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Old 2012-05-12, 00:02   Link #7481
Eragon
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
There were other factors as well that could have been averted if not for bad luck and/or other characters' stupidity, namely the betrayal. Not to mention the Britannian army members, for instance who got off scot-free.
Well the betrayal by the Black Knights was a direct consequence of the massacre of Japanese "ordered" by Euphie. I don't feel they had any other good enough reason to betray Lelouch.
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Old 2012-05-12, 19:28   Link #7482
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The Euphinator incident was pretty much the point where a totally happy ending became pretty much impossible. Any chance of everyone decent banding together to go against the really evil characters went up in smoke after that, though to be fair, the stakes ended up being a little more different than just Britannian tyranny vs the world. Which also was another bad point alot of people didn't like.

But there were other logical factors (that don't include Ougi venting his frustations about Viletta) for their betrayal, like Lelouch's arranging for the deaths of the JLF. As Toudou's former bosses he kind of has the right to be pissed about that, as he certainly didn't see them as inconviences to be disposed of like Lelouch did.

And him ditching them in the Black Rebellion. No, going after his sister is not an acceptable reason in the eyes of the Black Knights as Nunnally means nothing to them. It would have been a glaringly selfish and unprofessional act, in their eyes. And the fact that he again risked them getting Fleiaed for Nunnally would piss them off further, because they would not accept being considered disposible in comparsion to a blind cripple who is an enemy to boot.

And him recruiting Rolo and Jeremiah, and placing more trust and duties to them, while leaving the Black Knights more and more out of the loop. With the reveal of him being a Britannian Prince, and realizing that his primary targets were all rivals to the throne, it wouldn't be too out of place for them to believe that Lelouch was simply using them as tools for a power grab, and planned on disposing of them and jumping ship to Britannia to take the throne for himself. Hence him recruiting Britannian's more loyal to him than their cause. This would also ring some warning bells.

Unfortunately none of this is brought up, and they basically just betray him because Ougi tells them to, combined with Lelouch not making any attempt to defend or justify himself, but just saying basically "Yep, I was fooling you all. Shoot me."

Had they had more time, or put more effort, they could have set up the betrayal in a more logical way.
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Old 2012-05-14, 18:00   Link #7483
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Lelouch was an exiled Britannian prince, and therefore had every reason to hate Britannia after being left to fend for himself in Japan while they invaded and occupied it.

Not sure if he deliberately arranged all of the JLF deaths. Those kind of happened. Whether Katase could have been saved is debatable.

And Ohgi for his part also committed similar actions below that with the secrecy. First, kept Villetta a secret and either disappeared or was out of commission on two different occasions because of that. The first time, when she regained her memories, she shot him because he let her guard down around him, which caused them to lose their hold on Ashford. Next, he nearly let himself get killed by her after he disappears from them in China. Not to mention that she is responsible for keeping watch over Lelouch during the year skip, which also accounts for the Knights being imprisoned and due for execution. So why is it that they get the initiative in putting up a case against Lelouch, when they'd set up some questions of their own to answer for, and Ohgi reassumes his leader post and gets Villetta onto the squad, not to mention the under the table deal for Japan that would have came at the expense of the UFN?

The irony about Nunnally is that she's the one they recognize as empress at the end, not to mention that she's seen with both Ohgi and Nagisa. If ye only knew, you two.

Lelouch didn't make any attempt to defend himself, because 1) they decided then and there he was too dangerous to convince otherwise, and 2) Schneizel put them up to it, and he could tell he had another nuke ready.

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Well the betrayal by the Black Knights was a direct consequence of the massacre of Japanese "ordered" by Euphie. I don't feel they had any other good enough reason to betray Lelouch.
All they heard was a selectively quoted recording, from which Suzaku himself noted Lelouch had just been lying so as to apologize.

Last edited by azul120; 2012-05-14 at 21:43.
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Old 2012-05-15, 06:40   Link #7484
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Lelouch was an exiled Britannian prince, and therefore had every reason to hate Britannia after being left to fend for himself in Japan while they invaded and occupied it.
He also had every reason to think he had a shot at ruling the most powerful nation in the world. Either is a convincing narrative, and if you've just had your faith seriously shaken in someone you'd previously trusted a great deal, you'll be pre-disposed to buy the more cynical narrative.

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Not sure if he deliberately arranged all of the JLF deaths. Those kind of happened. Whether Katase could have been saved is debatable.
He definitely deliberately arranged the deaths of Katase and the others. Agreed, even if he'd legitimately tried to save them it might still have ended in failure, but as it is he didn't even try; he made it look as though he did, but then blew them up with that sakuradite bomb to ensure that he would be the sole credible leader of resistance in Japan.

