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Old 2009-10-10, 06:35   Link #5861
HollowScar
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Well, you have got to give it to Lelouch. He may have been selfish and callous at times, but he did succeed in making the world a better place. He was even willing to step over his sister to do that. I do not understand why people would hate him, considering the fact that he was selfless, and cared for certain people around him. He does not seem like a person who would be suicidal after attaining geass, but he sacrificed himself, even though he could have been the king (The only one with the geass, and leadership skills). Giving all that responsibly to Suzaku may have been a bit harsh on Suzaku, as he may not be as good a strategist as Lelouch.
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Old 2009-10-10, 06:43   Link #5862
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Well, you have got to give it to Lelouch. He may have been selfish and callous at times, but he did succeed in making the world a better place. He was even willing to step over his sister to do that. I do not understand why people would hate him, considering the fact that he was selfless, and cared for certain people around him. He does not seem like a person who would be suicidal after attaining geass, but he sacrificed himself, even though he could have been the king (The only one with the geass, and leadership skills). Giving all that responsibly to Suzaku may have been a bit harsh on Suzaku, as he may not be as good a strategist as Lelouch.
"because he's a mass murderer" would be a good start
and because he could have made the world a better place using a method that would not require mass murder
but he chose zero-requiem because his own ego wouldnt let him change the world in a more peaceful way
and a willingness to step over his own sister is hardly noble when, again, he doesnt HAVE to

overall he's an awesome character
but his actions during the last arc honestly made me hate him for them
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Old 2009-10-10, 07:35   Link #5863
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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"because he's a mass murderer" would be a good start
and because he could have made the world a better place using a method that would not require mass murder
but he chose zero-requiem because his own ego wouldnt let him change the world in a more peaceful way
and a willingness to step over his own sister is hardly noble when, again, he doesnt HAVE to

overall he's an awesome character
but his actions during the last arc honestly made me hate him for them
Once again, I will repeat that there is no evidence Lulu committed mass murder as Emperor. People died in the battlefield, yes, But Lulu didn't actually execute anyone. It would be easy for Sunrise to show that he did but they didn't. And since the entire Zero Requiem is a lied to begin with, there is no reason for him to kill anyone when they don't have to die.
Chaining people up and shame them in public? Having his sistered do housework as maids and send his brothers into the army? These are far more tame than any supposedly bloodthirsty Emperor I ever heard.

Once again, let me remind you that Lulu is better at making himself looking worse than he is, than in actually committing atrocities. Lulu is consistently shown to be incapable of being as cruel as he say he is.

Zero Requiem is all about lies, not murder. Like everything else about Lulu, it is about theatrics.
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Old 2009-10-10, 08:00   Link #5864
bladeofdarkness
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its stated outright that he was crushing anyone who opposes him in britannia
even C.C points out that those opposing him did so because her took their vested rights away rather then out of some bullshit "racist" reason, which was only natural

and he HIMSELF stated to suzaku, IN PRIVATE that he would spill rivers of blood until euphie was forgotten (considering how many people euhpie killed, he'd have had to kill a lot of people)
he didnt set out to PRETEND he was the worst dictator in history
he set out to BE the worst dictator in history
that was the whole point

so...
lelouch saying in private that he spill rivers of blood+ people saying that he would murder your entire family if you so much as said something bad about him = evidence that he is a mass murderer
we can ARGUE about the evidence, but there IS evidence
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Old 2009-10-10, 08:06   Link #5865
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its stated outright that he was crushing anyone who opposes him in britannia
even C.C points out that those opposing him did so because her took their vested rights away rather then out of some bullshit "racist" reason, which was only natural

and he HIMSELF stated to suzaku, IN PRIVATE that he would spill rivers of blood until euphie was forgotten (considering how many people euhpie killed, he'd have had to kill a lot of people)
he didnt set out to PRETEND he was the worst dictator in history
he set out to BE the worst dictator in history
that was the whole point
Sure, Lulu killed people with his army. But what's so strange about that? Every other ruler in the show did the same. And "vested rights" is just another word for inherited titles. Rights isn't rights if you didn't earn it and no one else has it.
If people want to fight because they want to keep their aristocratic status, that's fine; but their status/titles came from past Emperors, and Lulu had the right to take these away as an Emperor.

Lulu say many things in private. But we have already been shown that Lulu lie to everyone, even himself. Rolo's grave proved it. This is one of the rare cases where someone's words can't be trusted, since that person is a pathological liar.

