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Old 2010-01-05, 21:22   Link #6581
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
doesn't mean he can just throw everything they spent years fighting for aside
It doesn't mean he should, but it also doesn't mean it's not a perfectly understandable emotional reaction, You want a flawless hero... well, there aren't many of those. Hell, even Superman has his dick moments (not counting Superdickery). Lelouch isn't perfect, he's human (insofar as one can except a fictional character to be).

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
season 1 lelouch cares only about nunnaly
full stop
the moment she reveals that she has her own plans, he has a heroic BSOD and almost quites completely since he's no longer needed
japan is still under occupation, its people still suffer
but none of that relates to lelouch anymore, since he's involvement in the japanese liberation cause is entirely dependent on a different cause
up until ep 7 of season 2, lelouch is entirely focused on nunnaly
he says it himself in ep 6, that the OOBK and zero, exist solely for nunnaly's sake
This may not be the best thing, given the circumstances, but it's likewise not as bad as you're making it out to be. He was faced with ruining his sister's dream and couldn't bring himself to, then did once he got talked into being better.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
am i the only one who thinks the fact that he caused euphie to massacre japanese people for his own political gain is something for which the OOBK are REASONABLE for turning on him ?
are you REALLY under the impression that none of the things that he DID were good reasons ?
It would have been reasonable, had that much actually been proven, but it wasn't. Schneizel played two seconds of tape and Ohgi towed the line like a dumbass. Reasonable lost any application to that situation when Ohgi started talking.
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Old 2010-01-05, 22:39   Link #6582
Betteroffer
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The whole thing with Lelouch being secretly evil comes down to Alternate Character Interpretations. Perhaps Lelouch is just a prick, or perhaps his obsession with seeming so evil is a result of him deluding himelf rather than others in regards to his nature. Perhaps Lelouch wants to believe he is evil because otherwise, the things he does would have a measure of good in them. Perhaps for all his brilliance, Lelouch doesn't want to accept that a person like Zero is the only way the world can become a better place, so Zero "has" to be a Villain With Good Publicity. It's similar to how Suzaku believed he was seeking death in order to atone for his mistakes, when in reality it was simple escapism.

For all his declarations of evil, sinister smirks, and references to battles as 'games', Lelouch was still disgusted by what happened in Shinjuku, Saitama, Kawaguchi, Shirley's father, and Euphemia, while someone like Light wouldn't care, or be laughing hysterically.

His pastime was taking over matches for people who held debts to noblemen, he tried to help the truck drivers even after they almost ran him and Rivalz over, he saved an old couple from a hussler and didn't even brag about it, he didn't keep Euphemia as a hostage or Geass her to perform any acts of sabotage, he acted to protect a hotdog vendor and then played it off and didn't even ask for free food, his is voice carried clear concern when he realized who Kallen's mother was, he ordered a retreat in Narita precisely because the battle had become "a war of attrition", he was shocked by C.C.'s asking if he planned to kill Shirley if she was the one who uncovered who he was, and still tried to save her even after everything, and regretted the trauma he caused her, he refused to Geass or assassinate Suzaku and even stopped Kallen from trying, he ordered Suzaku to "Live" rather than just save him on Shikine, at the Giant Pizza festival in the first season he said in a relieved tone "No one will die here if I make a mistake", he protected a child from being beaten by a nobleman, he decided to join the SAZ even though it would hurt his own plans, and told Rolo not to kill Suzaku after the latter helped mindrape him.

A villain shrugs of collateral damage. A villain does not hunch over in a bathtub forcibly remembering the worst moments of his life to keep his resolve up, just because his not-girlfriend's father ignored a government ordered evacuation of a combat zone.

Lelouch is no saint, but he isn't nearly the villain some think he is...until the last arc.

Last edited by Betteroffer; 2010-01-06 at 01:48.
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Old 2010-01-05, 23:48   Link #6583
Laurcus
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
Lelouch is no saint, but he isn't nearly the villain some think he is...until the last arc.
Exactly why I don't like the final arc.
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Old 2010-01-06, 02:07   Link #6584
Zantetsuken
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To me, even in the last arc Lelouch was still a hero, a hero with a bad publicity (that he chose himself). If he didn't go with the Zero Requiem, then Schneizel would carry out his plan, which will have more dire consequences for the world as he plan nuking large cities around the world. It was either the Zero Requiem that has little loss of life or Damocles Requiem that will have millions die to achieve world peace.
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Old 2010-01-06, 02:15   Link #6585
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the tech thing is not the real problem

