AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-12-19, 17:14   Link #7261
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
A nice idea on paper, but it's every bit as flawed as, say, communism, because people are too fickle and ever changing in nature to keep their hatred focused on one thing. Not to mention that it flies in the face of the idea of individualism of human nature.
You are kinda wandering here. Which idea are you talking about? My post was about Lelouch's motivations, not the actual results of them. Lelouch had to choose Zero Re:quiem because he rejected Charles plan to erase lies for the good of humanity. Since Lelouch's whole life up till that point had been basically harmful lies, the only way he could justify his defiance of his father and all the harm he'd caused before would be to create a good lie which only benefited other people. To become an 'honest ruler' or something like that and live on guiding his country was impossible, because becoming honest would basically be admitting that his deceitful and treacherous methods in the past were wrong and that Charles was right to try to eliminate lies in the first place.

Quote:
And it wasn't solely because of Nunnally's happiness or his revenge that he had been driven forward. Remember Turn 7?
Turn 7 was about Lelouch's own happiness, but that didn't make much difference in the end. Actually, the conclusion of that episode always bothered me before but now I see that all Turn 7 amounted to was another reason for Lelouch to keep lying and pretending to be a hero of justice as Zero, when in fact achieving personal happiness by those means was impossible in the first place.

Quote:
And of course, he had to do worse things than ever as part of Zero Requiem. Worse things than he had ever did earlier on in the series. Worse things than Charles. And worse things than Schneizel, too. If he wanted to atone, he could have done it by living on to work for peace.
The specific sin Lelouch was atoning for was Euphie. It was not the war crimes or massacring of innocents in themselves, but rather taking advantage of the hatred those actioms generated by pushing it onto an innocent person i.e. lying. The only way to atone for pushing that degree of blame onto someone else would be to take an equal or greater amount of blame onto himself.

Quote:
Again, his endgame prior to ZR was to free the areas and conquer the Britannian government, having it replaced with something more just. Living in the better world with Nunnally was just a bonus, though certainly a motivating one, and settling the score with his dad and finding out what happened to Marianne were personal asides.

Besides, if he wanted to focus everyone's hatred on one person, either one of those two would have sufficed. But no. With no one left to turn to (Shirley dead, Nunnally apparently dead, Kallen basically off-limits because of the Black Knights' paranoia), Lelouch basically had a death wish that was clear from Turn 20 onward.

On top of that, the ZR was a luck-based mission, because of two things: Kallen became an enemy, and he had to reach Schneizel from his heavily shielded fortress of doom. He could have possibly went over with Suzaku to face him at Cambodia or wherever he was, instead of waiting a month and just taking over the Britannian throne.
Most of this is pretty irrelevant. Lelouch's 'endgame' failed because his lie collapsed upon itself. Everybody found out he wasn't a hero of justice. That people lost faith in him when this truth came out isn't be anybody's fault but his own, for promoting a lie in the first place.

That peace could have been achieved some other way or that his plan wasn't %100 guaranteed successful are besides the point. What was important to Lelouch wasn't the peace itself (i.e., the 'ends' or 'results'). What Lelouch cared most about was the way he did it, i.e. the means/methods: Lelouch needed to do it by making a lie, since that was what he had fought Charles over; and Lelouch needed to make up for what his lie had done to Euphie's memory, since that was what he had promised Suzaku. If Lelouch couldn't achieve peace without accomplishing those things, then his existence/resistance would have been meaningless, and he should have just let Suzaku kill him and handed the fate of the world over to Charles or Schniezel because he was no better than them in the first place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hsadman View Post
Well, I'll have to disagree. I don't mean to project the thought that peace is forever stable and maintainable, but it can be so for a notable period of time.

Think of it this way, there's a dictator. But he's a nice dictator, he believes in equality and universal prosperity, and forges his country to be so. Then after that's achieved, he gets shot in the face, because that's what happens to good people.

Now, since he's gone, the peace is disturbed. So, would the people be more motivated in regaining the lost peace? Rather then pursuing a peace they've never tasted?

The world of Code Geass hasn't had 'peace', that's an ideal they pursue but have never held. You can't truly value something if you've never had it.

A bit of a break off from "You never know what you have, until it's gone."

So if Lelouch actually fixed the world instead of offing himself. He could've granted peace to the world, which could of course collapse at any given time. If so, the people would have a greater urge to regain the lost peace, since they already hold knowledge of what it is.

Rather than in the reality, where people are seeking peace, but have never had it. The motivation for doing so isn't anywhere near the motivation which would of been constant if Lelouch actually took care of the world.

Unfortunately, I have to view ZR as selfish. It's his deathwish, I don't think he really cared for the world at the point. Lelouch is smart enough to acknowledge that this installment of peace will never last. Also, he could've easily redirected that very same hatred to any other individual, he had several options but decided to choose himself, as a resolve.

To add, people are quite conflicting in views. Take Hitler for example. Us Westerners learn that Hitler is evil blah blah blah. But the reality is that he yanked his country out of a recession, and almost conquered the fucking world. We all thought killing Hitler would lead to peace, but did it? Not in the least, the Cold War started right after. Now some people say Hitler would've created a better world, others say no. People can't align completely ever, there will always be an amount contradicting to others.

So to bring this into Code Geass, some people will say, Lelouch was right, and he was making the world 'better'. Others will say, hell no, he's a 'tyrant'. And that in itself will create another conflict, hence destroying said installment for peace. Because it's something that 'could've' happened, but hasn't happened.

But even if Lelouch lived, I still fail to see an eternal peace, but it would be longer lasting then whatever ZR created. That's why I prefer Lelouch's life over his death, and see ZR as a selfish wish in contrast to a selfless one.
We seem to be haphazardly throwing in historical examples, so let me provide a similar analogy for the peace created by Zero Re:quiem. You said that WWII didn't actually result in peace afterwards, because the Cold War erupted right after. However, my emphasis would instead be on the fact that the Cold War never erupted into all out war. Certainly at least some part of that must be down to the desire for peace the world's citizens felt after WWII. Zero Re:quiem basically works the same way: for the people in Code Geass's universe, Lelouch's reign would basically be a simulation of all the horrors of WWII. Now, add on top of that the fact that there is no communism/capitalism split, that every country got wrecked and conquered so that there is no "oh shit, Russia's got tens of millions of people in its army" or "oh shit, the US has got atom bombs flying around", and you don't even got a Cold War either. This is in all honesty a pretty stable political situation. I mean, even at minimum you could consider it as stable as the post WWII period, and that gave us, what? 20-30 years? before any real fighting broke out again. I'd say good enough.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-19, 19:33   Link #7262
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You are kinda wandering here. Which idea are you talking about? My post was about Lelouch's motivations, not the actual results of them. Lelouch had to choose Zero Re:quiem because he rejected Charles plan to erase lies for the good of humanity. Since Lelouch's whole life up till that point had been basically harmful lies, the only way he could justify his defiance of his father and all the harm he'd caused before would be to create a good lie which only benefited other people. To become an 'honest ruler' or something like that and live on guiding his country was impossible, because becoming honest would basically be admitting that his deceitful and treacherous methods in the past were wrong and that Charles was right to try to eliminate lies in the first place.
Incorrect. Lelouch merely acknowledged the existence of lies as an irreconcilable facet of human nature.

And the fact is that that he did it as another lie was yet another example of his tragic overreliance on lying. Like when he even lied to Suzaku about Euphy, which of course led to Schneizel using it against him to turn the Black Knights on him. Or Nunnally calling Suzaku a liar, just like Lelouch, when Suzaku would lie about Lelouch to Nunnally throughout the second season, and not let her feel his hand. Or, in his poem, when Suzaku said that had there been no lies, their Ashford days would have been the happiest. And finally of course, during the last picture drama, Suzaku as Zero lamenting that Lelouch promised he would be back at Ashford for fireworks, but that turned out to be another lie.

The point being that too many lies, especially towards loved ones, are hurtful. Even the show itself in all of its botched execution sort of got that across, even if you had to be listening.

And again, in the case of the lie here, the Zero Requiem, can you honestly say that whatever he did, which including but not limited to, geassing his troops into total obedience and making them not only faceless mooks, but also meat shields, as well as blowing up Mt. Fuji and depleting most of the sakuradite and destroying much of Japan in the process, and assassinating many rebels, was better than the honest alternative?

Quote:
Turn 7 was about Lelouch's own happiness, but that didn't make much difference in the end. Actually, the conclusion of that episode always bothered me before but now I see that all Turn 7 amounted to was another reason for Lelouch to keep lying and pretending to be a hero of justice as Zero, when in fact achieving personal happiness by those means was impossible in the first place.
Impossible? Only if you consider Lelouch's status as a Cosmic Plaything. Besides, turn 7 was about everyone. Lelouch's happiness just happened to be tied into that of everyone else having a fair world.

Quote:
The specific sin Lelouch was atoning for was Euphie. It was not the war crimes or massacring of innocents in themselves, but rather taking advantage of the hatred those actioms generated by pushing it onto an innocent person i.e. lying. The only way to atone for pushing that degree of blame onto someone else would be to take an equal or greater amount of blame onto himself.
Euphie would never have wanted a bigger massacre as coverup. She would have rather had Lelouch do what she herself wanted to: be a good leader. That would have been true atonement. Besides, Lelouch had little choice given the unfortunate circumstances.

Quote:
Most of this is pretty irrelevant. Lelouch's 'endgame' failed because his lie collapsed upon itself. Everybody found out he wasn't a hero of justice. That people lost faith in him when this truth came out isn't be anybody's fault but his own, for promoting a lie in the first place.
You forget: a lot of it was Schneizel fuddling with the truth, and of course, Ohgi and Villetta coming in at the most inopportune moment. That betrayal had Kangaroo Court written all over it.

Not to mention that, Geass Cult massacre nonwithstanding, he had already Become the Mask, in that he averted another SAZ massacre, had China freed from the corrupt Eunuchs and had an international body formed, and a real shot at freeing the rest of the world from Britannia's iron grip. And now the Black Knights were quite possibly ready to abandon it for Japan. Lelouch may have always been an anti-hero, but he never lied about getting results, and how far he'd have to go in the face of the tyrannical Britannia.

Quote:
That peace could have been achieved some other way or that his plan wasn't %100 guaranteed successful are besides the point. What was important to Lelouch wasn't the peace itself (i.e., the 'ends' or 'results'). What Lelouch cared most about was the way he did it, i.e. the means/methods: Lelouch needed to do it by making a lie, since that was what he had fought Charles over; and Lelouch needed to make up for what his lie had done to Euphie's memory, since that was what he had promised Suzaku. If Lelouch couldn't achieve peace without accomplishing those things, then his existence/resistance would have been meaningless, and he should have just let Suzaku kill him and handed the fate of the world over to Charles or Schniezel because he was no better than them in the first place.
Again, Lelouch should have learned that the truth will set you free every once in awhile, and that he would have done a better job of honoring Euphie's memory by being an agent of peace.

Quote:
We seem to be haphazardly throwing in historical examples, so let me provide a similar analogy for the peace created by Zero Re:quiem. You said that WWII didn't actually result in peace afterwards, because the Cold War erupted right after. However, my emphasis would instead be on the fact that the Cold War never erupted into all out war. Certainly at least some part of that must be down to the desire for peace the world's citizens felt after WWII. Zero Re:quiem basically works the same way: for the people in Code Geass's universe, Lelouch's reign would basically be a simulation of all the horrors of WWII. Now, add on top of that the fact that there is no communism/capitalism split, that every country got wrecked and conquered so that there is no "oh shit, Russia's got tens of millions of people in its army" or "oh shit, the US has got atom bombs flying around", and you don't even got a Cold War either. This is in all honesty a pretty stable political situation. I mean, even at minimum you could consider it as stable as the post WWII period, and that gave us, what? 20-30 years? before any real fighting broke out again. I'd say good enough.
Perhaps, but considering the destruction and loss of life that took place during the Zero Requiem, not to mention Lelouch himself, who would be more useful to the world alive and living on to work for peace? I'd be willing to call that a net loss.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 02:42   Link #7263
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Incorrect. Lelouch merely acknowledged the existence of lies as an irreconcilable facet of human nature.
It wasn't though. Charles' Ragnorok Connection presented a real possibility of getting rid of lies altogether.

Quote:
And the fact is that that he did it as another lie was yet another example of his tragic overreliance on lying. Like when he even lied to Suzaku about Euphy, which of course led to Schneizel using it against him to turn the Black Knights on him. Or Nunnally calling Suzaku a liar, just like Lelouch, when Suzaku would lie about Lelouch to Nunnally throughout the second season, and not let her feel his hand. Or, in his poem, when Suzaku said that had there been no lies, their Ashford days would have been the happiest. And finally of course, during the last picture drama, Suzaku as Zero lamenting that Lelouch promised he would be back at Ashford for fireworks, but that turned out to be another lie.

The point being that too many lies, especially towards loved ones, are hurtful. Even the show itself in all of its botched execution sort of got that across, even if you had to be listening.

And again, in the case of the lie here, the Zero Requiem, can you honestly say that whatever he did, which including but not limited to, geassing his troops into total obedience and making them not only faceless mooks, but also meat shields, as well as blowing up Mt. Fuji and depleting most of the sakuradite and destroying much of Japan in the process, and assassinating many rebels, was better than the honest alternative?
I agree that Zero Re:quiem and basically the entire series is pretty much about Lelouch's tragic overreliance on lying. Since his hated enemy was Charles, who represented honesty instead, Lelouch had no choice to justify his existence and all his past actions except to keep on lying. If honesty was the answer, then Lelouch would have had to admit that Charles was right and that his past struggles were meaningless, and that was something Lelouch just couldn't do.

Quote:
Impossible? Only if you consider Lelouch's status as a Cosmic Plaything. Besides, turn 7 was about everyone. Lelouch's happiness just happened to be tied into that of everyone else having a fair world.
Not really. As you stated perfectly above, lying towards your loved ones is a perfect way to botch any chance of achieving personal happiness. Lelouch used Turn 7 to reassess his ends (everybody/his own happiness versus Nunally's alone), but not his methods (lying like a bastard as Zero in order to fuck up Britannia, who incidentally many of those friends whose happiness he wanted had close associations with), but his methods were always the real problem.

