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Old 2010-06-14, 00:43   Link #7241
Xander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
It's not that he saw himself as unworthy, but that he had given up on life following R2 19. As I've said before, if the former truly were the case, he missed a few spots.
The thing is, Lelouch doesn't have just one monolithic thought in mind. There are multiple motivations involved in his decision, which aren't necessarily contradictory (although they can be, which is actually fairly realistic) as much as they are complementary. I believe this has been my position for some time.

In other words, one thought doesn't go against the other...particularly when they all work towards the same end goal.

That's also why I don't think we should take any particular statement the creators have made or anything provided by the official materials as the final (and only) word, but rather as highlighting different parts of a larger puzzle. Ideally, everything should be taken into consideration...not treated as a bunch of mutually exclusive ideas existing in total isolation. After all, there is always some room for debate and interpretation. Even the creators and magazines tell us different things on occasion.

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Had the betrayal not happened, or at least Nunnally's apparent death, Lelouch wouldn't have went through what was even more destructive than anything he had done up to that point.
That's rather likely, but even before those events there was a growing sense that Lelouch was crawling towards his potential doom and you can't deny a part of his nature was already self-destructive (or at least self-loathing). Depending on the circumstances, I feel that he could have chosen to isolate himself from the world or at least from those closest to him, despite his toying with the fragile illusion of returning to Ashford one day. Or, if nothing else, he would be isolated by Geass itself.
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Old 2010-06-14, 01:26   Link #7242
Gordy Lechance
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In the exact Episode where Nina's Fleya nukes the ass of Tokyo's invaders (whose racism and need to be the center of everything ironically saved the Japanese citizens they literally marginalized to Tokyo's outer fringes), the top priority in Lelouch's mind was:

I now have to find a country to escape to that will grant Nunnally and myself amnesty.


NOT defeating Britania, much less giving Japan her name and dignity back.

Bears worth repeating: selfish demon.
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Old 2010-06-14, 03:40   Link #7243
azul120
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Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post
In the exact Episode where Nina's Fleya nukes the ass of Tokyo's invaders (whose racism and need to be the center of everything ironically saved the Japanese citizens they literally marginalized to Tokyo's outer fringes), the top priority in Lelouch's mind was:

I now have to find a country to escape to that will grant Nunnally and myself amnesty.


NOT defeating Britania, much less giving Japan her name and dignity back.

Bears worth repeating: selfish demon.
That's a bit much.

He lost his composure after thinking he lost Nunnally, one of his only true things in life. That was to be expected. He did regain his resolve one last time when Kallen came to see him.
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Old 2010-06-14, 04:02   Link #7244
Gordy Lechance
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That's a bit much.

He lost his composure after thinking he lost Nunnally, one of his only true things in life. That was to be expected. He did regain his resolve one last time when Kallen came to see him.
Darn, gotta check my grammar.

I meant when Nunnally-chan was still alive, fleeing to a safe country with her was still his priority numero uno, not defeating Britania. Hence still quite selfish even BEFORE her supposed death.

Pardon the misunderstanding.
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Old 2010-06-14, 10:05   Link #7245
Kittenlady
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Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post

I now have to find a country to escape to that will grant Nunnally and myself amnesty.


NOT defeating Britania, much less giving Japan her name and dignity back.

Bears worth repeating: selfish demon.
If they get their country back in the process, who cares? No matter what his priorities were, he was still the best they were gonna get, and beggers can't be choosers.

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Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post
Darn, gotta check my grammar.

I meant when Nunnally-chan was still alive, fleeing to a safe country with her was still his priority numero uno, not defeating Britania. Hence still quite selfish even BEFORE her supposed death.

Pardon the misunderstanding.
Wanting to make a world where someone other than you can be happy is selfish? Really?

One of the main parts of Lelouch's character is him struggling to choose between his selfish motavation (revenge against Britannia) and the selfless one (a better world for Nunnally, and, consequently, everyone else). What's really quite tragic is that, even after he thought Nunnally had died, he was still willing to carry on and create that 'perfect world'.

Then the Black Knights betrayed him. The bastards.




