiem because it was the first time he even approached the idea of remorse and self-sacrifice; Nogitsune, I think Lelouch was still very much a dislikeable villain because he was still (previously unknowingly; now knowingly) inflicting tremendous pain through sheer lack of humility.
I disagree with the dislikeable part, but I can live with the rest.
Even though it's still questionable whether Zero Requiem might not indeed have been the best option for the largest number of people. Still, Lelouch didn't really consider other options, and that's certainly a fault.

Edit:
So Lelouch is too selfish, and Schneizel too "impartial". We could throw them into a melting pot and-... oh, wait. That was Charles' idea.
Let's try pizza instead.
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:04   Link #5763
bladeofdarkness
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what about him was likeable then ?
not memories of days gone by
what did lelouch actually do during the entire last arc, that make him likeble
because he does MUCH to make him dislikeble
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:08   Link #5764
Sol Falling
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I'd pretty much lump #1 in with #2, and point out that if Lelouch wanted to get away with all his earlier shit without #3 then that'd be even more selfish and greedy.

The point of making everybody hate him wasn't just to distract them from hating other people; Lelouch being hated was also part of his punishment in itself. The thing is, throughout most of the series, Lelouch is a pretty hateable person. He lies, manipulates, blackmails, abandons, and all that other underhanded stuff. The fact that he managed not to be hated initially is only a testament to how well he can decieve/manipulate people: Zero: Requiem also served the purpose of a sort of 'confession' of just how hateful he really is.

edit:

lol, what was more likeable about Lelouch in the last arc? Well, personally I'd say his complete openness about being a bastard, as well as his acknowledgement that he deserved to die for it, are a couple things.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2009-10-06 at 18:25. Reason: shifting edit back
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:09   Link #5765
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what about him was likeable then ?
not memories of days gone by
what did lelouch actually do during the entire last arc, that make him likeble
because he does MUCH to make him dislikeble
Let's see... thinking about the world as a whole, even though still in a rather selfish way.
Being awesome.
Realizing Nunally can stand on her own two-... errr... doesn't need other people to depend on.
Having cute talks with Suzaku.
Sacrificing himself.
Hell, I could even list "wearing his hat". This is purely subjective.

@Sol:
Hm, I don't really agree, especially when you compare him to other characters, and I think punishment is overrated and can indeed be a selfish concept, but... oh well. I should go study for my English test. xD
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:12   Link #5766
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I'd pretty much lump #1 in with #2, and point out that if Lelouch wanted to get away with all his earlier shit without #3 then that'd be even more selfish and greedy.

The point of making everybody hate him wasn't just to distract them from hating other people; Lelouch being hated was also part of his punishment in itself. The thing is, throughout most of the series, Lelouch is a pretty hateable person. He lies, manipulates, blackmails, abandons, and all that other underhanded stuff. The fact that he managed not to be hated initially is only a testament to how well he can decieve/manipulate people: Zero: Requiem also served the purpose of a sort of 'confession' of just how hateful he really is.
my problem with scenario is that he in order to atone for the things he DID while under the belief that they were right (or at least necessary)
he commits acts that are even WORSE then what he did before, while KNOWING them to be wrong and un-necessary
its like feelings bad for stealing someone's purse without their knowledge and getting away with it
so you walk up to them and hit them over the head with a baseball bat so they would hate you for it
it doesnt add up

@Sol
Quote:
lol, what was more likeable about Lelouch in the last arc? Well, personally I'd say his complete openness about being a bastard, as well as his acknowledgement that he deserved to die for it, are a couple things.
bradly was VERY open about being a bastard
never found it a likable trait

@nogi
what does he DO that makes him likable
sacrificing himself is hardly enough to balance all the other shit he does
and i personally found his "cute talk" with suzaku repulsive when they get to the "rivers of blood" part

massive brainwashing
mass murder
use of "we have reserves" tactics
use of human shields
vowing to spill rivers of blood
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:16   Link #5767
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
my problem with scenario is that he in order to atone for the things he DID while under the belief that they were right (or at least necessary)
he commits acts that are even WORSE then what he did before, while KNOWING them to be wrong and un-necessary
its like feelings bad for stealing someone's purse without their knowledge and getting away with it
so you walk up to them and hit them over the head with a baseball bat so they would hate you for it
it doesnt add up
...Okay, even though I don't agree, this comparison had me giggling.
But now I really have to go and study. xD
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:19   Link #5768
bladeofdarkness
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in the middle of the night ?
you've got more spirit then i

