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Old 2010-05-01, 09:42   Link #6881
Nogitsune
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Well, the staff did want to portray Lelouch as a "modern hero", as Okouchi said. But I'll stay out of this Zero Requiem discussion. I just blinked at...

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Originally Posted by Shizuo View Post
The Ikaruga is shown during the final scene. So not all the main ships sunk. And I do believe Kanon might have died. As the last time he is seen, he's lying on the ground with a bullet wound (Not dead yet).
Wasn't that Diethard?
As far as I remember, Kanon was merely sedated and still alive and kicking (well, not so much kicking) when Lelouch gave his, "obey me, world!" line.
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Old 2010-05-01, 09:49   Link #6882
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
As far as I remember, Kanon was merely sedated and still alive and kicking (well, not so much kicking) when Lelouch gave his, "obey me, world!" line.
That's the part I was talking about. I swear I saw blood around him. Huh... :/ Checking again... You do appear to be right. Ehem. Editing my previous post now. >_>
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Old 2010-05-01, 09:52   Link #6883
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Originally Posted by Shizuo View Post
That scene was describing how the world had changed since the day Lelouch died. Why do they need to mention how many people he killed when they are talking about the changes in the world? And with the whole "Lelouch was right" thing, I believe I mentioned in my last post that a few people came to understand why he did what he did. This quote from the final scene reinforces my point, "All sorts of hateful and evil deeds have been blamed on you". That leads me to believe that the majority of people didn't come to understand it.
i'm not talking about what the "characters" think
i'm talking about the way the PLOT presents the situation
the overall message from the writers is that Lelouch did the right thing and we should support it

Quote:
Describing events rather than showing them is a powerful tool. As it allows us to picture the event, thereby involving the audience and letting them form their own interpretations. Which lets us have discussions like the one we are having now. I mean, a show that spoon fed you everything would be rather boring, don't you agree?
not even remotely
hearing that he did something bad without seeing it allows people to ignore it better
and there shouldn't BE interpretations
If Lelouch kills innocent people simply to be hated (which was the whole point), thats not interpretation
thats fact
not SHOWING the facts, creates the illusion of alternate interpretations
thats part of what roriconfan was trying to show with the NAZI analogy

Quote:
His masked troops were under the power of his geass. The troops mindless loyalty and lack of individuality made them less than human. If you want sympathy for mindless drones, you're talking to the wrong guy.
if the soldiers were NOT brainwashed and masked, you wouldn't be so quick to simply dismiss them as mindless drones
and the point is that they were NOT mindless drones until Lelouch TURNED them into mindless drone
thats part of his crime

Quote:
Schneizel and the Black Knights were just as responsible for that battle as Lelouch was. But I do agree on the main point there. Sometimes, plots just do that. We can't really do much about that now can we?
the black knights were only fighting him because he conquered japan and kidnapped the UFN leaders under a banner of peace talks
had he simply signed a peace treaty with the UFN there wouldn't BE a final battle (Schneizel is isolated in cambodia, and Lelouch can simply attack him at his whim)

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Right, because taking a key from a small, crippled child without killing them is really that hard... "Whoops, I knocked your wheelchair over." That's all it'd take.

I'm just sayin'.
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Okay, Lelouch's entire reason for going on this crazy adventure (for lack of a better term) was to make the world a better place for Nunnally. So why would he kill her?
Nunnally was holding the trigger to the final flejia that was about to destory the entire damocles (as shnizel said)
she pressed the button, and the whole place goes off
if Lelouch couldn't GEASS her into giving him the key, then he wouldn't have been able to take it from her because she'd set it off the moment he came too close to her (he has no reflexes, and she can hear better then most, and only has to press a button)
he would have had to either give up on taking the key, or kill her to take it

her getting her eyes back allowed him to geass her into giving him the key
and thus the PLOT saved him from having to make the final tragic choice that would have painted him as either a monster (for killing nunnaly) or a hypocrite (for being willing to kill thousends but back down when nunnaly was involved)

this has nothing to do with his planing
this is straight up Deus Ex Machina

Quote:
The Ikaruga is shown during the final scene. So not all the main ships sunk. And I do believe Kanon might have died. As the last time he is seen, he's lying on the ground with a bullet wound (Not dead yet). But I didn't see him after that. So I'm just speculating here.
kanon is alive in the execution scene
and the ikaruga crashed with all but the bridge destroyed (the bridge only survived because kallen and tamaki saved it)