All I needed to change my mind, is one public execution. ONE. But Lulu did no such thing. Why?
Because the only public execution Lulu had in mind was his own.
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Old 2009-10-10, 08:12   Link #5866
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whether or not you agree with the idea of "inherited titles" is not quite the point
the point is whether or not you agree that people should be killed for objecting to some ass-hole taking the throne (after he admits that he killed the old emperor) and take away their titles within a few days

and why would he lie to suzaku under THOSE circumstances ?
why would he tell him he would kill MORE people then he intended to ?
wouldnt it be the other way around ? (assuming suzaku doesnt enjoy killing people for fun)

lelouch's actions were not SHOWN because it would make it impossible to like him
but that does not mean they didnt happen (they are stated to happen, and he admits to planning them)
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Old 2009-10-10, 08:24   Link #5867
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Lulu lies. Always.

Part of it is that he is always acting. Thus, he plays the part of an evil Emperor. The same way he played the evil brother.

Even executing some of his siblings would have been enough to convince me, even if it would have been considered morally normal for an Emperor. But he did no such thing.

We are at a stalemate; I admit I can't prove definitively that Lulu wasn't lying about killing people, but you can't prove he did anything he said because none of it was shown on screen at any point.

This is really as far as this argument can go, like nearly all other discussions on Code Geass. Facts are few and far between.

For what it's worth, I consider Lulu's "evil monologue" to be directed at the audience, with the intent of miss-directing us on his intentions until the time is right. After all, if we are suppose to know his inner thoughts, we would have found out about Zero Requiem before he actually got stabbed.
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Old 2009-10-10, 08:29   Link #5868
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and why would he lie to suzaku under THOSE circumstances ?
why would he tell him he would kill MORE people then he intended to ?
wouldnt it be the other way around ? (assuming suzaku doesnt enjoy killing people for fun)
Actually, those words were always more an apology to me than anythign else.
Lelouch would never say "Hey, by the way, sorry I killed your girlfriend and let her go down in history as an evil blood-thirtsy beast".
Instead, he says "Oh, by the way, I'm going to spill rivers of blood so that people forget about that!".
Suzaku's reaction shows that he is very much aware of that. He doesn't go all "aw!" because he's thinking, "Awesome! You're such an evil genius, Lulu!".
Now, we don't know how much Lelouch was exaggerating there, but using this scene to show they're complete psychopaths doesn't really work in my opinion.

Also, I think that maybe you're setting too high standards for Lelouch.
You don't blame him because he made the world a living Hell. You blame him because he made it a better place when he could have used less bloody methods.
Lelouch had at least three options: Zero Requiem, finding another way, or concluding that people are fail and only helping himself and maybe his loved ones while leaving the world to Schneizel.
I think we both agree that Zero Requiem was a nicer solution than Damocles, so Lelouch did something good. Hating him just because he could have done something even better, when he has had serious issues from the start, is something I have trouble understanding.
I think what he and Suzaku achieved is amazing. It wasn't perfect, it wasn't nearly as selfless as it could have been, but it was still anything but selfish, and all in all a good thing.
It also showed they were both still flawed, but as much as I think they deserve it, I would have been disappointed if they had "redeemed" themselves by taking the perfect route and maybe even finding happiness in their new world themselves. It might not have been impossible for them, but it would certainly have been far less epic.
Lelouch died the way he lived. As a villainous hero - or a heroic villain. However you want to see him.
And even though it may be true that Lelouch was doing what was necessary before, he also did a lot of things that weren't. He was never perfect, just like he was never a knight in shining armor. That would have been Suzaku's job... if he'd managed to pull it off.
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Old 2009-10-10, 08:49   Link #5869
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Nogitsune made a good point; is Lulu really someone you want to be made Emperor?

Just because you know he means well, and is really skilled at what he does, doesn't mean it is okay to put him in charge. At the very least, Lulu himself doesn't think being Emperor long-term is a good idea.

(Speculation ahead)

I remember a certain ova series, where the main character's Space Fleet was on the verge of blowing up the enemy's flagship, where the enemy Emperor resides. But he was ordered to surrender because his government had been seized by enemy forces.

