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Old 2008-05-10, 19:38   Link #601
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Remember how a bunch of angry Japanese broke into Ougi house and was ready to kill Viletta??That's what will be happening when Lelouch win,I can see a massacre of Britanian and Honor Britanian and Lelouch won't be able to prevent that.


I doubt it, he didn't seem to care much about civilians when he destroyed whole blocks in ep25 or when he blew things up in Narita
Meh, once he was in control he'd have been able to deal with it eventually. I never said it was going to be a perfect means either... >_>

Technically, Britannia had already evacuated people from the edges of the settlement when he caused the breakdown, and they had taken shelter for the most part. As for Narita, well, he did regret it after when he realized civilians did get caught in the cross fire, after what happened with Shirley's father. If Britannia had actually done what they were supposed to by conducting such an operation they would have managed to evacuate all the civilians in the nearby residents which is what I think Lelouch was counting on. Plus the impact of the landslide was far more destructive then he had calculated unfortunately... <_<
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-05-10, 19:43   Link #602
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
Remember how a bunch of angry Japanese broke into Ougi house and was ready to kill Viletta??That's what will be happening when Lelouch win,I can see a massacre of Britanian and Honor Britanian and Lelouch won't be able to prevent that.
He can't prevent everyone from doing things like this but he can stop it from getting too wide spread. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.


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I doubt it, he didn't seem to care much about civilians when he destroyed whole blocks in ep25 or when he blew things up in Narita
Most of the people would have evacuated to shelters and not be dumb enough to be in the battle area. If they were there they have no one to blame but themselves. Narita he underestimated the force of the landslide and he said he'd look into it for next time.
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Old 2008-05-10, 19:45   Link #603
KrimzonStriker
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And he regretted it after learning about Shirley's dad as well BTW so don't say he doesn't care about what happens to civilians. He does, which is why he disagrees with the mindless slaughter like the cleansing of the ghettos >_>
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-05-10, 19:47   Link #604
Dann of Thursday
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It's true about the whole break in thing, but there isn't enough evidence to suggest that is what would happen all over.

What civilians? I'm sure there were some, but I didn't see anything other than the army. I'd think they would have gotten most civilians out because it was a war zone anyway. There was sort of a point later on to the Narita thing like when he was amused by how it was more destructive than he thought. Later he found out that it killed Shirley's father and I think something sort of clicked in a sense that he became more aware of what exactly his actions affected everything. He was already concious of it to some degree, but I don't think he was completely there until that incident which was partially the whole point of that little arc. C.C.'s speech during those times sort of talked about it.


I think Taniguchi would be happy to see all this discussion since he seems to do this with his shows a lot in how he wants the viewer to form their own opinion of everything. He does this with the endings too, like how he said it was up to the viewer to decide who won the battle in the last episode of s-CRY-ed.

Overall though, Taniguchi does not truly intend for Lelouch to be a villain or an overly evil person. The fact that they plan on making him more likable as the season goes on is a part of this. He wants people to question Lelouch though.

Regarding Suzaku's whole death wish thing, it was confirmed by Okouchi if I remember correctly that Mao wasn't lying when he said that was truly what Suzaku wanted. He may have wanted to help people to some degree, but deep down he truly wished to die.
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Old 2008-05-10, 20:08   Link #605
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What kind of commander count on his enemy to evacuate the civilians for him?? My opinion is that Lelouch only cares about people he knows or can see, he might not even know about civillians casualties if not for Shirley's father.
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Of course I remember that, but that time it was really impossible to him to know that there was Brittanian live in Ougi's house
This is about how many innocent Britanian and Honor Britanian were killed that day and will be kill when he win the war. It is unavoidable for those kind of killing to happen after a military victory,especially in this case. That's why I prefer something more peaceful like Suzaku's idea of becoming "knight of one",the Japanese will feel bitter but less lives will be lost on both side
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Old 2008-05-10, 20:17   Link #606
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What kind of commander count on his enemy to evacuate the civilians for him?? My opinion is that Lelouch only cares about people he knows or can see, he might not even know about civillians casualties if not for Shirley's father.

This is about how many innocent Britanian and Honor Britanian were killed that day and will be kill when he win the war. It is unavoidable for those kind of killing to happen after a military victory,especially in this case. That's why I prefer something more peaceful like Suzaku's idea of becoming "knight of one",the Japanese will feel bitter but less lives will be lost on both side
One whose smart? Those civilians are Britannian last I checked, what kind of government doesn't evacuate their own citizens when they can? There is no reason they shouldn't have...