Quote:
Euphie would never have wanted a bigger massacre as coverup. She would have rather had Lelouch do what she herself wanted to: be a good leader. That would have been true atonement. Besides, Lelouch had little choice given the unfortunate circumstances.
There is never 'no choice but to lie'. The truth might hurt to admit, but it is still the actual reality. To sacrifice other people by saying its for the greater good is never good enough; there will always be those affected who will say it just wasn't worth it. Euphie's feelings are not really relevant to the matter: it was Suzaku whose dreams had been trampled and stepped on; Suzaku whose feelings were saved by Lelouch getting what he deserved.

Quote:
You forget: a lot of it was Schneizel fuddling with the truth, and of course, Ohgi and Villetta coming in at the most inopportune moment. That betrayal had Kangaroo Court written all over it.

Not to mention that, Geass Cult massacre nonwithstanding, he had already Become the Mask, in that he averted another SAZ massacre, had China freed from the corrupt Eunuchs and had an international body formed, and a real shot at freeing the rest of the world from Britannia's iron grip. And now the Black Knights were quite possibly ready to abandon it for Japan. Lelouch may have always been an anti-hero, but he never lied about getting results, and how far he'd have to go in the face of the tyrannical Britannia.
Lelouch didn't avert another SAZ massacre: he nearly provoked one, and it was only Suzaku who prevented it. Lelouch also disrupted a legitimate revolution attempt in the CF for his own selfish purposes. No, Lelouch was always pursuing no one's happiness but his own (or Nunally's); the good he may have incidentally done along the way was nothing but a side-effect.

Fudging the facts here, kangaroo court there, the fact is that Lelouch had been using the Black Knights as pawns under the guise of a hero of justice. Abandoning the battlefield in S1, offering them no explanation in Turn 5, and ignoring the annihilation of Japan's capital city in order to tell his units to uselessly search for a Britannian princess: say what you will, but it was obvious that this 'Hero' didn't have Japan or justice's best interests in mind. Lelouch hid behind a mask because he wasn't willing to take responsibility: he wasn't willing to say 'I'm going to risk our entire army and mission because my personal friend from school has just been captured' or 'I am going to launch a pre-emptive war over the streets of Tokyo and ignore any nuclear warnings because my sister is being held hostage'. Lelouch didn't represent justice at all, or even Japanese freedom; all he represented was the destruction of Britannia, and the indiscriminating sacrifice of innocent people on any side to do it.

Quote:
Again, Lelouch should have learned that the truth will set you free every once in awhile, and that he would have done a better job of honoring Euphie's memory by being an agent of peace.
As a matter of who goes down in the history books forever hated by future generations as a villain, not really. Setting the real truth free would have been admitting that he was the one who caused the SAZ massacre with his geass, and Lelouch certainly wouldn't be allowed to carry on as an 'agent of peace' then. The point of atoning for Euphie is that he had caused people to hate him by defiling her memory; without properly accepting his punishment for that, he would have never received the cooperation of Nina or Suzaku.

Quote:
Perhaps, but considering the destruction and loss of life that took place during the Zero Requiem, not to mention Lelouch himself, who would be more useful to the world alive and living on to work for peace? I'd be willing to call that a net loss.
Destruction and loss of life was on its way anyway, what with Schniezel on the horizon. Seems like if you want to achieve peace without that, everybody would need to 'understand each other' ala what Charles wanted. I don't think a world where peace is obtained by the complete subjugation and conquering of a country (i.e. Britannia by the UFN), or by reforms instituted by a tyrant who gained power by brainwashing his entire government, could really be called peaceful or stable.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 05:07   Link #7264
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It wasn't though. Charles' Ragnorok Connection presented a real possibility of getting rid of lies altogether.
By ending human existence, basically.

The existence of lies is as much a part of existence as the darkness, with the truth being the light. Yin and yang. Balance, in other words.

Quote:
I agree that Zero Re:quiem and basically the entire series is pretty much about Lelouch's tragic overreliance on lying. Since his hated enemy was Charles, who represented honesty instead, Lelouch had no choice to justify his existence and all his past actions except to keep on lying. If honesty was the answer, then Lelouch would have had to admit that Charles was right and that his past struggles were meaningless, and that was something Lelouch just couldn't do.
Not necessarily. The point Charles was making was that lies needed to be eliminated altogether. The correct answer would be to acknowledge that lies do have their place, but not always. Balance is what's important. Lelouch wouldn't have necessarily contradicted himself by fessing up where he needed to. Infact, it would have meant him actually growing as a person.

Quote:
Not really. As you stated perfectly above, lying towards your loved ones is a perfect way to botch any chance of achieving personal happiness. Lelouch used Turn 7 to reassess his ends (everybody/his own happiness versus Nunally's alone), but not his methods (lying like a bastard as Zero in order to fuck up Britannia, who incidentally many of those friends whose happiness he wanted had close associations with), but his methods were always the real problem.
His target was the government of Britannia, not its people. He did whatever he could to keep his loved ones out of danger.

Quote:
There is never 'no choice but to lie'. The truth might hurt to admit, but it is still the actual reality. To sacrifice other people by saying its for the greater good is never good enough; there will always be those affected who will say it just wasn't worth it. Euphie's feelings are not really relevant to the matter: it was Suzaku whose dreams had been trampled and stepped on; Suzaku whose feelings were saved by Lelouch getting what he deserved.
What happened to Euphie was an accident. It was the effect of an ill-timed choice of words that led to her starting a massacre of the Japanese, forcing Lelouch to shoot her. Lelouch did practically the only thing he could in that case, and have something come of it. Besides, Suzaku already could tell Lelouch was lying when he falsely admitted to deliberately geassing and then shooting Euphie. He didn't want Lelouch to die that way, and if he felt he deserved to die, then that's crappy of Suzaku, because Lelouch's death wouldn't bring back Euphie, nor would it necessarily make her dream come true. Moreover, it resulted in Nunnally becoming estranged from Lelouch, something she was never happy with.

Quote:
Lelouch didn't avert another SAZ massacre: he nearly provoked one, and it was only Suzaku who prevented it. Lelouch also disrupted a legitimate revolution attempt in the CF for his own selfish purposes. No, Lelouch was always pursuing no one's happiness but his own (or Nunally's); the good he may have incidentally done along the way was nothing but a side-effect.
Incorrect. It was practically everyone else but him and Nunnally who provoked it. They knew the SAZ would either result in the dissolution of the Black Knights, or a riot amongst the Japanese, which would be used as a pretext for a purge. Lelouch averted this by having everyone there dressed up as Zero, so that he could have everyone, including the Black Knights, exiled. Now granted, it relied on Suzaku's act, but that very reaction is something Lelouch had gambitted on.

Quote:
Fudging the facts here, kangaroo court there, the fact is that Lelouch had been using the Black Knights as pawns under the guise of a hero of justice. Abandoning the battlefield in S1, offering them no explanation in Turn 5, and ignoring the annihilation of Japan's capital city in order to tell his units to uselessly search for a Britannian princess: say what you will, but it was obvious that this 'Hero' didn't have Japan or justice's best interests in mind. Lelouch hid behind a mask because he wasn't willing to take responsibility: he wasn't willing to say 'I'm going to risk our entire army and mission because my personal friend from school has just been captured' or 'I am going to launch a pre-emptive war over the streets of Tokyo and ignore any nuclear warnings because my sister is being held hostage'. Lelouch didn't represent justice at all, or even Japanese freedom; all he represented was the destruction of Britannia, and the indiscriminating sacrifice of innocent people on any side to do it.
You're embellishing on a few cases where his emotions got the best of him. (He probably didn't offer any explanation in Turn 5 because his sense of honor keeps him from perceivably making excuses.) And to a degree, it's understandable, given Nunnally was his world for years. And he put her on the backburner for many, many episodes at that point. Her apparent death made him flip out there, but he did come back around, just not soon enough. And said initial nuclear warnings came from Suzaku, who he didn't trust after the perceived betrayal, not to mention the lack of precedent for any such thing.

These things don't present Lelouch so much as a false hero so much as a kid with major issues because he never had any real parental figures growing up. Even so, he had his sights set on the whole world, while the Black Knights were only interested in Japan, and were also using him as a pawn to an extent. To that effect, they were willing to sell him in exchange for Japan, effectively abandoning the rest of the UFN (they were the military force) in their struggle against Britannia, which would have been many times worse than Lelouch disappearing during the Black Rebellion. They were basically selling out to Britannia with this move. And if they were suspicious about Lelouch searching for a Britannian princess, why would they dare sit down with the most notorious of the Britannian royals?

Quote:
As a matter of who goes down in the history books forever hated by future generations as a villain, not really. Setting the real truth free would have been admitting that he was the one who caused the SAZ massacre with his geass, and Lelouch certainly wouldn't be allowed to carry on as an 'agent of peace' then. The point of atoning for Euphie is that he had caused people to hate him by defiling her memory; without properly accepting his punishment for that, he would have never received the cooperation of Nina or Suzaku.
He wouldn't have to admit it to everyone, because the issue of geass is too far fetched. Again, it was an accident. And as far as accidents go, Suzaku did one even worse by nuking Tokyo because he couldn't take a hint and give up when he was almost dead meat.

As far as coming clean and all that, what about the Black Knights and their treachery coverup?

Quote:
Destruction and loss of life was on its way anyway, what with Schniezel on the horizon. Seems like if you want to achieve peace without that, everybody would need to 'understand each other' ala what Charles wanted. I don't think a world where peace is obtained by the complete subjugation and conquering of a country (i.e. Britannia by the UFN), or by reforms instituted by a tyrant who gained power by brainwashing his entire government, could really be called peaceful or stable.
So? Take out Schneizel, then work for a democratic society. It may not be perfect, but it would be equal and stable at the very least.

And if you're insistent on Lelouch dying for stuff he was accidentally guilty of as well, what about Cornelia, who wantonly slaughtered thousands of civilians, but still lived at the end? Shouldn't she be hung for war crimes?

Last edited by azul120; 2010-12-20 at 05:33.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 09:29   Link #7265
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
By ending human existence, basically.

The existence of lies is as much a part of existence as the darkness, with the truth being the light. Yin and yang. Balance, in other words.
Not really. Say everybody evolved to be capable of telepathy (Charles' plan was basically just this on a mass scale plus telepathy with dead people, btw). Would that mean the end of human existence?

Quote:
Not necessarily. The point Charles was making was that lies needed to be eliminated altogether. The correct answer would be to acknowledge that lies do have their place, but not always. Balance is what's important. Lelouch wouldn't have necessarily contradicted himself by fessing up where he needed to. Infact, it would have meant him actually growing as a person.
I don't know that lies are necessary things. It could go either way IMO; there are some drawbacks to never being able to hide the truth, ever, but that is still probably less than the utter filth and excess of a world where self-interested assholes routinely get away with things. To claim that 'balance' is what's required is nothing more than self-convenience; I don't believe it's okay to say 'I lied for such and such a reason and that was okay but you are a terrible person for lying for another'.

Quote:
His target was the government of Britannia, not its people. He did whatever he could to keep his loved ones out of danger.
That's kinda the point. 'Whatever he could' could obviously never be enough when the fundamental act of trying to destroy Britannia while his friends still thought of themselves as Britannians was a betrayal of them in the first place. If any of them chose to oppose him, they would be in danger no matter what his intentions were, period.

Quote:
What happened to Euphie was an accident. It was the effect of an ill-timed choice of words that led to her starting a massacre of the Japanese, forcing Lelouch to shoot her. Lelouch did practically the only thing he could in that case, and have something come of it. Besides, Suzaku already could tell Lelouch was lying when he falsely admitted to deliberately geassing and then shooting Euphie. He didn't want Lelouch to die that way, and if he felt he deserved to die, then that's crappy of Suzaku, because Lelouch's death wouldn't bring back Euphie, nor would it necessarily make her dream come true. Moreover, it resulted in Nunnally becoming estranged from Lelouch, something she was never happy with.
See, there's that 'have something come of it' which is the core issue here. You think your life or your mission is so important that you have to keep going no matter how bad you fuck up? People fail in life, that is reality. Pushing your guilt and failure onto someone else just because you have to 'keep going' is slimeball behaviour. The world can go on. It doesn't need you. Other people can pick up the slack, that is life and that's living. You don't get to decide that your 'justice' is what the world needs. If you fuck up, you should be the one to take responsibility for it, not someone innocent. Its because Lelouch finally realized this that he chose to take the fall at the end of everything. A person does not decide their own forgiveness, not if they are truly sorry. Others do.

Quote:
Incorrect. It was practically everyone else but him and Nunnally who provoked it. They knew the SAZ would either result in the dissolution of the Black Knights, or a riot amongst the Japanese, which would be used as a pretext for a purge. Lelouch averted this by having everyone there dressed up as Zero, so that he could have everyone, including the Black Knights, exiled. Now granted, it relied on Suzaku's act, but that very reaction is something Lelouch had gambitted on.
SAZ, in all likelihood, would have just been an empty project with miserably few participants without Lelouch's intervention. Nunally would have got her way, and the Britannian officials wouldn't care because none of the Japanese would even give it a chance after the travesty that was the first one. What Lelouch did was bring a million people to this harmless little gathering, and dress them all up as fucking terrorists. The fact that there seemed to be no Japanese people there who weren't part of the 'screw Britannia's genuine efforts to make life better for us' plan makes it clear how unlikely another massacre would have been had they not gone there. No, the only one who brought the shadow of another SAZ massacre into reality was Lelouch, plain and simple.

Quote:
You're embellishing on a few cases where his emotions got the best of him. (He probably didn't offer any explanation in Turn 5 because his sense of honor keeps him from perceivably making excuses.) And to a degree, it's understandable, given Nunnally was his world for years. And he put her on the backburner for many, many episodes at that point. Her apparent death made him flip out there, but he did come back around, just not soon enough. And said initial nuclear warnings came from Suzaku, who he didn't trust after the perceived betrayal, not to mention the lack of precedent for any such thing.