Quote:
But I digress, even if one of those two had died, I believe a happy ending would've still been possible. It just would've been portrayed through someone else's point of view. I mean, it's not like the show needed Kallen to make the ending tone a happy one. (Oh god, I'm going to be ripped apart for that last statement >_<).
its part of a pattern
Lelouch's actions resulted in him having to kill euphie after first destroying everything she stood for
and his attempt at manipulating rolo ended up in sheirly's death
both were indirectly killed because of Lelouch's actions
having him repeat the patern a THIRD time by once again killing a girl who loves him because of his own ego trip would have painted the ending in quite a different shade
because it would have showed that he had learnt nothing
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Old 2010-05-01, 09:57   Link #6884
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Originally Posted by Shizuo View Post
That's the part I was talking about. I swear I saw blood around him. Huh... :/ Checking again... You do appear to be right. Ehem. Editing my previous post now. >_>
*grins* I know how it is to mix things up.


@blade:
Why would Lelouch have absolutely needed to kill Nunnally in such a scenario? If you ask me, it's far more likely that he'd just have told her the truth, and from there, a lot of things could have happened. I doubt ZR would have ended up being an undeniable tragedy - it's just that the staff wanted Nunnally to open her eyes for reasons I rather appreciate.
Oh well.
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:03   Link #6885
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
*grins* I know how it is to mix things up.


@blade:
Why would Lelouch have absolutely needed to kill Nunnally in such a scenario? If you ask me, it's far more likely that he'd just have told her the truth, and from there, a lot of things could have happened. I doubt ZR would have ended up being an undeniable tragedy - it's just that the staff wanted Nunnally to open her eyes for reasons I rather appreciate.
Oh well.
Nunnaly would have either had to be convinced into giving him the key
or killed for him to get the key
the chances of her agreeing are slim at best (if she knew he was planing to kill himself)
and her resolve to stop him at any cost already led her to try and kill him
odds are, she would not be talked into it

either way, the results would have and SHOULD have been more complex and tragic then *geass* "give me the key"
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:12   Link #6886
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Nunnaly would have either had to be convinced into giving him the key
or killed for him to get the key
the chances of her agreeing are slim at best (if she knew he was planing to kill himself)
and her resolve to stop him at any cost already led her to try and kill him
odds are, she would not be talked into it
It could have been pulled off, which is why I believe that saying she opened her eyes just so that Lelouch didn't have to make a choice doesn't work. In fact, Lelouch was very reluctant to use his Geass on her, so it would have been enough to make her say something that makes her seem like Schneizel's helpless victim. Lelouch could make the choice to override her will and move on because he realized that she was more independent than he had believed.

Quote:
either way, the results would have and SHOULD have been more complex and tragic then *geass* "give me the key"
I think the scene as it is is pretty complex already and reveals quite a bit about the characters. There are a lot of people who have a problem with a lot of scenes - that doesn't mean those scenes should be changed.

I understand the dissatisfaction with Zero Requiem (to a point), but this is something else.
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:19   Link #6887
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
It could have been pulled off, which is why I believe that saying she opened her eyes just so that Lelouch didn't have to make a choice doesn't work. In fact, Lelouch was very reluctant to use his Geass on her, so it would have been enough to make her say something that makes her seem like Schneizel's helpless victim. Lelouch could make the choice to override her will and move on because he realized that she was more independent than he had believed.
thats not complex
bending her will to hand him the key is bullshit, because the guy had been spamming his geass for weeks turning thousands of people into mindless slaves
he cant complain about using it on Nunnaly at that point, since he only uses it to have her hand him something
Lelouch is still able to fix everything with his magical plot device super power
he doesn't have to make a CHOICE because his powers, and the PLOT magic allow him to have both his plan AND Nunnaly

if he doesn't have to choose between the two, then its a dilemma is it ?

and i wouldn't have MINDED if he had simply taken a third option because HE made some genius plan to solve the problem, but he didn't
he got HANDED this third option on a silver plate by the gods of bullshit plot twists

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I understand the dissatisfaction with Zero Requiem (to a point), but this is something else.
yes
Z-R is a stupid idea
THIS is Deus Ex Machina
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:25   Link #6888
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
thats not complex
bending her will to hand him the key is bullshit, because the guy had been spamming his geass for weeks turning thousands of people into mindless slaves
he cant complain about using it on Nunnaly at that point, since he only uses it to have her hand him something
But he does. Re-watch the scene - Nunnally and Suzaku were the two people he never wanted to use his Geass on. Ever.
To Lelouch, it's very different from using it on strangers, no matter what he uses it for.

