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Old 2011-05-27, 15:55   Link #7401
azul120
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Not to mention that if Kallen was an asset more than anything, he was betting big time by making an enemy out of her during Zero Requiem. She nearly kept the plan from the working.

Cluclu doesn't really make any more sense. C. C. and Lelouch were accomplices.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
@azul120:
Kallen does not know Lelouch is alive in DoD until episode 26 (the very last episode).
If you mean an episode/chapter of Chronicles or Alpha and Omega, then I'd like to know which one.
Especially since I explore Kalulu in Chronicles of Tartarus and bring it to what I see as its logical conclusion in the begining of Alpha and Omega.
Again, I was regarding to her reactions towards Lelouch as Zero before she knew it was him. It would make sense for her to wonder whether he was dead all along, and to try figuring out if it's him or not, but not to constantly act all huffy around him.
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Old 2011-05-27, 17:08   Link #7402
Xander
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Honestly, I would say arguing over most of these details is interesting but seems to be missing the point.

Code Geass is a story full of ambiguous, unbalanced and unhealthy relationships between characters who, more often than not, barely classify as young adults.

Some of that has to do with writing issues and the staff's inability to fully develop a proper romance from beginning to end, yes, but I believe it's also a matter of choice. The type of drama the writer and director were going for relies on the intermittent emotional insecurity and immaturity affecting almost all of the main cast members, including Lelouch himself and his different kinds of mood swings.

While I agree with several of the specific arguments azul120 and morbofist have presented here, because there certainly are some situations where Lelouch did display an above average level of emotional concern for Kallen, in the end GundamFan0083 still has an underlying point. However you want to describe Lelouch's feelings for Kallen, it certainly wasn't romantic love.

Then again, I don't think that term and all of its implications applies to any of his remaining relationships either. Even Lelouch isn't exactly sure about how to describe his own feelings for anyone not named Nunnally or Euphemia, whom he certainly "loved" but never really treated as actual romantic interests either.

What complicates things further is the fact Lelouch was both very selfish and very selfless in his own twisted way. That's one of the basic contradictions and sources of inner conflict he has to deal with during the entire show.

For Lelouch, "trust" and "love" are almost always unrelated concepts. He doesn't trust everyone he "loves" (how much did Lelouch consistently trust Nunnally or even Euphemia?) and doesn't "love" everyone he trusts (C.C. was his closest confidant out of necessity, long before they ever became close on a more personal level) either.

He was ultimately willing to listen to Euphemia's request about the SAZ, sure, but only after almost executing his own plan to ruin her dream. Is that really a sign of trust? No, not really.

Granted, Lelouch does attempt to give a better treatment to those closest to him from time to time, whenever he's in the right mindset and circumstances allow it, but the differences can be rather small when you look at the details. The same thing goes for whatever "love" we want to bring into the picture...except that "love" without a whole lot of trust or, for that matter, any true passion tends to feel rather...platonic, at best, if not hollow.

This is why I'd still call Lelouch an "asshole" myself but, all the same, in my book he's perhaps slightly less of one than what GundamFan0083 has previously argued, in order to explain and accomodate certain situations where his conflicting feelings led him to act in gentler ways. You may want to consider that a result of bad writing but it also goes hand in hand with the type of character and the type of story being told.
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Old 2011-05-27, 18:59   Link #7403
lightsenshi
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that both Lelouch and Shirley had feelings for each other. I'm even going to suggest that if Shirley hadn't met her demise, or met her demise in a different way, the entire series would have had a different twist.

Lelouch only shows remorse on using Geass on two people. One being Euphemia, which I think is more a case of him committing a major cluster frag and wishing he hadn't. The other being Shirley, whom it is suggested several times that he'd wished he hadn't have felt like he'd had to use Geass to erase her memories (of him).

It would have been frightfully easy for Lelouch to make Sneizel out to be the bad guy rather than taking that burden upon himself. I might even suggest that Lelouch had a suicide wish simply so he could be with Shirley again.