That said, it's a little academic, since I'm not sure how even Schneizel could have known about that. At the same time, he might have deduced it and then lain the possibility before Toudou and the others. Again, it's not about what can be proven, it's about what can be believed. Once Schneizel had shown that Lelouch was hiding things from the Black Knights, all he had to do was lay a plausible version of events before them to win the day.

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And Ohgi for his part also committed similar actions below that with the secrecy. First, kept Villetta a secret and either disappeared or was out of commission on two different occasions because of that. The first time, when she regained her memories, she shot him because he let her guard down around him, which caused them to lose their hold on Ashford. Next, he nearly let himself get killed by her after he disappears from them in China. Not to mention that she is responsible for keeping watch over Lelouch during the year skip, which also accounts for the Knights being imprisoned and due for execution. So why is it that they get the initiative in putting up a case against Lelouch, when they'd set up some questions of their own to answer for, and Ohgi reassumes his leader post and gets Villetta onto the squad, not to mention the under the table deal for Japan that would have came at the expense of the UFN?
To be honest, I kind of agree with you here (Ohgi has always been one of few points we have agreed on, no? ), but to play Devil's Advocate for a moment: Ohgi at least hadn't intentionally endangered anyone's lives with his actions. He's also a lot more open and trustworthy generally than the aloof, mysterious and demonstrably manipulative (whether or not you think he has good aims) Zero/Lelouch. The former's trespasses the Black Knights would probably be a lot more prepared to try and understand.

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Lelouch didn't make any attempt to defend himself, because 1) they decided then and there he was too dangerous to convince otherwise, and 2) Schneizel put them up to it, and he could tell he had another nuke ready.
Well, that and was suicidal. Which I have to admit is not something of which I thought I'd ever have to remind you of all people. :P

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All they heard was a selectively quoted recording, from which Suzaku himself noted Lelouch had just been lying so as to apologize.
True, though in fairness they didn't know it was selectively quoted. At any rate, though, I think Aquaman's point was more, 'The betrayal could have been handled a lot more realistically just by filling in a few gaps,' rather than, 'The betrayal as is makes perfect sense.' If you see what I mean. As is, yeah, the Black Knights turned on Zero rather too quickly for anyone's liking, but if more time had been given to the entire incident, in particular giving Schneizel more time to build up his narrative against Lelouch, it does seem like they could have easily made it a lot more believable without really changing any of the facts going into it.
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Old 2012-05-15, 17:46   Link #7485
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He also had every reason to think he had a shot at ruling the most powerful nation in the world. Either is a convincing narrative, and if you've just had your faith seriously shaken in someone you'd previously trusted a great deal, you'll be pre-disposed to buy the more cynical narrative.
Well, given what little Schneizel told them, yes.

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He definitely deliberately arranged the deaths of Katase and the others. Agreed, even if he'd legitimately tried to save them it might still have ended in failure, but as it is he didn't even try; he made it look as though he did, but then blew them up with that sakuradite bomb to ensure that he would be the sole credible leader of resistance in Japan.
The others in stage 8 happened because they were terrorizing civilians. It did appear as if he blew up Katase's ship because guarding him may have been impossible, and blowing it up at least provided a feint.

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To be honest, I kind of agree with you here (Ohgi has always been one of few points we have agreed on, no? ), but to play Devil's Advocate for a moment: Ohgi at least hadn't intentionally endangered anyone's lives with his actions. He's also a lot more open and trustworthy generally than the aloof, mysterious and demonstrably manipulative (whether or not you think he has good aims) Zero/Lelouch. The former's trespasses the Black Knights would probably be a lot more prepared to try and understand.
Perhaps, but still, he should have been relieved of his position.

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Well, that and was suicidal. Which I have to admit is not something of which I thought I'd ever have to remind you of all people. :P
Actually, Kallen had tempered his suicidalness a bit when they had that heart to heart the moment before. Right before he spotted Schneizel, he was thinking of a way out. It was right after he had been swept to safety and was all alone that he no longer cared what happened to him.

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True, though in fairness they didn't know it was selectively quoted. At any rate, though, I think Aquaman's point was more, 'The betrayal could have been handled a lot more realistically just by filling in a few gaps,' rather than, 'The betrayal as is makes perfect sense.' If you see what I mean. As is, yeah, the Black Knights turned on Zero rather too quickly for anyone's liking, but if more time had been given to the entire incident, in particular giving Schneizel more time to build up his narrative against Lelouch, it does seem like they could have easily made it a lot more believable without really changing any of the facts going into it.
I don't disagree, but the betrayal happening basically hinged on the following:

1) The Black Knights being too suspicious to hear out Lelouch because of his Geass
2) Schneizel basically declaring Screw the Rules, I Have A Nuke!