Quote:
Lelouch is still able to fix everything with his magical plot device super power
he doesn't have to make a CHOICE because his powers, and the PLOT magic allow him to have both his plan AND Nunnaly
And yet he made a choice, and let Nunnally go. For Lelouch, to whom Nunnally was everything for the longest time, this menas a lot.

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yes
Z-R is a stupid idea
THIS is Deus Ex Machina
This is the Lelouch thread, not the "the creators are doing it all wrong!" thread. We can speculate about what Lelouch would have done if this or that had happened, but if it's just complaining about a scene, this is not the right place.
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:33   Link #6889
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
But he does. Re-watch the scene - Nunnally and Suzaku were the two people he never wanted to use his Geass on. Ever.
To Lelouch, it's very different from using it on strangers, no matter what he uses it for.
at that point, he has no RIGHT to complain about it
that he does, simply makes him even more of a child
if i'm suppose to feel for his plight at having to geass Nunnaly, then it failed
it WOULD have worked had he not just used his geass in the most horrible way possible for several eps straight

Quote:
And yet he made a choice, and let Nunnally go. For Lelouch, to whom Nunnally was everything for the longest time, this menas a lot.
no he didn't
that was the entire point of what i said
because she had her eyes back, he didn't NEED to choose between her and his plan
he was able to have his plan, AND save Nunnaly too
if he had to choose between killing her or abandoning his plan, THAT would have been a dilemma
in season 1 he was faced with a dilemma because he had to choose between going after Nunnaly or completing his goal (he chose wrong, and payed for it)
this didn't happen here, because plot magic allowed him to have both

Quote:
This is the Lelouch thread, not the "the creators are doing it all wrong!" thread. We can speculate about what Lelouch would have done if this or that had happened, but if it's just complaining about a scene, this is not the right place.
the whole POINT is that this bad case of writing was done TO effect how Lelouch is viewed at the end
so it IS relevent
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:42   Link #6890
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
at that point, he has no RIGHT to complain about it
that he does, simply makes him even more of a child
if i'm suppose to feel for his plight at having to geass Nunnaly, then it failed
it WOULD have worked had he not just used his geass in the most horrible way possible for several eps straight
Lelouch had issues, that's nothing new. And exactly because of that, a lot of people did feel his plight.

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no he didn't
Yes, he did. He did not have to choose between saving Nunnally and saving the world, but it was still difficult for him to let go of her. And that's all I'm saying.

Quote:
the whole POINT is that this bad case of writing was done TO effect how Lelouch is viewed at the end
so it IS relevent
Again, this claim could be made about a lot of scenes.

I don't think it's bad writing, I don't even think it made much of a difference when it comes to the impression the viewers got of Lelouch (except if he had killed Nunnally, but I really don't think he would have), and I'll back off now if I manage to restrain myself.
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:52   Link #6891
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
in season 1 he was faced with a dilemma because he had to choose between going after Nunnaly or completing his goal (he chose wrong, and payed for it)
this didn't happen here, because plot magic allowed him to have both
About this. During R1 his goal was to create a better world for Nunnally to live in. So tell me, how is he going to complete his goal if he had let her get kidnapped and possibly killed?


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I'll back off now if I manage to restrain myself.
No, stay in it. It's less work for me fun to watch.
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:53   Link #6892
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Lelouch had issues, that's nothing new. And exactly because of that, a lot of people did feel his plight.
where's the plight about having to be MEAN to your little sister after you just killed thousands of people just an HOUR before that ?

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Yes, he did. He did not have to choose between saving Nunnally and saving the world, but it was still difficult for him to let go of her. And that's all I'm saying.
what "let go of her" ?
he was going to kill himself
what was he suppose to do, take her with him ?


Quote:
Again, this claim could be made about a lot of scenes.

