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Old 2010-03-16, 20:07   Link #6721
Revolutionist
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Zero Requiem and this new better world that resulted from it, are nothing but lies, and sooner or later the truth comes to light.

This utopia would never last. Once people got over the shock of Lelouch taking over they'd go back to descrimination, war, terrorism, etc.

That is human nature, and the only way to change that is the Ragnarok Connection.
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Old 2010-03-16, 20:56   Link #6722
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Ragnarok is a forced instrumentality, in which individuality is killed completely, making a existence of nothing but melded minds. Killing God would do this, and so - Lelouch set out to stop him, his supposed 'final act'.


This is where you say "Results brought by contemptable means aren't worth anything", Revolutionist. I cannot agree with 'resistance', but naive fancies are even worse, especially when they condemn Free Will.

Free Will is a basic human right and existing privilege, depriving someone of that makes you less human. But that is also where that connects to Lelouch in my point, he was alot less 'human' in the end, just a martyr who wanted to make a utopia - Regardless of it being brief or not -- so those that were stilling living didn't have to be weighed down by the victims of both Lelouch and Zero.

Thats all. Take it as you wish.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:03   Link #6723
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Zero Requiem and this new better world that resulted from it, are nothing but lies, and sooner or later the truth comes to light.

This utopia would never last. Once people got over the shock of Lelouch taking over they'd go back to descrimination, war, terrorism, etc.

That is human nature, and the only way to change that is the Ragnarok Connection.
Well in truth it wouldn't have even worked at the start, as has been discussed ad nauseum. The thing is, as it is a fictional world, the creators can say whatever the heck they want to about it and we have to accept that it is true for that world.

Lelouch mindraped hundreds, possibly thousands into being brain puppets and cannon fodder. They tell us that his death is an awesomely-beautiful-tragedy and it can only be the truth.

Schneizel planned to nuke everyone into submission. Apparently in a peaceful (i.e. perfect) world he would have been the perfect king. The perfect CG king saw fit to nuke the world and it can only be the truth.

@azul120: I definately agree on the "fathers" thing, but I suppose it is partially a case of Values Dissonance between the different cultures. That said, ass-pullery or not they still stated that ZR was about punishment, thus it can only be true as they are the creators. Lelouch may have had a deathwish for a while after the BK betrayal, but he got over it and that is why he chose death: because he didn't want it.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:16   Link #6724
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He still had the deathwish. He was just a little less mitigated by said deathwish. There are other ways he could achieve world peace with arguably better results that didn't end in his death or the bloodshed involved in the Zero Requiem. To think that he would choose ZR for the sake of atonement via Suicide By Cop in light of this is extremely perverse and self-contradicting.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:35   Link #6725
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It is still canon. He announced it to Charles rather passionately "Even so...I desire tomorrow!" that if anything was the point where Lelouch got over his deathwish if he hadn't already, and it was a point when he still believed Nunally was dead.

Death was the "greatest punishment" for Lelouch, so that was what he imposed upon himself. Until you can point to a piece of material that says "Lelouch surrendered to his deisre for oblivion" or something similar then it is your opinion against canon fact.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:47   Link #6726
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He desired tomorrow not for himself, but for the world. He may have given up on life, but he didn't wish what Charles had in mind on anyone.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:58   Link #6727
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I know what Ragnarok was, and I was merely speculating upon the fact that human nature is not something you can easily change. In fact Lelouch's plan would not change anything, and that's where I strongly disagree that we should just blindly accept what the writers intended to show. It is silly, and I'm sorry but part of what makes a good story is believability. After all, the demographic for CG was pretty old, I'm guessing 15+? So we're not talking about children's storytelling here...
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Old 2010-03-16, 22:13   Link #6728
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
I know what Ragnarok was, and I was merely speculating upon the fact that human nature is not something you can easily change. In fact Lelouch's plan would not change anything, and that's where I strongly disagree that we should just blindly accept what the writers intended to show. It is silly, and I'm sorry but part of what makes a good story is believability. After all, the demographic for CG was pretty old, I'm guessing 15+? So we're not talking about children's storytelling here...
Oh yeah, I'm on board with that. That's why I don't like the ending either. It's one thing to not like an ending in that a character you like died, it's another for the writers to Derail him, tell you they didn't, and insist that you have to like him for doing things that are considered horrible by pretty much any culture.
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Old 2010-03-17, 03:49   Link #6729
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
"Without making a big deal out of it" meant that he kept a lot to himself. A little too much.
True, but Okouchi apparently thought that was awesome. And actually, I'm inclined to agree, to an extent.

Quote:
And just because they joked about old times doesn't mean they weren't still morbid by default. Again, misery loves company.
They didn't seem miserable.