Yeah, but it's not like he couldn't stop him once he's in power. Consequences will happen in pursuit of something greater. In any event, I think Suzaku's idea might involve less bloodshed if he'd stop killing so many people himself in order to accomplish it, along with the fact that I don't think he'll be able to really accomplish it, at least on a long enough basis to make a real difference >_>
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-05-10, 20:19   Link #607
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It's true that if Lelouch wins, there probably will be a mass spread killing of Britanians and honorary Britanians. The Japenese would be pretty pissed off, and if they see that they won, their pent-up anger would probably lead to riots agianst the Britanians. There was the who scene in that last episode in S1, where Tamaki, a member of the Black Knights was ready to beat the shit out of Rivalz with his rifle before Lelouch stopped him. And after Lelouch was gone, he was still ready to shoot and kill the student council, or at least the ones who was there, which was Rivalz, Shirley, and Milly. In fact, if Lelouch wasn't Zero, do you think any of them would hesitate about killing Nunally? When a minority in power is oppressing a majority, and then that power is taken away, the majority will take vengence on the minority. For example, in Iraq, the Sunni minority were in power and the Shiite majority was being oppressed. Does this mean that all of the Sunni were assholes who were oppressing the Shiite? However, after the United States invaded and removed the Sunni from power, the Shiite began exterminating the Sunni. And then, as the Sunni minority began to be exterminated, they formed thier own groups and fought back. And then the U.S. is trying to keep the peace and getting hurt by both groups. However, the Sunni don't want the U.S. army to leave right now because they feel that if they left, then there will be nothing to stop the Shiite from wiping out all of the Sunni. The point is, when a minority (Sunni)/(Britanians) is in power over a majority (Shiite)/(Japenese), and that power is removed by an outside force (U.S. army)/(Zero's Order of the Black Knights), than the formerly oppressed majority is going to begin riots targeting the minority no matter what the outside force which had stopped the oppression says or tries to do. So the amusing thing is that technically there is a greater chance of Nunally dieing if Lelouch's plan works than if Suzuku's plan works, though Lelouch places greater emphasis on Nunally than Suzuku probably does.
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Old 2008-05-10, 20:20   Link #608
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
What kind of commander count on his enemy to evacuate the civilians for him?? My opinion is that Lelouch only cares about people he knows or can see, he might not even know about civillians casualties if not for Shirley's father.

This is about how many innocent Britanian and Honor Britanian were killed that day and will be kill when he win the war. It is unavoidable for those kind of killing to happen after a military victory,especially in this case. That's why I prefer something more peaceful like Suzaku's idea of becoming "knight of one",the Japanese will feel bitter but less lives will be lost on both side
What happens after Suzaku dies? What if he never gets appointed to it? They'd continue to be living as second class citizens not would change. I think many of the Japanese would share Zero's view that he'd rather be dead that powerless to change his own life. Some people would let a bully beat them up for the rest of their lives while others would go to the gym and get stronger to defeat the bully. Sometimes blood needs to be spilled when words aren't enough.
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Old 2008-05-10, 20:23   Link #609
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
It's true that if Lelouch wins, there probably will be a mass spread killing of Britanians and honorary Britanians. The Japenese would be pretty pissed off, and if they see that they won, their pent-up anger would probably lead to riots agianst the Britanians. There was the who scene in that last episode in S1, where Tamaki, a member of the Black Knights was ready to beat the shit out of Rivalz with his rifle before Lelouch stopped him. And after Lelouch was gone, he was still ready to shoot and kill the student council, or at least the ones who was there, which was Rivalz, Shirley, and Milly. In fact, if Lelouch wasn't Zero, do you think any of them would hesitate about killing Nunally? When a minority in power is oppressing a majority, and then that power is taken away, the majority will take vengence on the minority. For example, in Iraq, the Sunni minority were in power and the Shiite majority was being oppressed. Does this mean that all of the Sunni were assholes who were oppressing the Shiite? However, after the United States invaded and removed the Sunni from power, the Shiite began exterminating the Sunni. And then, as the Sunni minority began to be exterminated, they formed thier own groups and fought back. And then the U.S. is trying to keep the peace and getting hurt by both groups. However, the Sunni don't want the U.S. army to leave right now because they feel that if they left, then there will be nothing to stop the Shiite from wiping out all of the Sunni. The point is, when a minority (Sunni)/(Britanians) is in power over a majority (Shiite)/(Japenese), and that power is removed by an outside force (U.S. army)/(Zero's Order of the Black Knights), than the formerly oppressed majority is going to begin riots targeting the minority no matter what the outside force which had stopped the oppression says or tries to do. So the amusing thing is that technically there is a greater chance of Nunally dieing if Lelouch's plan works than if Suzuku's plan works, though Lelouch places greater emphasis on Nunally than Suzuku probably does.
Hey, at least he tries to stop them, which means he does care. This is more about long-lasting change for the most part. Winning independence and gaining control of the entire country would have allowed him to eventually install his mantra of equal protection. In any event, we don't really know what would have happened now that he's failed, and I find it funny a terrorist organization like the Order is being compared to the U.S. Zero is no where near as hated by the Japanese as they are...
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-05-10, 20:29   Link #610
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
He only came out because he gained the geass which moved up his plans. He would have captured Cornelia on two seperate occasions had Suzaku not interfered. The plan wasn't perfect as it only a small piece of land who knows if they would have taken back sometime later.