These things don't present Lelouch so much as a false hero so much as a kid with major issues because he never had any real parental figures growing up. Even so, he had his sights set on the whole world, while the Black Knights were only interested in Japan, and were also using him as a pawn to an extent. To that effect, they were willing to sell him in exchange for Japan, effectively abandoning the rest of the UFN (they were the military force) in their struggle against Britannia, which would have been many times worse than Lelouch disappearing during the Black Rebellion. They were basically selling out to Britannia with this move. And if they were suspicious about Lelouch searching for a Britannian princess, why would they dare sit down with the most notorious of the Britannian royals?
Lelouch's actions are understandable from a personal level, but personal feelings aren't what the fate of entire nations and populations of people should hinge on. Lelouch wasn't fit to be their leader, so he was removed, that was all. The UFN had no explicit reason to be at war at Britannia; if they could achieve peace and independance without mindless destruction and killing, why shouldn't they?

Quote:
He wouldn't have to admit it to everyone, because the issue of geass is too far fetched. Again, it was an accident. And as far as accidents go, Suzaku did one even worse by nuking Tokyo because he couldn't take a hint and give up when he was almost dead meat.

As far as coming clean and all that, what about the Black Knights and their treachery coverup?
Whether it was an accident or not is irrelevant. The question is whether the guilty party took responsibility, which Suzaku for his part quickly subjected himself to. I don't see how anything the Black Knight's did is relevant, there is nothing for which they have to ask for forgiveness from people.

Quote:
So? Take out Schneizel, then work for a democratic society. It may not be perfect, but it would be equal and stable at the very least.

And if you're insistent on Lelouch dying for stuff he was accidentally guilty of as well, what about Cornelia, who wantonly slaughtered thousands of civilians, but still lived at the end? Shouldn't she be hung for war crimes?
How does Lelouch 'work for a democratic society', exactly? Used his geassed government to turn Britannia into a democracy? Become elected as the former Emperor of Britannia? There was no taking out Schneizel democratically in the first place, so how does he 'democratically' take part in that world after it?

As for Cornelia, if the people think she needs to be hanged for her crimes after everything's over, she will stand trial. Euphie never got that chance, because Lelouch told the people to condemn her. I'll say again, its not the sins themselves that Lelouch was atoning for, it was the fact that he had lied about who committed them.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-12-20 at 09:40.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 16:14   Link #7266
Hsadman
Lashloseus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Planet : Mars
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
We seem to be haphazardly throwing in historical examples, so let me provide a similar analogy for the peace created by Zero Re:quiem. You said that WWII didn't actually result in peace afterwards, because the Cold War erupted right after. However, my emphasis would instead be on the fact that the Cold War never erupted into all out war. Certainly at least some part of that must be down to the desire for peace the world's citizens felt after WWII. Zero Re:quiem basically works the same way: for the people in Code Geass's universe, Lelouch's reign would basically be a simulation of all the horrors of WWII. Now, add on top of that the fact that there is no communism/capitalism split, that every country got wrecked and conquered so that there is no "oh shit, Russia's got tens of millions of people in its army" or "oh shit, the US has got atom bombs flying around", and you don't even got a Cold War either. This is in all honesty a pretty stable political situation. I mean, even at minimum you could consider it as stable as the post WWII period, and that gave us, what? 20-30 years? before any real fighting broke out again. I'd say good enough.
Well, did we really learn anything? I mean US foreign policies erupted into a tragedy. 9/11.

It's been a while and we're at war again. And peace is literally something I don't expect any near generation to achieve.

But I do agree people wished for peace. That's why Russia and America didn't bbqnuke each other. Tragedy is also a force which can urge peace, but it can also urge hatred.

So in the same sense, the Code Geass world might be politically stable, but in time, they'll just dive into hell again. Even though people urging for peace is nice, if they never get an actual model of it, I don't think that world has any hope. Plus, there isn't exactly any super revolutionist left, so they'll have to wait for one to come. And god knows how the world is going to be once he/she does.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong, I'm just saying I think's it's much more probable that the Code Geass world would be much more stable if Lelouch lived. Basing it on Human behavior and historic examples.


Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
So you're comparing Lelouch's geass to Hitler's propaganda. Oooooookay.

And people were accepting their lives as Elevens because they knew nothing could stand up to Britannia, until Lelouch came along.
What's so different about them?

They both brainwash people :P
__________________
"You can stop life; but none can stop death."

- Lashloseus
Hsadman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 19:07   Link #7267
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Not really. Say everybody evolved to be capable of telepathy (Charles' plan was basically just this on a mass scale plus telepathy with dead people, btw). Would that mean the end of human existence?
You're either missing the point, comparing apples to oranges, or both.

Quote:
I don't know that lies are necessary things. It could go either way IMO; there are some drawbacks to never being able to hide the truth, ever, but that is still probably less than the utter filth and excess of a world where self-interested assholes routinely get away with things. To claim that 'balance' is what's required is nothing more than self-convenience; I don't believe it's okay to say 'I lied for such and such a reason and that was okay but you are a terrible person for lying for another'.
You're being too black and white about this. Sometimes the truth is just a bad idea. You don't tell a critically ill patient just how dire their situation is, or else they may not get any better, for instance. And in other cases, it's a matter of tact.

And lies weren't said to be necessary, but just part of human nature. You can't keep humans from being who they are.

Quote:
That's kinda the point. 'Whatever he could' could obviously never be enough when the fundamental act of trying to destroy Britannia while his friends still thought of themselves as Britannians was a betrayal of them in the first place. If any of them chose to oppose him, they would be in danger no matter what his intentions were, period.
That's kind of like saying a friend who is trying to save another from alcoholism is betraying that friend. Or, more aptly, simply that showing any distaste for the American government makes me a hater of the country and its people.

None of his friends thought of the Britannian government, one way or the other. Heck, Milly herself might have understood Lelouch's motivations.

Quote:
See, there's that 'have something come of it' which is the core issue here. You think your life or your mission is so important that you have to keep going no matter how bad you fuck up? People fail in life, that is reality. Pushing your guilt and failure onto someone else just because you have to 'keep going' is slimeball behaviour. The world can go on. It doesn't need you. Other people can pick up the slack, that is life and that's living. You don't get to decide that your 'justice' is what the world needs. If you fuck up, you should be the one to take responsibility for it, not someone innocent. Its because Lelouch finally realized this that he chose to take the fall at the end of everything. A person does not decide their own forgiveness, not if they are truly sorry. Others do.
Say what? I just explained it was not Lelouch who was responsible for the massacre. It was his Geass. HIS GEASS. The Japanese were too pissed to accept any other explanation. Euphie was already dead. He used the Deceased Fall Guy Gambit. He couldn't do anything more for her at that point. Besides, if what you say is true, then Suzaku should have been offed as well.

And again, it was because of Nunnally's apparent loss and the Black Knights' betrayal that he decided to die.

And the world may not need him per se, but he would be more useful than many of the people who were left alive, like that traitorous idiot Ohgi and his vain floozy Villetta.

Quote:
SAZ, in all likelihood, would have just been an empty project with miserably few participants without Lelouch's intervention. Nunally would have got her way, and the Britannian officials wouldn't care because none of the Japanese would even give it a chance after the travesty that was the first one. What Lelouch did was bring a million people to this harmless little gathering, and dress them all up as fucking terrorists. The fact that there seemed to be no Japanese people there who weren't part of the 'screw Britannia's genuine efforts to make life better for us' plan makes it clear how unlikely another massacre would have been had they not gone there. No, the only one who brought the shadow of another SAZ massacre into reality was Lelouch, plain and simple.
"Shadow of another SAZ massacre"? That was all because Nunnally brought up the idea in the first place! And "screw Britannia's genuine efforts to make life better for us"? The rank and file of Britannia had no interest in doing so, and Ms. Lohmeyer, most notably, to that effect tried to screw up Nunnally at every turn. Who are the real "fucking terrorists" here?

Quote:
Lelouch's actions are understandable from a personal level, but personal feelings aren't what the fate of entire nations and populations of people should hinge on. Lelouch wasn't fit to be their leader, so he was removed, that was all. The UFN had no explicit reason to be at war at Britannia; if they could achieve peace and independance without mindless destruction and killing, why shouldn't they?
Peace and independence without mindless destruction and killing, the latter of which Britannia was responsible for? I've got a bridge to sell you.

Quote:
Whether it was an accident or not is irrelevant. The question is whether the guilty party took responsibility, which Suzaku for his part quickly subjected himself to. I don't see how anything the Black Knight's did is relevant, there is nothing for which they have to ask for forgiveness from people.
Well, the Black Knights committed mutiny and consorted with the enemy, who screwed them over. Without doing so, their now former leader would have never started the Zero Requiem.

Quote:
How does Lelouch 'work for a democratic society', exactly? Used his geassed government to turn Britannia into a democracy? Become elected as the former Emperor of Britannia? There was no taking out Schneizel democratically in the first place, so how does he 'democratically' take part in that world after it?
You're looking at it from a black and white standpoint. Had he never been betrayed, he would have never started his mass geassing nor his tyrannical actions to begin with.

Quote:
As for Cornelia, if the people think she needs to be hanged for her crimes after everything's over, she will stand trial. Euphie never got that chance, because Lelouch told the people to condemn her. I'll say again, its not the sins themselves that Lelouch was atoning for, it was the fact that he had lied about who committed them.
Who's to say Lelouch wouldn't have allowed a backtracking on Euphie? He put the blame on her as part of the Deceased Fall Guy Gambit, only because he saw that as the only thing that could be done at that point.

And this isn't about condemnation, but karma. Cornelia escaped hers. She had done nothing of significant good nor repented any to make up for her damage.

Last edited by azul120; 2010-12-20 at 19:41.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 21:28   Link #7268
GundamFan0083
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
@Sol and azul.
I'd like to comment on more of what you two are saying, but I can't, there's just too much so I'll only focus on two of your points here.

Charles and the Ragnarok Connection, and how Lelouch is in no way like Hitler.

The Ragnarok connection was meant to destroy humanity.
Okouchi took this directly from Neon Genesis Evangelion and everyone who's seen that knows that Gendou Ikari planned on destroying humanity to be with Yuki via the intrumentality project.

The Ragnarok was the Code Geass equivalent of the Instrumentality Project and thus no different.
Charles wanted to stop time forever and merge all of humanity into one consciousness thereby destroying its individualism (which I'd argue is what makes us all human in the first place), just so that (in theory) he could be with Marianne again.
Charles even tells Schneizel he can have what's left of the world to rule in episode 20 I believe.

That's a huge difference from what Lelouch and Schneizel were trying to do.
Lelouch laid out what he really wanted a few times in both S1 and R2.
He wanted a world free of racism, feudalism, socialism (like the Chinese Federation), and totalitarianism.
Lelouch believed in the individual rights of people all the way until the Zero Requiem.
He pushed for democracy in the creation of the USJ and eventually the UFN in direct contrast to the other governments that existed in that world.
We see Lelouch constantly explain how the poor, downtrodden, and weak are to be protected by the Black Knights.
Who Lelouch tells us are "Knights for Justice."
He tells us numerous times that it's not him that's wrong, but the world.

To compare Lelouch's propaganda to Hitler is only partially accurate.
Hitler lied constantly about his so called religious beliefs when in fact he was an atheist (an admitted such in his private letters: see the book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953).
Hitler used his mockery of religion to push his Nationalist Socialist agenda of total domination by his version of the Anglo-American Establishment.
Lelouch made no such claims of Divine Providence or Divine Authority to conduct his rebellion against Britannia.
Lelouch worked against racism, genocide, and Aryan domination, while Hitler was the polar opposite of this.
Thus to compare Lelouch to Hitler is erroneous at best.
Both may have been Narcisstic, but they had very different goals.

Okouchi and Taniguichi clearly moldeled Lelouch off of King Arthur.
Arthur was the son of a King (Lelouch was also a prince) was raised as a peasant in the house of a disgraced Noble Family (like Ashford), went on to meet the wizard Merlin (CC plays this role) who gave him the power to build a Kingdom via Excalibur (Geass in Lelouch's case), was betrayed by his best friend and knight Lancelot (which in Lelouch's case is Suzaku who pilots Lancelot), then goes on to unify England (in Lelouch's case this is Japan, then the world).
Arthur dies at the end of the story to save the world (Lelouch does the same).

There are certainly differences between Lelouch and King Arthur, but anyone who's read La Morte d'Arthur can see the similarities are more than just a passing coincidence.

The problem that Code Geass suffers from is the fact that the ending of R2 was so badly rushed that when we finally get to the Zero Requiem it's laughable.
The whole sequence is out of pace with the rest of the show (especially S1) and it simply requires such a massive level of belief suspension as to be ridiculous.

I don't care how badly Lelouch was depressed or in the dumps.
He was FAR TOO AROGANT an individual to do the Zero Requiem, and then die without being able to control the outcome.
If he had lived via a code or some such and was in hiding with CC, I could see a lasting peace as a possibility because Zero (Suzaku) would have Lelouch's guidance to make sure the peace lasted.
However, since Lelouch is clearly dead, the whole story falls apart into total nonsense.

For me, the ending of R2 (the Zero Requiem) has become like NGE's ending, it was cool at first but now that I've watched it several times over (literally) I think it sucks (the ZR ending I mean, the rest is still cool).
__________________
GundamFan0083 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 22:22   Link #7269
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Actually roriconfan is the one who compared Lelouch to Hitler.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 22:38   Link #7270
GundamFan0083
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Actually roriconfan is the one who compared Lelouch to Hitler.
Ah yes, I see that he did.
The conversation between you and Sol is so long that I mixed that in by mistake.
My Bad.

Anyway.
It would seem to me that the overall idea that the writer gave Lelouch what he "deserved" at the end for his actions is in error.

Charles was worse than Lelouch by attempting the total destruction of human individuality.
Clovis, Schneizel, Cornelia, and VV were all worse than Lelouch by murdering innocent civilians to conduct their own pet strategies and agendas.
Hell, Euphie was worse than Lelouch for the simple fact that she was so selfish that she only created the SAZ to be with Suzaku.
She, in part, was responsible for her own death IMHO.
If she hadn't created the SAZ so she and Suzaku could be together, then Lelouch wouldn't have met with her under those circumstances and the massacre wouldn't have happened.