The main character decided to surrender, even though he could collapse the Empire if only he ignored the order.
Why? Because he believe he would set a dangerous precedent, if a military leader acted against the orders of the civil leaders he served. He believe whatever victory he gets this way would have caused long term effects as those who respect him imitated his actions.

Lulu might well have tried his best to be a good Emperor. He might even succeed. But Lulu doesn't BELIEVE in Emperors, or any other kind of Royalty or Aristocratic title. Being a good Emperor might well have undermined his intention for democracy to take root, as those who want a few to rule over many would point to him as "proof" that Democracy is inferior to Tyranny.

Just my two cents, and as I say, just a theory.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:30   Link #5870
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I remember a certain ova series, where the main character's Space Fleet was on the verge of blowing up the enemy's flagship, where the enemy Emperor resides. But he was ordered to surrender because his government had been seized by enemy forces.

The main character decided to surrender, even though he could collapse the Empire if only he ignored the order.
Why? Because he believe he would set a dangerous precedent, if a military leader acted against the orders of the civil leaders he served. He believe whatever victory he gets this way would have caused long term effects as those who respect him imitated his actions.

Lulu might well have tried his best to be a good Emperor. He might even succeed. But Lulu doesn't BELIEVE in Emperors, or any other kind of Royalty or Aristocratic title. Being a good Emperor might well have undermined his intention for democracy to take root, as those who want a few to rule over many would point to him as "proof" that Democracy is inferior to Tyranny.

Just my two cents, and as I say, just a theory.
An interesting idea, but the problem with it is that Nunally ended up as the Empress. While ZR was created while she was believed dead, a main point of the plan was getting Schneizel as a puppet to make him work for a better world, presumaby putting him as the Emperor with ZeroZaku as his "attendant." While nothing can be proven either way, the case lends itself to the belief that Lelouch did plan to leave an Emperor in charge of Britannia.
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Old 2009-10-10, 10:47   Link #5871
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An interesting idea, but the problem with it is that Nunally ended up as the Empress. While ZR was created while she was believed dead, a main point of the plan was getting Schneizel as a puppet to make him work for a better world, presumaby putting him as the Emperor with ZeroZaku as his "attendant." While nothing can be proven either way, the case lends itself to the belief that Lelouch did plan to leave an Emperor in charge of Britannia.
Schneizel isn't Emperor, whatever gave you that idea? Schneizel's job was to act as the replacement Lelouch, the crafty guy who tricks people into doing things for him. Neither Nunnally nor Suzaku could do this task, so Schneizel fills in as the adviser. And it was obvious Britannia is working towards a constitutional Monarchy, which is what Britain in real life got, when it was decided that not even kings are above the law. That's why Lulu was dismantling social classes as a part of his reform.

There remained a Royal Family; they just can't do whatever they like without civil branches of government saying okay any more.
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:04   Link #5872
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Schneizel isn't Emperor, whatever gave you that idea? Schneizel's job was to act as the replacement Lelouch, the crafty guy who tricks people into doing things for him. Neither Nunnally nor Suzaku could do this task, so Schneizel fills in as the adviser. And it was obvious Britannia is working towards a constitutional Monarchy, which is what Britain in real life got, when it was decided that not even kings are above the law. That's why Lulu was dismantling social classes as a part of his reform.

There remained a Royal Family; they just can't do whatever they like without civil branches of government saying okay any more.
What the hell are you talking about?

All Lelouch did was abolish the rest of the nobility, instead of nearly all power being in the hands of the Emperor like it was in Charles reign, we have ALL power being in the hands of Nunnaly.

Their wasn't a single Britannian introduced who was setup a leader who wasn't a member of the Britannian Royal family.
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Old 2009-10-10, 11:19   Link #5873
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Schneizel isn't Emperor, whatever gave you that idea? Schneizel's job was to act as the replacement Lelouch, the crafty guy who tricks people into doing things for him. Neither Nunnally nor Suzaku could do this task, so Schneizel fills in as the adviser. And it was obvious Britannia is working towards a constitutional Monarchy, which is what Britain in real life got, when it was decided that not even kings are above the law. That's why Lulu was dismantling social classes as a part of his reform.

There remained a Royal Family; they just can't do whatever they like without civil branches of government saying okay any more.
He isn't, but he presumably would have been if Nunally hadn't been revealled to be alive. He would still be under Geass, but he wouldn't "officially" be an advisor, but the actual Emperor. Schneizel had both intelligence and charisma to rival Lelouch, as well as a history of proven success. From the start Schneizel was essential in filling the void that Lelouch's death would create. Nunally and Suzaku are incidental as they both posess the political savvy of a dog turd, and ZeroZaku was only needed to hold Schneizel's chain so to speak.

