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Old 2010-04-29, 11:40   Link #6841
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
What? Who implied that? The show made it pretty damn clear that "A rule under Damocles" would be quite shitty. Honestly, where did that question come from.
actually no
the show does NOT make it clear
all that it makes clear is that it would make world peace PERMANENT rather then temporary
it would kill a lot of people, but it would make sure that those who don't die would never have to worry about war ever again
since anyone who STARTS wars would be destroyed (and hence, no one would be willing to start wars)

Quote:
Again, the show explained pretty clearly that it was about 'Uniting the world against a common enemy. Which works in theory, and might work in real life.
that has nothing to do with the world wanting a tomorrow
stopping Shnizel would be explained as Lelouch believes that the damocles would prevent people from moving forwards
but uniting the world against him is NOT derived from "people wants a tomorrow"

simply stopping shnizel would save the world
but Lelouch does not want to save the world
Lelouch wants to destroy it, and recreate it

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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
But he'd have still felt like shit about it, hence the distinction between a sociopath and... whatever Lelouch was.
i didn't say he was a sociopath
i just said he'd kill anyone for the sake of his vision
the fact that he'd feel bad about it just makes him worse for doing it

Quote:
You're conveniently ignoring that he did it on purpose to be the most hated person ever, and that his actions resulted in world peace.
if shnizel had been allowed to succeed, his plan would also result in world peace
i would not consider him a hero for it

Lelouch defeating shnizel and signing a peace treaty with the UFN would have resulted in world peace
that i would respect
Lelouch dragging the entire world into a war and killing countless innocents just to achieve what could be achieved with signing a piece of paper
that i do not respect

the only reason the ending is happy is because the plot went out of its way to GIVE Lelouch the perfect ending by giving the entire cast reinforced plot armor for the duration of the last battle and hence, Lelouch's insane actions didn't hurt anyone the audience might like
Nunnaly, Kallen, Kaguya
if even a single one of them had been killed because of Lelouch's actions, you'd have a hard time making him out as a hero
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Old 2010-04-29, 11:47   Link #6842
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
transfered from Suzaku thread

Lelouch doesn't know best
if shnizel had won, the fight, and it resulted in world peace, would that make HIM "know best" ?
what he saw in the world of peace does not translate into what he did
people wanting a tomorrow might explain why he wanted to stop shnizel
it does not explain what Z-R was about


there was that mutality story in which suzaku asks Lelouch if he's sure this is what he wants, and lelouch makes it clear that while there may be other paths to take
THIS is the only path for him
the scene in the end of ep 24 where he and shnizel are talking is basiclly the two of them discussing the merits of each others masterplans
so yeah



i refuse to accept "just roll with it" as an excuse
if you are planning to rip off watchmen, at least do it properly by admiting that the guy who brings about world peace by deception and mass murder is the villain and not some kinda hero for it



Lelouch crosses the moral event horizon before the opening song of ep 22
and hits the ground running from there on out
the fact that he admits that he IS willing to kill nunnaly for the sake of this plan, indicates that he considers nothing to be more important then his "Vision"

and the scene with C.C is bullshit
its ment to mirror the scene in ep 23 of season 1, except that it misses the point
what happened to euphie is a tragedy, so there is an actual reason to feel sympathy for Lelouch
what happened in season 2 was Lelouch acting like a complete dick for an entire episode
and then whining like a little girl
he deserved worse
lol blade, yeah I pretty much agree with you, except that I (am possibly insane/egocentric enough to) sympathize with Lelouch, Schniezel, and Charles. I don't really have a problem with any of them deciding they 'know best' and forcing their 'Utopia' onto others, 'cause, well, those sort of personalities are often what fiction is about. But yeah, I'm with you on pretty much everything else.

With regards to your 'what was Z-R about' statement at the beginning. Well, aside from the aforementioned desire for tomorrow, there are, I suppose, two key things. One is Lelouch's insistence that lies and the human capability to decieve is meaningful. Of course, as Zero, he'd basically been living that (a lie) all along, and since it was one of his key points of disagreement with Charles, his final plan basically had to involve him lying in some manner. So we can almost say that the sole reason Lelouch decided to be a tyrannical asshole and kill people like he didn't care was because of his insistence that lying about his desire for peace and for everybody to pursue a happy future was more meaningful than pursuing peace/happiness directly.