Lelouch killed primarily soldiers, until the Zero Requiem.
The Euphie massacre was an ass-pull by Okouchi, and a Deus ex Machina to boot.
I mean, what are the chances that Lelouch's Geass would go rogue at the precise moment he's meeting Euphie and making his childish statement?
That was bad writing and quite frankly an easy cop-out to a situation the writer had boxed himself into.
Why didn't CC warn him about the possibility?
If Lelouch was aware of his Geass not being controllable (due to his encounter with Mao) why wouldn't this supposedly brilliant character have already taken the necessary steps to stop an accidental Geass effect on someone.
Especially Euphie whom he supposedly was in love with on the same level (or close) to that of Nunnally?
The ass-pull was the Lelouch telling Euphie he had special powers that would allow him to order her to kill the Japanese and the Deus ex Machina was his Geass going rogue at exactly that precise moment.

It just doesn't make sense.
No, Lelouch didn't deserve to have the ending that they wrote for him.
Okouchi wanted a martyr ending with only Lelouch's closest friends knowing the truth and it failed in its execution.
The whole "Lelouch is a modern hero" bull-crap Okouchi used to try and explain Lelouch's decision is not going to excuse the Epic Fail of the Zero Requiem ending.
__________________
GundamFan0083 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-20, 23:22   Link #7271
Hsadman
Lashloseus
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Planet : Mars
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Actually roriconfan is the one who compared Lelouch to Hitler.
Well, to be fair. I brought up Hitler first, but used him as an example, not really a comparison to Lelouch.
__________________
"You can stop life; but none can stop death."

- Lashloseus
Hsadman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-21, 02:39   Link #7272
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
What GundamFan0083 said, basically.

If a Pyrrhic Victory is what they were going after, they could have pulled it off by having Lelouch take C. C.'s code and be forced to live under the mask of Zero indefinitely, and possibly Nunnally dying instead.

Not to mention that, really, I don't think there's anyone able to fill in the gap of competence. Nunnally became a pawn one too many times, Suzaku's too much of a meathead, and the geass over Schneizel could be broken.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-21, 08:10   Link #7273
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
You're either missing the point, comparing apples to oranges, or both.
No? If everybody had telepathy, i.e. they could all read each other's minds to tell what they were really thinking, there'd be no such thing as lies, right?

Quote:
You're being too black and white about this. Sometimes the truth is just a bad idea. You don't tell a critically ill patient just how dire their situation is, or else they may not get any better, for instance. And in other cases, it's a matter of tact.

And lies weren't said to be necessary, but just part of human nature. You can't keep humans from being who they are.
If there were mass telepathy on the level of what Charles was after, actually I believe you could. Everybody knowing everything about other people essentially makes a democracy take place, where if you think or do something unkind or self-serving the entire world will know about it, and if people collectively judge it to be bad enough you are liable to be punished and ganged up on. Of course, if you end up regretting it or feel like your punishment is too harsh, everybody else would be able to feel that as well and thus stop when it is reasonable. This would basically handily stop people from acting out of pure self-interest, and also make a perfect justice system as well.

As for situations of tact or carefulness, the intention of tact will be good enough. If a critically ill patient found out that her situation was terrible via mind-reading, but also found out you didn't want her to find out and give up because she might get better, that should be motivating in itself. Moreso than an optimistic lie, I think the sympathies of the entire world might give greater strength. In such a world, if the intention of a lie would be for good purposes, this good intention would still be communicated, and thus have reasonable persuasive power.

Quote:
That's kind of like saying a friend who is trying to save another from alcoholism is betraying that friend. Or, more aptly, simply that showing any distaste for the American government makes me a hater of the country and its people.

None of his friends thought of the Britannian government, one way or the other. Heck, Milly herself might have understood Lelouch's motivations.
If that friend didn't want to be saved from alcoholism, then trying to 'save' them forcefully really might be. Whether or not Lelouch's friends could have understood doesn't matter, because Lelouch never let them, by giving them any sort of say in this 'happy world' he was trying to make for them. As such, with no knowledge that the world they lived in was slated for complete upheaval, how could they reasonably protect themselves? Shirley's father was the result of Lelouch acting without the trust and knowledge of his friends, and Tokyo's Fleijaing is another instance where Milly and Rivalz could have been fried (they escaped by, what? 100 meters?) by Lelouch's actions. Shirley did die because she wasn't a known friend to Lelouch's forces (Rolo used the excuse that she was an enemy to kill her), and Nina and Suzaku were always at risk being active participants in Britannia's war efforts. The idea that all these people would survive through to the end of Lelouch's activities while he kept it a secret from them and that his 'dream' could ever actually come true while he was off rampaging as Zero is, to put it simply, completely laughable.

Quote:
Say what? I just explained it was not Lelouch who was responsible for the massacre. It was his Geass. HIS GEASS. The Japanese were too pissed to accept any other explanation. Euphie was already dead. He used the Deceased Fall Guy Gambit. He couldn't do anything more for her at that point. Besides, if what you say is true, then Suzaku should have been offed as well.

And again, it was because of Nunnally's apparent loss and the Black Knights' betrayal that he decided to die.

And the world may not need him per se, but he would be more useful than many of the people who were left alive, like that traitorous idiot Ohgi and his vain floozy Villetta.
Euphie was not already dead. Lelouch killed her, then told his army that that was what she'd been planning all along. Lelouch consciously manipulated the situation to be advantageous to him (Japanese too pissed to believe anything else? Yeah right, they were just flat out shocked until Lelouch fed them a lie which was a complete contradiction of everything known and shown about her character), there was nothing inevitable about it. Who was responsible for the massacre? You can say geass this, geass that, but it wasn't Euphie that's for sure. 'It was an accident' is nowhere near a good enough excuse for killing someone good and innocent, utterly ripping apart her life and personality, and dragging her name through the mud after causing the death of hundreds of thousands. That was what Lelouch did, and that was what he atoned for.

The Black Knight's betrayal meant absolutely nothing, btw. They were a means to an end for his revenge, and his military strength could always be reobtained with the power of his geass (see what actually happened in the show).

Quote:
"Shadow of another SAZ massacre"? That was all because Nunnally brought up the idea in the first place! And "screw Britannia's genuine efforts to make life better for us"? The rank and file of Britannia had no interest in doing so, and Ms. Lohmeyer, most notably, to that effect tried to screw up Nunnally at every turn. Who are the real "fucking terrorists" here?
Like I said, a revitalization of an idea that would have gone absolutely nowhere. Hardly anybody even gave the second SAZ a chance, so the idea of anybody showing up for another massacre to happen was basically impossible. Also, say what you like about Britannia's 'rank and file', but Nunally is and was a genuine part of Britannia, making her plan a genuine effort from them. The second SAZ was a sincere effort from Nunally, and Lelouch's real actions amounted to nothing more than making an utter travesty of it by using it to obtain amnesty for a million terrorists. That's the truth, plain and simple--Hero of justice? Bullshit.

Quote:
Peace and independence without mindless destruction and killing, the latter of which Britannia was responsible for? I've got a bridge to sell you.
Sorry, what part of 'subjugating Britannia via military power and conventional warfare isn't gonna be all butterflies and daisies' do you not get? The CF along with the Black Knights make up nearly half of the military power in the world. If they could come to a peace agreement with Britannia, where is the death and destruction happening?

Quote:
Well, the Black Knights committed mutiny and consorted with the enemy, who screwed them over. Without doing so, their now former leader would have never started the Zero Requiem.
So, who do they have to beg forgiveness from? Does Lelouch resent them for their mutiny? Also, you don't know that Lelouch wouldn't have thrown the Black Knights aside and done Zero Re:quiem anyway, after all that happened after he met with Suzaku and Charles in the Sword of Akasha.

Quote:
You're looking at it from a black and white standpoint. Had he never been betrayed, he would have never started his mass geassing nor his tyrannical actions to begin with.
Becoming a tyrant was necessary. First, to obtain the political power to change Britannia from the inside. Second, to gather hatred upon himself so he could erase the stain upon history he had placed upon Euphie. Third, to obtain the military power to be able to combat Schniezel's Fleija. The Black Knights and Zero's mask could never have done any of these things.

Quote:
Who's to say Lelouch wouldn't have allowed a backtracking on Euphie? He put the blame on her as part of the Deceased Fall Guy Gambit, only because he saw that as the only thing that could be done at that point.

And this isn't about condemnation, but karma. Cornelia escaped hers. She had done nothing of significant good nor repented any to make up for her damage.
Cornelia was an honourable human being, loyal to her country, her people, her family, and her subordinates. She despised corruption, especially among her own people and country, and honoured merit. Lelouch, meanwhile, was a distortion of lies, betrayal, and treachery. Nobody carried more distrust and hatred than him. Lelouch abandoned everything good and honourable multiple times for the sake of vengeance and destruction. Lelouch was someone whose pain broke him, so his death was repentance for the times he had gone too far. Cornelia, meanwhile, was always just someone trying to live her best as a person. Nobody could reasonably fault her for the sins of her country, but even if the world demanded it, she would stand trial by her own name. A mask is something you wear to escape retribution and judgement, but Cornelia never used one. That's why, in the end, there's no need for her to die.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
@Sol and azul.
I'd like to comment on more of what you two are saying, but I can't, there's just too much so I'll only focus on two of your points here.

Charles and the Ragnarok Connection, and how Lelouch is in no way like Hitler.
I'll address the former, then.

Quote:
The Ragnarok connection was meant to destroy humanity.
Okouchi took this directly from Neon Genesis Evangelion and everyone who's seen that knows that Gendou Ikari planned on destroying humanity to be with Yuki via the intrumentality project.
This is a poor assumption on your part. Where is it stated that Okouchi based the Ragnarok Connection on Instrumentality? Is this something official or something fans made up based on superficial similarities?

Quote:
The Ragnarok was the Code Geass equivalent of the Instrumentality Project and thus no different.
Charles wanted to stop time forever and merge all of humanity into one consciousness thereby destroying its individualism (which I'd argue is what makes us all human in the first place), just so that (in theory) he could be with Marianne again.
Charles even tells Schneizel he can have what's left of the world to rule in episode 20 I believe.
How does unleashing humanity's shared consciousness equal destroying individualism? The shared consciousness is something individuals access and converse with, like what the internet is to individual computer consoles. People would still go about their own lives and control their own bodies, so there's no reason to say they'd have no individuality.

Schneizel is the perfect balancer with no personal desires of his own, so he would be the ideal arbitrator to guide the course of the world, given knowledge of the entire world's feelings. Schniezel would have been the ideal ruler because he would lead in a manner which would be fair to everybody.

Quote:
That's a huge difference from what Lelouch and Schneizel were trying to do.
Lelouch laid out what he really wanted a few times in both S1 and R2.
He wanted a world free of racism, feudalism, socialism (like the Chinese Federation), and totalitarianism.
Lelouch believed in the individual rights of people all the way until the Zero Requiem.
He pushed for democracy in the creation of the USJ and eventually the UFN in direct contrast to the other governments that existed in that world.
We see Lelouch constantly explain how the poor, downtrodden, and weak are to be protected by the Black Knights.
Who Lelouch tells us are "Knights for Justice."
He tells us numerous times that it's not him that's wrong, but the world.
In fact, what Charles proposed would be the ideal democracy, where every person's individual feelings could be processed at once in the making of important decisions. There would be no aristocracy of elected 'representatives' and there would be no corruption or institutional inequality; in terms of individual rights and representation, it would be a completely equal world.

The only problem Lelouch had with this was that there'd be no future, no change. So essentially, what Lelouch basically had a problem with was that the world would be eternally equal and peaceful. What he probably meant was that without knowing inequality, people couldn't truly appreciate actual equality. Zero: Requiem made use of a lie (the thing the Ragnarok Connection was meant to destroy) to teach the people suffering and inequality, because he wanted them to be able to desire and appreciate true peace and equality. Zero Re:quiem basically created a fake evil that people could universally desire to be defeated and a fake hero that people could believe would universally protect them. Because of these lies, the world was able to cooperate and achieve peace and harmony by its own will, but the possibility for change still existed (i.e. the possibility to move away from peace, which Lelouch thought was important). As far as individuality though, what it achieved is in no way better than what Charles could have done.

Quote:
The problem that Code Geass suffers from is the fact that the ending of R2 was so badly rushed that when we finally get to the Zero Requiem it's laughable.
The whole sequence is out of pace with the rest of the show (especially S1) and it simply requires such a massive level of belief suspension as to be ridiculous.
I pretty much thought Zero Re:quiem was the only well done part of the show (R2), actually. Probably, the whole psychotic fake brother trying to replace Nunally instead of Nunally herself might have ruined the rest for me.

Quote:
I don't care how badly Lelouch was depressed or in the dumps.
He was FAR TOO AROGANT an individual to do the Zero Requiem, and then die without being able to control the outcome.
If he had lived via a code or some such and was in hiding with CC, I could see a lasting peace as a possibility because Zero (Suzaku) would have Lelouch's guidance to make sure the peace lasted.
However, since Lelouch is clearly dead, the whole story falls apart into total nonsense.
Yes, Lelouch was arrogant, but that was the whole point of his confrontation with Charles. Lelouch found out his dad wasn't a bastard who sent them away out of neglect and abandonment. He found out that his mother hadn't died due to lack of protection from persecution and jealousy. Lelouch basically found out that all his hatred was a lie, that all his fears and persecution were self-created paranoia, that all his sins and resolve had served no purpose. That would shatter anyone's self-confidence, don't you think?

Lelouch decided that there was nonetheless meaning in his own struggles, and meaning in the struggles of other people who'd died due to him, basically that to struggle for happiness is life. Lelouch decided that people needed to personally desire and work for things in order to be able to appreciate getting it, so the truth and peace that Charles/Schneizel wanted to force onto the world wouldn't make anybody happy (except Charles himself, because he had to work for it). Instead, he decided to use a lie to make people desire peace for themselves, and then give them a chance to work towards it together. Thus, the fact that Lelouch wasn't going to force the world, that the peace was something which would be grasped and maintained by its own will, was basically the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Anyway.
It would seem to me that the overall idea that the writer gave Lelouch what he "deserved" at the end for his actions is in error.