The elevens were never shown to have any influence on their lives. I don't even know if they could own property unless you call those run down buildings property looks more like squatting to me. I hardly call Kirihara influence as he was bribing officials and hiding his real beliefs while working for the resistance. That not going to help the starving people in the ghettos or those working in the city getting abused. So if their not as powerful as their enemy they should bend over and take it? Man they would have fun with you in prison you just give it to them without even a fight.
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
It's more along the lines of immense segregation for the majority of the population. Kirihara and the others were simply puppets to shore up support and were more capable of extracting the Sakuradite. Tools, high payed tools, but still tools in the end >_>
Same subject, so I'm gonna reply to you both together.

On the subject of "Japan would already be free if Suzaku wasn't there", I'd like to point out that Suzaku not interfering doesn't necessarily mean that Lancelot wouldn't. It's a valuable and powerful weapon that Lloyd very much wants data on, and if some Britannian were the one piloting it I think they'd be even more willing to use it to screw up Lelouch's plans. No guarantee there, in any case.

Kirihara's wealth (also presumably the other noble families) and influence indicates that the Japanese were very much able to succeed and live well under the Britannian system, although they were tremendously wealthy before the invasion. Lelouch had more than six possible identities for the 'head of Kyoto' as well, and I'm certain those weren't all the reasonably wealthy Japanese. It'd certainly be fallacious to claim that all of the Japanese were living in rags in the ghettos.

The segregation also wasn't enforced, although honourary Britannians suffered from quite a bit of discrimination. Still, however, a life like that isn't meaningless, and the oppression could certainly have been a lot worse. Hope eventually came in the form of the SAZ and Suzaku as a role model. With all this in mind, I don't think war was the only solution by far.

Anyway, as for the rest, Krimzon:

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I think your getting there... but not quite. Power, strength, are tools, they don't speak of the people or the kind of character they carry. It is our humanity itself that makes us equal, not what we can or cannot do, and that is where I believe he places his value on. Power is not something you use to measure a person, not something you should use in any event. In this case, might makes things happen, but that doesn't make it right, which is what Lelouch emphasizes. So not so much a distinction, because capability and strength is merely a fact, it is the conscious that a person carries where he places his value I believe, which is why he prizes his sister so much because of what she embodies in that respect, which is why he doesn't believe it fair she should be tossed aside for not being as able, something he doesn't think should matter in measuring a persons life. So people are equal in a sense, strength is merely a tool some people have and others don't in this world, but by no means does that make them better in his view or give them a right to impose that type of distinction because it doesn't speak of who they are.
:P Sorry, but I think that's about as close we'll get to agreeing on this topic as we will. I'm not too sure that interpretation of Lelouch's values you have is definitively supported by the show, because what Lelouch loves about Nunally can't be something very many other people have. Nunally is weak, but she is also gentle, kind, and cheerful, qualities which I very much doubt he'll find in every (or even most) other weak people. I can't say he would promise justice or equality for them.

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But unconscious desires have a profound effect on the actions he takes, which is what Mao managed to deduce for us. Perhaps his desire to help is there, but the means in which he goes about it do not resonate that desire more then his desire to simply die and be punished for his guilt.
It may not even be an unconcious desire. Suicidal thoughts very rarely indicate intention. I think there are some statistics about how the suicide attempt rate for females is ridiculously larger than for males, but the suicide success rate is also correspondingly much lower? The point is, Suzaku had long constructed a purpose for his life which was only strengthened by his interactions with Euphie. The only time he ever demonstrated explicit suicidal behaviour was during an incident where Lelouch had physically and psychologically pushed him into a corner. In all other instances, Suzaku tried his best to survive and was happy when he did. I really do not place very much stock in Suzaku's purported 'suicidal tendencies' at all.