its possible the damocles began construction even before they perfected the float unit tech (it was being developed for years before it was implemented) with the intention of having it use the float unit tech once its completely effective
and even without the flejia's, an untouchable fortress filled to the brim with the most advance weapons in the world (imagine an army of KMF's on par with the lancelot) while the rest of the world is stuck using 4th and 5th gens is still a VERY good way to establish deterrence (its only rakshata's tech that levels the playing field)
its less effective then the flejia, but still a very threatening proposition
What weapons? It didn't have anything else! It really falls under poor animation as actually putting weapons on it and the airships is too obvious to have been ignored thus it was just a matter of no one bothering to show anything. For example, dialogue indicates that all the airships have shields while all the visuals completely contradict this by both showing us shields on two of them and no shields on the rest of them.

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the air fleets on both sides are understandable once you remember that you had none-float-unit based air weapons before the float units became so readily available
Huh? Having aircraft does not equal the ability to spawn fleets of flying battleships a year after the tech that flies them is actually made useable.

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it could be that the OOBK's float units are old models retrofited with float units (like the land based pyramids the CF uses)
And the point is that if the floats are this widespread now why were the Chinese supported Japanese troops crossing the straights by boat only a year ago?

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the 9th gen isn't that hard to believe once you remember that aside from the energy wings, the albion is practicely the exact model as the original lancelot
There's not even the remotest indication that he original Lancelot could survive accelerations required to break the sound barrier or in the case of the Gurren's unveiling, a not insignificant portion of c. This is especially problematic given that all the 7th gen flyers are generally portrayed as rather slow as far as aircraft are concerned and if you can pack the energy for that much speed into something that can practically crouch down to the size of a VW beetle why wasn't everyone just dropping large blunt objects on each other from from a now easily accessible Earth orbit, and this isn't the first time technological screwups in a series have made me ask this question.

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but the REAL problem lies with the fact that the entire nature of the ending depends on an absurd series of fortunate events that are entirely a result of blind luck

<snip>

even lesser ones bring about a downer ending
I never even thought of that before. Also I'll pose another question: What if Schneizel's geassing doesn't work as planned? He was geassed to follow Zero (IIRC), he knows Zero is Lelouch, he knows Lelouch pretty well, he knows Suzaku, Suzaku probably isn't a very good actor, Geass does funny things some times, and Schneizel probably is a fairly good actor by most standards... Amusingly this would continue the tradition of Geass screwing him over.



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Given that his chief opponent was an empire on par with Nazi Germany, how can you say that?
Eh? S1 Britannia was only slightly worse than the US in Iraq (Clovis and Cornelia's Ghetto purges were almost carbon copies of a few IRL operations, at least going in) and it definitely did nothing as bad as the Russian Federation either in Chechnya or in it's infamous handling of hostage situations.

Quote:
The whole thing with Lelouch being secretly evil comes down to Alternate Character Interpretations. Maybe Lelouch is just a prick, or maybe his obsession with seeming so evil is a result of him deluding himelf rather than others in regards to his nature. Perhaps Lelouch wants to believe he is evil because otherwise, the things he does would have a measure of good in them. Perhaps for all his brilliance, Lelouch doesn't want to accept that a person like Zero is the only way the world can become a better place, so Zero "has" to be a Villain With Good Publicity. It's similar to how Suzaku believed he was seeking death in order to atone for his mistakes, when in reality it was simple escapism.

For all his declarations of evil, sinister smirks, and references to battles as 'games', Lelouch was still disgusted by what happened in Shinjuku, Saitama, Kawaguchi, Shirley's father, and Euphemia, while someone like Light wouldn't care, or be laughing hysterically.

His pastime was taking over matches for people who held debts to noblemen, he tried to help the truck drivers even after they almost ran him and Rivalz over, he saved an old couple from a hussler and didn't even brag about it, he didn't keep Euphemia as a hostage or Geass her to perform any acts of sabotage, his is voice carried clear concern when he realized who Kallen's mother was, he ordered a retreat in Narita precisely because the battle had become "a war of attrition", he was shocked by C.C.'s asking if he planned to kill Shirley if she was the one who uncovered who he was, and still tried to save her even after everything, and regretted the trauma he caused her, he refused to Geass or assassinate Suzaku and even stopped Kallen from trying, he ordered Suzaku to "Live" rather than just save him on Shikine, he comments at the Giant Pizza festival in the first season where he says in a relieved tone "No one will die here if I make a mistake", decides to join the SAZ even if it will hurt his own plans, and tells Rolo not to kill Suzaku.