Charles was worse than Lelouch by attempting the total destruction of human individuality.
Clovis, Schneizel, Cornelia, and VV were all worse than Lelouch by murdering innocent civilians to conduct their own pet strategies and agendas.
Hell, Euphie was worse than Lelouch for the simple fact that she was so selfish that she only created the SAZ to be with Suzaku.
She, in part, was responsible for her own death IMHO.
If she hadn't created the SAZ so she and Suzaku could be together, then Lelouch wouldn't have met with her under those circumstances and the massacre wouldn't have happened.
This is some pretty outrageous stuff you've written here. Schniezel didn't start murdering civilians until roughly the same time Lelouch did, and that was in order to stop Lelouch. His Fleija was always meant to be more of a threat than an actual weapon. Cornelia meanwhile cordoned off a ghetto, but gave hours of warning to civilians to get out of it, precisely because it was only bait for Zero and she was waiting for him to get there. All of her actual operations involved battling against terrorists or enemy soldiers instead. Meanwhile V.V., while indeed he was a jealous little lying bastard, nonetheless didn't have anything to do with civilians.

More importantly, though, your interpretation of Euphie as being selfish and self-interested is frankly (no offense) retarded. Euphie created the SAZ because she wanted to see smiles. Smiles in general, yes, of the Japanese people and of the Britannians living in harmony with them, and also of Nunally, Lelouch's little sister who had put into exile--but more specifically, the smiles Euphie was looking for were the smiles of a person she had loved in the past (i.e. Lelouch) and the smiles of a person she loved now (i.e. Suzaku). In fact, the SAZ was created not for Euphie's personal happiness but to save Lelouch and Suzaku both from their own personal miseries, from Lelouch's painful and distorted hatred of Britannia to Suzaku's guilt-ridden hatred of himself. To say that it was her own fault that she died and that her sacrifice was an act of selfishness is utterly ridiculous.

Quote:
Lelouch killed primarily soldiers, until the Zero Requiem.
The Euphie massacre was an ass-pull by Okouchi, and a Deus ex Machina to boot.
I mean, what are the chances that Lelouch's Geass would go rogue at the precise moment he's meeting Euphie and making his childish statement?
That was bad writing and quite frankly an easy cop-out to a situation the writer had boxed himself into.
Why didn't CC warn him about the possibility?
If Lelouch was aware of his Geass not being controllable (due to his encounter with Mao) why wouldn't this supposedly brilliant character have already taken the necessary steps to stop an accidental Geass effect on someone.
Especially Euphie whom he supposedly was in love with on the same level (or close) to that of Nunnally?
The ass-pull was the Lelouch telling Euphie he had special powers that would allow him to order her to kill the Japanese and the Deus ex Machina was his Geass going rogue at exactly that precise moment.
It was a Deus ex Machina, but it wasn't an ass pull and it wasn't poor story-telling because Code Geass is supposed to be a tragedy. Code Geass could have had a happy ending right then and there (ignoring Charles' Ragnarok Connection plans), but they were aiming for something else.

Quote:
It just doesn't make sense.
No, Lelouch didn't deserve to have the ending that they wrote for him.
Okouchi wanted a martyr ending with only Lelouch's closest friends knowing the truth and it failed in its execution.
The whole "Lelouch is a modern hero" bull-crap Okouchi used to try and explain Lelouch's decision is not going to excuse the Epic Fail of the Zero Requiem ending.
Lelouch deserved it because he wanted it, and no, not because he was suicidally depressive. Lelouch wanted to atone for his distrust and hatred, to end the world's chain of hatred and vengeance, to grant the people he loved a peaceful tomorrow, and to save his best friend's heart and feelings. To do this he had to destroy himself, because he and his life up to then had been precisely an embodiment of the tragedy of distrust and hatred. Lelouch embraced Zero Re:quiem not because he wanted to die, but because it was his redemption.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-12-21 at 08:23.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-21, 12:57   Link #7274
Xander
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Age: 32
Not surprisingly, I agree with most of what Sol Falling has said thus far.

I don't intend to go over everything for the Nth time, but I do want to make a couple of additional comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
The problem that Code Geass suffers from is the fact that the ending of R2 was so badly rushed that when we finally get to the Zero Requiem it's laughable.
The whole sequence is out of pace with the rest of the show (especially S1) and it simply requires such a massive level of belief suspension as to be ridiculous.
You have a point in terms of the show's increasing demands as far as suspension of disbelief goes, by all means, but I believe that is ultimately subjective.

On one level, I do not question the fact that much of its execution remains ridiculous or, alternatively, simply flawed. Most observers would be incapable of denying the production was rushed and this certainly had plenty of negative effects. This is all fairly commonplace. But on another, I continue to think that the ending does fit the underlying tone of the series and its main themes, most of which correspond to those of a tragedy as Sol has already indicated.

The fact that it can be called unrealistic (as many works of fiction inevitably are) or unreasonable (which goes hand in hand with the fallible and rational-irrational nature of human characters or humanity in general), however, does not mean it cannot possibly be appreciated by those who can at least attempt to apply a great degree of suspension of disbelief. It's not, absolutely, how I would have resolved the conflict myself, but I do not believe this makes for an objectivelty "senseless" finale.

After all, there is no such thing as an absolute agreement regarding what "sense" actually means in the context of a completely fictional world which different people can and do continue to interpret in distinct ways, both positive and negative. Unless, of course, you're implying that those who disagree are, in and of themselves, just as "senseless" as the show.

Quote:
However, since Lelouch is clearly dead, the whole story falls apart into total nonsense.
And yet, the opposite argument has been made...not just once but multiple times. I still believe the death of Lelouch adds more than it subtracts to the ending and to his character, and not just in terms of drama or emotional impact alone. The story is under no obligation to guarantee a lasting peace in order to "make sense" in the end. That is simply a subjective expectation and one not everyone necessarily has to share.

Quote:
For me, the ending of R2 (the Zero Requiem) has become like NGE's ending, it was cool at first but now that I've watched it several times over (literally) I think it sucks (the ZR ending I mean, the rest is still cool).
This is interesting because, ironically, both of those endings actually made more sense for me the second time around than what they did at first, regardless of the fact that neither of them represents the popular ideal of how a series is supposed to end. Though I don't mean to suggest that both endings or both shows are equal, because they clearly aren't, this much is something they do tend to have in common...that is, at least, as long as you acknowledge the right of other viewers to differ.

Quote:
The Euphie massacre was an ass-pull by Okouchi, and a Deus ex Machina to boot.
I mean, what are the chances that Lelouch's Geass would go rogue at the precise moment he's meeting Euphie and making his childish statement?
That was bad writing and quite frankly an easy cop-out to a situation the writer had boxed himself into.
Why didn't CC warn him about the possibility?
If Lelouch was aware of his Geass not being controllable (due to his encounter with Mao) why wouldn't this supposedly brilliant character have already taken the necessary steps to stop an accidental Geass effect on someone.
Especially Euphie whom he supposedly was in love with on the same level (or close) to that of Nunnally?
Euphemia's end was bad writing in terms of how the event happened, certainly, but unlike yourself I do believe the result makes conceptual and thematic sense in spite of the contrived coincidences involved. In other words, I think there is both good and bad writing involved. Once again, however, I do acknowledge that this remains a subjective matter because the twist itself shattered a lot of individual suspensions of disbelief regardless of any other considerations. In my particular case, the show still lost some points but it also made me adapt to such developments and, as a result, I was more or less prepared for what came afterwards (not that it prevented me from feeling a bit disappointed though).

As for the characters involved...I do not believe there is any real problem.

Lelouch may have some brilliance but he is also immature and flawed. Intelligence does not equal perfection or some sort of immunity from, yes, occasional stupidity. The more some people insist that a genius should supposedly be incapable of overlooking something or otherwise messing up, the more I realize that's just an artificial expectation and not an inherent requirement. After all, real life is full of examples demonstrating that genius and irrationality can co-exist within the same person.

C.C. was slowly starting to care about Lelouch, yes, but her feelings were still in a confused state and her default personality isn't exactly known for being a proactive character, nor for revealing secrets and looking out for others. Her main objective was still to die and Lelouch's losing control was not supposed to interfere with this. In fact, it would be quite the opposite: a sign of how much his Geass was developing. You could also ask why she didn't tell him about Marianne in the first place.
Xander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-21, 13:10   Link #7275
GundamFan0083
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This is a poor assumption on your part. Where is it stated that Okouchi based the Ragnarok Connection on Instrumentality? Is this something official or something fans made up based on superficial similarities?
There doesn't need to be.
The similarities between the two go far beyond a superficial similarity.

Here is the definition of the Human Instrumentality Project from NGE:

Quote:
The Human Instrumentality Project (人類補完計画, Jinrui Hokan Keikaku) is Seele's secret goal: the forced evolution of humanity through bringing about Third Impact under their own control. As a result, all Lilin souls would be gathered into Lilith's Egg and united as one being. This would create an existence where nobody existed singularly, but merely as part of the whole. In Instrumentality, the flaws in every living being would be complemented by the strengths in others, thus erasing the insecurities in people's hearts.
By your own definition the Ragnarok Connection is the same thing:

Quote:
How does unleashing humanity's shared consciousness equal destroying individualism? The shared consciousness is something individuals access and converse with, like what the internet is to individual computer consoles. People would still go about their own lives and control their own bodies, so there's no reason to say they'd have no individuality.
The problem with your definition is that you fail to realize that Ragnarok went beyond just a shared consciousness. It had physical effects as well which is why all the thought elevators were glowing, the land around them cracking and Charles tells Schneizel he can have what's left of the world to rule.
Marianne even tells Suzaku that he can be with Euphie again.
Yeah! Because they'll all be friggin dead!

Quote:
Schneizel is the perfect balancer with no personal desires of his own, so he would be the ideal arbitrator to guide the course of the world, given knowledge of the entire world's feelings. Schniezel would have been the ideal ruler because he would lead in a manner which would be fair to everybody.
WHAT?
Dude did you even WATCH the show???
Schneizel wanted to use the Damocles to rule over the world via a reign of terror.
He himself says so in episode 25 when he contemplates using a FLEIJA to finish off the Black Knights, but then decides that's too ambitious.
He was a smooth talking liar and a coniving devil.
Lelouch should have killed him for using the FLEIJA on Tokyo, Pendragon, and against him in battle.
The FLEIJA is essentially a Sakuradite version of a nuclear weapon and Schneizel was willing to use it with impunity.
He even convinced Nunnally to launch FLIEJAs like candy from a Pezz-dispenser.

Quote:
In fact, what Charles proposed would be the ideal democracy, where every person's individual feelings could be processed at once in the making of important decisions. There would be no aristocracy of elected 'representatives' and there would be no corruption or institutional inequality; in terms of individual rights and representation, it would be a completely equal world.
What kind of democracy is there in a collective?
That's a bunch of Charles Furrier/Marxian pie-in-the-sky peter-pannery.
Only a socialist fool believes that kind of Kumbai-ya-by-the-fire bullshit.
Individualism IS HUMANTITY.
Without it we are either all slaves or we cease to exist.
What Charles was pushing for was the destruction of humantiy and this is what Okouchi had Lelouch stop.

Quote:
The only problem Lelouch had with this was that there'd be no future, no change. So essentially, what Lelouch basically had a problem with was that the world would be eternally equal and peaceful. What he probably meant was that without knowing inequality, people couldn't truly appreciate actual equality. Zero: Requiem made use of a lie (the thing the Ragnarok Connection was meant to destroy) to teach the people suffering and inequality, because he wanted them to be able to desire and appreciate true peace and equality. Zero Re:quiem basically created a fake evil that people could universally desire to be defeated and a fake hero that people could believe would universally protect them. Because of these lies, the world was able to cooperate and achieve peace and harmony by its own will, but the possibility for change still existed (i.e. the possibility to move away from peace, which Lelouch thought was important). As far as individuality though, what it achieved is in no way better than what Charles could have done.
No, that is NOT what episode 19 shows.
That's clearly you're own spin on it.
Lelouch realizes the insanity of his father and mother and asks G_d to stop them.
G_d grants Lelouch his double Geass and destroys Marianne and Charles.
That's it.
The Big Bad got what both he and she deserved--Death.

Quote:
I pretty much thought Zero Re:quiem was the only well done part of the show (R2), actually. Probably, the whole psychotic fake brother trying to replace Nunally instead of Nunally herself might have ruined the rest for me.
Then you didn't understand it one bit, or you're an idealist whose projecting your own fantasies into the story.

Quote:
Yes, Lelouch was arrogant, but that was the whole point of his confrontation with Charles. Lelouch found out his dad wasn't a bastard who sent them away out of neglect and abandonment. He found out that his mother hadn't died due to lack of protection from persecution and jealousy. Lelouch basically found out that all his hatred was a lie, that all his fears and persecution were self-created paranoia, that all his sins and resolve had served no purpose. That would shatter anyone's self-confidence, don't you think?
No, he found out they were both liars that wanted to destroy the whole of human existance just so they could be together.
He realized they were both insane.

Quote:
Lelouch decided that there was nonetheless meaning in his own struggles, and meaning in the struggles of other people who'd died due to him, basically that to struggle for happiness is life. Lelouch decided that people needed to personally desire and work for things in order to be able to appreciate getting it, so the truth and peace that Charles/Schneizel wanted to force onto the world wouldn't make anybody happy (except Charles himself, because he had to work for it). Instead, he decided to use a lie to make people desire peace for themselves, and then give them a chance to work towards it together. Thus, the fact that Lelouch wasn't going to force the world, that the peace was something which would be grasped and maintained by its own will, was basically the point.
First off, Charles and Schneizel didn't want peace in the manner you're speaking here.
Charles wanted man to have peace of the grave, and Schneizel wanted peace by making it impossible to resist him--which is tyranny and not actual peace.
This is why Zero Requiem was assinine.
There were far better solutions which Okouchi could have written into the story to create peace.
Ending the whole house of Britannia as an example to the world would have helped.
War is a vice of mankind that will exist as long as man exists, and the death of the Demon Emperor wouldn't have changed that.
Thus Okouchi's attempt at making a Martyr-Moment out of the ending of Code Geass was an Epic Failure.
I know it's what they had decided on from the very begining of R2, it was just not done well at all.