Not to mention, Suzaku cared a lot about the Japanese people before he even had a reason to be suicidal; that was actually his motivation for killing his father after all. Since that sentiment was genuine then, why exactly wouldn't it still hold true now?

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But Suzaku didn't do that... he didn't even consider it, ever. In this respect, he was the one who refused to give them even a chance to prove otherwise... <_<
Good point. That just goes to show even more how similar Lelouch and Suzaku are in terms of their determination to succeed.


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Well, Britannia is pursuing an agenda that Lelouch opposes because they themselves impose their will on others simply because they can, so they are the enemy, the enemy he as to destroy. What else can he do except kill them when they seek to do the same to him? As for civilians, well, Lelouch tries to avoid that as much as possible, in many respects he also helps them as well, and avoids the flagrant discrimination like with so many others. But the reality of the world will put some people in harms way who didn't have anything to do it no matter how hard he tries otherwise. He'll accept that though, and the burden of its consequences at face value, which is where I disagree with you saying he deludes himself otherwise. He already realizes that, C.C told him as much that his struggle would consume the world and by no means would it be burden free, but he accepted that as well anyway. I admire him for having a goal and having the ability to see it through, and accept whatever consequences he will have to endure because of it. It speaks of a strength of character that I could never imagine.
Hahaha, well said. I suppose I can understand your admiration of Lelouch's determination and perseverence (although, I gotta say, if you're into that about Lelouch you might also want to consider the weight and reality of what Suzaku is trying to take on for himself. Hatred, prejudice, the scorn of his own people--that he can hold onto his convictions and goodwill is just as impressive.). Still, though, there is a bit of arrogance in having that kind of determination. The world would be a much harder place if everybody gave their all for what they want. Just look at Code Geass right now, and the bitterness that arises with just two people believing they 'must win'. Hard work and perseverence can achieve great things, but it works best when you're the only one; it's always a little sad to think about the effort that was wasted when someone loses.

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Oh so now your speaking of the intentions he carried for each of his sins. Okay, let's get too it then... >_>

On the last parts, they were pretty asshole things to do, but then again they were understandable asshole things for him to do. The JLF was a terrorist organization that took his friends hostage and killed innocent civilians on purpose, and were close-minded and violently responsive to him before. So we can see why they didn't get much in the way of his sympathy when they got themselves into trouble... Plus, they were going to probably die anyway given the situation, so instead of actually causing anything that wouldn't have already happened he rode along and made the most of an already bad situation. Not the most merciful or nice things for him to do, but honestly I can see why he would versus the potential benefits he would have been able to reap for the cause. Rolo is another story, but also understandable, the guy kept him on a leash for about a year, was a part of the conspiracy that removed his sister from his life and even altered his friends memories as well, and was about to kill him 3 times to boot already... I can see why he wouldn't be apathetic to him, even though I agree with you that I hope he gets over it. And just because he doesn't regret it doesn't necessarily make him think what he's doing is right either, hence the hesitation with detonating the bomb until it was absolutely too late for the JLF to survive anyway and how he made that speech about needing to embrace carnage right after placing it in 13 during the speech to Kallen. And Rolo is by no means an action he justifies to himself, he's just taking that issue very personally is all. Though I agree, I hope he stops being a deouche and learns to accept Rolo soon now that he's converted him... <_<
hm, no, I agree with you, pretty much. I think my point was precisely that Lelouch's actions are very understandable. Because Lelouch can think that, he can avoid thinking of their deaths as a sin and avoid carrying the burden of the meaning of their lives. I don't really know where I was going with this point in the first place though, because I'm not out to make Lelouch look evil or anything. If it's alright, we can just drop it, yeah?
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Old 2008-05-10, 20:34   Link #611
orangejuicetang
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Well, I was just trying to point out that both the U.S. and the Order would be the outside powers that removed the minority from power, and forgot about the how terroist thing