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And Lelouch worked the situation with those two in mind, specifically so it would play out as it did.
Partly, sure.
But while he may have unconsciously desired to just be over and done with everything, it was not his main motivation - not by far. Otherwise, it would go against the Word of God, and, well, I might as well claim he's out there somewhere breeding sheep. It's possible, but not very likely unless Sunrise decides to have some fun.

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Besides, you sort of contradicted yourself just now, having earlier mentioned that people wouldn't trust Nunnally. Lelouch helped Nunnally keep from bloodying her hands.
Hu? Where did I say that?
I used the example of her being compared to Euphie to explain why people wouldn't trust Lelouch as Emperor, and also mentioned Zero Requiem made things a lot easier for her. Not that they would never, ever have trusted her otherwise. It would just have taken a lot more time.

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Hey, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if ZR wouldn't have to take place. What I mean is that Lelouch could stay on as an advisory figure.
Lelouch wanted to give everyone a tomorrow by sacrificing his own - including Suzaku, who needed to be "punished" to be able to live with himself, and those who already hated him. Zero Requiem, while it was not the only solution, had its purpose.
Lelouch staying alive wouldn't necessarily have changed anything for the better. In fact, he'd have had a lot more trouble pulling his "tomorrow" off if not by making people hate him.

Quote:
@Betteroffer: I always thought they pulled that quote out of their asses, what with the whole "punishment for killing their fathers" thing.
Liked that line, think it was to be expected.
Except that I don't believe the "killing their fathers" thin is meant as "this is what they needed to be punished for". It's just a "sin" they shared, and that influenced them greatly.

Quote:
Besides, Nunnally was presumed dead when Lelouch started ZR, and said presumed death was one of the reasons he resorted to it.
It's true that with Nunnally around, Lelouch would probably not have been strong enough at this point to just let go of the one bit of happiness he had always wished for.
That doesn't mean he was suicidal, though.
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Old 2010-03-17, 04:06   Link #6730
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
True, but Okouchi apparently thought that was awesome. And actually, I'm inclined to agree, to an extent.



They didn't seem miserable.
For that one moment, no. Other than that, they weren't necessarily chipper either.

Quote:
Partly, sure.
But while he may have unconsciously desired to just be over and done with everything, it was not his main motivation - not by far. Otherwise, it would go against the Word of God, and, well, I might as well claim he's out there somewhere breeding sheep. It's possible, but not very likely unless Sunrise decides to have some fun.
Which is true, and also why I contend that Zero Requiem is both a means to a Death Wish and plan for peace.

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Hu? Where did I say that?
I used the example of her being compared to Euphie to explain why people wouldn't trust Lelouch as Emperor, and also mentioned Zero Requiem made things a lot easier for her. Not that they would never, ever have trusted her otherwise. It would just have taken a lot more time.
Weren't you referring to Nunnally during the SAZ though? Besides, as blade would be too happy to point out, they could just scapegoat Charles and Schneizel if they wanted, and be pretty much on the money for it.

Quote:
Lelouch wanted to give everyone a tomorrow by sacrificing his own - including Suzaku, who needed to be "punished" to be able to live with himself, and those who already hated him. Zero Requiem, while it was not the only solution, had its purpose.
Lelouch staying alive wouldn't necessarily have changed anything for the better. In fact, he'd have had a lot more trouble pulling his "tomorrow" off if not by making people hate him.
It would take longer, but it would work, not to mention that it would dovetail a lot more nicely with his words about people desiring free will.

Quote:
Liked that line, think it was to be expected.
Except that I don't believe the "killing their fathers" thin is meant as "this is what they needed to be punished for". It's just a "sin" they shared, and that influenced them greatly.
But is it a sin when it's self defense (stopping Charles from putting Ragnarok into motion by erasing him from existence)?

Quote:
It's true that with Nunnally around, Lelouch would probably not have been strong enough at this point to just let go of the one bit of happiness he had always wished.
That doesn't mean he was suicidal, though.
Don't you mean with Nunnally not around?

And it wasn't just Nunnally's apparent demise. It was the Trauma Conga Line he had suffered that that was part of: the death of Shirley, his accidental geassing and mercy killing of Euphie, the deaths he had been responsible for, his inability to save Kallen on his own, the temporary absence of C. C.'s true self, and of course the betrayal from the Black Knights. Lelouch could no longer keep up his resolve to believe he had a place in this lifetime due to his sins, failures and isolation.
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Old 2010-03-17, 04:31   Link #6731
karice67
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
Oh yeah, I'm on board with that. That's why I don't like the ending either. It's one thing to not like an ending in that a character you like died, it's another for the writers to Derail him, tell you they didn't, and insist that you have to like him for doing things that are considered horrible by pretty much any culture.
I don't think they're insisting that we like him for the things he's done, they're just asking that we try to understand why he did what he did, and why that was the appropriate ending for him.
Spoiler for Stuff that's slightly OT:

I'm not saying that what Lelouch did was right. A noble cause doesn't make vile methods acceptable, and I wouldn't like him if he were a real person in history. However, I certainly find him to be one of the more interesting anime characters of recent years.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-03-17 at 06:58.
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Old 2010-03-17, 06:24   Link #6732
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*nods* I agree with karice67.
Except that I might just have liked Lelouch even if he was a real person, and that I think the staff indeed believed he didn't do anything wrong with Zero Requiem, but other than that, I'll happily sign every single word.