Onto something else, one thing I've noticed about anytime someone tries to paint Lelouch in the dark (or any character, really) they never use both motivation and actions. If he does something with positive results "Oh but he only did it for revenge", if something goes wrong when he was really trying to do something good "omg look what he's done the evil bastard". Is it really that hard to look at the whole character rather than just the parts you want to see?

And really, as has already been pointed out, people need to stop trying to push all the characters into good and evil roles. It doesn't work that way.

Last edited by Kittenlady; 2010-06-14 at 10:53.
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Old 2010-06-14, 10:49   Link #7246
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Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post
Darn, gotta check my grammar.

I meant when Nunnally-chan was still alive, fleeing to a safe country with her was still his priority numero uno, not defeating Britania. Hence still quite selfish even BEFORE her supposed death.

Pardon the misunderstanding.
No it wasn't. Defeating Britannia was always a priority on some level, regardless of his motivations, be they for simply revenge, protecting Nunnally, or also the world itself.

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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
Wanting to make a world where someone other than you can be happy is selfish? Really?

One of the main parts of Lelouch's character is him struggling to choose between his selfish motavation (revenge against Britannia) and the selfless one (a better world for Nunnally, and, consequently, everyone else). What's really quite tragic is that, even after he thought Nunnally had died, he was still willing to carry on and create that 'perfect world'.

Then the Black Knights betrayed him. The bastards.




Onto something else, one thing I've noticed about anytime someone tries to paint Lelouch in the dark (or any character, really) they never use both motivation and actions. If he does something with positive results "Oh but he only did it for revenge", if something goes wrong when he was really trying to do something good "omg look what he's done the evil bastard". Is it really that hard to look at the whole character rather than just the parts you want to se.

And really, as has already been pointed out, people need to stop trying to push all the characters into good and evil roles. It doesn't work that way.
Yeah. That's where Lelouch falls into Ron the Death Eater territory at times.
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Old 2010-07-17, 04:25   Link #7247
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Actually, the Mutuality stories indicate that Lelouch felt the need to take responsibility for his actions and the blood he shed by giving up his own life, and Okouchi himself said that ZR can be explained by Lelouch's "pride".

I believe Lelouch didn't want to die any more than Suzaku wanted to live - the desire was there, but not overwhelming, and both of them were giving up something that, to them, was important. I also believe that Lelouch saying that living on "just wouldn't feel right" suggests that in a way, he really felt unworthy, though probably not in the sense that he thought the world would be better of without him.

It's all right to assume that Zero Requiem wouldn't have happened without the Black Knights' betrayal - in fact, I think it makes sense under the given circumstances. However, it's by no means a fact that Lelouch's main motive for ZR was him being suicidal.
The Zero Requiem was actually triggered by Shirley's death. This led Lelouch to commit mass murder on the Geass Cult, which caused the BK to question his actions. And this is similar to what Clovis committed when he order the execution of innocent civilians in the Shinjuku Ghetto in season one. Thus, the events led to the BK to betray Lelouch.
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Old 2010-07-17, 13:33   Link #7248
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Actually, the Geass Cult was just a piece of the puzzle. The bulk of it was Schneizel and his case against Lelouch, and aggravatingly enough, Ohgi and Villetta coming in with that "evidence" that resulted Lelouch in getting betrayed and, on top of everything else he lost (or thought he did, in the case of Nunnally simply in hiding) going astray once and for all.
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Old 2010-07-17, 15:36   Link #7249
Master Knight DH
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Whoops. Wrong topic.

Last edited by Master Knight DH; 2010-07-17 at 15:46. Reason: Meant to post this on the generic discussion.
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Old 2010-12-14, 08:48   Link #7250
KyokoAishiteru
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
Then the Black Knights betrayed him. The bastards.
Ugh, I hate 'em bitches. I guess in the end they're ALL completely clueless (except Kallen) about Lelouch's oh-so-noble sacrifice after all.


Lelouch lives! <3
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"Happiness is like glass. It may be all around you, yet be invisible. But if you change your angle of viewing a little, then it will reflect light more beautifully than any other object around you."

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Old 2010-12-18, 15:07   Link #7251
Lelouch-Vi-Britannia
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I was killed?