Quote:
This is some pretty outrageous stuff you've written here. Schniezel didn't start murdering civilians until roughly the same time Lelouch did, and that was in order to stop Lelouch. His Fleija was always meant to be more of a threat than an actual weapon. Cornelia meanwhile cordoned off a ghetto, but gave hours of warning to civilians to get out of it, precisely because it was only bait for Zero and she was waiting for him to get there. All of her actual operations involved battling against terrorists or enemy soldiers instead. Meanwhile V.V., while indeed he was a jealous little lying bastard, nonetheless didn't have anything to do with civilians.
Clearly you watched this show through a pair of idealogical glasses.
Cornelia was a murderous bitch, end of discussion about her.
Schneizel had been fighting for Britannia for years before the show starts, obviously he was ordering the deaths of numbers during that time.
We don't need to be told this to know it's true.

Quote:
More importantly, though, your interpretation of Euphie as being selfish and self-interested is frankly (no offense) retarded. Euphie created the SAZ because she wanted to see smiles. Smiles in general, yes, of the Japanese people and of the Britannians living in harmony with them, and also of Nunally, Lelouch's little sister who had put into exile--but more specifically, the smiles Euphie was looking for were the smiles of a person she had loved in the past (i.e. Lelouch) and the smiles of a person she loved now (i.e. Suzaku). In fact, the SAZ was created not for Euphie's personal happiness but to save Lelouch and Suzaku both from their own personal miseries, from Lelouch's painful and distorted hatred of Britannia to Suzaku's guilt-ridden hatred of himself. To say that it was her own fault that she died and that her sacrifice was an act of selfishness is utterly ridiculous.
Again, you're making idiotic assumptions based on what you want to believe.
Euphie herself states to Lelouch on Kaminejima island that she's selfish.
She commands Suzaku to LOVE her even though she knows how much pain that will bring him.
She makes him a Knight in defiance of her sister, and she plays into Schneizel's hands by creating the SAZ which Schneizel knows will end the Black Knights and defeat Zero.
All because Euphie wanted to be with Suzaku.
She was a spoiled, rotten, selfish little bitch which is why I cheered when Lelouch shot her.
Good riddance to bad rubbish, it's only a pity that Taniguichi didn't have Lelouch finish off Suzaku as well.

Quote:
It was a Deus ex Machina, but it wasn't an ass pull and it wasn't poor story-telling because Code Geass is supposed to be a tragedy. Code Geass could have had a happy ending right then and there (ignoring Charles' Ragnarok Connection plans), but they were aiming for something else.
NO actually Okouchi--in continue #42--says that "some people may see it as a tragedy, but I see it as a happy ending (yeah if this is your idea of a happy ending) because of the peaceful world he left behind."
Happy Ending?
Okay, Okouchi clearly didn't take enough drags off the opium pipe.
Total and complete ass-pull from hell.
I've read good science-fiction.
Heinlen is probably the best there is, but Code Geass, while a great idea, did in fact end in tragedy but I don't mean Lelouch's death, I mean the storyline.

Quote:
Lelouch deserved it because he wanted it, and no, not because he was suicidally depressive. Lelouch wanted to atone for his distrust and hatred, to end the world's chain of hatred and vengeance, to grant the people he loved a peaceful tomorrow, and to save his best friend's heart and feelings. To do this he had to destroy himself, because he and his life up to then had been precisely an embodiment of the tragedy of distrust and hatred. Lelouch embraced Zero Re:quiem not because he wanted to die, but because it was his redemption.
NO, Lelouch as a character didn't deserve it.
The writer forced it on a character whose personality didn't fit the ending written for him.
The screwed the pooch on this when they made the character do something that nothing in the story prior to it supported.
Zero Requiem was out-of-character for Lelouch.
There is no redemption in death unless you're saying that Lelouch is Jesus Christ and rose again from the dead, which he obviously didn't.
Thus, the ending was crap.
Lelouch deserved a hero's ending and was given the ending of a cowardice bitch.
What a waste of a good character.
__________________
GundamFan0083 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-21, 14:57   Link #7276
Xander
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
The problem with your definition is that you fail to realize that Ragnarok went beyond just a shared consciousness. It had physical effects as well which is why all the thought elevators were glowing, the land around them cracking and Charles tells Schneizel he can have what's left of the world to rule.
Marianne even tells Suzaku that he can be with Euphie again.
Yeah! Because they'll all be friggin dead!
Ragnarok was a metaphysical phenomenon with physical effects though, so it can be argued that the difference between "life" and "death" would be irrelevant from the perspective of those involved if the plan had actually succeeded, regardless of the resulting apocalyptic state of the world, precisely because a collective consciousness had been created. In a similar sense, there wouldn't be any visible difference between the "past" and the "present", essentially removing the possibility of a distinct future or a "tomorrow" as it were.

Lelouch's opposition to the plan, for better or for worse, wasn't primarily based on wanting to prevent the loss of life but on its other implications.

Quote:
What kind of democracy is there in a collective?
That's a bunch of Charles Furrier/Marxian pie-in-the-sky peter-pannery.
Only a socialist fool believes that kind of Kumbai-ya-by-the-fire bullshit.
Individualism IS HUMANTITY.
Without it we are either all slaves or we cease to exist.
You realize that all of this remains a matter of debate in the fields of philosophy and ideology? There is no single objective definition of democracy nor of humanity. Thousands of books have been written on the subject, hundreds of ideologies have come and gone, and there will never be a final answer that is superior to all the others combined.

This larger debate barely matters in the context of the series, in and of itself, but it does mean that calling certain interpretations of the story "foolish" for that particular reason isn't really going to get us anywhere. What's more, the actual story of Code Geass is based on a huge amount of moral ambiguity and relativity to begin with. It's absolutely natural that not all of us will agree about this.

Quote:
Then you didn't understand it one bit, or you're an idealist whose projecting your own fantasies into the story.
Is that not what every single one of us does, however, both consciously and otherwise? We all bring our own concepts of idealism and cynicism to whatever works of fiction we consume. Different people have different interpretations of the same story and this isn't exactly a "bad" thing. The same set of facts can be perceived through distinct angles and this doesn't make for inherently inferior or superior interpretations.

All the same, it could also be argued that you're projecting your own expectations and preferences into the story. It ultimately failed to meet them, for the reasons you've discussed, but others have the right to argue otherwise and engage in a debate. Hopefully without resorting to unnecessary personal attacks.

Okouchi himself, if this even mattered, would probably come here and tell us that nobody understood it "one bit" either. The author's intentions and interpretations aren't necessarily going to come through his work nor will they match those of his audience...nor should they be expected to do so. The story and its characters can always be evaluated independently by different critics who all have the right to speak and present their opinions.

Quote:
Again, you're making idiotic assumptions based on what you want to believe.
See above.

Quote:
NO actually Okouchi--in continue #42--says that "some people may see it as a tragedy, but I see it as a happy ending (yeah if this is your idea of a happy ending) because of the peaceful world he left behind."
It's a bittersweet ending, more than anything else, which is precisely why it's entirely possible to focus on either the "happy" or "tragic" side of it depending on what one wishes to prioritize. And, just as well, you can either accept or reject the result.

I know you're paraphrasing and there's little need to literally dump a bunch of quotes here in order to nitpick such statements to death....but the thing is, Okouchi doesn't deny that the ending can be considered as a tragedy because of Lelouch's fate. He's actually admitting it.

Neither he nor Taniguchi himself, for that matter, are saying that the viewers are forced to share their interpretation of the story and whether or not the ending was a "happy" or "tragic" one. In fact, Taniguchi is quite explicit about leaving this up to the audience.

You think that's a bunch of BS and they are both incompetent? That's alright, but others can and will disagree.

Quote:
NO, Lelouch as a character didn't deserve it.
You think that he didn't deserve it and that the writer forced the ending on Lelouch. That's fine.

Some people agree with you, some don't. Others are somewhere between both positions. That's also fine.

Regardless of this, what Lelouch did or didn't deserve remains up in the air for people like us to debate.

Last edited by Xander; 2010-12-21 at 15:07.
Xander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-21, 17:13   Link #7277
azul120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
No? If everybody had telepathy, i.e. they could all read each other's minds to tell what they were really thinking, there'd be no such thing as lies, right?



If there were mass telepathy on the level of what Charles was after, actually I believe you could. Everybody knowing everything about other people essentially makes a democracy take place, where if you think or do something unkind or self-serving the entire world will know about it, and if people collectively judge it to be bad enough you are liable to be punished and ganged up on. Of course, if you end up regretting it or feel like your punishment is too harsh, everybody else would be able to feel that as well and thus stop when it is reasonable. This would basically handily stop people from acting out of pure self-interest, and also make a perfect justice system as well.

As for situations of tact or carefulness, the intention of tact will be good enough. If a critically ill patient found out that her situation was terrible via mind-reading, but also found out you didn't want her to find out and give up because she might get better, that should be motivating in itself. Moreso than an optimistic lie, I think the sympathies of the entire world might give greater strength. In such a world, if the intention of a lie would be for good purposes, this good intention would still be communicated, and thus have reasonable persuasive power.
Which is why I'm arguing that lies have their place as much as they don't. The Zero Requiem was the type of lie that resulted in more deaths than if Lelouch were to have carried out his plan to replace Britannia and be a good leader from there. Not all lies are created equal, I hope you realize.

Quote:
If that friend didn't want to be saved from alcoholism, then trying to 'save' them forcefully really might be. Whether or not Lelouch's friends could have understood doesn't matter, because Lelouch never let them, by giving them any sort of say in this 'happy world' he was trying to make for them. As such, with no knowledge that the world they lived in was slated for complete upheaval, how could they reasonably protect themselves? Shirley's father was the result of Lelouch acting without the trust and knowledge of his friends, and Tokyo's Fleijaing is another instance where Milly and Rivalz could have been fried (they escaped by, what? 100 meters?) by Lelouch's actions. Shirley did die because she wasn't a known friend to Lelouch's forces (Rolo used the excuse that she was an enemy to kill her), and Nina and Suzaku were always at risk being active participants in Britannia's war efforts. The idea that all these people would survive through to the end of Lelouch's activities while he kept it a secret from them and that his 'dream' could ever actually come true while he was off rampaging as Zero is, to put it simply, completely laughable.
It doesn't have to be, when you're clearly targeting soldiers, and not the whole of Britannia. Shirley's father was an unfortunate accident, one that Lelouch lamented. And Shirley herself? Rolo killed her because she mentioned Nunnally, who he was jealous of, and you know it. And it's funny how you say Suzaku was at risk, while pinning FLEIJA solely on Lelouch, when Suzaku was the one who brought the thing into battle. Sounds to me like you're pulling out any measure to implicate Lelouch.

Quote:
Euphie was not already dead. Lelouch killed her, then told his army that that was what she'd been planning all along. Lelouch consciously manipulated the situation to be advantageous to him (Japanese too pissed to believe anything else? Yeah right, they were just flat out shocked until Lelouch fed them a lie which was a complete contradiction of everything known and shown about her character), there was nothing inevitable about it. Who was responsible for the massacre? You can say geass this, geass that, but it wasn't Euphie that's for sure. 'It was an accident' is nowhere near a good enough excuse for killing someone good and innocent, utterly ripping apart her life and personality, and dragging her name through the mud after causing the death of hundreds of thousands. That was what Lelouch did, and that was what he atoned for.
So would you have rather him let Euphie continue her inadvertent rampage?

And even if it was a rash thing for him to do in order to pin it on Euphie (the main target was Britannia), to say that the way to for him would be to act like an even bigger monster is daft.

Quote:
The Black Knight's betrayal meant absolutely nothing, btw. They were a means to an end for his revenge, and his military strength could always be reobtained with the power of his geass (see what actually happened in the show).
Then you clearly weren't watching. His subordinates loyalty meant nothing if they were manipulated via geass. Not to mention the downright inethicality of how he treated his troops as emperor as I mentioned earlier.

Quote:
Like I said, a revitalization of an idea that would have gone absolutely nowhere. Hardly anybody even gave the second SAZ a chance, so the idea of anybody showing up for another massacre to happen was basically impossible. Also, say what you like about Britannia's 'rank and file', but Nunally is and was a genuine part of Britannia, making her plan a genuine effort from them. The second SAZ was a sincere effort from Nunally, and Lelouch's real actions amounted to nothing more than making an utter travesty of it by using it to obtain amnesty for a million terrorists. That's the truth, plain and simple--Hero of justice? Bullshit.
Dude, let's face it: Nunnally was an exception, not the rule. The Britannians were mostly state-sponsored terrorists. They were open to the idea of purging the Japanese with the slightest excuse. And the Black Knights are the terrorists here? Bizarro world.

Quote:
Sorry, what part of 'subjugating Britannia via military power and conventional warfare isn't gonna be all butterflies and daisies' do you not get? The CF along with the Black Knights make up nearly half of the military power in the world. If they could come to a peace agreement with Britannia, where is the death and destruction happening?
Awwwwwwwwwww, poor little Britannia. Who's gonna protect them from the big, bad Black Knights?

I'm sorry, but it wasn't going to happen. Not with Schneizel and his silver tongue. Ever hear of the Xanatos Gambit?

Quote:
So, who do they have to beg forgiveness from? Does Lelouch resent them for their mutiny? Also, you don't know that Lelouch wouldn't have thrown the Black Knights aside and done Zero Re:quiem anyway, after all that happened after he met with Suzaku and Charles in the Sword of Akasha.
Ever read the Mutuality short stories? He knew he had many ways of attaining peace and beating Schneizel, but he had abandoned all former methods of restraint with his Geass following the betrayal, not to mention that he already didn't care about living anymore, between the betrayal and Nunnally's apparent death, as his plan before the Ragnarok incident was to seal himself inside the World of C with his father.