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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
For that one moment, no. Other than that, they weren't necessarily chipper either.
True, but then again, they'd never really been "chipper".

Quote:
Which is true, and also why I contend that Zero Requiem is both a means to a Death Wish and plan for peace.
I can actually agree with that, although I'd emphasize the peace thing and mention the death wish only on a side note.

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Weren't you referring to Nunnally during the SAZ though?
I said she was compared to Euphie there, yes, before the whole thing even started.

Quote:
Besides, as blade would be too happy to point out, they could just scapegoat Charles and Schneizel if they wanted, and be pretty much on the money for it.
After geassing the soldiers and all?
Without that, taking over would have been a bit difficult.
Not to mention that Schneizel was pretty popular. I can see how Lelouch would convince the average citizen that Charles was evil and not awesome at all, but blaming Schneizel would have been troublesome. That, and Lelouch technically would have had no right to the throne even after saving the day.

Quote:
It would take longer, but it would work, not to mention that it would dovetail a lot more nicely with his words about people desiring free will.
It would have worked, but in a different way - some good points about that have already been made.
Also, I quite like Zero Requiem as a symbol - lies exist because people are yearning for something, and Lelouch's desire was peace. Therefore, he lied to the world, breaking the "chain of hatred" that had been preventing humans from reaching out for a happy "tomorrow" in the progress. A lie influenced them, but nothing more than the absence of said chain of hatred was needed to actually lead them into a better future. They are working towards that all by themselves, because deep down, it's what they desire.
It would have been less epic if Lelouch had done all the work for them instead of just giving them a chance to start over they were free to use or turn away from.

Quote:
But is it a sin when it's self defense (stopping Charles from putting Ragnarok into motion by erasing him from existence)?
For Suzaku, it was a sin. For Lelouch, well, not really, but I'm not sure if we are supposed to take the word "sin" literally. I automatically associate it with Suzaku's personal view on the whole issue, a view that also had heavy consequences for Lelouch and their relationship.

Quote:
Don't you mean with Nunnally not around?
Hum, no. Nunnally wasn't around when Zero Requiem was created. Later on, she was an obstacle he had to struggle to overcome, something he might not have been able to do if she'd still been around before he had gained that amount of resolution.

Quote:
And it wasn't just Nunnally's apparent demise. It was the Trauma Conga Line he had suffered that that was part of: the death of Shirley, his accidental geassing and mercy killing of Euphie, the deaths he had been responsible for, his inability to save Kallen on his own, the temporary absence of C. C.'s true self, and of course the betrayal from the Black Knights. Lelouch could no longer keep up his resolve to believe he had a place in this lifetime due to his sins, failures and isolation.
Thus, he desired "punishment". On that we can agree, I think.
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Old 2010-03-17, 08:09   Link #6733
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Both Lelouch and Suzaku did what they had to do for the future. Call it a deathwish, but most dictators would do anything to be in a position of power, and misuse it. Lelouch chose to take the modest way out, and label himself completely evil, instead of keeping doubts. His death is symbolic to show that justice does exist. Zero Requiem may be a lie, but this lie only kept people happy. I do not think that people will ever know the truth behind it as long as Suzaku is alive, and Nunally is empress. Remember that these people were geassed to serve Zero. by the time their children grow up, history of Zero Requiem would only be something of high school social studies. No one would care to investigate further. If anything, it will be more of a conspiracy theory.

I have mentioned it before to how everyone will work together, and make peace happen. If there is any aggression, then our superman, Suzaku, will deal with it.
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Old 2010-03-17, 10:26   Link #6734
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'Justice'? If CG taught me anything, it doesn't exist. Just an individual's attempt at recreating justice -- Self-righteousness.

Not all lies are bad, as is noted by the same person during the 'Emperor Dismissed' episode. Lelouch said people lie not for the sole purpose of hurting others. True enough... Zero Requiem probably hurt more then he figured.

Lelouch's punishment is only a fraction of what i'd put myself through. Death is an easy way out, imho. I would've paid my crimes by allowing Jeremiah to give peace to Suzaku, and swapping geass for code, living eternally as the constant watchguard of the world.