I think Lelouch should've been like alive.
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Old 2010-12-18, 20:58   Link #7252
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Originally Posted by Lelouch-Vi-Britannia View Post
I was killed?

I think Lelouch should've been like alive.
You don't deserve to live Lelouch!

No but honestly, Lelouch's redemption of sacrificing himself for the sake of a better world is preposterous imo. Sooner or later, history will repeat itself and boom, Lelouch's efforts are completely useless.

I rather he'd live and help reform the world into the generic 'utopia' for as long as possible. That would've at least kept a haven environment for a elongated period of time, rather then the shifty one created upon his death.
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Old 2010-12-18, 21:16   Link #7253
azul120
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Agreed.

Not to mention the idea of what he did as redemption was self-contradictory from the get-go, as it involved him doing stuff even worse than anything he did prior.
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Old 2010-12-19, 00:30   Link #7254
Sol Falling
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Sooner or later, history will repeat itself and boom, Lelouch's efforts are completely useless.
"Sooner or later, human civilization will disappear into the emptiness of the universe and boom, the efforts of everyone ever are completely useless."

lol, just felt like saying that. But yeah, taking Lelouch's actions from a plain historical or political perspective of 'is peace forever achieved?' is pretty pointless. Zero Re:quiem, on a certain level, was a personal wish of Lelouch's: to take in all the hatred of the world upon himself so that he could be absolved of all the false hatred he had pushed onto others (Euphie, etc; where Lelouch used to use his masks and lies to stir up hatred for his own advantage, with Zero Re:quiem Lelouch used lies to gather hatred upon himself for the sake of the world). That means that alternate options are irrelevant; this was what Lelouchh wanted to do. On the second, more important level: the importance of Lelouch's actions lies not in the direct effect it has on world stability, but the message it communicates to each of the world's citizens personally. Zero Re:quiem, moreso than establishing peace, instills a desire for peace; the answer is, even if an isolated number of individuals decide to try to ruin things for everybody, it is this desire for peace which will ultimately guide the people and allow them to take hold of their own destiny for the world (if peace in itself is the highest ideal, then there was never any reason to reject Charles or Schniezel).
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Old 2010-12-19, 01:15   Link #7255
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It's more like him giving up all hope of life after Nunnally had apparently died, and the Black Knights doublecrossed him. Let's not forget that mere episodes before that, he had just established the UFN and was one step closer to the end of his prior endgame - free all the areas, rescue Nunnally, and topple the Britannian government.
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Old 2010-12-19, 02:49   Link #7256
Sol Falling
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It's more like him giving up all hope of life after Nunnally had apparently died, and the Black Knights doublecrossed him. Let's not forget that mere episodes before that, he had just established the UFN and was one step closer to the end of his prior endgame - free all the areas, rescue Nunnally, and topple the Britannian government.
I think Lelouch's motivations involved more conscience than that. Prior to meeting Charles at the Thought Elevator, Lelouch had been driven onward always solely by thoughts of Nunally's happiness and his personal revenge. He never acted for the sake of the world because his own personal directives were always much stronger. Nunally's apparent death and Charles greater goal made Lelouch realize that the world wasn't just about him, that his personal goals weren't the only things that mattered. In stepping up to oppose Charles on idealogical grounds Lelouch took up a responsibility to strive not just for the happiness of himself or those he cared about, but the world at large as well.

Zero Re:quiem is representative of Lelouch's selfless wish for the world, where Lelouch pushed all the world's hatred and death upon himself in order for others to be happy. This contrasts with Lelouch's previous plans which were designed to push hatred and death onto others, not for any greater good but in order to create a world where he himself (or by proxy, Nunally) could be happy.

Zero Re:quiem was the ultimate act of Lelouch taking responsibility for his lies. Charles said lies were unnecessary things driven by self-interest which only wrecked shit up, i.e. basically Lelouch's life up to then. To prove him wrong, and give his existence any last vestige of meaning, Lelouch had to create a lie which only helped others and not himself.
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Old 2010-12-19, 04:28   Link #7257
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I think Lelouch's motivations involved more conscience than that. Prior to meeting Charles at the Thought Elevator, Lelouch had been driven onward always solely by thoughts of Nunally's happiness and his personal revenge. He never acted for the sake of the world because his own personal directives were always much stronger. Nunally's apparent death and Charles greater goal made Lelouch realize that the world wasn't just about him, that his personal goals weren't the only things that mattered. In stepping up to oppose Charles on idealogical grounds Lelouch took up a responsibility to strive not just for the happiness of himself or those he cared about, but the world at large as well.

