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Old 2012-05-28, 01:37   Link #7501
azul120
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Yeah, I think we all agree on Ohgi.
Why he was allowed to live with Villetta at the end defies explanation.
Fiction Isn't Fair. Truth In Television.

Here in the real world, Jay Leno was allowed to steal the Tonight Show spot twice.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Yes Okouchi clearly intended for Ohgi to be the "human" connection.
No, Lelouch x Kallen would not have done that since they both viewed Britannia in the same way.
Gino x Kallen would have worked very well, I don't care what the Kalulu fanatics think about that pairing, Okouchi would have been wise to solidify it.
Pity he didn't.
It's not Die for Our Ship that leads me to oppose the pairing. Kallen just found Gino immature and annoying. That didn't really stop in PD 9.
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Old 2012-05-28, 01:38   Link #7502
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
That depends if word got out that Kallen is a half breed, she doesn't use her family name anymore after R2 and goes by her mother's last name.
That's a stretch.
Euphie and Suzaku would have been a better pair for a real "human" connection between Japan and Britannia.

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Glad he wasn't wise than since that would have been extremely rushed and underdeveloped since he didn't join until CG was almost over, til that point he happily fought to kill Kallen in battle. Even than he didn't willingly join until Lelouch took the throne while Kallen willingly fought since she was a child. The best could have been done regarding that was him settling on having Gino act as Kallen's rival which is still fierce even in the ending Drama CD that takes place after R2. As for the Drama CD, guess they really wanted to let fans know that yes Lelouch is dead and to move on just like Kallen decided to move on.
Most of R2 was supposedly rushed through due to the timeslot change.
Actually Gino saved Kallen after she fell from the Damocles. He also made comments about how he liked her during the dinner for the Tianzi's wedding to Odyessyus.
Gino also asks Kallen to join Britannia when she is a prisoner.
Thus it is clear that Okouchi was starting to set them up, but it never was explored further for some reason.

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But than they had to appease angry fans and make the Miraculous Birthday and have Kallen regress to "I can't forget you now" phase. They really don't want her to be happy without Lelouch, huh?
Which was stupid IMHO.
Kallen didn't need Lelouch.
It was Zero she initially fell in love with, and Suzaku has that role now.
She knows the truth of the whole situation, why not have her finally be with Zero (aka Suzaku)?
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Old 2012-05-28, 01:39   Link #7503
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Fiction Isn't Fair. Truth In Television.

Here in the real world, Jay Leno was allowed to steal the Tonight Show spot twice.
I know, you want Ohgi and Villetta to die a horrible death at the hands of some mob out for justice.
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Old 2012-05-28, 01:41   Link #7504
orpheus2
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Yeah, I think we all agree on Ohgi.
Why he was allowed to live with Villetta at the end defies explanation.
As they say, "Life is unfair". Then again, Lelouch has always drew the short straw in life.
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Old 2012-05-28, 01:45   Link #7505
azul120
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Most of R2 was supposedly rushed through due to the timeslot change.
Actually Gino saved Kallen after she fell from the Damocles. He also made comments about how he liked her during the dinner for the Tianzi's wedding to Odyessyus.
Gino also asks Kallen to join Britannia when she is a prisoner.
Thus it is clear that Okouchi was starting to set them up, but it never was explored further for some reason.
Evidence of a one-sided relationship, with the possible exception of him saving her. But that was it.

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Which was stupid IMHO.
Kallen didn't need Lelouch.
It was Zero she initially fell in love with, and Suzaku has that role now.
She knows the truth of the whole situation, why not have her finally be with Zero (aka Suzaku)?
You're extrapolating her season one Zero fixation.

Let's not forget that season 2 had her learning about and resolving Lelouch and his Zero identity in his head. Or that she WANTED TO JOIN HIM after he became Emperor, and was no longer Zero.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I know, you want Ohgi and Villetta to die a horrible death at the hands of some mob out for justice.
Not quite that, haha.