Lelouch destroyed Geass, and ultimately everything he'd possessed (including his relationship with his family). I don't think it was the simplest or easiest path that he could have taken, I think it's the one that he chose (again) for Shirley's sake (and unspokenly in her name).
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Old 2011-05-27, 20:03   Link #7404
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Originally Posted by lightsenshi View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that both Lelouch and Shirley had feelings for each other.
Shirley obviously did, but with Lelouch, again, we're never given a clear answer. He obviously cared a great deal about her, but beyond that we'll have to chalk it up to ambiguity or "was Lelouch even capable of romantic love"?
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I'm even going to suggest that if Shirley hadn't met her demise, or met her demise in a different way, the entire series would have had a different twist.
Well, that's almost certainly definite.
Quote:
Lelouch only shows remorse on using Geass on two people. One being Euphemia, which I think is more a case of him committing a major cluster frag and wishing he hadn't. The other being Shirley, whom it is suggested several times that he'd wished he hadn't have felt like he'd had to use Geass to erase her memories (of him).
Well, honestly, they probably are the only ones he has any reason to feel remorseful about. He doesn't care about the countless mooks he geasses and subsequently murders, and most other characters he doesn't really do any harm to. Suzaku's, while being harmful in some ways, was also helpful in others and Lelouch hated him half the time anyway. Kallen's was done pretty early on before Lelouch even really knew her and it didn't end up hurting her anyway. Nunnally...well, I imagine it's difficult to geass your own sister, but he did it to complete his plan and didn't really hurt her.
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It would have been frightfully easy for Lelouch to make Sneizel out to be the bad guy rather than taking that burden upon himself. I might even suggest that Lelouch had a suicide wish simply so he could be with Shirley again.
As a Shirlulu fan, it's nice to think so (well, Lelouch killing millions of people for her sake isn't so nice, but whatever). But I think it's pretty safe to say that Lelouch became the big bad because he wanted to unify the world and punish himself with death. And if that's all Lelouch wanted was to be with Shirley again, he couldn't just committed suicide without the whole global tyranny thing.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that Zero Requiem was a complete illogical mess.
Quote:
Lelouch destroyed Geass, and ultimately everything he'd possessed (including his relationship with his family). I don't think it was the simplest or easiest path that he could have taken, I think it's the one that he chose (again) for Shirley's sake (and unspokenly in her name).
More of what I said above, and also it's not really that Lelouch went out to destroy everything he possessed, but more that he had lost everything he cared about. At the start of ZR, to his knowledge he had lost the last person he had truly love (Nunnally) and the only other family he had was a bunch of Britannians jerks who he never liked in the first place. Of course, there are other much better paths he could've taken, but that's a debate for another day.
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Old 2011-05-27, 22:41   Link #7405
azul120
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He was driven to the Zero Requiem after losing everything at that point, including Nunnally (or so he thought), and Kallen along with the Black Knights. He could have tried clearing himself, but he'd already crossed the Despair Event Horizon.

I don't think he was necessarily an asshole, rather a Type A Tsundere with severe mental issues.

As far as Euphie's plan goes, he had good reason to believe it wouldn't work, until she fully explained herself.

One other thing: the whole "in order to change the world, you have to isolate yourself" aesop, is utterly broken by two of the people who screwed things up most for him, Ohgi and Villetta, who were happily married in the end. If not for their interference, said isolation might not have happened to begin with. Ironic, no?
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Old 2011-05-27, 22:54   Link #7406
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Not to mention that if Kallen was an asset more than anything, he was betting big time by making an enemy out of her during Zero Requiem. She nearly kept the plan from the working.

Cluclu doesn't really make any more sense. C. C. and Lelouch were accomplices.

Neither do any of the pairings really.
Shirley comes the closest.
Outside of fanfiction (of which there are 2 Kalulu ones I find awesome, Bonzo's manga adaptation, and Wing Zero Alpha's Meddigo) Shirlulu is probably the only one that actually makes any sense.
As you know, I don't like the R2 guidebook because it says Kallen couldn't capture (understand is the meaning here) Lelouch's heart or mind. I don't buy that.
I think Lelouch did care for her as a friend and trusted ally.