A villain shrugs of collateral damage. A villain does not hunch over in a bathtub forcibly remembering the worst moments of his life to keep his resolve up, just because his not-girlfriend's father ignored a government ordered evacuation of a combat zone.

Lelouch is no saint, but he isn't nearly the villain some think he is...until the last arc.
Nothing you said there actually stops making him a villain, it just makes him a well written villain. Poorly written, two dimensional, cliched villains shrug off collateral damage and do things like Lelouch at the end of R2. Well written villains actually act like human beings as opposed to robots of blind rage.

Just because "the villain" has a crippled child sister and expresses feelings of remorse over the innocent bystander doesn't mean they're suddenly good because at the end of the day after he's put his crippled sister to bed and after he's spent his time hunched over in a tub thinking hard about what the hell he's doing, he still puts on that mask and still leads his private revolutionary army. In the case of case of Code Geass, this villain is the main character so we are blessed with a normally out of the ordinary amount of development on him as opposed to the usual version of following "the hero" and only seeing the villain when the hero sees him.

How did Suzaku see Zero? How did the average Britannian see Zero after Narita?

Now as far as the story is concerned he's the hero, because he's the main character and that's how stories work, but in the sense of the "universe" he is leading a violent uprising that ultimately isn't popularly supported against a government that isn't leading people into gas chambers and ovens, appears to have a damn healthy GDP, and seems to have majority popular support.
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Old 2010-01-06, 05:12   Link #6586
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken View Post
To me, even in the last arc Lelouch was still a hero, a hero with a bad publicity (that he chose himself). If he didn't go with the Zero Requiem, then Schneizel would carry out his plan, which will have more dire consequences for the world as he plan nuking large cities around the world. It was either the Zero Requiem that has little loss of life or Damocles Requiem that will have millions die to achieve world peace.
actually, zero-requiem was NOT about stopping shnizel
stopping shnizel did not require lelouch to become and evil dictator and turn the world against him
if anything, that makes it HARDER to deal with shnizel, because he has to fight the rest of the world at the same time
lelouch attacked the UFN because HIS MASTER PLAN requires that he become an evil tyrant

zero-requiem is lelouch's VERSION of the Ragnarok connection or the "damocles requiem" as you put it
its a master plan ment to fundamentally change the world to better suite the will of the one carrying it out, at whatever cost it takes
its lelouch adapting the SAME MENTALITY that he blamed the emperor and shnizel of having
the "utopia justfies the means" mentality that says "i know whats best for the entire world, and so it doesn't matter how much blood i spill in order to fulfill my vision"

which means, that even if shnizel WASN'T planning anything of the sort, Lelouch would STILL have gone along with his OWN plan
because thats what he WANTS to do.
and its even WORSE when you realize that if lelouch needed to kill millions to achieve the plan, then thats what he'd do
because thats what it actually MEANS to think that "utopia justifies the means"
you'd do ANYTHING it takes.
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Old 2010-01-06, 05:35   Link #6587
Zantetsuken
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I know that ZQ was not about stopping Schneizel. But if ZQ is to succeed the DQ must be stopped. It's either one of those plan that will be carried out. And considering what ZQ achieved, Lulu is a "hero" to those who know what his plan trully means.

And about the "utopia justifies the means", Lulu did his plans with the least amount of blood spilled. And considering what the future will lead to without ZQ, it's a good thing that it happened.
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Old 2010-01-06, 05:40   Link #6588
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken View Post
I know that ZQ was not about stopping Schneizel. But if ZQ is to succeed the DQ must be stopped. It's either one of those plan that will be carried out. And considering what ZQ achieved, Lulu is a "hero" to those who know what his plan trully means..
why not stop shnizel WITHOUT carrying out some kind of crazy plan of his own that involves mass murder ?
why not simply stop shnizel, and be DONE with that ?
he didn't need to do ZQ in order to stop DQ, he just needed to stop DQ by taking snhizel out

Quote:
And about the "utopia justifies the means", Lulu did his plans with the least amount of blood spilled. And considering what the future will lead to without ZQ, it's a good thing that it happened.
Lelouch set out to intentionally spill RIVERS OF BLOOD (his words)
so much so that people would just FORGET all the shit that happened before, because what happened DURING lelouch's reign was just so much more horrible
lelouch did NOT try to limit the blood shed, quite the other way around in fact, since lelouch WANTED to be as big a monster as possible
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Old 2010-01-06, 05:45   Link #6589
Zantetsuken
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Than there will be no "impact point" for the world the revolutionize itself. Revolution is easier if there was something to start off from.