The other thing would be that, really, Lelouch had been acting like he 'knew best' for the entire series, so doing so for his final plan wasn't really out of character. As far back as Lelouch wiping Shirley's memories 'for' her back in Stage 12, I'd been pissed off at Lelouch's idea that he knew what was best for people; Lelouch's attempts to recruit Suzaku; him telling Kallen in Stage 25 to support him because 'Japan would be liberated anyway'; him deciding that his rebellion was for 'the sake of' Nunally--all of this reflected that mentality, that other people should be happy to recieve what he's giving them. So just like with the lying thing, rather than change and start acting differently at Zero: Requiem, it only makes sense that for his master plan Lelouch would take it a step further and decide he knew what was best for everybody in the entire world .

In terms of character development, I basically consider Zero: Requiem Lelouch's failure to change lol. Because, aside from finally getting over his revenge and truly embracing tomorrow, Lelouch continued to walk into the same pitfalls he'd fallen into all series long. The 'tomorrow' issue still made the whole thing agreeable to me, though, because one improvement is still better than none.
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Old 2010-04-29, 11:52   Link #6843
bladeofdarkness
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@sol
one ep before the start of Z-R Lelouch learns that he was wrong about EVERYTHING about his life
and that EVERYTHING he has done since episode one, has been both a MASSIVE waste of time, and has claimed the lives of almost everyone he cared about

you'd think he'd be a bit less arrogant about him "knowing best" after that one
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:24   Link #6844
Sol Falling
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Heh, indeed. Er, I made some ninja edits to my post--in particular, I added that last paragraph.

I personally greatly anticipated Lelouch's 'getting a clue' moment in Turn 22, when he realized that his 'kind, perfect Mother' wasn't killed due to the vile manipulations of the aristocracy or the bastard negligence of his Father. I thought it'd be a tremendous turning point, where we'd finally see him learning some humility. But instead, he bounced right back and decided to kill them anyway, lol. However, I suppose Lelouch deciding he 'knew better' than Charles was necessary for him to actually stop Instrumentality (though indeed, like I said before I actually like Charles and prefer his 'lies suck' philosophy over Lelouch's 'lies are great' one). I think, after Lelouch went right ahead and killed his parents anyway, was the final point when I gave up on any hope of Lelouch changing that aspect of his personality and saw that the 'Lelouch knows best' element of the show continuing to the end would just be inevitable.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 33/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 60/5
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:40   Link #6845
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I never saw anything noble in suicide. I was never fond of all the seppuku stuff either. Suicide and mass manipulation of opinions is ten times as bad. I really don't like Lulu's masterplan or the conclusion of the series in general.

I prefer the V for Vendetta ending
Spoiler for ending:


I even prefer the LoGH ending
Spoiler for ending:


After watching all three of these endings, there is no reason to like CGZR. It felt like Lulu (jeez, even his name is fujoshi material) ran away from facing his crimes and even made it look like it was noble seppuku. BS I say.
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Old 2010-04-29, 14:39   Link #6846
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As I've been saying recently, Lelouch had become a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds post-Ragnarok incident. He wasn't acting with the best of interests or evidently knowledge thereof, he was looking for a way out that might result in world peace. He had completely lost it after falling beyond the Despair Event Horizon at the end of R2 19.

You know me. I blame Ohgi and Villetta for being the straw that broke the camel's back.

Last edited by azul120; 2010-04-29 at 14:50.
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Old 2010-04-29, 17:08   Link #6847
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I'm bored of this now. The show made an obvious distinction between 'living' and a string of experiences till you die. That's why Lelouch's peace was worth more than Schniezels.

The moving into the future part was basically, in theory, setting all the bad blood between races in the world on Lelouch so that when he dies everyone decides to work together to ensure peace. I agree it's very overly idealistic and works better in theory than real life (like communism I guess), but if they said it worked, it worked. There's plenty of things that make less sense in the geass world anyway.


Charles's idea would have resulted in the complete loss of individuality. Life would be pretty meaningless. You could never get to know or get close to someone because when you first met them, what you see is exactly what you get, and everyone would be exactly the same. The idea was that lies are what make up what our personalities are.

'What good is trust if no one ever lies? What's so good about happiness if you never experience pain?', I think, is the general idea.

Though really, I think we'll just end up having to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
As I've been saying recently, Lelouch had become a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds post-Ragnarok incident. He wasn't acting with the best of interests or evidently knowledge thereof, he was looking for a way out that might result in world peace. He had completely lost it after falling beyond the Despair Event Horizon at the end of R2 19.

You know me. I blame Ohgi and Villetta for being the straw that broke the camel's back.
Agreed. I'd like to know what he'd have done if he'd known Nunnally was alive, that would have probably made a big difference to his plans.