This scene is a favorite of Kalulu's so I'll use it as an example of the R2 guidebook being wrong:



CC, I'm totally confused about because of Lelouch declaring he'd fulfill her true wish, which according to ep 15 of R2 is to be truly loved by someone (due to her Geass being one that forced others to love her).



Pretty possesive for someone who's just his accomplice.

That contradicts the idea of her only being his accomplice, and thus the Guidebook and the anime are at odds with each other about both Kallen and CC.

Also, to be completely clear on this azul120 let me say that I don't think it would be impossible for a Kallen x Lelouch pairing if Zero Requiem hadn't happened, and he had lived.
Also, more story would need to be used to develop a relationship between them (as Bonzo and WZA have done).
Same thing with C2.
The potential exists, but there wasn't enough story to support either of them (which is ironic when you think about it).
And as you well know, the Zero Requiem arc killed all pairings by turning Lelouch into a monster and ultimately him at the end.

And that's my point, the Kalulus are grasping at straws by trying to prove something that isn't provable anymore than CC x Lelouch, Shirley x Lelouch, or hell Rolo x Lelouch for that matter, because there wasn't enough romance developed between Kallen and Lelouch in the series prior to his spiral into insanity that was Zero Requiem.
Same goes for CC, though they do share a tender moment in ep 23 of R2.



Only Shirley and Lelouch really had a thing started, but she died before it was finished.

That said I'll clarify why I don't like the Kallen x Lelouch pairing.
The Kallen pairing is a pairing between her and the Zero Requiem Emperor Lelouch.
He's a complete jerk at that point, and I guess I just like Kallen too much to see her throw her life away on what Lelouch became during Zero Requiem.
If the Kallen x Lelouch fans don't like that then I don't care, because she's too cool a character to throw away on someone as flawed as Lulu.
I'm glad Okouchi had enough sense to make Lelouch reject her.
As I said before, she deserved much better IMO.

Quote:
Again, I was regarding to her reactions towards Lelouch as Zero before she knew it was him. It would make sense for her to wonder whether he was dead all along, and to try figuring out if it's him or not, but not to constantly act all huffy around him.
You mean when she thought Zero was Suzaku?
If that's what you mean, then it was supposed to reflect her contempt for Suzaku trying to act like Lelouch had while he was Zero.
If I failed to relay that then that's my fault and I accept full responsibility for the failure.
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Old 2011-05-27, 23:06   Link #7407
GundamFan0083
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One other thing: the whole "in order to change the world, you have to isolate yourself" aesop, is utterly broken by two of the people who screwed things up most for him, Ohgi and Villetta, who were happily married in the end. If not for their interference, said isolation might not have happened to begin with. Ironic, no?
Aw crap, azul120 I forgot that ep 15 of R2 has the whole Villetta saving Ohgi scene in it and I know how much you "luuuuuuv" those two.
It's a pity they didn't get smashed on the rocks below that cliff.
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Old 2011-05-28, 01:09   Link #7408
SonOfHeaven
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Haven't posted here for awhile.

Lelouch feelings were left ambiguous. That was pretty clear in the show except for Nunnally and Euphy who were family. Still think its more interesting to talk about depth of Kallen's feelings(or C.C's) since that's a more interesting topic.

@Gundam

Also that is enough about Lelouch x Kallen fans this and that. Heck I could go on about fans of Lelouch x C.C/Shirley(especially from what I've seen here and on different forums). Fans of these pairings will speculate since Lelouch's feelings were left ambiguous at the end of the day. I'm a fan of Lelouch x Kallen personally. Had some great discussions here in the past about the show and post materials when the forum was more active especially in the Kallen thread.

And you have already stated previously you don't like Kalulu fans in other topics on this forum in the past. Don't know why you keep mentioning even now.
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Old 2011-05-28, 01:48   Link #7409
GundamFan0083
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I know you haven't posted here in awhile, I missed you.
I'm glad I tempted you back here to post with my sexy-snark.

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@Gundam

Had some great discussions here in the past about the show and post materials when the forum was more active especially in the Kallen thread.
I saw that while going through the Kallen thread and the old Romance Threads (4 of them!).
You were feisty back then.

