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Old 2010-03-15, 15:09   Link #6701
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Why do Euphie and Shirley deserve to die?
Euphie stole Lelouch's favourite cookies once.
Shirley ate his cake by accident, but ignorance is no excuse.

...Lelouch has pretty hair.
See, I totally stayed on topic! xD
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:16   Link #6702
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If he had remained a prince he would have no reason to go on a rampage and start killing his siblings. You have to realize that what drove him to that was his world being shattered and him and Nunnaly being exiled to Japan.

Let's assume for a second that Marianne simply just died in a Knightmare accident, and Nunnaly wasn't crippled. Lelouch would simply grow up in Aries villa, and either Schneizel or the emperor would give him a post somewhere in the empire so that he could prove himself.
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:21   Link #6703
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If he had remained a prince he would have no reason to go on a rampage and start killing his siblings. You have to realize that what drove him to that was his world being shattered and him and Nunnaly being exiled to Japan.

Let's assume for a second that Marianne simply just died in a Knightmare accident, and Nunnaly wasn't crippled. Lelouch would simply grow up in Aries villa, and either Schneizel or the emperor would give him a post somewhere in the empire so that he could prove himself.
Hum, I thought we were talking about "what if Marianne had been murdered, but, for some reason, Lelouch and Nunnally hadn't been exiled/were discovered by Britannia before they could meet up with the Ashfords".

Changing the circumstances too drastically would alter his whole character, after all - he'd probably have ended up more similar to S1!Suzaku than anything.
Not to mention having Marianne the Flash die in a Knightmare accident of all things would be... not very epic. xD
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:59   Link #6704
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
In a manner of speaking. It's the punishment he chose.
Then it is more accurate to say he had a punishment fetish, not a deathwish as death was what he deemed as the most approriate punishment.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
He also said that there were other ways of achieving world peace that wouldn't involve his death, but he insisted on ZR. That he would want to die is consistent with his prior scheme, when he attempted to forever trap himself with Charles inside the Sword of Akasha, one episode after the Black Knights betrayed him. When he enacted the Zero Requiem, he felt he had nothing more to live for.
The two are not automatically related, as again, it was simply the means he chose for punishment. He went so far as to outright declare to Charles that they would "suffer" together rather than just seal Charles and kill himself, though he would assumably starve in the World of C. He also still wanted answers about Marianne.

As well, once Nunally was revealled to be alive, he could have elected to fake his death, surrender to Schneizel, or otherwise cop out on the plan, but he didn't. The guidebook says he wanted a life with Nunally more than anything else, so even having a "deathwish" would be trumped by a desire to be with Nunally. He turns away for other reasons.
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Old 2010-03-15, 16:13   Link #6705
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Then it is more accurate to say he had a punishment fetish, not a deathwish as death was what he deemed as the most approriate punishment.
Hum.
He wanted to be with Nunally more than anything else. He wanted to be punished even more. The punishment he deemed most appropriate was death.

Actually, I think it's hard to draw a clear line here. The guidebook can say whatever it wants; to me, it just doesn't make sense that someone would happily let himself be killed/punished when there's something he wants much more than that.
I agree Lelouch didn't simply want to take the easy way out, and I don't even think he "had lost it", but no one can tell me he wanted a life with Nunnally more than anything else, as "anything else" would include punishment.
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Old 2010-03-15, 16:18   Link #6706
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Surrendering to Schneizel would be a very bad idea. Although he probably could have saved Pendragon... Eitherway the UFN would've been nuked into oblivion.
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Old 2010-03-15, 17:52   Link #6707
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Then it is more accurate to say he had a punishment fetish, not a deathwish as death was what he deemed as the most approriate punishment.



The two are not automatically related, as again, it was simply the means he chose for punishment. He went so far as to outright declare to Charles that they would "suffer" together rather than just seal Charles and kill himself, though he would assumably starve in the World of C. He also still wanted answers about Marianne.

As well, once Nunally was revealled to be alive, he could have elected to fake his death, surrender to Schneizel, or otherwise cop out on the plan, but he didn't. The guidebook says he wanted a life with Nunally more than anything else, so even having a "deathwish" would be trumped by a desire to be with Nunally. He turns away for other reasons.
He was far too deep into the plan to bail out at that point. Schneizel would have called him on it in one way or another had he suddenly decided to break the proverbial masquerade.