But still, Ohgi was more plebeian than "human". Apparently they wanted Shiro Armada, but ended up with George W. Bush. XD

You know what a more ideal JapanxBritannia pairing would have been? Sayoko x Jeremiah.
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Old 2012-05-28, 01:52   Link #7506
Destined_Fate
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
That's a stretch.
Euphie and Suzaku would have been a better pair for a real "human" connection between Japan and Britannia.



Most of R2 was supposedly rushed through due to the timeslot change.
Actually Gino saved Kallen after she fell from the Damocles. He also made comments about how he liked her during the dinner for the Tianzi's wedding to Odyessyus.
Gino also asks Kallen to join Britannia when she is a prisoner.
Thus it is clear that Okouchi was starting to set them up, but it never was explored further for some reason.



Which was stupid IMHO.
Kallen didn't need Lelouch.
It was Zero she initially fell in love with, and Suzaku has that role now.
She knows the truth of the whole situation, why not have her finally be with Zero (aka Suzaku)?
R2 was rushed which is maybe why they had Lelouch die in the end. No argueing there. Still, there was nothing that could be done for Gino since his attraction was based initially on her being extremely hot and that he wanted to prove he was the better pilot. There was no way a relationship could have worked out because Lelouch was still around and who was now Kallen's everything.


Kallen loved Zero but R2 was her learning that the Zero she loved was actually the real Lelouch. Just like in R1 Lelouch didn't really like the frail "fake" Kallen and did everything he could to get a rise out of her to get the "real" Kallen to come out. By the end of R2 it didn't matter if Lelouch continued to be Zero or not, she loved the "real" him just like he fell in love with the "real" her. They realy went a long way since he intially thought of her as a pawn and she thought Lelouch was a scumbag.

Also, Suzaku as Zero isn't the same as Lelouch as Zero. For starters Suzaku lacked the heart and character as Lelouch and lets face it. Suzaku is a bumbling idiot when placed next to Lelouch. Just because he wears the Zero name doesn't mean Kallen forgives Suzaku for all he's done. If she just loved "Zero" just because he's called Zero than she would have tried to get with all the 100 Zero's before they were exiled which clearly didn't happen.
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Old 2012-05-28, 02:04   Link #7507
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
R2 was rushed which is maybe why they had Lelouch die in the end. No argueing there. Still, there was nothing that could be done for Gino since his attraction was based initially on her being extremely hot and that he wanted to prove he was the better pilot. There was no way a relationship could have worked out because Lelouch was still around and who was now Kallen's everything.
That's why I said they never explored it further.
It's a loose end.

Quote:
Kallen loved Zero but R2 was her learning that the Zero she loved was actually the real Lelouch. Just like in R1 Lelouch didn't really like the frail "fake" Kallen and did everything he could to get a rise out of her to get the "real" Kallen to come out. By the end of R2 it didn't matter if Lelouch continued to be Zero or not, she loved the "real" him just like he fell in love with the "real" her. They realy went a long way since he intially thought of her as a pawn and she thought Lelouch was a scumbag.
I contend that Lelouch loved the three main females in his life (Shirley, Kallen, and CC), and that we saw his romantic feelings develop from high-school sweetheart, Shirley, to teenage badgirl, Kallen, to sophisticated woman, CC.
That is the evolution of his love-life as presented in the anime.

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Also, Suzaku as Zero isn't the same as Lelouch as Zero. For starters Suzaku lacked the heart and character as Lelouch and lets face it. Suzaku is a bumbling idiot when placed next to Lelouch. Just because he wears the Zero name doesn't mean Kallen forgives Suzaku for all he's done. If she just loved "Zero" just because he's called Zero than she would have tried to get with all the 100 Zero's before they were exiled which clearly didn't happen.
I agree in part.
Suzaku is an idiot, but he is the closest person Kallen has to Lelouch and thus the possibility exists.
Kallen really can't love Lelouch, who killed so many, and hate Suzaku for the same thing.
Being an old maid is not how I'd like to see Kallen spend the rest of her days after Lelouch's death.
Give the girl a break and let her have some actual romance in her life: Suzaku, Gino, whoever now that Lelouch is gone.
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Old 2012-05-28, 02:37   Link #7508
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And why I'm glad they didn't because they wouldn't be able to deal with the ****storm if they did. As far as the fanbase is concerned Kallen could only love Lelouch even after he's long dead and buried.