Quote:
And you have already stated previously you don't like Kalulu fans in other topics on this forum in the past. Don't know why you keep mentioning it all the time.
Fans?
No it's their fuzzy-logic I have a problem with.
I don't like being brow-beat by Kalulus every time I try to pair Lelouch with someone else (like CC, or Shirley, or whoever) in a discussion.
As you well know I'm open to all the pairings, provided it's understood by all that ZR pretty much ends any possiblity of any of them being considered official/cannon.

This particular session of "there are no official pairings in Geass" is brought to you by Suzkau x Kallen or Kallen x Suzaku via the image thread.

When you Kalulus start accepting other pairings without getting all bent out of shape about it, I'll stop going on the warpath about Kalulu.
You all ought to expand the possibilities for poor Kallen, god, give the girl a break will yah.
Her life sucked through most of the series, why would anyone want to continue that by pairing her with "I have emo-issues" Lelouch?
The guy's a trainwreck by ep 25 of R2, why would anyone wish that on a character they like?
CC I can understand, she deserves it (and I don't mean that as a compliment to her).
But poor old Kallen?
It just seems really mean.
I think it was Arbitres who first paired her with Rai, and that is the pairing I like best for Kallen, but alas Rai is only a PSP/2 game character.
Pity, they had matching KMFs.

Rai's blue custom Gekka pre-production type:
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Old 2011-05-28, 01:54   Link #7410
SonOfHeaven
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I can say the same about Lelouch x C.C/Shirley fans as well. How many times have I mentioned Lelouch x Kallen in other forums and got straight up hated for it. From what I've seen forums, Kalulu fans have been ok, the same with the other pairings. You make it sound like its only Kalulu which isn't true. I just let it go personally especially with dealing with Gino x Kallen fans.

I'll always like Lelouch x Kallen. Kallen loved him so I'll support that. Not some game character like Rai who's irrelevant to the show or anyone in this show. Unless there's a sequel with development on that front.
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Old 2011-05-28, 01:59   Link #7411
GundamFan0083
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I've never gotten any hate from CC x Lelouch fans or Shirlulus.
Sorry to hear that you have, seriously.

Hey, you're free to like Kallen x Lelouch all you want.
If it works for you, so be it.
I'm not going to criticize you about it, unless of course you try to say it's true/factual as a pairing.
Then it goes outside fanon/fanfiction and into the realm of needing to be corrected.
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Old 2011-05-28, 02:11   Link #7412
SonOfHeaven
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Alright. That's fine. I've heard many Lelouch x C.C fans stating its the true pairing all over the place(Some of these same people were trying to put Kallen with Gino as her true pairing by gasping at straws clearly to open up Lelouch x C.C). Most would then talk crap about Kalulu like its their job too.

Well, that enough of that. I've learned to just debate a character's feelings then Lelouch's since no one and I mean no one will change their opinion on Lelouch's. Since it was left ambiguous. Which has been true on every Code Geass forum I've been to.
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Old 2011-05-28, 02:16   Link #7413
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Alright. That's fine. I've heard many Lelouch x C.C fans stating its the true pairing all over the place(Some of these same people were trying to put Kallen with Gino as her true pairing by gasping at straws clearly to open up Lelouch x C.C). Most would then talk crap about Kalulu like its their job too.

Well, that enough of that. I've learned to just debate a character's feelings then Lelouch's since no one and I mean no one will change their opinion on Lelouch's. Since it was left ambiguous. Which has been true on every Code Geass forum I've been to.
Hey who knows, maybe Sunrise will come out one day and tell us we're all wrong.
Maybe this is the correct answer to the Romantic Question of "Who does Lelouch love?"

Spoiler for Lelouch...pimp'n:


Charles had like what...104 wives?
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Old 2011-05-28, 03:36   Link #7414
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Aw crap, azul120 I forgot that ep 15 of R2 has the whole Villetta saving Ohgi scene in it and I know how much you "luuuuuuv" those two.
It's a pity they didn't get smashed on the rocks below that cliff.
Yeah. Word.