I actually have nothing against Villetta. She was a Britannian spy who Lelouch was blackmailing into co-operating with him, she didn't owe him anything. The Black knight's did owe him, should have given him the benefit of the doubt, and recognised that she wasn't exactly trustworthy instead of jumping on the "Zero betrayed us!" (that doesn't even make sense) bandwagon on her word with no evidence. Ougi and the rest of the Black Knights were just ungrateful bastards. /bleh sorry for the rant, but that pissed me off so much.
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Old 2010-04-29, 17:15   Link #6848
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
I'm bored of this now. The show made an obvious distinction between 'living' and a string of experiences till you die. That's why Lelouch's peace was worth more than Schniezels.

The moving into the future part was basically, in theory, setting all the bad blood between races in the world on Lelouch so that when he dies everyone decides to work together to ensure peace. I agree it's very overly idealistic, but if they said it worked it worked.

Charles's idea would have resulted in the complete loss of individuality. Life would be pretty meaningless. You could never get to know or get close to someone because when you first met them, what you see is exactly what you get, and everyone would be exactly the same. The idea was that lies are what make up what our personalities are.

'What good is trust if no one ever lies? What's so good about happiness if you never experience pain?', I think, is the general idea.

Though really, I think we'll just end up having to agree to disagree.



Agreed. I'd like to know what he'd have done if he'd known Nunnally was alive, that would have probably made a big difference to his plans.
He wouldn't have enacted the Zero Requiem then, as that was a response to the loss of everything he held close to him in life.

Quote:
I actually have nothing against Villetta. She was a Britannian spy who Lelouch was blackmailing into co-operating with him, she didn't owe him anything. The Black knight's should have recognised that instead of jumping on the "Zero betrayed us!" (that doesn't even make sense) bandqwagon with her word. Ougi and the rest of the Black Knights were just ungrateful bastards.
Lelouch blackmailed Villetta because Villetta was spying on him on behalf of the Emperor, which she was doing for the sake of being a noble, and he needed her off his back. She was self-serving, and not even her affection to Ohgi changed that. Infact, her act there was even more callow, considering that she had earlier seen how noble Lelouch was underneath the proverbial mask while at Ashford.
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Old 2010-04-30, 11:13   Link #6849
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
As I've been saying recently, Lelouch had become a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds post-Ragnarok incident. He wasn't acting with the best of interests or evidently knowledge thereof, he was looking for a way out that might result in world peace. He had completely lost it after falling beyond the Despair Event Horizon at the end of R2 19.

You know me. I blame Ohgi and Villetta for being the straw that broke the camel's back.
Actually, the official stance is that it was mostly Lelouch's pride that made him decide to die. Or at least, that's what it very much sounds like in the respecive interview with Okouchi.
It's just that it was much easier to choose his "pride" over his life with no ties left to bind him.

If Nunnally had been alive, I don't think Lelouch would have been able to find the resolve for Zero Requiem - even when he'd already decided on it and claimed he would kill her if necessary, it seemed that he could only really go through with his plan because he realized that Nunnally would be able to live on without him. We don't know what would have happened if that hadn't been the case - I don't think he'd have given up on ZR, as it was already far too late for that, but I have no doubt it wouldn't have been a happy ending for him at all. I don't believe for a second that he would just have killed her and moved on.
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Old 2010-04-30, 11:21   Link #6850
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Actually, the official stance is that it was mostly Lelouch's pride that made him decide to die. Or at least, that's what it very much sounds like in the respecive interview with Okouchi.
It's just that it was much easier to choose his "pride" over his life with no ties left to bind him.

If Nunnally had been alive, I don't think Lelouch would have been able to find the resolve for Zero Requiem - even when he'd already decided on it and claimed he would kill her if necessary, it seemed that he could only really go through with his plan because he realized that Nunnally would be able to live on without him. We don't know what would have happened if that hadn't been the case - I don't think he'd have given up on ZR, as it was already far too late for that, but I have no doubt it wouldn't have been a happy ending for him at all. I don't believe for a second that he would just have killed her and moved on.
the fact that he didn't NEED to kill anyone he actually cares about is the biggest cop out
Nunnaly getting her eyesight back just in time for him to be able to geass her is bullshit
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Old 2010-04-30, 11:28   Link #6851
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the fact that he didn't NEED to kill anyone he actually cares about is the biggest cop out
Nunnaly getting her eyesight back just in time for him to be able to geass her is bullshit
I liked it, and I thought it made sense.