Though winning control of the empire and installing equal rights for everyone wouldn't exactly help him if Nunually dies in the inital violence. Wouldn't that be ironic if the reason that Nunually dies is because Lelouch suceeds? Lelouch: "Nunually where are you, I finally defeated Britannia so we can live peacefully in a perfect world. Nunally where are you?" C.C./Suzuku/Kallen/anyone else who knows about Lelouch and Nunually: "You realize that as soon as you declared victory and defeated the empire there was a huge mob of Japenese that went around killing Britianians right? And since sister happens to be blind and alone in a huge mansion that is kind of hard to miss, the mob came to the mansion and ... long story short, she's dead. You should have thought about the consequences a bit more huh" Lelouch: "Fuck"
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Old 2008-05-10, 21:05   Link #612
DN24
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What happens after Suzaku dies?
That will be too far into the future and I don't think we should get there.btw :What will happen after Lelouch dies??
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What if he never gets appointed to it? They'd continue to be living as second class citizens not would change
we don't know what will happen if Suzaku or Lelouch succeeded but we already know what happened if Lelouch fail and next time he fail there's no guarantee that Britania won't exterminate the whole race

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My question is what Suzaku need to do to become the Knight of One? Kill Zero? Help Brittania conquer the world? How many more lives going to lost with his method?
While it's probably true that a less lives will be lost from Brittanian and Japanese by his mean, can we really say the same about the whole world?
Well, at least Suzaku has never killed a single civilian.It's true that to reach his goal Suzaku will have to do more killing but that's also true for Lelouch since he's not going to stop after Japan and his methods are always very destructive,we can assume that whatever Suzaku is up to he won't kill as much as Lelouch will.
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Old 2008-05-10, 21:07   Link #613
KrimzonStriker
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Same subject, so I'm gonna reply to you both together.

On the subject of "Japan would already be free if Suzaku wasn't there", I'd like to point out that Suzaku not interfering doesn't necessarily mean that Lancelot wouldn't. It's a valuable and powerful weapon that Lloyd very much wants data on, and if some Britannian were the one piloting it I think they'd be even more willing to use it to screw up Lelouch's plans. No guarantee there, in any case.

Kirihara's wealth (also presumably the other noble families) and influence indicates that the Japanese were very much able to succeed and live well under the Britannian system, although they were tremendously wealthy before the invasion. Lelouch had more than six possible identities for the 'head of Kyoto' as well, and I'm certain those weren't all the reasonably wealthy Japanese. It'd certainly be fallacious to claim that all of the Japanese were living in rags in the ghettos.

The segregation also wasn't enforced, although honourary Britannians suffered from quite a bit of discrimination. Still, however, a life like that isn't meaningless, and the oppression could certainly have been a lot worse. Hope eventually came in the form of the SAZ and Suzaku as a role model. With all this in mind, I don't think war was the only solution by far.
Perhaps it wasn't the only solution, but I feel it was far more effective and viable then the one Suzaku proposed. That's me and a lot of other people I suppose, especially considering the type of environment Suzaku and even Euphie were trying to impose their reforms through... It's simply more to the point that the Britannian system of government itself leads me to think he was shooting in the dark with his ideas... >_>

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Anyway, as for the rest, Krimzon:



:P Sorry, but I think that's about as close we'll get to agreeing on this topic as we will. I'm not too sure that interpretation of Lelouch's values you have is definitively supported by the show, because what Lelouch loves about Nunally can't be something very many other people have. Nunally is weak, but she is also gentle, kind, and cheerful, qualities which I very much doubt he'll find in every (or even most) other weak people. I can't say he would promise justice or equality for them.
I didn't say that either, what I'm getting at is that the scale he's probably measuring is the content of their character, whether they have 'justice' he emphasizes. Power is a tool, it doesn't determine what kind of character the person using it has. Whether they're weak or strong if they're slime they're slime. Look at what happened between him and the JLF and the Chinese back Japanese government, not just with Britannia. Relatively speaking, I'd say most people are probably decent and are just trying to get along with their lives. Which is why I think he can understand and sympathize those who are just trying to scrap a living like with that hot-dog vendor in Turn 9. Unfortunately life, and people who are scum and use power as a means to ruin that peace, just won't leave them alone...


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It may not even be an unconcious desire. Suicidal thoughts very rarely indicate intention. I think there are some statistics about how the suicide attempt rate for females is ridiculously larger than for males, but the suicide success rate is also correspondingly much lower? The point is, Suzaku had long constructed a purpose for his life which was only strengthened by his interactions with Euphie. The only time he ever demonstrated explicit suicidal behaviour was during an incident where Lelouch had physically and psychologically pushed him into a corner. In all other instances, Suzaku tried his best to survive and was happy when he did. I really do not place very much stock in Suzaku's purported 'suicidal tendencies' at all.