other then that though
you "disagree" with lelouch doing far worse things in the last arc then before ?
turning people to slaves with geass
active oppression and murder of anyone who objects to him
treating his soldiers like worker ants

he crosses quite a few lines
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:23   Link #5769
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
my problem with scenario is that he in order to atone for the things he DID while under the belief that they were right (or at least necessary)
he commits acts that are even WORSE then what he did before, while KNOWING them to be wrong and un-necessary
its like feelings bad for stealing someone's purse without their knowledge and getting away with it
so you walk up to them and hit them over the head with a baseball bat so they would hate you for it
it doesnt add up
doesn't it add up though? If you confess and return the wallet, then that person might actually forgive you. If you've done something you believe is truly unforgiveable, then you don't want their sympathy; you want their scorn.

It is basically selfishness. Lelouch's desire to be punished became just as strong as his desire for a better world. I think this is reasonable though; Lelouch had caused enough tragedies that simply believing he could continue to hope for a better world without accepting the consequences was no longer possible.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2009-10-06 at 18:25. Reason: fuck I post slow: shifting my edit back
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:26   Link #5770
bladeofdarkness
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the problem is that you make sure they hate you by HURTING THEM FARTHER
he does WORSE things "during" his atonement then the actual stuff he is atoning FOR
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:28   Link #5771
Sol Falling
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lol, yes; if that's what it takes to make them hate you, then the ends justify the means (or something ).
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:29   Link #5772
bladeofdarkness
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lol, yes; if that's what it takes to make them hate you, then the ends justify the means (or something ).
that makes no sense
you hurt someone without them knowing it was you
you feel guilty
so instead of trying to apologize (in lelouch's case, spend his life as emperor improving the world) you do something WORSE to them to make them hate you
that does not compute
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Old 2009-10-06, 18:47   Link #5773
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doesn't it add up though? If you confess and return the wallet, then that person might actually forgive you. If you've done something you believe is truly unforgiveable, then you don't want their sympathy; you want their scorn.

It is basically selfishness. Lelouch's desire to be punished became just as strong as his desire for a better world. I think this is reasonable though; Lelouch had caused enough tragedies that simply believing he could continue to hope for a better world without accepting the consequences was no longer possible.
No it doesn't add up, if you steal a person's wallet than keeping it will make them hate you. There is no need to cave their skull in with a baseball bat. When you run over a person's dog, you don't then run over that person's kid to make sure that person despises you.

It's not selfishness it's nothing more than insanity.
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Old 2009-10-06, 22:16   Link #5774
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So what's your point. That Lelouch was selfish, because he got to stage Zero Requiem, and die, while others got to hate the britannian empire? Lelouch has clearly said that, life before geass was not worth living. He was a highly intelligent young man, who chose to do something big after getting his geass. Lulu with his geass was very confident, and even though at times he was close to give up, he still came back. All that for what? Lelouch chose to make a better world for his sister, but in the end chose to make it better for everyone. So what is the difference between Lelouch, and Shnizel? Lelouch wanted to make it easier for everyone else to recognize the true hero, than people who had both sides. Because of this there was Britannians and Elevens, who were different. He chose to merge this two and liberate Japan. For that to happen, he became like Hitler in his ways, and became the thing everyone hated. Death was a necessity, and not a luxury for him. He had to die, to bring a masked Zero in who did not have an identity to bring justice. Hence, justice is blind. Zero is masked. Discrimination shall not exist.