It's degrees of love, I don't agree he loved C.C. in the romantic sense compared to Kallen or Shirley who have expressed that they wanted more from Lelouch, and him wanting more as well but circumstance got in the way at every turn, while C.C. was content with things remaining as is even up to his death.

Actually she can, that's why even when she felt like she had to stop Lelouch she didn't stop loving him and was even on the verge of tears. It's all because of how long they've been together and she believed fully in his dream. Suzaku though has done many unforgiveable things in her eyes and she never spent that much time with him or bonded with him. So it's understandable and very realistic for her to love Lelouch yet hate Suzaku.

And even with Lelouch gone it doesn't mean she should settle for the man she hates, Suzaku, or the prick that thinks only with his lower head, Gino. Nothing says she has to end up with either of them and realisticly she would move on to someone that doesn't remind her too much of what happened since it would remind her of Lelouch and what could have been.
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Old 2012-05-28, 03:08   Link #7509
GundamFan0083
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And why I'm glad they didn't because they wouldn't be able to deal with the ****storm if they did. As far as the fanbase is concerned Kallen could only love Lelouch even after he's long dead and buried.

It's degrees of love, I don't agree he loved C.C. in the romantic sense compared to Kallen or Shirley who have expressed that they wanted more from Lelouch, and him wanting more as well but circumstance got in the way at every turn, while C.C. was content with things remaining as is even up to his death.
CC was not content with how things ended up.
She cried while praying for Lelouch in episode 25, you should know that.
I agree there are degrees of love, and they go like this (for men):

The woman you have sex with.
The woman you love.
The woman you marry (want to spend your life with).

The woman you have sex with is one you are only interested in for sex. In Lelouch's case this would be Kallen since he incontrovertibly solicits Kallen for sex in R2, and has no qualms about sending her into battle. Even though she might get killed. He also lets her go quite easily in episode 25, after she kisses him and he says "goodbye Kallen."

The woman you love is also a woman you find sexually attractive, but she means more to you than that and thus you care about her safety, and will do anything to protect her. In Lelouch's case this is Shirley. Lelouch clearly finds her attractive, even agrees to go on a date with her, and uses his Geass on her to make her forget him because he loves her and doesn't want her to get hurt.

The woman you marry is also a woman you love, and a woman you find sexually attractive. For Lelouch, this is CC. He clearly has sexual feelings for her in the cave after the battle of Narita (speaks her name like a lover), wants to protect her (as he clearly does when he confronts Mao and Charles), and also wants to make her happy by fulfilling her deepest wish (which he confesses to her in C's World). The subtle nuances of their relationship are quite telling of the mature romantic level their relationship is at and kudos to Okouchi and Taniguichi for pulling that off.

Those are the three degrees of Lelouch's feelings towards the three women, and it is from a slow development that starts in episode 1 of S1 and continues all the way to ep 25 of R2.

If you cannot come to grips with that DF, then you do not understand how great a romantic writer Okouchi actually is and you have stalled on grasping only the first level of romantic development.

Da boobies.
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Old 2012-05-28, 03:38   Link #7510
azul120
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That's why I said they never explored it further.
It's a loose end.



I contend that Lelouch loved the three main females in his life (Shirley, Kallen, and CC), and that we saw his romantic feelings develop from high-school sweetheart, Shirley, to teenage badgirl, Kallen, to sophisticated woman, CC.
That is the evolution of his love-life as presented in the anime.



I agree in part.
Suzaku is an idiot, but he is the closest person Kallen has to Lelouch and thus the possibility exists.
Kallen really can't love Lelouch, who killed so many, and hate Suzaku for the same thing.
Being an old maid is not how I'd like to see Kallen spend the rest of her days after Lelouch's death.
Give the girl a break and let her have some actual romance in her life: Suzaku, Gino, whoever now that Lelouch is gone.
Kallen hated Suzaku for being a traitor and a hypocrite (not to mention almost injecting her with Refrain).