Not to mention, Suzaku cared a lot about the Japanese people before he even had a reason to be suicidal; that was actually his motivation for killing his father after all. Since that sentiment was genuine then, why exactly wouldn't it still hold true now?
During the flash-backs in episode 16, we saw all the instances where the prospect of his survival was grim, and Mao helped elaborate that each of those instances were just Suzaku putting himself on the line so he could die. Turn 8 when he stared straight down the barrel, Turn 1 when he refused orders and ended up getting shot for it, and other instances. The writers said it was true, how can you not take that seriously when the staff indicated as such?

It's not that the sentiment may not have been there, it's just that I question how much of it was his actual motivation since beneath that he also just wants to die, and that wouldn't have helped anyone in the end.

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Good point. That just goes to show even more how similar Lelouch and Suzaku are in terms of their determination to succeed.
Meh, at least Lelouch considered it with Euphie during the SAR thing. Suzaku never even gave Zero a chance, he closed him down despite everything he did for him. That can go back to our argument about whether or not Lelouch is really enforcing his opinion on anyone, because now we have a person who did make a choice in the opposite direction.


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Hahaha, well said. I suppose I can understand your admiration of Lelouch's determination and perseverence (although, I gotta say, if you're into that about Lelouch you might also want to consider the weight and reality of what Suzaku is trying to take on for himself. Hatred, prejudice, the scorn of his own people--that he can hold onto his convictions and goodwill is just as impressive.). Still, though, there is a bit of arrogance in having that kind of determination. The world would be a much harder place if everybody gave their all for what they want. Just look at Code Geass right now, and the bitterness that arises with just two people believing they 'must win'. Hard work and perseverence can achieve great things, but it works best when you're the only one; it's always a little sad to think about the effort that was wasted when someone loses.
I would relate more with Suzaku if I didn't recall him wanting to just die so much, which is why his often implausible sounding preaching made so much sense, and felt like such a cop out in the end. He wouldn't have needed to endure all of that, it was actually because he couldn't endure it, that he sought to die.

It's the nature of the game unfortunately, and I like how he hopes that if he succeeds there won't be a need for that kind of debacle to happen again. Suzaku too I suppose, though that was tainted by his deeper desire to die, thus making the motivation for and hard wok ultimately worthless had he gotten his wish. Also thus making them an utter lie since he wouldn't have been able to do anything if he had intended to die in the end instead of trying to accomplish something in that regard.

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hm, no, I agree with you, pretty much. I think my point was precisely that Lelouch's actions are very understandable. Because Lelouch can think that, he can avoid thinking of their deaths as a sin and avoid carrying the burden of the meaning of their lives. I don't really know where I was going with this point in the first place though, because I'm not out to make Lelouch look evil or anything. If it's alright, we can just drop it, yeah?
Pretty much, I think you just misconstrued the difference I was making between the actual goals and the means in which he implements to achieve them. Really, in his mind they were enemies like the Britannians he's killed up to this point, and so it would be easier for him to do what he does. That doesn't mean he justifies it to himself, C.C said it already about all the people he's killed up to this point, and he accepted that. He just doesn't dwell on it as much because understandably they mean less to him after all the things he's endured because of their actions. So yeah, anger prevails over sympathy in this case, but by no means do I think he's 'justifies' anything he does to himself in that sense. So anyway, yeah, let's drop it already.

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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
That will be too far into the future and I don't think we should get there.btw :What will happen after Lelouch dies??

we don't know what will happen if Suzaku or Lelouch succeeded but we already know what happened if Lelouch fail and next time he fail there's no guarantee that Britania won't exterminate the whole race


Well, at least Suzaku has never killed a single civilian.It's true that to reach his goal Suzaku will have to do more killing but that's also true for Lelouch since he's not going to stop after Japan and his methods are always very destructive,we can assume that whatever Suzaku is up to he won't kill as much as Lelouch will.
All of this is speculation, but its in consideration for the value system. On Suzaku's part, even if he was Governor it wouldn't reach the span of the whole empire, whose philosophy is opposite of his, and Japan won't be able to resist any further implementation of that philosophy down the line after Suzaku because of that unless Britannia as a whole changes. Lelouch on the other hand, is seeking to create a movement that speaks to people around the world, and he'll work to ensure that by eliminating any threat to it, which is more likely to secure the future in his case.