If I ever do a "Justice Fic" (blade suggested the nickname), I'll have Suzaku make a little visit over to their manor or wherever it is that PMs stay after he figures it all out (the betrayal and the leadup), and have him give a good verbal beating to those two, while he puts his foot down on Ohgi's head (a la w/ Lelouch on Turn 17), stopping short at holding them at gunpoint, only to make them his personal slaves, and have their baby taken away, and handed over to Kallen... who has now adopted the Lamperouge surname in memory of Lelouch. (Yep, stole Bonzo's idea.) And yes, she's not too happy either.
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Old 2011-05-28, 05:05   Link #7415
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Wow did I come back to see Lelouch/CC, Lelouch/Shirley, and Lelouch/Kallen shipping wars?

Good thing I'm on a boat of my own with my Rolo/Lelouch and Lelouch/Milly ships hurhurhur.
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Old 2011-05-28, 11:57   Link #7416
GundamFan0083
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Yeah. Word.

If I ever do a "Justice Fic" (blade suggested the nickname), I'll have Suzaku make a little visit over to their manor or wherever it is that PMs stay after he figures it all out (the betrayal and the leadup), and have him give a good verbal beating to those two, while he puts his foot down on Ohgi's head (a la w/ Lelouch on Turn 17), stopping short at holding them at gunpoint, only to make them his personal slaves, and have their baby taken away, and handed over to Kallen... who has now adopted the Lamperouge surname in memory of Lelouch. (Yep, stole Bonzo's idea.) And yes, she's not too happy either.
I look forward to it.
Suzaku's boot on Ohgi's head sounds like justice to me!!

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Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia View Post
Wow did I come back to see Lelouch/CC, Lelouch/Shirley, and Lelouch/Kallen shipping wars?

Good thing I'm on a boat of my own with my Rolo/Lelouch and Lelouch/Milly ships hurhurhur.
And using the typical KalClulu logic (if there is such a thing ) via nit-picking, cherry-picking, and doing the "ooh he's looking at [insert name here] a special way [yeah sure]" Rolo is definitely a candidate for Lelouch loves.

Here's an extended version of the "closet moment" between Rolo and Lelouch.



Don't get me started on Rolo x Lelouch.
It's not hard to "prove" they were playing "hide-the-salami" using the fuzzy-headed shipping methods of other pairings.
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Old 2011-05-28, 14:49   Link #7417
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I look forward to it.
Suzaku's boot on Ohgi's head sounds like justice to me!!
Yeah.

First I thought of killing Villetta Marianne-style (to recall V. V.'s whole "woman leading the man astray" thing, for one), but I decided to just spare her. Putting them in their place by way of Reason You Suck Speech and then making them his lackeys would be plenty. The core ideas I would invoke would be Villetta chasing after her own wants at other people's expense, whether it be love or status, and Ohgi of course being unfit to lead due to his lack of focus or clearsightedness. Ergo, neither deserved what they got in the end: Villetta, her heightened status as First Lady of Japan along with her love, and Ohgi, his status as Prime Minister along with his love. Meanwhile, other more sympathetic and/or crucial characters had their ships sank: Suzaku and Euphemia, and Lelouch with either Shirley or Kallen. I'd have Kallen hold him responsible in particular, as mentioned earlier.

BTW, what do you think I should do with Cornelia? I'd only have it mentioned as an aside. I'd probably go easy on her, and have her know and feel bad about everything, and agree to whatever punishment.

Quote:
And using the typical KalClulu logic (if there is such a thing ) via nit-picking, cherry-picking, and doing the "ooh he's looking at [insert name here] a special way [yeah sure]" Rolo is definitely a candidate for Lelouch loves.

Here's an extended version of the "closet moment" between Rolo and Lelouch.



Don't get me started on Rolo x Lelouch.
It's not hard to "prove" they were playing "hide-the-salami" using the fuzzy-headed shipping methods of other pairings.
Haha. That reminds me of that episode of South Park with Tom Cruise and R. Kelly in Stan's closet.
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Old 2011-05-29, 12:27   Link #7418
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Yeah.