Nunnally's supposed death was one of the chief reasons he decided to go with the Zero Requiem. Not to mention that if all he wanted was punishment, I can think of at least a few other characters he could have taken down with him who lived on instead. He had basically lost all hope.
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Old 2010-03-16, 07:35   Link #6708
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Post Why Zero Requiem would work?

Well, in the world of Code Geass, several laws are set. These laws all indicate that Zero Requiem did work, and is an effective system.

1. Charles zi Britannia thinks for the past (A Radical), Schneizel el Britannia thinks for the present, and Lelouch vi Britannia thinks for the future (A Revolutionary, but also someone who wants to keep a closed loop, or self sufficient system). This is what the shows writer's implied. Also note that revolutions come with bloodshed, more or less.

2. Zero is a symbol of justice, and came with brilliance only (Lelouch Era), while relying on his organization for strength. Thus he could not be as courageous, and brave to the public, since he had to use a Knighmare Frame to fight in some cases, and take a back seat and do the planning in most cases, while his troops had to fight. However, after Zero Requiem, the new Zero (Suzaku) has the physical power to really go and fight for himself in broad daylight, so that the ordinary citizen can hail him as a Godly hero, which is partially true due to his extraordinary stamina, skill, and plus the, "live geass". Therefore he alone has the tactics to defend himself, and go one on one, with anybody while being Zero. Lelouch would have been killed in a similar situation.

3. Lelouch was one, and only. Therefore, he had to be Zero, and then takeover as emperor. Both of them contradicts slightly, as he was fighting against the Racist, aggressive, Britannia. Since he is the son of the family, it is confusing to have him fight against the same royalty he was born in. This would cause issues as people will start making up conspiracy theories. This is only my assumption. The fact still remains that as Zero, he was not pure. He still killed people, and ruined his reputation slightly. He could have done several things as emperor;

a.) Reveal his identity as Zero, and have some form of rebels try to go against him for his murders done as Zero.

b.) Keep his identity of Zero as a secret, and be a good emperor until he dies. After his death, someone else might take over, and change the system. The Black Knights would then have to formulate something else, which will possibly have Suzaku, or Kallen as Zero, who will bring back justice.

4. Zero (Suzaku) may be temporary due to his lack of political strategy, but we don't know that. We barely see Suzaku's intellectual ability, and his strategical ability. We don't know if he can even come close to the great Lelouch, when it comes to strategic planning. However, for arguments sake, lets assume he is only physical, and is extremely athletic, strong, agile, and partially immortal. I think these qualities are enough to make him a superhero of some sorts. He does not even have to use his brains. It is like a check and balance system. I have made this point before, but Zero is not only a person, but rather a group of people working together.

a.) Suzaku is the symbol of Zero, with the power, strength, agility, and a geass to survive many situations, when he should have died. He is Zero only, and not Suzaku. His life is more easier as Zero only, as Lelouch had to sleep only three to four hours, and play both roles of Zero, and student Lelouch.

b.) Kallen in the vice president of Zero. If Zero is killed in a massive explosion, or something tremendous which he could not escape, then Kallen will takeover easily.

c.) Schneizel is the brains of the system. He is just as brilliant as Lelouch, but only used to think about the present. With his geass limitation, he won't disobey anyone. He will still use his brains, but only as Zero commands him to do.

d.) Nunally is the empress. She will be the good hearted ruler. With her purity, she will spread a form of love, which Lelouch could never grasp due to his tragic past. She will make a fairy tale like system, where everybody will be helped. There would be no distinction from the rich, and poor. She will envision the future, while the other members will try to make it work, and the citizens will implement it.

e.) The Black Knights will be the patriotic defense group, alongside the army. I am assuming, that they will all hold fancy positions in the government, or something. I could definitely see Kaname Ohgi, and Villetta Nu being the head of the army, while I can see Sayoko Shinozaki (the maid of Lamperouge siblings), as the personal bodyguard of the empress.

5. Lelouch's death was not wasted. He died separating good from evil. He let Zero be good, by letting himself die. He set a standard out there to the masses, that justice is possible. He became the historic dictator, to show all the future dictators the threat they are dealing with. Sure, he could have signed a peace treaty, but it is clearly shown that Lelouch thought for the future. Unlike Schneizel, Lelouch wanted a system which worked, and survived in the future. He knew that he had killed already, so he made himself wholly evil, so that there won't be a debate on his goodness. He wanted to be the Adolf Hitler of the world, instead of Ernesto (Che) Guevera with both good and bad sides. This way, everyone will be inclined to look up to Zero, and the children of the future will praise Zero, while criticizing Lelouch, and hating him. Lelouch may have caused deaths, but these deaths are normal in a revolution. He ensured that the future of billions of people will live peacefully, for the price of several thousands (?????) of people who died. Every war has its casualties, but after Zero Requiem, the citizens will live equally, and have a fair life, without being treated like scum.