Technically we saw a glimpse of Suzaku's 'success' the last time during the SAR, and how it was just being used as a means to disarm the insurgents. Oh and it failed BTW. Not the most confident inspiring thing. And technically we haven't seen Lelouch succeed yet either, but from what he has accomplished thus far its a pretty good and solid basis from where I'm standing. And Britannia could do that to the Japanese anytime they want so long as they are in power >_>

Oh so helping his overlords wipe out an entire ghetto during Turn 2 suddenly makes his hands clean? It's precisely because he furthers the goals of a political body that has no compunction about this kind of thing that makes him worst then Lelouch. At least the latter tries to reign it in and is more capable of that then a grunt like Suzaku. Suzaku might not kill as much, but what about Britannia, the ones he works for, as a whole? If your going to put Lelouch responsible for possible deaths if he had succeeded during the Black Rebellion at least acknowledge that much on Suzaku's part... >_>

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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Well, I was just trying to point out that both the U.S. and the Order would be the outside powers that removed the minority from power, and forgot about the how terroist thing

Though winning control of the empire and installing equal rights for everyone wouldn't exactly help him if Nunually dies in the inital violence. Wouldn't that be ironic if the reason that Nunually dies is because Lelouch suceeds? Lelouch: "Nunually where are you, I finally defeated Britannia so we can live peacefully in a perfect world. Nunally where are you?" C.C./Suzuku/Kallen/anyone else who knows about Lelouch and Nunually: "You realize that as soon as you declared victory and defeated the empire there was a huge mob of Japenese that went around killing Britianians right? And since sister happens to be blind and alone in a huge mansion that is kind of hard to miss, the mob came to the mansion and ... long story short, she's dead. You should have thought about the consequences a bit more huh" Lelouch: "Fuck"
Yeah, but technically the Order isn't a foreign entity that is hated by everyone like the USA was in Iraq so I put there odds better then with the USA <_<

Which is also why he tried to protect her by taking over the school. Can't foresee everything though, you can only make the best of what the situation has to offer. And what would you have wanted him to do, not rebel and let Britannia walk all over him anyway? >_>
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Last edited by KrimzonStriker; 2008-05-10 at 21:25.
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Old 2008-05-10, 21:24   Link #614
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No, what I was saying was that Lelouch doesn't actually think that he is evil. Whenever he does bad stuff by accident, he feels guilty about it, but since it was an accident it's not enough for him to actually think of himself as evil. Other times he does evil stuff, he comes up with reasons and excuses like you've just done up there, further allowing himself to think that he isn't evil. Thus, everybody's claims that Lelouch doesn't 'justify' himself aren't true; Lelouch does justify himself, he just doesn't bother telling anybody else about it.
Personally I do think he thinks himself as evil - his line if episode 4 does hint at that much. But if you want to believe otherwise, feel free to...
As far as accidents go - accidents are just accidents IMHO - otherwise we might as well call anyone who kills someone or becomes the cause of someone's death by accident a murderer .

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I don't have a problem with believing that Lelouch might care about Japan somewhat, but the thing is it isn't a top priority for him unlike Suzaku. The thing with the United States of Japan is that, since Lelouch's main goal is helping Nunally, it could have been any other country: the United States of Area 18 or whatever, just anywhere where people would resist Britannia. Suzaku's main goal, though, is helping Japan, so if he were to make an independant country, it would have to be Japan; not only that, but it would have to be all of Japan where there are people wishing for peace. Otherwise, Britannia could just threaten to kill the people in the parts of Japan it still had and Suzaku would have to give up.
From what is told to us, he choose Japan for two reasons: First, Japans resistence to Brittania was the greatest out of all areas and secondly, both he and Nunnally had come to care for Japan to some extent. Not his priority? True enough I suppose, though it was supposed to come about before he truly begun his fight against Brittania. As for Suzaku.. I dunno, wasn't his priority goal to die?

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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang
It's true that if Lelouch wins, there probably will be a mass spread killing of Britanians and honorary Britanians. The Japenese would be pretty pissed off, and if they see that they won, their pent-up anger would probably lead to riots agianst the Britanians.
Well, we'll see about that. Though there might not necressarilly be mass killings, I can't imagine things getting comfortable for them, at least - things seldom do for the people who came as conquerors, nor for those who choose to cooperate with them...
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Old 2008-05-10, 22:28   Link #615
orangejuicetang
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Don't get me wrong, I think it's good that Lelouch is rebelling agianst Britainnia. I just feel that there will be tragic consequences if his plan succeds, if for the sole purpose that it would be dramatic and bittersweet. Even though I personally dislike bitterseet endings, so I am personally hoping that everything will work itself out. And also, the fact is that Nunnually was pretty much alone in the mansion was one of the reasons that Mao was able to kidnap her so easily. What Lelouch needs to do is to hire an amazing bodyguard for Nunually, one that could handle a mob of untrained people easily. Actually, that was exactly what Lelouch was planning on doing after saving Nunually from Mao, except things with the person he was planning on having protect Nunually (Suzuku) didn't go as planned.