Another way of looking into this is that everyone in the royal family had a different outlook, and many of them were murderers including Charles, Shnizel, Cornelia, and Lelouch. You can have these people in authoritarian figures, but they had their own ways, and came at a cost. Lelouch killed Charles, took over, became evil, and let that evil be destroyed by that messiah, Zero, the masked one without a face. The writers made it a good ending, and let Lelouch leave of with a good note. He may have been a villain to britannians and elevens, but he chose to do something that did bring a better future to Japanese. He was about 18 to 19 when he died. Poor guy had a really short life. What teenager does that for the sake of the world? Lelouch does.
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Old 2009-10-06, 22:52   Link #5775
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The problem with Zero Requiem is that ultimately it is based on lies and deception. Lelouch never addressed the core problems as that would've taken his entire life, working to achieve that ideal world and never see it come to fruition simply because it is impossible is just not his cup of tea. He'd rather stage a grand plot and play everybody for fools then leave it up to them. I don't know what kind of a future Ougi would forge but I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Besides, when an empire falls another shall take its place. Whether that superpower focuses on military or economic dominance is irrelevant, both go hand in hand. There will always be discrimination, famine, war and terrorism, etc.
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Old 2009-10-06, 23:06   Link #5776
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Well said, "Revolutionist". That's why we have Suzaku, the new Zero, who will live long enough to try his best in solving those problems. Shnizel will also follow him, and be the brain for Black Knights. As for Lelouch, he wanted to simplify the whole thing by painting the picture in black and white, so naive and intelligent citizen can recognize the same person to be the hero, instead of having many hero's and villain's who would confuse citizens to pick sides. Lelouch made it much more simpler, by naming himself the villain, so that a messiah like Zero can exist, and be universally recognized. A very big decision for a teenager.
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Old 2009-10-06, 23:34   Link #5777
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The problem with Zero Requiem is that ultimately it is based on lies and deception. Lelouch never addressed the core problems as that would've taken his entire life, working to achieve that ideal world and never see it come to fruition simply because it is impossible is just not his cup of tea. He'd rather stage a grand plot and play everybody for fools then leave it up to them. I don't know what kind of a future Ougi would forge but I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Besides, when an empire falls another shall take its place. Whether that superpower focuses on military or economic dominance is irrelevant, both go hand in hand. There will always be discrimination, famine, war and terrorism, etc.
The worst part was that they had a lot of setup to adress that. I mean pretty much everything that was bad for Lelouch during R2 was basically his fault.

He took for granted his men, they rebelled.
He saw Rolo as a pawn, Rolo killed Shirley.
The atrocities Lelouch commited, all revealed to the Black Knights.

I mean they had all this setup for Lelouch to figure out a better way to accomplish things, but Okouchi and Taniguchi didn't do it simply because having Lelouch ham it up was far more important than actual developing the character and get across a good message.
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Old 2009-10-06, 23:44   Link #5778
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
The worst part was that they had a lot of setup to adress that. I mean pretty much everything that was bad for Lelouch during R2 was basically his fault.

He took for granted his men, they rebelled.
He saw Rolo as a pawn, Rolo killed Shirley.
The atrocities Lelouch commited, all revealed to the Black Knights.

I mean they had all this setup for Lelouch to figure out a better way to accomplish things, but Okouchi and Taniguchi didn't do it simply because having Lelouch ham it up was far more important than actual developing the character and get across a good message.
Part of Lelouch's flaws where that he did not quite realize when what will happen. Shirley died, only because she confessed to Rolo about helping Lelouch. Rolo even though was a pawn, went and saved Lelouch out of his own accord. That is character development. Rolo who was controlled by his superior, made the decision to stick with Lelouch, because of the time they spent together, including Lelouch saving Rolo's life. He could have watched his actions, but the unpredictability in his life, where something he could not fully associate with chess. Rolo may have been a pawn, but Shirley was not. She was a victim in Lelouch's way, who Lelouch did more for than a pawn.
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Old 2009-10-07, 01:16   Link #5779
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The worst part was that they had a lot of setup to adress that. I mean pretty much everything that was bad for Lelouch during R2 was basically his fault.

He took for granted his men, they rebelled.
He saw Rolo as a pawn, Rolo killed Shirley.
The atrocities Lelouch commited, all revealed to the Black Knights.

I mean they had all this setup for Lelouch to figure out a better way to accomplish things, but Okouchi and Taniguchi didn't do it simply because having Lelouch ham it up was far more important than actual developing the character and get across a good message.
Some of those things were either bad luck, or lies/manipulations/conjectures on part of Schneizel, and to a lesser extent Ohgi/Villetta on the latter when it had to do with the Geass.
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Old 2009-10-07, 02:29   Link #5780
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Some of those things were either bad luck, or lies/manipulations/conjectures on part of Schneizel, and to a lesser extent Ohgi/Villetta on the latter when it had to do with the Geass.
If it wasn't for Schneizel then lelouch might have not been in this mess. The Euphy incident sure bit him in the rear. Ohgi don't like seeing that name he was really incompatent. He should have been punished too.
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