6. The shows writer's indicated in the epilogue, that Zero Requiem worked, and people were happy. This only goes on to show that equality was achieved, and everyone had equal rights after Zero Requiem. Even if a future dictator keeps screwing around, with all else failing, these citizens will all have the same rights to against the dictator, because they will all look at each other as equals. The rich and poor, will join hands, to take down the system, if they don't agree with it.

So what do you think? They would all work together, and make it happen. Even if one of them dies, there will be others who can replace that person. In the end, everyone has each others back. I like this approach, and Lelouch did not die for no reason.
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Last edited by HollowScar; 2010-03-16 at 08:11. Reason: Lengthy, but detailed post. Well worth the read.
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Old 2010-03-16, 12:40   Link #6709
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Except that Lelouch could have pointed to Charles as an example of tyranny, and for the most part, succeeded. Not to mention that Lelouch himself had renounced the old Britannian way years ago. He was no more a token member of the Britannian family than Suzaku could be considered a Japanese patriot after what the latter had been responsible for. And he may have been responsible for lives taken as Zero, but then there were other people who were just as much if perhaps not more so, and in the name of tyranny to boot, who were still able to enjoy the new world.

And Ohgi and Villetta as government heads? I hope not.
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Old 2010-03-16, 13:08   Link #6710
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Zero Requiem united the people in a way Lelouch alone couldn't have. After Euphemia, why should the Japanese trust a Britannian Emperor who just apppeared out of nowhere?
If he had revealed he was really Zero, other parties would have been unhappy, and then there were the Black Knights, who, while I think their betrayal was just that - a betrayal -, knew of some of the less noble deeds Lelouch committed. They, too, would not have trusted him easily.

Now, I agree Lelouch could have pulled it off regardless if that's what the creators had wanted him to do, and I will also concede that Zero Requiem would not have worked in real life. However, in the anime, it went just fine - Lelouch was portrayed as a "modern hero", not a suicidal lunatic.
Also, Zero Requiem fits the concept of the show, the things it was supposed to convey, very well, and HollowScar made some very nice points.
I'm not getting into another pointless discussion that will drag on for pages and pages again, but there are enough people who enjoyed the ending greatly, and when it comes to Lelouch, I believe it is hard to argue that the staff thought of him as a nutcase there, as this is not what Okouchi said, nor was it portrayed that way in the show. Actually, I think it's more likely that Lelouch is breeding sheep with C.C. somewhere - at least you could bend that in a way that doesn't contradict anything the show emphasised. Yes, Lelouch's death included, and no, I'm not saying he's alive.
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Old 2010-03-16, 13:13   Link #6711
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Originally Posted by HollowScar View Post

b.) Kallen in the vice president of Zero. If Zero is killed in a massive explosion, or something tremendous which he could not escape, then Kallen will takeover easily.
while there is a LOT about your post i don't really agree with, this one takes the cake
even putting aside the issue of why kallen would even agree to such a thing (she has a life of her own you know)
isn't anyone likely to notice that zero suddenly got about a head shorter and has grown some pretty impressive boobs ?
its likely to draw some comment
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Old 2010-03-16, 13:15   Link #6712
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while there is a LOT about your post i don't really agree with, this one takes the cake
even putting aside the issue of why kallen would even agree to such a thing (she has a life of her own you know)
isn't anyone likely to notice that zero suddenly got about a head shorter and has grown some pretty impressive boobs ?
i'd think its likely to draw some comment don't you think
Well, the world of Code Geass is a very medically advanced one... xD
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Old 2010-03-16, 13:16   Link #6713
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if its THAT advanced, then nina really has no excuse
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Old 2010-03-16, 13:19   Link #6714
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if its THAT advanced, then nina really has no excuse
Actually, I think Nina looks pretty nice when she's not being a raving psycho, but, hum, wrong thread, I suppose.