Romantisized? Yes. would it be effective? Alot more then Suzero. Suzaku isn't smart enough to handle diplomacy. Nunnally is naive at best. Schneizel, regardless of his command, would still be uncaring about the body count long as he helped Zero maintain peace.

I would've killed Schneizel if I was Lelouch, and did what I said I would. Hell, Zero Requiem never would've happened.

Speculation and self-insertion, though. Still... It was more realistic. Oh well, Lelouch did what he felt what was right. Even if that was twisted and shaped by madness brought by sadness.

Now excuse me... *Goes lsitens to Noblesse Oblige*
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Old 2010-03-17, 11:17   Link #6735
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Yet Lelouch and Suzaku joked with each other in one of these stories like in old times, even bringing up Nunnally while doing so.
Also, the fact remains that Okouchi called Lelouch a "modern hero" who changed the world "without making a big deal out of it" - not someone who gave in to despair and committed the most elaborate assisted suicide in history.
Where did Okouchi call Lelouch a modern hero, I keep on hearing this quote, but I don't know where the quote is from.
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Old 2010-03-17, 14:02   Link #6736
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I think this whole "paying for one's crimes" thing is pointless in the first place, but... *shrugs*
If it made Lelouch feel better.

Killing Schneizel, though?
Don't see the point in that. He's loyal to Zero - all Suzaku has to do is tell him not to kill or harm anyone without explicit permission.

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Where did Okouchi call Lelouch a modern hero, I keep on hearing this quote, but I don't know where the quote is from.
http://www.gamespot.com/pinball/acti...916407&page=13

Quote:
Okouchi: Helping the weak is the characteristic of a hero, and it's an aesthetic value that hasn't depreciated over time. However, I think that setting out in a showy manner, defeating the powerful who are abusing the weak, and being thanked by the weak in return is the "cool" thing in the past, while the heroes of today are "cool" because even when they've saved the weak they simply leave in a cool manner, and don't make a big deal out of it.
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Old 2010-03-17, 22:40   Link #6737
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Well, Lelouch did what seemed right to him. Now there are a group of people who can make the future better. According to the epilogue, equality has already been achieved. Lelouch may not live, but if the situation calls for it, there is Schneizel who can use his head, to really outsmart future opponents. There is no reason why a system like this will fail, when ordinary citizens support the new government wholeheartedly. When it comes to Suzaku, he does not need diplomacy, as much as his own belief in goodness. Nunally will use diplomacy, while Schneizel will plan, and be strategic, if the situation calls for it.

Lelouch had power. He had women who loved him. He was in a highly respected, and unique position. He died for the greater cause, rather than live a fancy life. He was only 19. That is a much shorter span of years in power, than Light Yagami's. So did he die to take the easy way out? I don't think so. We are speaking of the same Lelouch who was ready to kill his own childhood friend, just for interfering. People like this usually have a God complex, and would rather live, and make actions. Instead, Lelouch chose to die for a unique cause. This is the same Lelouch, who was regarded as a monster by Nunally in the final episode.

I don't see much of a problem with Lelouch being immortal, other than the fact that he is already murdered lots of people. He could have lived, and corrected his mistakes, but the world already knew him as an evil Britannian.
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Old 2010-03-17, 22:49   Link #6738
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Except that Nunnally calling him a monster was all according to plan, and she took it back once she learned the truth about ZR.

The one thing wrong about Schneizel, if nothing else, is that the Geass command he was placed under could break.
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Old 2010-03-17, 22:53   Link #6739
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Originally Posted by HollowScar View Post
Well, Lelouch did what seemed right to him. Now there are a group of people who can make the future better. According to the epilogue, equality has already been achieved. Lelouch may not live, but if the situation calls for it, there is Schneizel who can use his head, to really outsmart future opponents. There is no reason why a system like this will fail, when ordinary citizens support the new government wholeheartedly. When it comes to Suzaku, he does not need diplomacy, as much as his own belief in goodness. Nunally will use diplomacy, while Schneizel will plan, and be .
The funny thing is that few of the leaders in the show commented that Schenizeil himself would make an effective leader in peaceful times.

Charles wanted Schneziel to run things once Ragnarok was completed according to Bismarck.

Then you got Cornelia who said the same thing.

And then add in Lelouch.

I mean it's a few but I'd say that's quite overwhelming support.

Quote:
The one thing wrong about Schneizel, if nothing else, is that the Geass command he was placed under could break.
The only one who could break it would be himself or Jeremiah and that's not going to happen. It would take immense will power to break it and only Nunnally was able to do it because of her brother.

Though if he were to break it, I doubt he would go all gung ho and slaughter everyone. He's already running things to begin with and he doesn't need weapons.
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Old 2010-03-17, 23:01   Link #6740
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What if he didn't completely agree with the ideas that were implemented, deep down inside, and were to find some sort of loophole in the Geass?
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