I don't think it's bad writing, I don't even think it made much of a difference when it comes to the impression the viewers got of Lelouch (except if he had killed Nunnally, but I really don't think he would have), and I'll back off now if I manage to restrain myself.
what did you think of him in season 1 when he decided
"i just killed many innocent people, destroyed everything my step sister (who i loved) stood for and made sure she'd forever be remembered as a monster, took all my friends as hostages and rallied an entire nation behind me for a fight that would determine the fate a hundred million people"
"everything is dependent on me, and all the lives that were lost to get me here would be rendered moot if we fail here"

"but screw all that, i've got to go get my little sister back"

because THATS what a dilemma is
and thats how you take the wrong choice in it
he deserved pity for it
not sympathy

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Originally Posted by Shizuo View Post
About this. During R1 his goal was to create a better world for Nunnally to live in. So tell me, how is he going to complete his goal if he had let her get kidnapped and possibly killed?.
read the above mentioned for an explanation on why he made the wrong choice
Lelouch is faced with a dilemma
his FAILING to make the write choice, makes him human, but also makes him a very flawed human
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:59   Link #6893
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what "let go of her" ?
he was going to kill himself
what was he suppose to do, take her with him ?
How about, "screw it all, I'll keep on living!"
No, actually, I think he'd just have kept standing there thinking about it and slowly straved to death.
Definitely!

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because THATS what a dilemma is
and thats how you take the wrong choice in it
I don't even think it was "the wrong choice". As far as I'm concerned, it really was a dilemma - whatever he did, he was screwed.
Making the other choice at the end of the anime would have seemed pretty random to me, as I consider it neither better nor worse.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:03   Link #6894
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Lelouch has issues. This can sum up a lot of his behaviour very easily.

No one's claimed that Lelouch did things right all the time. It's made very clear that Lelouch's weakness is Nunnally (and Suzaku, actually). He might be smart, but when Nunnally's in danger, that overrides everything, so he panics and just does whatever's best to save her, to hell with everything else. I'm sure that if Lelouch had a choice to save a hundred people or Nunnally, he'd pick Nunnally after barely a moments thought.

Lelouch was a very flawed, very complicated character, that's what's do good about him. Nobody wants to watch about a perfect character who makes all the right decisions all the time, because that's boring as fuck.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:04   Link #6895
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
How about, "screw it all, I'll keep on living!"
No, actually, I think he'd just have kept standing there thinking about it and slowly straved to death.
Definitely!
in other words, give up on Z-R and render all the deaths he caused moot
that would be in character for Lelouch (he did it in season 1)
and would have ended the show with him being the biggest hypocrite in anime
but it would have a better then just giving him a free pass and not having him choose between his plan and Nunnaly through plot magic


Quote:
I don't even think it was "the wrong choice". As far as I'm concerned, it really was a dilemma - whatever he did, he was screwed.
thats exactly why he should have faced the same thing in the final ep
either kill Nunnaly or abandon his plans
either way he's screwed, but the question is :
is he a monster, or a hypocrite

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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
[B][I]
No one's claimed that Lelouch did things right all the time. It's made very clear that Lelouch's weakness is Nunnally (and Suzaku, actually). He might be smart, but when Nunnally's in danger, that overrides everything, so he panics and just does whatever's best to save her, to hell with everything else. I'm sure that if Lelouch had a choice to save a hundred people or Nunnally, he'd pick Nunnally after barely a moments thought.

Nobody wants to watch about a perfect character who makes all the right decisions all the time, because that's boring as fuck.
which is why the ending is such a huge cop out
he SHOULD have been forced to choose between saving her or carrying on with the plan
instead the PLOT gave him a third option for no reason other then making him sympathetic
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:05   Link #6896
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what did you think of him in season 1 when he decided
"i just killed many innocent people, destroyed everything my step sister (who i loved) stood for and made sure she'd forever be remembered as a monster, took all my friends as hostages and rallied an entire nation behind me for a fight that would determine the fate a hundred million people"
Whoa, whoa. Whoa. Let's just hold on a second here. What he did to Euphie was an accident. He never meant for it to happen. He also made Ashford Academy their main base so he could keep an eye on Nunnally and all his friends so he could keep them safe.

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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
Lelouch was a very flawed, very complicated character, that's what's do good about him. Nobody wants to watch about a perfect character who makes all the right decisions all the time, because that's boring as fuck.
This. This so much.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:10   Link #6897
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Lelouch has issues. This can sum up a lot of his behaviour very easily.