Uh... Lelouch could give her some tips for her hair? xD
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Old 2010-03-16, 15:02   Link #6715
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Zero Requiem united the people in a way Lelouch alone couldn't have. After Euphemia, why should the Japanese trust a Britannian Emperor who just apppeared out of nowhere?
If he had revealed he was really Zero, other parties would have been unhappy, and then there were the Black Knights, who, while I think their betrayal was just that - a betrayal -, knew of some of the less noble deeds Lelouch committed. They, too, would not have trusted him easily.

Now, I agree Lelouch could have pulled it off regardless if that's what the creators had wanted him to do, and I will also concede that Zero Requiem would not have worked in real life. However, in the anime, it went just fine - Lelouch was portrayed as a "modern hero", not a suicidal lunatic.
Also, Zero Requiem fits the concept of the show, the things it was supposed to convey, very well, and HollowScar made some very nice points.
I'm not getting into another pointless discussion that will drag on for pages and pages again, but there are enough people who enjoyed the ending greatly, and when it comes to Lelouch, I believe it is hard to argue that the staff thought of him as a nutcase there, as this is not what Okouchi said, nor was it portrayed that way in the show. Actually, I think it's more likely that Lelouch is breeding sheep with C.C. somewhere - at least you could bend that in a way that doesn't contradict anything the show emphasised. Yes, Lelouch's death included, and no, I'm not saying he's alive.
Why was it then that the first thing Lelouch attempted to do once he was all alone in R2 20 was seal himself with Charles? He may not have been merely suicidal, but it still was part of what had become of him.

Besides, the Black Knights hadn't known everything that had happened there. Not to mention that if they wouldn't have trusted him just because of the Euphie incident, then what about Nunnally during the bulk of R2?

Last edited by azul120; 2010-03-16 at 15:29.
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Old 2010-03-16, 17:25   Link #6716
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Why was it then that the first thing Lelouch attempted to do once he was all alone in R2 20 was seal himself with Charles? He may not have been merely suicidal, but it still was part of what had become of him.
You are assuming that nothing about Lelouch's state of mind changed between the time he decided to throw away his life to stop his father and the moment Zero Requiem was born.
When he tried to seal himself with Charles, Lelouch had nothing left. Everything and everyone had either betrayed him or was no longer within his reach, and he himself commented on the extent of his despair. So he decided to bring everything to an end at least, and, while he was at it, finally get an answer from his father.
And he did get his answer. This, I believe, is part of what allowed Lelouch to let go of the past and focus on the future. He also regained his best friend, and let's not forget that when Lelouch gets emotional, he does so suddenly and often in a pretty drastic way, but not for long. He had some time to think things through before the execution of his plans.

I actually think Lelouch was more sane during Zero Requiem than he'd been for a long time. Not that he'd been a lunatic, but I wouldn't have called him psychologically stable, and in a way very different from Suzaku, his world was a very small one for most of the show. He analyzed those around him, but when it came to personal matters, he didn't understand some of the most essential things about them.

Quote:
Besides, the Black Knights hadn't known everything that had happened there. Not to mention that if they wouldn't have trusted him just because of the Euphie incident, then what about Nunnally during the bulk of R2?
Actually, if I remember correctly, Nunnally was met with distrust when she became governor, and people in fact compared her to Euphie. Later, she'd already given people a reason to think she wasn't a monster, and after she'd been sentenced to execution by Lelouch, she only needed to be herself to gain people's trust. Lelouch was too much a proud (and not overly social) commander to have been able to get the same results. It would have taken him much longer to even partly achieve what Nunnally could with the help of Zero Requiem.
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Old 2010-03-16, 18:55   Link #6717
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You are assuming that nothing about Lelouch's state of mind changed between the time he decided to throw away his life to stop his father and the moment Zero Requiem was born.
When he tried to seal himself with Charles, Lelouch had nothing left. Everything and everyone had either betrayed him or was no longer within his reach, and he himself commented on the extent of his despair. So he decided to bring everything to an end at least, and, while he was at it, finally get an answer from his father.
And he did get his answer. This, I believe, is part of what allowed Lelouch to let go of the past and focus on the future. He also regained his best friend, and let's not forget that when Lelouch gets emotional, he does so suddenly and often in a pretty drastic way, but not for long. He had some time to think things through before the execution of his plans.