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
CC was not content with how things ended up.
She cried while praying for Lelouch in episode 25, you should know that.
I agree there are degrees of love, and they go like this (for men):

The woman you have sex with.
The woman you love.
The woman you marry (want to spend your life with).

The woman you have sex with is one you are only interested in for sex. In Lelouch's case this would be Kallen since he incontrovertibly solicits Kallen for sex in R2, and has no qualms about sending her into battle. Even though she might get killed. He also lets her go quite easily in episode 25, after she kisses him and he says "goodbye Kallen."

The woman you love is also a woman you find sexually attractive, but she means more to you than that and thus you care about her safety, and will do anything to protect her. In Lelouch's case this is Shirley. Lelouch clearly finds her attractive, even agrees to go on a date with her, and uses his Geass on her to make her forget him because he loves her and doesn't want her to get hurt.
Maybe he sends her into battle because he BELIEVES in her, not to mention she believes in both Lelouch and the cause 100%.

Besides, he let her go because he didn't want her to die with him. You CANNOT compare his state during Zero Requiem to his state before them.

He let C. C. remain with him because the latter, by contrast, had nothing to lose, being a perpetual vagabond of society.
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Old 2012-05-28, 03:51   Link #7511
Destined_Fate
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She cried because Lelouch died not because she wanted to get romantically involved with him. And no he didn't like Kallen go easily, that's why he says nothing because if he started to speak he wouldn't have been able to control himself or go on with ZR. He took the hard road and stayed silent so that Kallen could live on since he has shown that he doesn't want her to suffer the same fate as Shirley or to betray her country.

And you got it wrong.

Lelouch didn't just want to have sex with Kallen, he loved her with all his heart as he loved Shirley with all his heart. However Lelouch didn't love C.C. in that way and neither did C.C. who outright says MULTIPLE TIMES that she doesn't have that kind of relationship with Lelouch nor does she want it. Lelouch doesn't even entertain the thought of them being romantically involved or seeing her as an object to stick it in.

You're doing a huge disservice to Lelouch's character by implying that sex is all he wants out of anyone(Especially Kallen when that's far from the case since she was his true love). Even when he asked Kallen that it was because he was extremely depressed and wanted anything that would comfort him. From Refrain to actually feeling the comfort of a woman that he's attracted to and frustrated that nothing has come out of his relationship yet with her despite both wanting more but circumstance getting in the way of it.

And no, Lelouch didn't want to marry C.C. She was a motherly figure to him, there was zero sexual tension or desire between them in that way. It would have been like screwing your own mother and I doubt Lelouch would do something like that even if some shipped him with Euphie until he killed her.

The degress are this.

Shirley - First Love, fail love that never had a chance. The one that pushed him into depression and reaching the conclusion that he must die so that those close to him wont have to any more.

Kallen - True love and the one he could never have due to circumstance. Unlike Shirley, Kallen lived a double life like Lelouch and both were attracted to the "real" version and hated the fake. Kallen and Lelouch's relationship has been a part of focus since R1 and R2 brought out their insecurities and made it all come front in center. None of the other choices had anywhere near the interactions as this pair did and in the end he truely loved her enough that he did everything to ensure she could live on in the better world he created even at the cost of trying to make her hate him(that failed horribly).

C.C. - Motherly figure, Lelouch never once considered being romantically involved with her or to get physical for her. He was important to her but that's as far as it went which C.C. has stated more than once that was as far as their relationship would ever go and did ever go.