No one's claimed that Lelouch did things right all the time. It's made very clear that Lelouch's weakness is Nunnally (and Suzaku, actually). He might be smart, but when Nunnally's in danger, that overrides everything, so he panics and just does whatever's best to save her, to hell with everything else. I'm sure that if Lelouch had a choice to save a hundred people or Nunnally, he'd pick Nunnally after barely a moments thought.

Nobody wants to watch about a perfect character who makes all the right decisions all the time, because that's boring as fuck.
This.


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in other words, give up on Z-R and render all the deaths he caused moot
that would be in character for Lelouch (he did it in season 1)
and would have ended the show with him being the biggest hypocrite in anime
but it would have a better then just giving him a free pass and not having him choose between his plan and Nunnaly through plot magic
Again, Nunnally opening her eyes was not necessary for Lelouch to get around killing her.

Aside from that, Lelouch had changed, and this was shown by how he could accept that Nunnally would be able to take care of herself in the future. It would have been boring as hell if he'd just dropped it all there and only repeated history - I prefer an "easy way out" for him to that any day, thanks.
You can disagree, of course, but at least take it to an other thread if it's about the writing rather than Lelouch. Pretty much everything that didn't happen would have changed the viewers' perception of him - but that's what fanfiction is for.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:13   Link #6898
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Whoa, whoa. Whoa. Let's just hold on a second here. What he did to Euphie was an accident. He never meant for it to happen. He also made Ashford Academy their main base so he could keep an eye on Nunnally and all his friends so he could keep them safe.
irrelevent
it happened, she died, and her death, just like the deaths of the thousands of people who died in the SAZ because of his "mistake" could not be changed
the REASON he blamed the whole thing on euphie and rallied people behind him using this hate of her, is exactly BECAUSE he knew that if he doesn't do this, then her death, and the deaths of all the people in the SAZ would be in vain

but by deciding to ditch it all and go after Nunnaly, he renders their deaths completely pointless


Quote:
This. This so much.
if he's a flawed character, then the plot shouldn't bend over backwards to HIDE that fact
he should have been forced to choose between Nunnaly and his plan, just like in season 1

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Again, Nunnally opening her eyes was not necessary for Lelouch to get around killing her.

Aside from that, Lelouch had changed, and this was shown by how he could accept that Nunnally would be able to take care of herself in the future. It would have been boring as hell if he'd just dropped it all there and only repeated history - I prefer an "easy way out" for him to that any day, thanks.
if he had changed, he should have been shown to have changed by facing the exact same choice he had in season 1, and choosing the good of the many over the life of his little sister
he would have needed to decide "repeat history, or do what needs to be done for what he believes to be the good of the world"
the fact that he didn't NEED to make that choice is what pissed me off
its a cop out, and its exactly what you called it
an easy way out
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:21   Link #6899
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if he had changed, he should have been shown to have changed by facing the exact same choice he had in season 1, and choosing the good of the many over the life of his little sister
he would have needed to decide "repeat history, or do what needs to be done for what he believes to be the good of the world"
the fact that he didn't NEED to make that choice is what pissed me off
its a cop out, and its exactly what you called it
an easy way out
Lelouch would have changed from a guy with a sister complex to a second Schneizel. Yay.

Nope, I like the scene just the way it is. He would not have been forced to choose, because he could just have manipulated Nunnally with words. It would simply have taken more screen-time.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:23   Link #6900
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
irrelevent
it happened, she died, and her death, just like the deaths of the thousands of people who died in the SAZ because of his "mistake" could not be changed
the REASON he blamed the whole thing on euphie and rallied people behind him using this hate of her, is exactly BECAUSE he knew that if he doesn't do this, then her death, and the deaths of all the people in the SAZ would be in vain

but by deciding to ditch it all and go after Nunnaly, he renders their deaths completely pointless
Why on earth is mistake in quotations? It was a complete accident. And as I've said before, Lelouch was far from perfect. It was the wrong decision to make, but it was perfectly in character.


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if he's a flawed character, then the plot shouldn't bend over backwards to HIDE that fact
He shot his brother in the head in the second episode, and gets called out on being too ruthless on a regular basis. Just because he was still sympathetic is hardly the same thing as trying to portray him as a saint. The show didn't hide anything.

Quote:
he should have been forced to choose between Nunnaly and his plan, just like in season 1
And that's a matter of opinion.
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