First I thought of killing Villetta Marianne-style (to recall V. V.'s whole "woman leading the man astray" thing, for one), but I decided to just spare her. Putting them in their place by way of Reason You Suck Speech and then making them his lackeys would be plenty. The core ideas I would invoke would be Villetta chasing after her own wants at other people's expense, whether it be love or status, and Ohgi of course being unfit to lead due to his lack of focus or clearsightedness. Ergo, neither deserved what they got in the end: Villetta, her heightened status as First Lady of Japan along with her love, and Ohgi, his status as Prime Minister along with his love. Meanwhile, other more sympathetic and/or crucial characters had their ships sank: Suzaku and Euphemia, and Lelouch with either Shirley or Kallen. I'd have Kallen hold him responsible in particular, as mentioned earlier.

BTW, what do you think I should do with Cornelia? I'd only have it mentioned as an aside. I'd probably go easy on her, and have her know and feel bad about everything, and agree to whatever punishment.
Actually, that sounds really good.
I hope you can complete it soon.

As for Cornelia...hmmm, I wouldn't be overly cruel to her, since Euphie's death did teach her something of a lesson, but by the same token I'd have her verbal thrashing be truthful, curt, and without any sugar-coating to save her feelings.
She really did deserve to die, though not as much as Schneizel did since she had a change of heart at the very end of Code Geass (in the Damocles even she was horrified by Schneizel lying to Nunnally and using FLEIJA).

You might want to tie her complete disregard for Euphie's SAZ plan, and how her mad obsession to kill Zero, blinded her as to who Zero probably was.
I mean, why would Zero have saved Euphie in the Hotel, how did Zero know Cornelia loved Euphie, why did Euphie insist on Zero joining her in the SAZ.
From a purely character viewpoint (putting yourself in Cornelia's shoes) she should have figured out Euphie was talking to someone she knew personally and that person probably was Zero.
Cornelia probably might not of realized it was Lelouch, but then again, Zero's intimate knowledge of her feelings for Euphie may have clued Cornelia in that it was Lelouch.
That of course would be your choice on how you'd go about it.
These are just my suggestions.


Quote:
Haha. That reminds me of that episode of South Park with Tom Cruise and R. Kelly in Stan's closet.


All they needed was Suzaku with a gun singing about Lelouch and Rolo in the closet, then shooting it wildly.

I liked that episode of South Park.
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Old 2011-05-31, 04:42   Link #7419
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^ Isn't Lulu's and Rolo's video a bit too much extended? But it still makes them look cuute and more caring
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Old 2011-06-09, 17:23   Link #7420
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Actually, that sounds really good.
I hope you can complete it soon.

As for Cornelia...hmmm, I wouldn't be overly cruel to her, since Euphie's death did teach her something of a lesson, but by the same token I'd have her verbal thrashing be truthful, curt, and without any sugar-coating to save her feelings.
She really did deserve to die, though not as much as Schneizel did since she had a change of heart at the very end of Code Geass (in the Damocles even she was horrified by Schneizel lying to Nunnally and using FLEIJA).

You might want to tie her complete disregard for Euphie's SAZ plan, and how her mad obsession to kill Zero, blinded her as to who Zero probably was.
I mean, why would Zero have saved Euphie in the Hotel, how did Zero know Cornelia loved Euphie, why did Euphie insist on Zero joining her in the SAZ.
From a purely character viewpoint (putting yourself in Cornelia's shoes) she should have figured out Euphie was talking to someone she knew personally and that person probably was Zero.
Cornelia probably might not of realized it was Lelouch, but then again, Zero's intimate knowledge of her feelings for Euphie may have clued Cornelia in that it was Lelouch.
That of course would be your choice on how you'd go about it.
These are just my suggestions.
Well, I've been thinking of mostly going the Noodle Incident route since I'm planning to stage this during that single encounter at Ohgi and Villetta's residence, but I might be able to wedge in a minor flashback.

Quote:


All they needed was Suzaku with a gun singing about Lelouch and Rolo in the closet, then shooting it wildly.

I liked that episode of South Park.
Then Suzaku joins them both in the closet, because of course, everyone knows they're mutually attracted. Ask Sayoko.
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