I don't think giving anymore time would have significantly changed the scenario, sadly. Ergo, the scenario itself was the issue. Especially since the BKs were still against Schneizel before Ohgi and Villetta dropped in.

Last edited by azul120; 2012-05-15 at 17:57.
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Old 2012-05-16, 07:26   Link #7486
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The others in stage 8 happened because they were terrorizing civilians. It did appear as if he blew up Katase's ship because guarding him may have been impossible, and blowing it up at least provided a feint.
Katase, as far as we know, had done nothing of the sort, though. If Lelouch were honestly abhorred by all of the JLF, he wouldn't have gone through such trouble to get Tohdoh to join the Black Knights. No, fan of Lelouch though I am, I can't view the Katase incident as anything but a deliberate manúuvre to eliminate potential rivals for his leadership of the anti-Britannian forces in Japan - though granted, he also saw much of the JLF's commanding echelons as deadwood the movement as a whole would be helped not hindered for eliminating.

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Perhaps, but still, he should have been relieved of his position.
Yeah, that much I'll get behind.

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Actually, Kallen had tempered his suicidalness a bit when they had that heart to heart the moment before. Right before he spotted Schneizel, he was thinking of a way out. It was right after he had been swept to safety and was all alone that he no longer cared what happened to him.
He still wasn't in a particularly good mental state. If he'd been at the top of his game, I'm pretty sure that even Schneizel's presence wouldn't have stopped him trying to escape the situation somehow. But when presented with those odds, it was a lot easier for him as he was at the moment to just give up on everything and say, "Oh, to hell with it. I lose. Goodbye, cruel world."

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I don't disagree, but the betrayal happening basically hinged on the following:

1) The Black Knights being too suspicious to hear out Lelouch because of his Geass
2) Schneizel basically declaring Screw the Rules, I Have A Nuke!

I don't think giving anymore time would have significantly changed the scenario, sadly. Ergo, the scenario itself was the issue. Especially since the BKs were still against Schneizel before Ohgi and Villetta dropped in.
I disagree. I think if the betrayal, and perhaps admittedly R2 generally, had been handled with a little more care and attention, the whole thing could have been a lot more plausible without drastically changing the actual events. Aquaman's already listed some pretty good reasons as for why, so I'll just wrap this off for now rather than prattling for another half a page as I'm wont to.
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Old 2012-05-18, 13:43   Link #7487
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[QUOTE=Yamiken;4162784]Katase, as far as we know, had done nothing of the sort, though. If Lelouch were honestly abhorred by all of the JLF, he wouldn't have gone through such trouble to get Tohdoh to join the Black Knights. No, fan of Lelouch though I am, I can't view the Katase incident as anything but a deliberate manúuvre to eliminate potential rivals for his leadership of the anti-Britannian forces in Japan - though granted, he also saw much of the JLF's commanding echelons as deadwood the movement as a whole would be helped not hindered for eliminating.[QUOTE]

The members of the JLF who hijacked the hotel were nutjobs though. The rest of the JLF were nothing like them.

Quote:
He still wasn't in a particularly good mental state. If he'd been at the top of his game, I'm pretty sure that even Schneizel's presence wouldn't have stopped him trying to escape the situation somehow. But when presented with those odds, it was a lot easier for him as he was at the moment to just give up on everything and say, "Oh, to hell with it. I lose. Goodbye, cruel world."
Lelouch had always known Schneizel to be the type who never plays games he loses, and always tends to come out ahead Xanatos style. Hence, Schneizel had him cornered and he knew it. I refer you to the last quote from my previous post.

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I disagree. I think if the betrayal, and perhaps admittedly R2 generally, had been handled with a little more care and attention, the whole thing could have been a lot more plausible without drastically changing the actual events. Aquaman's already listed some pretty good reasons as for why, so I'll just wrap this off for now rather than prattling for another half a page as I'm wont to.
It would have had to be for their own reasons then.
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Old 2012-05-19, 15:25   Link #7488
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The members of the JLF who hijacked the hotel were nutjobs though. The rest of the JLF were nothing like them.
I wouldn't go so far as to call them "total nutjobs" personally, but nevertheless, that's more or less precisely my point. Lelouch didn't kill Katase and the others because he felt they were dangerous extremists, he killed them because they were in his way.