Quote:
Becoming a tyrant was necessary. First, to obtain the political power to change Britannia from the inside. Second, to gather hatred upon himself so he could erase the stain upon history he had placed upon Euphie. Third, to obtain the military power to be able to combat Schniezel's Fleija. The Black Knights and Zero's mask could never have done any of these things.
He could have changed Britannia by winning the war against it. He could have also still backtracked on Euphie via some explanation of insanity or some sort of forgery pointing to inside meddling. As for the FLEIJA, he could have quite possibly headed straight for Schneizel instead of twiddling around for a month after the Ragnarok incident.

[QUOTE]Cornelia was an honourable human being, loyal to her country, her people, her family, and her subordinates. She despised corruption, especially among her own people and country, and honoured merit. Lelouch, meanwhile, was a distortion of lies, betrayal, and treachery. Nobody carried more distrust and hatred than him. Lelouch abandoned everything good and honourable multiple times for the sake of vengeance and destruction. Lelouch was someone whose pain broke him, so his death was repentance for the times he had gone too far. Cornelia, meanwhile, was always just someone trying to live her best as a person. Nobody could reasonably fault her for the sins of her country, but even if the world demanded it, she would stand trial by her own name. A mask is something you wear to escape retribution and judgement, but Cornelia never used one. That's why, in the end, there's no need for her to die.[QUOTE]

What planet are you on? That might be true if Britannia was a good country. (Hint: It WASN'T.) Britannia was a dictatorship on par with Nazi Germany or imperial Japan, and they killed and treated millions of natives in its occupied colonies as second class citizens. They were the perfect example of Lawful Evil. Cornelia was nicknamed the Witch of Britannia, and for good reason. What you're arguing is basically tantamount to saying that Ariel Sharon was never guilty of war crimes. But I'll get back to all of this later.

Quote:
Schneizel is the perfect balancer with no personal desires of his own, so he would be the ideal arbitrator to guide the course of the world, given knowledge of the entire world's feelings. Schniezel would have been the ideal ruler because he would lead in a manner which would be fair to everybody.
Schneizel was also a nutjob with no understanding or care for human nature or desire. He was willing to put everyone under a Kill Sat for that very reason.

Quote:
In fact, what Charles proposed would be the ideal democracy, where every person's individual feelings could be processed at once in the making of important decisions. There would be no aristocracy of elected 'representatives' and there would be no corruption or institutional inequality; in terms of individual rights and representation, it would be a completely equal world.
There would be no individuality left. Without individuality, there can be no humanity.

Quote:
The only problem Lelouch had with this was that there'd be no future, no change. So essentially, what Lelouch basically had a problem with was that the world would be eternally equal and peaceful. What he probably meant was that without knowing inequality, people couldn't truly appreciate actual equality. Zero: Requiem made use of a lie (the thing the Ragnarok Connection was meant to destroy) to teach the people suffering and inequality, because he wanted them to be able to desire and appreciate true peace and equality. Zero Re:quiem basically created a fake evil that people could universally desire to be defeated and a fake hero that people could believe would universally protect them. Because of these lies, the world was able to cooperate and achieve peace and harmony by its own will, but the possibility for change still existed (i.e. the possibility to move away from peace, which Lelouch thought was important). As far as individuality though, what it achieved is in no way better than what Charles could have done.
It was better than what Charles had offered, but Lelouch would have done better by sticking around to set up a more just and democratic form of government. Not forcing everyone to play nice by some lie of an absolute tyranny would have made a stronger case for free will and individuality, at the same time.

Quote:
I pretty much thought Zero Re:quiem was the only well done part of the show (R2), actually. Probably, the whole psychotic fake brother trying to replace Nunally instead of Nunally herself might have ruined the rest for me.
It was by far the worst part for reasons already explained.

Quote:
Yes, Lelouch was arrogant, but that was the whole point of his confrontation with Charles. Lelouch found out his dad wasn't a bastard who sent them away out of neglect and abandonment. He found out that his mother hadn't died due to lack of protection from persecution and jealousy. Lelouch basically found out that all his hatred was a lie, that all his fears and persecution were self-created paranoia, that all his sins and resolve had served no purpose. That would shatter anyone's self-confidence, don't you think?
What you say isn't absolutely true. They may have loved Lelouch and Nunnally, but they loved themselves and pushing Instrumentality on the world more, and that was quite possibly worse than anything. So Lelouch was still right that Charles was a twisted bastard who needed to be erased from existence. The only crushing thing was the Broken Pedestal that was Marianne.

Quote:
Lelouch decided that there was nonetheless meaning in his own struggles, and meaning in the struggles of other people who'd died due to him, basically that to struggle for happiness is life. Lelouch decided that people needed to personally desire and work for things in order to be able to appreciate getting it, so the truth and peace that Charles/Schneizel wanted to force onto the world wouldn't make anybody happy (except Charles himself, because he had to work for it). Instead, he decided to use a lie to make people desire peace for themselves, and then give them a chance to work towards it together. Thus, the fact that Lelouch wasn't going to force the world, that the peace was something which would be grasped and maintained by its own will, was basically the point.
Who's to say he couldn't be among those people to help work for the peace then?

Quote:
This is some pretty outrageous stuff you've written here. Schniezel didn't start murdering civilians until roughly the same time Lelouch did, and that was in order to stop Lelouch. His Fleija was always meant to be more of a threat than an actual weapon. Cornelia meanwhile cordoned off a ghetto, but gave hours of warning to civilians to get out of it, precisely because it was only bait for Zero and she was waiting for him to get there. All of her actual operations involved battling against terrorists or enemy soldiers instead. Meanwhile V.V., while indeed he was a jealous little lying bastard, nonetheless didn't have anything to do with civilians.
As GF0083 wrote, Schneizel had been responsible for several campaigns over EU, not to mention that he manipulated Nina into building FLEIJA and Suzaku into carrying it into battle, knowing he'd be stupid enough to have it launched over Tokyo. As for Cornelia, she made her defining entrance conquering the Middle East with her Gloucester marching through a curtain of flames, and an evil smirk marking her face. And whatever her stated case for the ghetto infiltration was, her primary concern was the loss of productivity. On top of that, let's face it, she massacred a ton of innocent civilians in the area. Not to mention that she firmly believed that numbers were subhuman. Heck, she also wasn't averse to letting Britannian hostages die, if the Lake Kawaguchi hotel incident was any indication. And I'm not sure V. V. would be in the clear himself regarding civilians, given the ruckus the Jeremiah incident caused in Turn 13.

Quote:
Lelouch deserved it because he wanted it, and no, not because he was suicidally depressive. Lelouch wanted to atone for his distrust and hatred, to end the world's chain of hatred and vengeance, to grant the people he loved a peaceful tomorrow, and to save his best friend's heart and feelings. To do this he had to destroy himself, because he and his life up to then had been precisely an embodiment of the tragedy of distrust and hatred. Lelouch embraced Zero Re:quiem not because he wanted to die, but because it was his redemption.
As I explained earlier, he was suicidal and depressive. And through said lie of Zero Requiem, he caused even more death and destruction than he ever did earlier on in the series. It puzzles me how you can be okay with that by contrast. Oh, that's right, Lelouch was a self-serving scumbag back then, who now had to pay for his crimes. * insert Kyon facepalm .gif *

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Again, you're making idiotic assumptions based on what you want to believe.
Euphie herself states to Lelouch on Kaminejima island that she's selfish.
She commands Suzaku to LOVE her even though she knows how much pain that will bring him.
She makes him a Knight in defiance of her sister, and she plays into Schneizel's hands by creating the SAZ which Schneizel knows will end the Black Knights and defeat Zero.
All because Euphie wanted to be with Suzaku.
She was a spoiled, rotten, selfish little bitch which is why I cheered when Lelouch shot her.
Good riddance to bad rubbish, it's only a pity that Taniguichi didn't have Lelouch finish off Suzaku as well.
Whoa, hold them ponies. It's true that she was selfish in her desires to be with Suzaku and Nunnally, but she also had good intentions, just tragically idealistic ones. That second-to-last sentence was uncalled for. She was a sweet, sweet person with a tragic deficit of common sense. (And I've been totally with your saving and reinvention of her character in your post-canon fanfic saga.)

At the same time, Lelouch was getting too careless with his examples, even with the Diabolus Ex Machina at hand.

At the end of the day, neither should have had to go through what they went through.

Last edited by azul120; 2010-12-21 at 18:51.
azul120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-22, 00:58   Link #7278
GundamFan0083
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Ragnarok was a metaphysical phenomenon with physical effects though, so it can be argued that the difference between "life" and "death" would be irrelevant from the perspective of those involved if the plan had actually succeeded, regardless of the resulting apocalyptic state of the world, precisely because a collective consciousness had been created. In a similar sense, there wouldn't be any visible difference between the "past" and the "present", essentially removing the possibility of a distinct future or a "tomorrow" as it were.

Lelouch's opposition to the plan, for better or for worse, wasn't primarily based on wanting to prevent the loss of life but on its other implications.
Sorry I missed your earlier post Xander, I didn't intentionally skip over your comments I was just in a rush this morning and focused on what Sol said.

And as always you make good points Xander.

Most of my angst, or ire if you will, is raised only when I see someone post what is easily contradicted in the series.
There is no denying the similarities between NGE and Code Geass in so far as the Instrumentality Project and the Ragnarok are concerned.
It isn't fanon its common sense.
I think it adds to Code Geass BTW in so far as it is nice to see that Lelouch thwarted the plan in the manner that Shinji failed to.
Meaning that Lelouch faced his father and overcame him while Shinji simply went along with Gendou.

Quote:
You realize that all of this remains a matter of debate in the fields of philosophy and ideology? There is no single objective definition of democracy nor of humanity. Thousands of books have been written on the subject, hundreds of ideologies have come and gone, and there will never be a final answer that is superior to all the others combined.
I respectfully disagree.
We have seen countries which have tried to implement collectivist (mostly Socialist) governments and they've all been miserable failures.
The people are reduced to serfdom in most cases, and in some cases little more than slaves with no democratic input into the society.
North Korea, Mao's China, the Nationalist Socialists of Germany, Stalin's Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Castro's Cuba, and now even Venezuela is headed for a dictatorship under Hugo Chavez are all prime examples of the worst failures, though many European countries have failed financially as well due to collectivist/welfare-state policies.
Thus history itself has weighed and measured collectivist systems in their current incarnations and found them grossly wanting in so far as democracy is concerned.

However, we're getting off topic here so allow me to drag it back to Lelouch.
Lelouch clearly despised the "redistribution of wealth" of the Chinese Federation and made no bones about it when he confronted the Eunuchs about the starvation of their people.
Here Okouchi hits the mark perfectly and Kudos to him for it.
Lelouch's UFN recongnized all people as equal (in so far as their ability to suceed or fail based on their own ambitions) and gave countries a democratic vote in the affairs of the UFN.
We don't know the inner workings of the USJ, so I won't go there.
It is my opinion that given what we know of all collectivist regimes that have existed in our world, Lelouch would have opposed them as vehemently as he did Britannia.
Therefore, it becomes clear why Lelouch would find the total collectivization of mankind into one consciousness so repulsive.

Quote:
This larger debate barely matters in the context of the series, in and of itself, but it does mean that calling certain interpretations of the story "foolish" for that particular reason isn't really going to get us anywhere. What's more, the actual story of Code Geass is based on a huge amount of moral ambiguity and relativity to begin with. It's absolutely natural that not all of us will agree about this.
Agreed, my apologies to Sol for ragging on his/her view of this subject.
His/her opinion is no less or more correct than mine in so far as whether Lelouch deserved death and I recognize that.
We can disagree, but we shouldn't be disagreeable.
I like much of what Sol has posted here and actually do respect his/her opinion.
Perhaps I was too harsh about this...it's a vice I have, I'm very opinionated and stubborn to boot, but at least I admit it and try to make amends.

Quote:
Is that not what every single one of us does, however, both consciously and otherwise? We all bring our own concepts of idealism and cynicism to whatever works of fiction we consume. Different people have different interpretations of the same story and this isn't exactly a "bad" thing. The same set of facts can be perceived through distinct angles and this doesn't make for inherently inferior or superior interpretations.
Very true, as I said above, I am too opinionated at times.

Quote:
All the same, it could also be argued that you're projecting your own expectations and preferences into the story. It ultimately failed to meet them, for the reasons you've discussed, but others have the right to argue otherwise and engage in a debate. Hopefully without resorting to unnecessary personal attacks.
Of course I'm projecting my opinions and interpretations of Code Geass on this.
However, I should note that I've watched this damn series so much now (going on 13 times) that some episodes are burned into my skull.
Thus I've seen things that I didn't see the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th,....etc. time over and the flaws have become glaringly obvious and near impossible to ignore.
It's amazing how much I missed the first time.
Though going through this the 13th time (I'm on episode 23 of S1) I'm seeing things more clearly IMHO and the show is not as good for me.
I loved Euphie the first time through and hated Lelouch for killing her.
On this 13th time through I can't stand Euphemia, and am actually looking forward to Lelouch shooting her.
I know that's sad in a way, but her character is not as pure to me now as it was the first couple of times through S1.

Quote:
Okouchi himself, if this even mattered, would probably come here and tell us that nobody understood it "one bit" either. The author's intentions and interpretations aren't necessarily going to come through his work nor will they match those of his audience...nor should they be expected to do so. The story and its characters can always be evaluated independently by different critics who all have the right to speak and present their opinions.
Absolutely Okouchi would, and rightfully so.
He'd probably tell us we're all completely wrong.
George Lucas commented on this when Bill Moyer interviewed him after episode one of Star Wars was released in the late 90s.
He couldn't believe the lore and myth that fans had created around Star Wars, and how far off it was.