From this point on we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I know what I saw and you know what you saw, we just interpeted things differently and nothing you say or I say will change that.
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Old 2012-05-28, 09:05   Link #7512
rinichan
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the problem is if Kallen is the woman he love.... why doesnt he trust her?
clearly shown in episode 1 or 2 in r2 and maybe other episodes as well,
the guy doesnt go to where she is when she needed him (kallen abducted by brittania)....
sends somebody else to rescue her (Sayako)...
and leave her on the other side (even though Kallen want it so badly to go with him - ep 23 of r2 I think)....
Kallen will be a better knight than Suzaku if he really trust her....

This just show... that lelouch loves kallen, not as lover but friend...

CC is the one he trust not Kallen, and if ever Shirley was alive and they showed her joining the BK??? what could be the situation???
Just the same...

The amount of trust given to her - Kallen and Shirley will just get jealous over CC (Shirley doesnt know that she exist)...
and CC is Lelouch equal... other hard core fans interpret this differently....

just opinion of mine...
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Old 2012-05-28, 10:30   Link #7513
GundamFan0083
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She cried because Lelouch died not because she wanted to get romantically involved with him. And no he didn't like Kallen go easily, that's why he says nothing because if he started to speak he wouldn't have been able to control himself or go on with ZR. He took the hard road and stayed silent so that Kallen could live on since he has shown that he doesn't want her to suffer the same fate as Shirley or to betray her country.
Now you're just lying and making this up as you go.
He rejected Kallen's advance and forced her away in episode 25, there is no disputing that.
You saying that Lelouch would loose control is projecting your own beliefs onto the character without any basis in actual fact.
You are delusion, and irrational on this matter.

Lelouch did have feelings for Kallen, but they weren't strong enough for him to make any advance towards her outside of asking her for sex when he was in dispair.
That's not love, that's wanting to get your wick wet and it's the same reason men hire hookers.
Anyone who is too immature to understand that needs to grow up.

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Lelouch didn't just want to have sex with Kallen, he loved her with all his heart as he loved Shirley with all his heart. However Lelouch didn't love C.C. in that way and neither did C.C. who outright says MULTIPLE TIMES that she doesn't have that kind of relationship with Lelouch nor does she want it. Lelouch doesn't even entertain the thought of them being romantically involved or seeing her as an object to stick it in.
Totally unsubstantiated bullshit.
You reallly have it bad don't you.
I show the anime and you can't accept the truth.
You start babbling about your own pet theories as if they have more weight than the anime itself.

Let me put it another way.
You're not Okouchi, you don't know what Lelouch felt, and therefore you make an ass of yourself by saying you do know without showing proof.

I gave you proof, but I'm not going to bother digging up all the Youtube clips of CC x Lelouch because you are so wrapped up in your own belief that holding your hand and pointing out every step of the development of their relationship would be fruitless.
I'm not a teenager with all the time in the world to waste, so I'll not waste any more on a child that simply says "NO" like a 3 year old every time I show him the truth.

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You're doing a huge disservice to Lelouch's character by implying that sex is all he wants out of anyone(Especially Kallen when that's far from the case since she was his true love). Even when he asked Kallen that it was because he was extremely depressed and wanted anything that would comfort him. From Refrain to actually feeling the comfort of a woman that he's attracted to and frustrated that nothing has come out of his relationship yet with her despite both wanting more but circumstance getting in the way of it.
True love?
I'd ask for proof of this but I already know you can't back it up.

There is a big difference between soliciting a woman for a piece of ass and telling her your inner most secrets.
CC knew all of Lelouch's secrets, he shared everything with her.
Kallen didn't know the half of it.
The relationship between CC and Lelouch is vastly different than that of Kallen and Lelouch.
Never does Lelouch buy Kallen clothes, or let her live with him, or confide in her his plans, or share a tender moment.
Lelouch's relationship with Kallen is coarse.

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And no, Lelouch didn't want to marry C.C. She was a motherly figure to him, there was zero sexual tension or desire between them in that way. It would have been like screwing your own mother and I doubt Lelouch would do something like that even if some shipped him with Euphie until he killed her.
Really?
How many poetic moments did Kallen and Lelouch share?
Oh, that's right, none.
How many poetic moments did CC and Lelouch share?
At least one, when CC asks Lelouch "Why is snow white?"
He responds later "I don't know why snow is white, all I know is that I don't hate it."
The meaning, he doesn't hate CC, and it's a tender moment between them in the cave after the battle of Narita that Kallen once again cockblocks.
I realize you have to be of a mature mind to understand the meanings in these tender moments between CC and Lelouch.
You clearly missed the meaning behind that and many other scenes in the show and it's a pity because Okouchi did an excellent job in writing them.