Also, I don't see any "obvious" signs that Britannia was moving towards constitutional Monarchy, to what are you referring?

One of the keys to the Royal Family's success was that many of them did get into politics to prove themselves as leaders. This kept an even larger share of power with the Royal Family. In any case, only Nunally, Schneizel, and Cornelia remain. All the rest are dead courtesy of the FLEIJA used on Pendragon.

@Charred Knight: Calares, the Viceroy of Area 11 at the start of R2 was only stated to be a Duke, never a part of the Royal Family.
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Old 2009-10-10, 12:11   Link #5874
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Also, I don't see any "obvious" signs that Britannia was moving towards constitutional Monarchy, to what are you referring?
One of the major things Lulu did as Emperor was dismantling the nobility. This in itself weakens the Monarchy, as Aristocrats are traditionally supportive of Kings to prevent "normal" people from gaining power. In fact, it seems to be one of the ONLY things we know for sure Lulu was doing as Emperor. It must have been very important to him if he think Zero Requiem needs a world free of Nobility.

The point here, is that without Nobles the power vacuum could only be filled by normal civilians. This isn't what a Tyranny-based Monarchy would have wanted.
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Old 2009-10-10, 12:21   Link #5875
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you've got it completely backwards
the nobility is a way to LIMIT the power of the monarchy
it puts in power other people who are NOT part of the royal family, and gives them a say in politics
why do you think the magna carta is considered a key in the matters of civil rights despite it being directed only at the nobles
when the king as alone at the top, then he has absoulte power without being accountable to anyone
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Old 2009-10-10, 12:51   Link #5876
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you've got it completely backwards
the nobility is a way to LIMIT the power of the monarchy
it puts in power other people who are NOT part of the royal family, and gives them a say in politics
why do you think the magna carta is considered a key in the matters of civil rights despite it being directed only at the nobles
when the king as alone at the top, then he has absoulte power without being accountable to anyone
That's too far back in history. I am talking about the more historically recent events when Laws (and thus, judges) become more powerful than the King, and that a King was executed for treason for refusing to believe he needs to follow any rules at all. He was then replaced by another imported King with the understanding that he is only allowed in the country if he plays by the rules.

Don't forget, Charles had married 108 wives, most of them he never meet, because of political connections he needed to keep the Empire going. Nobles are needed to keep Kings in power, because they are the ones doing the actual WORK.

Lulu wants civil rights to extend to everyone. He did everything he could as Emperor to make that happen. I fail to see how he wanted a tyrannical rule for Britannia at the end, don't forget that part of the point of Zero Requiem is to make tyrants look bad.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:55   Link #5877
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he left suzaku with shnizel as his pet
whats the point if shnizel isnt in a position of power to run things
and as far as we can see, nunnaly is empress at the end
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:11   Link #5878
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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he left suzaku with shnizel as his pet
whats the point if shnizel isnt in a position of power to run things
and as far as we can see, nunnaly is empress at the end
You said it yourself, he's a pet. Pets don't get positions of power, or they aren't pets anymore.

And my point stands that just because Nunnally is Empress doesn't mean Britannia didn't become a constitutional Monarchy. My evidence, as I said earlier, is that Lulu had dismantled the caste system with great prejudice during his short time as Emperor.
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:29   Link #5879
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the fact lelouch took away the power of everyone else other then himself, is not evidence that britannia is on the path to being a constitutional Monarchy
it just ment he wanted supreme power
he never expressed any problems with the concept of the Monarchy
just with the specific family
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Old 2009-10-10, 16:30   Link #5880
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You said it yourself, he's a pet. Pets don't get positions of power, or they aren't pets anymore.

And my point stands that just because Nunnally is Empress doesn't mean Britannia didn't become a constitutional Monarchy. My evidence, as I said earlier, is that Lulu had dismantled the caste system with great prejudice during his short time as Emperor.
As already mentioned all Lelouch did was condense all the power into the Royal Family, leaving Nunally, Schneizel, and Cornelia as the remaining leaders.

Nunnaly is the sole ruler of Britannia, while Kaguya is basically the sole ruler of the UFN.
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