I actually think Lelouch was more sane during Zero Requiem than he'd been for a long time. Not that he'd been a lunatic, but I wouldn't have called him psychologically stable, and in a way very different from Suzaku, his world was a very small one for most of the show. He analyzed those around him, but when it came to personal matters, he didn't understand some of the most essential things about them.
Remember the Mutuality short stories? He was still in that post-Despair Event Horizon state, more or less. ("Nunnally's gone."/etc.) The same went for Suzaku. Misery loves company, as they say. That Lelouch now had more of a motive and a focus didn't change things all that much on his end. And that Nunnally turned out to be alive turned it into one big Shaggy Dog stunt.

Quote:
Actually, if I remember correctly, Nunnally was met with distrust when she became governor, and people in fact compared her to Euphie. Later, she'd already given people a reason to think she wasn't a monster, and after she'd been sentenced to execution by Lelouch, she only needed to be herself to gain people's trust. Lelouch was too much a proud (and not overly social) commander to have been able to get the same results. It would have taken him much longer to even partly achieve what Nunnally could with the help of Zero Requiem.
You're mostly thinking of the second SAZ, which Lelouch defused with the million Zero stunt. And Lelouch ultimately could have stayed behind the scenes, similar to Schneizel.
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Old 2010-03-16, 19:08   Link #6718
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Remember the Mutuality short stories? He was still in that post-Despair Event Horizon state, more or less. ("Nunnally's gone."/etc.) The same went for Suzaku. Misery loves company, as they say. That Lelouch now had more of a motive and a focus didn't change things all that much on his end. And that Nunnally turned out to be alive turned it into one big Shaggy Dog stunt.
Yet Lelouch and Suzaku joked with each other in one of these stories like in old times, even bringing up Nunnally while doing so.
Also, the fact remains that Okouchi called Lelouch a "modern hero" who changed the world "without making a big deal out of it" - not someone who gave in to despair and committed the most elaborate assisted suicide in history.

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You're mostly thinking of the second SAZ, which Lelouch defused with the million Zero stunt.
Yes, and this was only possible because of Suzaku and Nunnally. Without them, that stunt would have cost a whole bunch of people their lives.

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And Lelouch ultimately could have stayed behind the scenes, similar to Schneizel.
Vegetable!Schneizel, you mean?
What would the point of that be? Zero Requiem could not have taken place, the situation would have been a lot more unstable, and anyway, how was Lelouch supposed to "stay behind the scenes" under the given circumstances?
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Old 2010-03-16, 19:10   Link #6719
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Found the translation from the guidebook that I was thinking of (and apparently butchering).

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From Suzaku's character profile page:
"For those two who bear the heavy sin known as killing their fathers, they share the belief that they can forgive each other by imposing the greatest punishments on themselves. Death for Lelouch who wishes for a tomorrow with his sister, life for Suzaku who wishes to atone for his sins through death. Suzaku, who accepts the weight of Zero's mask, gives his gratitude to Lelouch. For the fact that he can atone for his sins. For the results of fulfilling his own wish."
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Old 2010-03-16, 19:21   Link #6720
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Yet Lelouch and Suzaku joked with each other in one of these stories like in old times, even bringing up Nunnally while doing so.
Also, the fact remains that Okouchi called Lelouch a "modern hero" who changed the world "without making a big deal out of it" - not someone who gave in to despair and committed the most elaborate assisted suicide in history.
"Without making a big deal out of it" meant that he kept a lot to himself. A little too much.

And just because they joked about old times doesn't mean they weren't still morbid by default. Again, misery loves company.

Quote:
Yes, and this was only possible because of Suzaku and Nunnally. Without them, that stunt would have cost a whole bunch of people their lives.
And Lelouch worked the situation with those two in mind, specifically so it would play out as it did. Besides, you sort of contradicted yourself just now, having earlier mentioned that people wouldn't trust Nunnally. Lelouch helped Nunnally keep from bloodying her hands.

Quote:
Vegetable!Schneizel, you mean?
What would the point of that be? Zero Requiem could not have taken place, the situation would have been a lot more unstable, and anyway, how was Lelouch supposed to "stay behind the scenes" under the given circumstances?
Hey, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if ZR wouldn't have to take place. What I mean is that Lelouch could stay on as an advisory figure.

@Betteroffer: I always thought they pulled that quote out of their asses, what with the whole "punishment for killing their fathers" thing. Besides, Nunnally was presumed dead when Lelouch started ZR, and said presumed death was one of the reasons he resorted to it.
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