Zero Re:quiem is representative of Lelouch's selfless wish for the world, where Lelouch pushed all the world's hatred and death upon himself in order for others to be happy. This contrasts with Lelouch's previous plans which were designed to push hatred and death onto others, not for any greater good but in order to create a world where he himself (or by proxy, Nunally) could be happy.

Zero Re:quiem was the ultimate act of Lelouch taking responsibility for his lies. Charles said lies were unnecessary things driven by self-interest which only wrecked shit up, i.e. basically Lelouch's life up to then. To prove him wrong, and give his existence any last vestige of meaning, Lelouch had to create a lie which only helped others and not himself.
A nice idea on paper, but it's every bit as flawed as, say, communism, because people are too fickle and ever changing in nature to keep their hatred focused on one thing. Not to mention that it flies in the face of the idea of individualism of human nature.

And it wasn't solely because of Nunnally's happiness or his revenge that he had been driven forward. Remember Turn 7?

And of course, he had to do worse things than ever as part of Zero Requiem. Worse things than he had ever did earlier on in the series. Worse things than Charles. And worse things than Schneizel, too. If he wanted to atone, he could have done it by living on to work for peace.

Again, his endgame prior to ZR was to free the areas and conquer the Britannian government, having it replaced with something more just. Living in the better world with Nunnally was just a bonus, though certainly a motivating one, and settling the score with his dad and finding out what happened to Marianne were personal asides.

Besides, if he wanted to focus everyone's hatred on one person, either one of those two would have sufficed. But no. With no one left to turn to (Shirley dead, Nunnally apparently dead, Kallen basically off-limits because of the Black Knights' paranoia), Lelouch basically had a death wish that was clear from Turn 20 onward.

On top of that, the ZR was a luck-based mission, because of two things: Kallen became an enemy, and he had to reach Schneizel from his heavily shielded fortress of doom. He could have possibly went over with Suzaku to face him at Cambodia or wherever he was, instead of waiting a month and just taking over the Britannian throne.

ZR was representative of his youthful naivete that still existed, and his inability to cope with his demons any longer.
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Old 2010-12-19, 10:13   Link #7258
Hsadman
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
"Sooner or later, human civilization will disappear into the emptiness of the universe and boom, the efforts of everyone ever are completely useless."

lol, just felt like saying that. But yeah, taking Lelouch's actions from a plain historical or political perspective of 'is peace forever achieved?' is pretty pointless. Zero Re:quiem, on a certain level, was a personal wish of Lelouch's: to take in all the hatred of the world upon himself so that he could be absolved of all the false hatred he had pushed onto others (Euphie, etc; where Lelouch used to use his masks and lies to stir up hatred for his own advantage, with Zero Re:quiem Lelouch used lies to gather hatred upon himself for the sake of the world). That means that alternate options are irrelevant; this was what Lelouchh wanted to do. On the second, more important level: the importance of Lelouch's actions lies not in the direct effect it has on world stability, but the message it communicates to each of the world's citizens personally. Zero Re:quiem, moreso than [establishing peace, instills a desire for peace; the answer is, even if an isolated number of individuals decide to try to ruin things for everybody, it is this desire for peace which will ultimately guide the people and allow them to take hold of their own destiny for the world (if peace in itself is the highest ideal, then there was never any reason to reject Charles or Schniezel).
Well, I'll have to disagree. I don't mean to project the thought that peace is forever stable and maintainable, but it can be so for a notable period of time.

Think of it this way, there's a dictator. But he's a nice dictator, he believes in equality and universal prosperity, and forges his country to be so. Then after that's achieved, he gets shot in the face, because that's what happens to good people.

Now, since he's gone, the peace is disturbed. So, would the people be more motivated in regaining the lost peace? Rather then pursuing a peace they've never tasted?