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Lelouch had always known Schneizel to be the type who never plays games he loses, and always tends to come out ahead Xanatos style. Hence, Schneizel had him cornered and he knew it. I refer you to the last quote from my previous post.
If Lelouch were that convinced of Schneizel's intellectual superiority, he'd never have tried to take him on at all. I remain convinced that the speed at which Lelouch gave up is indicative of his mental state at the time. There's also the fact that he practically demanded that Rolo abandon him even after rescuing him - that to me says quite clearly that he hadn't merely consigned himself to his fate in the face of an impossible situation, but had actively given into despair.
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:00   Link #7489
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Even though he justifed giving up to himself by thinking there was not way out, when a way out presented itself, Lelouch suddenly didn't want it. The fact that he repeatedly demands Rolo just let him die, kind of speaks volumes about what he really wanted. It was only after Rolo killed himself saving him that he resolved to go on, because I guess he just couldn't find it in himself to waste that sacrifice. At least long enough to take down Charles. Suzaku and Marianne showing up complicated things further.

Had Lelouch truely believed Schnizel unbeatable he'd have never tried to take him on. And giving the Black Knights an explaination wouldn't have hurt anything. Even if they didn't accept it, he at least tried. And Tamaki at least seemed like he really wanted to still believe in him.

Lying that he used them all though would have just guaranteed death, which he pretty much knew.
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Old 2012-05-26, 08:46   Link #7490
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Well Lelouch lost Shirley, C.C. can't remember a thing, what happened to Nunnally, and Suzaku just nuked Japan. He had a lot on his plate, and than when they pointed their weapons at him there was nothing he could say to stop them. They were being lead by Ohgi after all and ever since he started banging the enemy he never trusted Zero again. You know even after Ohgi was shot by the wench, yet that's forgiveable yet Lelouch saving his rear multiple times in the past doesn't change that he might have used Geass on him apparently which is a death sentence.

Than to top it off Lelouch was forced to lie to Kallen because if he told her the truth she would have gladly stayed by his side when the shots were fired. They weren't being rational and after losing Shirley a while ago Lelouch wasn't about to lose Kallen as well, the other woman he loved. That and someone had to take care of the amnesic C.C. and no one else aboard that ship was trustworthy but Kallen.

So yeah, he was dealing with a lot of stuff. It's understandable that after all that, and being betrayed by those ungrateful SOBs that owed him everything, really killed his will to live. Rolo's death reminded him that things weren't over, and he still must take responsibility for going this far, and that if he just died than than Schnizel and Charles won and all of Nunnally's pain and suffering was all for nothing.


The worst part is that the incompetent and traitorous Ohgi actually got a happy ending, he gets married and becomes the head guy for Japan pretty much. While Kallen and Lelouch had all chances of a happy ending removed because of Ohgi's actions.
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Old 2012-05-26, 09:29   Link #7491
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The worst part is that the incompetent and traitorous Ohgi actually got a happy ending, he gets married and becomes the head guy for Japan pretty much. While Kallen and Lelouch had all chances of a happy ending removed because of Ohgi's actions.
That's actually the secret to peace. The whole thing about revenge, is that it never ends. You get peace by NOT trying to go after everyone. Ohgi got away with his crimes, but that's what happens when you want the war to end.

You get peace not by punishing everyone, but by knowing when to let it go. Yes, it was hard for all of us to watch him walk away with everything he didn't earn, but sometimes one has to decide if peace is what they truly wished, or vengeance.

No, it isn't fair. But few things in Code Geass are fair.
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Old 2012-05-26, 09:47   Link #7492
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Still doesn't change that it's BS that Ohgi was allowed happiness in the end. I really wished he died at the end of R1, at least that way he could have provided character development for Kallen instead of ruining her life and leading the man she loves to basically commit suicide while she's forced to watch.
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Old 2012-05-27, 05:46   Link #7493
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Still doesn't change that it's BS that Ohgi was allowed happiness in the end. I really wished he died at the end of R1, at least that way he could have provided character development for Kallen instead of ruining her life and leading the man she loves to basically commit suicide while she's forced to watch.
If you keep going around handing out punishments like a Wraith of God, the war would never end.

Peace or vengeance, you only get to choose one.
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Old 2012-05-27, 07:01   Link #7494
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they were using their emotions that time...
first they were nuke and almost all BK are annihilated ....
and they were looking for someone to blame...
then comes Ohgi...
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Old 2012-05-27, 21:32   Link #7495
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If you keep going around handing out punishments like a Wraith of God, the war would never end.