Then where is that river of blood?
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Old 2010-01-06, 05:53   Link #6590
bladeofdarkness
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Than there will be no "impact point" for the world the revolutionize itself. Revolution is easier if there was something to start off from.
no need to revolutionize anything
lelouch rules one side of the world, and the otherside is ruled by the UFN (which he created in the first place
stop shnizel, and sign a peace treaty with the UFN
BANG
world peace

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Then where is that river of blood?
what do you mean where ?
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Old 2010-01-06, 05:59   Link #6591
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world peace that still have tension? At best the world peace will be like the cold war.

What atrocities did Lulu really did? To me his "atrocities" came out really tame. Except if there are side materials that said he massacred or something then he was just bullshitting.
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:04   Link #6592
bladeofdarkness
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world peace that still have tension? At best the world peace will be like the cold war.
cold war happens when both sides want to be the only side left, but cant because the other side is also powerful
lelouch can do alot to defuse tensions if he wants, since he's already loved by the people of the UFN in ep 22

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What atrocities did Lulu really did? To me his "atrocities" came out really tame. Except if there are side materials that said he massacred or something then he was just bullshitting.
you dont need side materials to confirm that one
people on the streets note that anyone who speaks the wrong way about him has their entire family killed.

how do you think he managed to become the most hated person in history in just two months ?
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:05   Link #6593
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What atrocities did Lulu really did? To me his "atrocities" came out really tame. Except if there are side materials that said he massacred or something then he was just bullshitting.
These supposed atrocities were offscreen. True, we didn't see it, but they must have been pretty fucking bad if they made Charles look like a pussycat (though it's been speculated that some of his horrible crimes may have just been rumored exaggeration by the populace).
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:07   Link #6594
bladeofdarkness
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These supposed atrocities were offscreen. True, we didn't see it, but they must have been pretty fucking bad if they made Charles look like a pussycat (though it's been speculated that some of his horrible crimes may have just been rumored exaggeration by the populace).
even the things that we DO know he did are pretty horrible (brainwashing thousends of people to be his slaves, and using them like disposable pawns left and right, or killing anyone in britannia who objects to his rule)
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:22   Link #6595
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Eh, still pretty tame compared to nuking several city clean of the map
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:27   Link #6596
bladeofdarkness
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Eh, still pretty tame compared to nuking several city clean of the map
except that we dont know just how many people lelouch killed in reality, accept that it was enough to make him viewed by the people of the world, as worse then hitler
think about it

Charles started a world war that killed countless millions over the course of a decade
Euphie massacred thousends of people on live TV
Suzaku killed over 35 million people in ep 18
Shnizel wiped out the entire capital city of britannia (an area of about 30 miles in diameter)
and lelouch is MORE HATED THEN ALL OF THEM COMBINED !!!

just try to imagine how many people he would have had to slaughter to get that kind of hate placed on him (enough to completely erase the memory of all that came before it)
is it unreasonable to speculate that his death toll would have had to reach the 9th digit ?
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:32   Link #6597
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I think he's really damn hated because he strike when the world was about to achieve peace. After all the shit that had been done on the world, there was a glimmer of peace, but then Lulu took it away. If you see it that way, of course the world would hate his guts.
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:35   Link #6598
bladeofdarkness
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enough to forget EVERYTHING that came before it ?
not nearly
in order to make people just completely forget all the horrible things that happened before, lelouch would have to do even WORSE.
and given what happened before... you're going to need a bigger boat

world war I had 37 million casualties in total on both sides
suzaku almost matched that number in one night
lelouch would have to get a MUCH higher death toll in order to make people forget about THAT
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:49   Link #6599
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That's where you're wrong. You think to be worse, he would need to kill a lot of people. There are many other way. Putting people in concentration camp, taking people's freedom, making living condition worse. Assuming the atrocities before was just "killing" people, doing those things I said MIGHT be considered more heinous by the world. People have a tendency to think whatever happened to them now is the worst things that have happened. So because they haven't been subjected to these kinds of things, people MIGHT think he's worse then anyone else
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Old 2010-01-06, 06:57   Link #6600
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he got EVERYONE to hate him more then anything else
that means people who lost loved ones to the actions of OTHER people, would still hate him more
just how horrible did he have to be to get that result
he'd have to turn the entire world into a giant concentration.
thats a horrible thing to do for ANY reason, much less when you remember that the entire thing is completely unnecessery

he rules half the world, the other half is the UFN
use charles as a blame figure, and just make peace
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