Nunnally finally decided to stand on her own two feet (uhm, so to speak), and Lelouch had to realize that he had underestimated her. For most of her life, Nunnally had never wanted to "see" the world, so she couldn't overcome her father's Geass.

Works for me.
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Old 2010-04-30, 11:28   Link #6852
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Nunnally got her eyesight back because of her will to stop her brother. She wanted to find the FLEIJA activation key to the point she needed to see. That is what broke the geass seal... She won in a way, but she lost the moment she tried challenging a dead man. (figuratively and sorta literally.)

Lelouch was broken, he needed the activation key.

"I command you to shove it up your end you ingrate."

"Sure thing Oniichan."

xD there was a comic that went like that.
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Old 2010-04-30, 11:39   Link #6853
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It's a lost cause arguing with Nogi re: Zero Requiem. (No offense Nogi.)
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Old 2010-04-30, 11:42   Link #6854
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
Nunnally got her eyesight back because of her will to stop her brother. She wanted to find the FLEIJA activation key to the point she needed to see. That is what broke the geass seal... She won in a way, but she lost the moment she tried challenging a dead man. (figuratively and sorta literally.)

Lelouch was broken, he needed the activation key.

"I command you to shove it up your end you ingrate."

"Sure thing Oniichan."

xD there was a comic that went like that.
if the plot magic hadn't made her able to see again, it would have been much more interesting and much more tragic (which is what Lelouch deserved)

nunnaly sits on the chair when Lelouch comes along
her eyes AREN'T open, but her finger is on the trigger (that would destroy the damocles and kill them all)
Lelouch can't get to her fast enough to take the button because she would hear it if he gets any closer and trigger the flejia

he has one of three choices
1)convincing her to give him the key
2)give up on the idea of taking the key from her
3)shoot her and take the key from her cold dead hands

THATS the tragic dilemma that should have happened
Lelouch wants to spill rivers of blood to destroy the world and create it anew ?
the plot should have forced him to put his money where his mouth was

instead, the plot ALLOWS him to get both his plan AND save nunnaly (this is nothing to do with him, its entirely plot related)
and thus, he is spared from having to make any real dilemmas he would have had to face
he's fine with murdering countless innocent people who he doesn't know and doesn't care about
and he's never put in a position where he has to sacrifice someone he DOES care about for the sake of the plan
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Old 2010-04-30, 11:44   Link #6855
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It's a lost cause arguing with Nogi re: Zero Requiem. (No offense Nogi.)
Well, it's true - but it goes both ways. xD
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Old 2010-04-30, 11:57   Link #6856
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Well, at that point he'd lost his mind following the betrayal. You know where I place the blame.
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Old 2010-04-30, 12:01   Link #6857
bladeofdarkness
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Well, at that point he'd lost his mind following the betrayal. You know where I place the blame.
doesn't matter
losing his mind does not excuse Deus Ex Machina stepping in
Lelouch should have been forced to choose between killing nunnaly or abandoning his plan JUST LIKE IN SEASON 1
if they were going for a happy ending, they should have chosen a different ending altogether
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Old 2010-04-30, 12:08   Link #6858
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I see your point, though if the betrayal never happened, Zero Requiem wouldn't have taken place to begin with, and Lelouch wouldn't end up squared off against Nunnally.

There was a "What If...?" fanfic where Kallen was given the chance to go back in time in order to stop both Suzaku firing off the FLEIJA, as well as the betrayal. The idea was the same as mine: Lelouch, no longer faced with isolation and despair, wouldn't resort to the Zero Requiem.
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Old 2010-04-30, 12:21   Link #6859
bladeofdarkness
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Lelouch, chose to conquer the world for the sake of his master plan
long before the black knights turned on him he was already talking about destroying and recreating the world (ep 1 and ep 12 of season 2)

the plot should have forced him to choose between sacrificing the one person he loves most and carrying out his master plan
he should have been forced to choose if he's a monster or a man
instead the plot GIVES him a third option, and even encourages him to carry on with his plan by turning nunnaly (who was euphie MKII) into someone who ALSO thinks she knows better then everyone else whats best for the world and is willing to use a weapon of mass destruction to carry this plan out
all so he could feel even MORE secure with his plan

i gotta call bullshit
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Old 2010-04-30, 12:36   Link #6860
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Maybe the Euphie MKII thing is purposely inserted into the show, make Lelouch feel even more guilt, in a way showing his undying resolve to go on with the plan even if it meant killing another person which he loved dearly...

Again
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