Looking at history, when a minority that is oppressing the majority loses power, there is usually widespread killing of the minority afterward. But this is anime so it doesn''t necessarily have to happen.

And also I don't see either Lelouch or Suzuku as evil or hate either of them. I just see them as two complete opposites who happen to have the same goal, but being completely opposite, they have opposite ways of achieving it. Kinda of like the Suzuku's ying to Lelouch's yang, or vice versa. I mean, just look at the beginning of Episode 5, where they were all like "I was thrown away by my country, I was forced to throw away my country, I am Japenese yet a Britiannian solider, I am Zero a Britiannian fighting for Japan, ect." In fact, the only way they could be more opposite is if one of them was a girl. But imagining either as a girl is kind of creepy... Is it just me or does childhood best friend = present time worst enemy in anime?
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Old 2008-05-10, 22:36   Link #616
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Well, it might seem like this show is heading for a dramatic and bittersweet ending, but Taniguchi doesn't seem to do endings like that. Doesn't mean it can't happen though.
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Old 2008-05-10, 22:38   Link #617
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Looking at history, when a minority that is oppressing the majority loses power, there is usually widespread killing of the minority afterward. But this is anime so it doesn''t necessarily have to happen
Depends on, really. For example, when Denmark and Norway were freed from the german occupations, ten thousands of people were arrested for having been part of the occupation force or for having helped the occupationing force in some way (collaborators), but in the end, only about fifty people in both countries were actually killed (were Lelouch to succeed in freeing Japan, then Suzaku would be in the high risk-zone though, as he'd most certainly be found guilty of high treason against his country)...

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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Is it just me or does childhood best friend = present time worst enemy in anime?
Yeah, there has certainly be quite a few animes lately where the main chara's best friend becomes his worst enemy, hasn't it?
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Old 2008-05-11, 01:12   Link #618
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I'm a little bit late on the discussion, but I just want to add that there is concrete evidence as to the notion that Suzaku does indeed want to die. All the way back to episode 4 of S1 when Suzaku was being paraded to his eventual execution, Lelouch hatches a plan to use the 'poison gas' as a bartering tool for Suzaku's release.

Now if you all still remember the events that took place, only Lelouch and Suzaku know the actual contents of the supposed bomb. Any man who desires to live would have kept quiet about such information, knowing full well your executors believe that it is poisonous gas. Suzaku does the complete opposite...

According to gg/Dominos sub,

"No! That's..."

If it wasn't for the shock collar around his neck, Suzaku would have foolishly revealed that Lelouch is in fact bluffing. This is not something a man who wants to live would do, but someone who has a death wish...either that or said man is a complete idiot. This should be enough evidence that what Mao said has some credibility to it, but one can't dismiss that Suzaku might be stupid enough not to realize such a simple fact.

We also can't forget that Suzaku was willing to sacrifice himself to ensure Zero's death. If it wasn't for Lelouch's "LIVE!!!" command, Suzaku would have achieved his life long goal of death. Not sure about R2 Suzaku, but S1 Suzaku clearly wanted to die.


and there is usually a period of anarchy whenever power switches hands. This usually occurs when the oppressed turns the tables on their former masters, years/decades of brutality is bound to build up some anger even amongst the most peaceful of people. This period of looting/sacking/raping/etc is an inevitable fate if Lelouch's plan does succeed, but I'm sure he has already thought of something to minimize the damages caused by the eventual uproar.

Edit:Just checked the whole Battle of Narita thing and Britannia did in fact order an evacuation of the entire region. Since it was a surprise attack by Cornelia, they may have only started evacuating as the fight started (although it doesn't explain as to why the entire town/city was already deserted). Civilians who were caught in the landslide were those unfortunate enough to either not make it out in time or just ignored the warnings altogether.

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Old 2008-05-11, 23:29   Link #619
Blue_Mercy
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So now Lelouch is broken, Nunnally is trying to form her own path with the very person that sold out her brother.

I'm not sure what Rolo and Kallen will say or what Kallen will do() with Lelouch next time to get him back, but maybe Lelouch will finally start fighting for himself.
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Old 2008-05-11, 23:32   Link #620
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Good for him if he does, I have been saying from the beginning that he needed to expand his horizons and emotional support base a little more and it looks like that's going to be happening soon in a timely manner
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