Quote:
It's a bittersweet ending, more than anything else, which is precisely why it's entirely possible to focus on either the "happy" or "tragic" side of it depending on what one wishes to prioritize. And, just as well, you can either accept or reject the result.
I think I've said this here on this board somewhere before, but I thought it could have been a great ending if they'd done things a little different.
Lelouch would have made a marvelous tragic/martyr hero character if he had died a noble death.
I don't know if it was the rewrite due to the schedule change, or maybe there was more story than there was time to fit it in, but the Zero Requiem doesn't have the weight required (via a build up from supporting episodes) that it needed to be believable.
I think they wasted an opportunity in not having the whole House of Brittania die with the Damocles.
The first problem with the ZR was having Lelouch conduct a murderous reign of terror for no other reason than to become the "Demon Emperor."
His previous character development does not support this level of genocidal mania or capacity to act as a homicidal maniac.
Not even him crossing the Despair Event Horizon, it just was not in Lelouch to kill on that level. It would make him too much like Charles and would only compound, not erase, the SAZ massacre.
The second problem with the ZR was the FLIEJA firing, high orbital, fortress Damocles.
That was a missed opportunity IMHO.
Had they written it to where Schneizel used the fortress to inflict real horror from orbit and nuke major cities, then have Lelouch publicly destroy the fortress and die in the process as part of the Zero Requiem, the believability of a lasting peace would work.

Quote:
I know you're paraphrasing and there's little need to literally dump a bunch of quotes here in order to nitpick such statements to death....but the thing is, Okouchi doesn't deny that the ending can be considered as a tragedy because of Lelouch's fate. He's actually admitting it.
I know, but I completely disagree with Okouchi that this was a happy ending in the way we viewers are presented it.
I'm sure his original story was probably much better than what we got to see.
He IS a very talented writer, but I don't think we got to see his vision in the same way he imagined it (again due to Sunrise and the schedule change, among other things).

Quote:
Neither he nor Taniguchi himself, for that matter, are saying that the viewers are forced to share their interpretation of the story and whether or not the ending was a "happy" or "tragic" one. In fact, Taniguchi is quite explicit about leaving this up to the audience.
Yes they did, and I will not argue against that.
However, as I said above, I don't think we saw the R2 they wanted.
Supposedly Taniguichi said something to this effect, but for the life of me I don't remember where I read that (2ch maybe?).

Quote:
You think that's a bunch of BS and they are both incompetent? That's alright, but others can and will disagree.
I did not say they were incompetent, I said the ZR was poorly written and executed.
I've seen most of his works and I loved Rahxephon (he wrote the movie screenplay), Planetes (script), and nearly all of Code Geass (except the ZR).
All were very well done.
I loved S-Cry-ed which Taniguichi directed, so I know he's an excellent director.
But everyone has a bad day or makes a mistake and these men are no different.
IMHO, the Zero Requiem is a good concept (Lelouch dying for the sake of the world) just the method, and execution of the idea were horribly lacking due to what came prior to it.
There's no doubt Lelouch was prepared to die from the begining of the show, and wanted to die by the time we get to the ZR.
My problem is HOW they chose to make him die (as I stated above).
It is not consistant with his character development and that is where they failed IMHO.

Quote:
You think that he didn't deserve it and that the writer forced the ending on Lelouch. That's fine.
Yes, I do think that due to various reasons Okouchi chose to try and salvage the ending he envisioned instead of modfying it to conform to what they had already built up previously in the anime.

Quote:
Some people agree with you, some don't. Others are somewhere between both positions. That's also fine.
Of course it is, and I'm fine with that.
It's like this with all popluar shows.
Look at the arguments over Star Trek Nemesis, or Voyager, or the Star Wars prequels.
Endless argument by the fans.

Quote:
Regardless of this, what Lelouch did or didn't deserve remains up in the air for people like us to debate.
Which is exactly how it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Whoa, hold them ponies. It's true that she was selfish in her desires to be with Suzaku and Nunnally, but she also had good intentions, just tragically idealistic ones. That second-to-last sentence was uncalled for. She was a sweet, sweet person with a tragic deficit of common sense. (And I've been totally with your saving and reinvention of her character in your post-canon fanfic saga.)

At the same time, Lelouch was getting too careless with his examples, even with the Diabolus Ex Machina at hand.

At the end of the day, neither should have had to go through what they went through.
Hah!
I knew this chastisement was coming!

Euphemia did admit to Lelouch on Kaminejima that she didn't want to be selfish and she was very kind to Nina and others, so she did have her good points.
However, her desire to be with Suzaku seemed to dominate most of her decisions in the last third of the S1 episodes and that is primarily what I'm referring to here.
She was naive, and a ditz to some extent about certain things, but she was not portrayed as completely stupid.
I think one of the morals we're supposed to get out of Geass is that there are consequences to being selfish.
You not only hurt others, but also yourself, and Euphie was an extreme example of this.
But then again, I could be wrong.

I of course agree that neither character should have gone through what they went through, but I'll add--in the way they went through it.
Perhaps it would have been less of an ass-pull if Lelouch had Geassed Euphie in anger rather than via a Deus ex Machina.
Having her press Lelouch about his power and having him do one of his well established (by that time) bursts of anger would--IMO--have made more sense than just having the Geass activate for no other reason than "it got stronger."
__________________
GundamFan0083 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-22, 05:02   Link #7279
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Let's stick with the post where you sound less like an asshole...it'll tone my responses down as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Most of my angst, or ire if you will, is raised only when I see someone post what is easily contradicted in the series.
There is no denying the similarities between NGE and Code Geass in so far as the Instrumentality Project and the Ragnarok are concerned.
It isn't fanon its common sense.
I think it adds to Code Geass BTW in so far as it is nice to see that Lelouch thwarted the plan in the manner that Shinji failed to.
Meaning that Lelouch faced his father and overcame him while Shinji simply went along with Gendou.
Code Geass threw some Freudian shit in there with Marianne going all "Let's all become one!!1! *Orgasm face*", which is probably where all the Eva comparisons are coming from, but there really isn't very much basis for an actual identification in the specifics.

The one claim you brought forward in your previous post was that Ragnarok Junction would cause physical death/bodily loss. You provided earthquakes and lightshows as evidence. Unfortunately, I don't really see the connection there and, as there is no mention of death or the abandonment of flesh and blood bodies in the dialogue, the assumption seems purely made due to a generalization from Evangelion. Can you really deny this?

On the other hand, we know for explicit fact that Charles preserved Marianne's individual body seemingly in hopes of reviving her, so isn't this an explicit demonstration that physical bodies would exist and matter?

As such, it basically seems inevitable that we have to assume that individual consciousnesses would control individual bodies even with the Ragnarok Junction activated. In which case, people would still have individuality as far as free will and democracy goes. The only thing they wouldn't have is, just as Charles had wanted, the ability to lie and decieve people; or more accurately, any privacy of one's thoughts, feelings, or history of experiences.

Quote:
I respectfully disagree.
We have seen countries which have tried to implement collectivist (mostly Socialist) governments and they've all been miserable failures.
The people are reduced to serfdom in most cases, and in some cases little more than slaves with no democratic input into the society.
North Korea, Mao's China, the Nationalist Socialists of Germany, Stalin's Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Castro's Cuba, and now even Venezuela is headed for a dictatorship under Hugo Chavez are all prime examples of the worst failures, though many European countries have failed financially as well due to collectivist/welfare-state policies.
Thus history itself has weighed and measured collectivist systems in their current incarnations and found them grossly wanting in so far as democracy is concerned.
On the other hand, some degree of collectivism as implemented in socialism does do better for democracy (i.e. universal health care, education, etc.), and China's not quite free-market system currently seems to do okay as far as growth is concerned. Some degree of market command or regulation isn't such a bad thing.

On the other hand, I could hardly claim to be either an economist or a political scientist, so let 'It probably still is an open question' suffice as far as my position goes.

Quote:
However, we're getting off topic here so allow me to drag it back to Lelouch.
Lelouch clearly despised the "redistribution of wealth" of the Chinese Federation and made no bones about it when he confronted the Eunuchs about the starvation of their people.
Here Okouchi hits the mark perfectly and Kudos to him for it.
Lelouch's UFN recongnized all people as equal (in so far as their ability to suceed or fail based on their own ambitions) and gave countries a democratic vote in the affairs of the UFN.
We don't know the inner workings of the USJ, so I won't go there.
It is my opinion that given what we know of all collectivist regimes that have existed in our world, Lelouch would have opposed them as vehemently as he did Britannia.
Therefore, it becomes clear why Lelouch would find the total collectivization of mankind into one consciousness so repulsive.
Insofar as what Lelouch accused the Eunuchs of, that statement probably referred to the hypocrisy of the Eunuchs gathering wealth for themselves moreso than a condemnation of the system in general. Did Xingli switch it up into a free market or anything afterwards?

Besides, the problem with 'collectivism' in this context is the distribution part. In terms of a collective subconscious, there is not really anything to redistribute.


Skipping to the Euphie part...

Quote:
Hah!
I knew this chastisement was coming!

Euphemia did admit to Lelouch on Kaminejima that she didn't want to be selfish and she was very kind to Nina and others, so she did have her good points.
However, her desire to be with Suzaku seemed to dominate most of her decisions in the last third of the S1 episodes and that is primarily what I'm referring to here.
She was naive, and a ditz to some extent about certain things, but she was not portrayed as completely stupid.
I think one of the morals we're supposed to get out of Geass is that there are consequences to being selfish.
You not only hurt others, but also yourself, and Euphie was an extreme example of this.
But then again, I could be wrong.

I of course agree that neither character should have gone through what they went through, but I'll add--in the way they went through it.
Perhaps it would have been less of an ass-pull if Lelouch had Geassed Euphie in anger rather than via a Deus ex Machina.
Having her press Lelouch about his power and having him do one of his well established (by that time) bursts of anger would--IMO--have made more sense than just having the Geass activate for no other reason than "it got stronger."
The core of the question here seems to be that you assume Lelouch is irrevocably dedicated to an revolutionary cause and there is no possible way he could entertain personal happiness in co-existence. That is why Euphie's actions seem selfish to you, that she wanted to stop Lelouch's revolution for her own sake, when instead her motivation lay in Lelouch's personal happiness (Euphie didn't want her own smile, she wanted those of Lelouch and Suzaku).

However, while Lelouch may have had some idealogical aspirations, the root of his hatred and his personal motivation was always personal moreso than idealogical. Why did Lelouch desire a better world? It was for Nunally to live in it, not people in general. As such, Lelouch's displeasure when the SAZ was announced and the Black Knights verged on disbanding was not that the evil nation of Britannia would continue existing, but instead that he could not exact revenge for himself and Nunally.

The point here was, Lelouch thought Britannia hated him, had persecuted him and was chasing him, so that he needed to destroy it to live peacefully. He thought if they knew he was alive, the jealous nobles and aristocrats who'd plotted to kill his mother would stab him in his sleep. That was the distortion of his happiness.

Remember episode 19, where Lelouch and Euphie reminisced over their past together?

Remember Euphie's scene with Clovis' paintings, which showed how clearly Clovis had loved Marianne's children.

Lelouch had told Euphemia that he might need to kill her because she was Charles' daughter. His fear and hatred clearly had roots in his suspicion of his family. This was his tragic misconception, when he and his mother were widely loved. If Euphemia could manage to prove that to him, that would kill the essential part of Lelouch's hatred.

And in essence, that was what the SAZ was designed to do. It's important goal was not to kill the hatred of the Japanese, but to kill the hatred of Lelouch, who would then be able to live peacefully and happily with the people who loved him once again. it was a safe haven for Nunally. It gave real hope to the Japanese. If it produced an increase in productivity, it might influence policies in other zones. It was an idyllically happy ending, which really might have worked out if the writers just let them have their chance at it. That's what makes its senseless destruction such a tragic and shocking part of the story.

It was not a wish borne out of selfishness. If the Japanese people could be happy; and if Nunally could be happy, then there remained no more reason for the people of the story to wish to destroy Britannia. Euphie grieved for Lelouch's hatred and misery. She grieved for her dead brother who had loved him dearly. That is why Euphie devised this plan and went so far as to sacrifice her title to ensure its completion. With the symbol Zero by her side, who would surely feel no reason to cooperate if the Britannians did not keep their promises, they could keep their island safe.

What you perhaps could say is that Lelouch was selfish. That he might have given up his revolutionary cause in return for personal safety and happiness. This would be in keeping with what was actually displayed of his character, even if it doesn't match up to your ideal of him. However, to say that Euphie was selfish, that it would have been more believable for Lelouch to geass Euphie in anger rather than by accident, is to force a non-existent interpretation upon Lelouch's character.



@azul:

Sorry, long posts are long, I think I will have to make the above my last for this conversation. Its gone on randomly further than I thought it would, and I think as far as our current discussion we mostly disagree on the minute details. My point has not been that Lelouch could not have done better had he been honest, but that he had to choose to lie due to his conflicts with his father (also that things turned out pretty well anyway). See above for why RC =/= instrumentality and Charles' path represented a legitimate path to peace and honesty. As for why Lelouch couldn't live on along with his lie, Lelouch both needed Nina and Suzaku's power to defeat Schniezel (the Fleija canceller) and sincerely desired a reconciliation for personal reasons (after all, his world-view of hatred and distrust had been shattered; his and Suzaku's hearts were in the same place); for that purpose, he acknowledged what he had ripped away from his best friend (AKA Euphie) and offered Suzaku a true gesture of repentance for what he had done.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-22, 12:47   Link #7280
GundamFan0083
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
Sol stop being condecending, it does nothing for your argument.
You assumptions about the "benefits" of socialism are unfounded and wrong.
There are no known benefits to either institution you sited, but that's not the focus of this thread: Lelouch is so let's stick to that.

You clearly don't remember what the Ragnarok Connection is.
Here, watch the key points of it in R2 ep 21.
It's made plain as day that the "dead and the living will be together" and a "new world will replace the old."
That means the old world will end (be destoyed) and a new one created that is stagnant.
That's exactly the same premise as the Human Intrumentality Project that Steele proposed.
How they are presented in their respective animes is irrelevant since the concepts are identical.
Remember, Steele from NGE intended to still be alive to control the Human Instrumentality Project, just as Charles and Marianne intended to be "alive" to enjoy their version of it.




As for Euphie, I think you're giving the character far too much intelligence and credit.
She didn't create the SAZ for Japan, she clearly did it because of her love for Suzaku (and her siblings to a lesser extent).
Suzaku was always her main goal.
Go back and rewatch the series again with a clear mind and actually watch it without the bias you have and you'll see what I'm talking about.
You seem to have overanalyzed Code Geass into something that the show doesn't support.
__________________
GundamFan0083 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.