Peace or vengeance, you only get to choose one.
Well punishing a certain few people certainly wouldn't preclude peace. It would just have to be done on the down low.

Heck, that's my personal fic idea: have Ohgi resign from politics permanently under threat of a forged scandal, put Cornelia under house arrest (she's Nunnally's half-sister; not sure if the latter would want any worse), and have Villetta be Zerozaku's servant wench. Their baby? Adopted by Kallen, with the records altered to he/she being the child of Kallen and Lelouch, conceived before "Lelouch Lamperouge" died in the Mt. Fuji blast.

Justice is served, and peace hasn't been lost.
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Old 2012-05-28, 00:53   Link #7496
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If you keep going around handing out punishments like a Wraith of God, the war would never end.

Peace or vengeance, you only get to choose one.
Some people don't deserve to live, Ohgi is one of those. If anything his incompetence will start another war.

Glad that in Code Geass's first showing in Super Robot Wars they made it so if you did everything right you can talk Ohgi out of being an idiot and tell him it's either sticking with Zero or get off the ship. Even Kallen *****s out Ohgi when he has to choose to either betray Zero or give him a chance to explain. Kallen than refers to Zero as Lelouch who takes his mask off and explains everything with Tamaki saying "I knew it, see! I told you guys that Zero always had the heart in the right place, didn't I tell you that he's my best buddy?" and Lelouch getting shocked at Tamaki being the most loyal of the BKs next to Kallen.
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Old 2012-05-28, 00:55   Link #7497
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Yeah, I think we all agree on Ohgi.
Why he was allowed to live with Villetta at the end defies explanation.
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Old 2012-05-28, 01:00   Link #7498
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Yeah, I think we all agree on Ohgi.
Why he was allowed to live with Villetta at the end defies explanation.
I think they were trying to use Ohgi as the "Human" connection between the two sides. They could have easily used Lelouch and Kallen for that or even Suzaku and Euphie if they wanted to go that route. Though considering that they killed Lelouch and Euphie and officially Suzaku is dead too they didn't really have anyone else to use for that symbolism. They would have caused a real ****storm if they decided to settle with Kallen and Gino(Still facepalm over him sayinghe understands Kallen when their circumstances and situations are nothing a like).

So I guess Ohgi just lucked out because he got to survive to see the end and his relationship wasn't too controversal with the fanbase.
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Old 2012-05-28, 01:18   Link #7499
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I think they were trying to use Ohgi as the "Human" connection between the two sides. They could have easily used Lelouch and Kallen for that or even Suzaku and Euphie if they wanted to go that route. Though considering that they killed Lelouch and Euphie and officially Suzaku is dead too they didn't really have anyone else to use for that symbolism. They would have caused a real ****storm if they decided to settle with Kallen and Gino(Still facepalm over him sayinghe understands Kallen when their circumstances and situations are nothing a like).

So I guess Ohgi just lucked out because he got to survive to see the end and his relationship wasn't too controversal with the fanbase.
Yes Okouchi clearly intended for Ohgi to be the "human" connection.
No, Lelouch x Kallen would not have done that since they both viewed Britannia in the same way.
Gino x Kallen would have worked very well, I don't care what the Kalulu fanatics think about that pairing, Okouchi would have been wise to solidify it.
Pity he didn't.
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Old 2012-05-28, 01:24   Link #7500
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Yes Okouchi clearly intended for Ohgi to be the "human" connection.
No, Lelouch x Kallen would not have done that since they both viewed Britannia in the same way.
Gino x Kallen would have worked very well, I don't care what the Kalulu fanatics think about that pairing, Okouchi would have been wise to solidify it.
Pity he didn't.
That depends if word got out that Kallen is a half breed, she doesn't use her family name anymore after R2 and goes by her mother's last name.

Glad he wasn't wise than since that would have been extremely rushed and underdeveloped since he didn't join until CG was almost over, til that point he happily fought to kill Kallen in battle. Even than he didn't willingly join until Lelouch took the throne while Kallen willingly fought since she was a child. The best could have been done regarding that was him settling on having Gino act as Kallen's rival which is still fierce even in the ending Drama CD that takes place after R2. As for the Drama CD, guess they really wanted to let fans know that yes Lelouch is dead and to move on just like Kallen decided to move on.

But than they had to appease angry fans and make the Miraculous Birthday and have Kallen regress to "I can't forget you now" phase. They really don't want her to be happy without Lelouch, huh?
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