The world of Code Geass hasn't had 'peace', that's an ideal they pursue but have never held. You can't truly value something if you've never had it.

A bit of a break off from "You never know what you have, until it's gone."

So if Lelouch actually fixed the world instead of offing himself. He could've granted peace to the world, which could of course collapse at any given time. If so, the people would have a greater urge to regain the lost peace, since they already hold knowledge of what it is.

Rather than in the reality, where people are seeking peace, but have never had it. The motivation for doing so isn't anywhere near the motivation which would of been constant if Lelouch actually took care of the world.

Unfortunately, I have to view ZR as selfish. It's his deathwish, I don't think he really cared for the world at the point. Lelouch is smart enough to acknowledge that this installment of peace will never last. Also, he could've easily redirected that very same hatred to any other individual, he had several options but decided to choose himself, as a resolve.

To add, people are quite conflicting in views. Take Hitler for example. Us Westerners learn that Hitler is evil blah blah blah. But the reality is that he yanked his country out of a recession, and almost conquered the fucking world. We all thought killing Hitler would lead to peace, but did it? Not in the least, the Cold War started right after. Now some people say Hitler would've created a better world, others say no. People can't align completely ever, there will always be an amount contradicting to others.

So to bring this into Code Geass, some people will say, Lelouch was right, and he was making the world 'better'. Others will say, hell no, he's a 'tyrant'. And that in itself will create another conflict, hence destroying said installment for peace. Because it's something that 'could've' happened, but hasn't happened.

But even if Lelouch lived, I still fail to see an eternal peace, but it would be longer lasting then whatever ZR created. That's why I prefer Lelouch's life over his death, and see ZR as a selfish wish in contrast to a selfless one.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:04   Link #7259
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Originally Posted by Hsadman View Post
Unfortunately, I have to view ZR as selfish. It's his deathwish, I don't think he really cared for the world at the point. Lelouch is smart enough to acknowledge that this installment of peace will never last. Also, he could've easily redirected that very same hatred to any other individual, he had several options but decided to choose himself, as a resolve.
It is a major mistake to think anything in this series was ever "for the people". By the end of the day, all the major characters had their own selfish objectives and all the rest just followed.

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To add, people are quite conflicting in views. Take Hitler for example. Us Westerners learn that Hitler is evil blah blah blah. But the reality is that he yanked his country out of a recession, and almost conquered the fucking world. We all thought killing Hitler would lead to peace, but did it? Not in the least, the Cold War started right after. Now some people say Hitler would've created a better world, others say no. People can't align completely ever, there will always be an amount contradicting to others.
Hitler is indeed an uglier Lelouch. But remember, all the German people wanted the same thing he did, so he just took advantage of their desires to get where he got. Lelouch took advantage of only the rebelion part of Japan. Most others were already accepting their lives as Elevens, so it's not the same thing. If Zero didn't have Geass he wouldn't get too far because he didn't convince his victims like Hitler. He brainwashed them. Literaly; not after a decade of propaganda as the Nazis did.

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So to bring this into Code Geass, some people will say, Lelouch was right, and he was making the world 'better'. Others will say, hell no, he's a 'tyrant'. And that in itself will create another conflict, hence destroying said installment for peace. Because it's something that 'could've' happened, but hasn't happened.
Having various beliefs about the same thing is what makes us humans not-robots. Conflict is our natural way of showing our freedom to think differently and demand more than what we get.
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Old 2010-12-19, 16:18   Link #7260
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Hitler is indeed an uglier Lelouch. But remember, all the German people wanted the same thing he did, so he just took advantage of their desires to get where he got. Lelouch took advantage of only the rebelion part of Japan. Most others were already accepting their lives as Elevens, so it's not the same thing. If Zero didn't have Geass he wouldn't get too far because he didn't convince his victims like Hitler. He brainwashed them. Literaly; not after a decade of propaganda as the Nazis did.
So you're comparing Lelouch's geass to Hitler's propaganda. Oooooookay.

And people were accepting their lives as Elevens because they knew nothing could stand up to Britannia, until Lelouch came along.
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