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The degress are this.
You clearly do not understand women or romance.
I strongly suggest you buy a few books by Jane Austin or Danielle Steele and learn what romance is about.

Then go back and watch Code Geass again.
Once you get a grasp from a woman's perspective, you'll see what I'm talking about.

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From this point on we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I know what I saw and you know what you saw, we just interpeted things differently and nothing you say or I say will change that.
Then don't bring it up again.
When I know I'm right I don't budge.
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Old 2012-05-28, 10:39   Link #7514
Destined_Fate
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Don't be petty since clearly I'm right. See? Nothing changes, best to move on and accept that I will be right as far as I'm concerned and you can go believe you're right as far as you're concerned.
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Old 2012-05-28, 11:04   Link #7515
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Okay, I'm not going to get too involved in this since, frankly, I consider shipping debates a great example of the old maxim that, "The less important the matter of a debate is, the more irrational the participants become over it." (Well, I'm paraphrasing a little there, but you get the point.) As for my own views, I tend to take the egalitarian approach of Lelouch x harem, so yeah. That said, if I had to pick a single pairing, it probably would be Lelouch x C.C., just because it appeals to me most on an aesthetic level.

Now with all that said...

Please calm down, everyone. Calling one another liars, petty, delusional, people who don't understand the anime, people who don't understand life, so on and so forth, is not helping one iota. It's just rather unseemly. Despite my first paragraph's disclaimer, I do accept that there are intelligent things to be said on this topic, and indeed intelligent things have been said here; it's just a pity that they apparently have to be couched in juvenile attacks on the non-believers for daring to question the canonicity of a particular pairing. In reality, I hardly think anyone is going to have their house burn down just because someone on the internet disagrees with them about an anime and how to ship the characters therein. So just chill, yeah?

(Goodness knows temperatures are high enough already in this heat, after all... =w=' )
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Old 2012-05-28, 11:42   Link #7516
Destined_Fate
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And I still stand that C.C. isn't canonically paired with Lelouch in a romantic sense. She took up the motherly role and even when asked directly more than once or not asked she said their relationship was never like that. If anything that makes C.C. a better character because she isn't there just for Lelouch to get with.

But whatever, I'm done with it and will settle with that I'm right because I say I'm right and nothing will change that.
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Old 2012-05-28, 11:51   Link #7517
GundamFan0083
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Okay, I'm not going to get too involved in this since, frankly, I consider shipping debates a great example of the old maxim that, "The less important the matter of a debate is, the more irrational the participants become over it." (Well, I'm paraphrasing a little there, but you get the point.) As for my own views, I tend to take the egalitarian approach of Lelouch x harem, so yeah. That said, if I had to pick a single pairing, it probably would be Lelouch x C.C., just because it appeals to me most on an aesthetic level.
I agree with you Yamiken, and I also take the Lelouch x Harem approach with a strong leaning to CC being the final/last girl standing at the end.
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:03   Link #7518
Roloko vi Britannia
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I like the LelouchxHarem idea too only if it is with him, Kallen, Milly, Euphie, and CC. I don't want Shirley in there cause I cringe at the thought of her and Lelouch being together in a harem much less as a single paring.
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:04   Link #7519
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Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia View Post
I like the LelouchxHarem idea too only if it is with him, Kallen, Milly, Euphie, and CC. I don't want Shirley in there cause I cringe at the thought of her and Lelouch being together in a harem much less as a single paring.
AH! You forgot ROLO!
How dare you!
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:28   Link #7520
Destined_Fate
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roloko vi Britannia View Post
I like the LelouchxHarem idea too only if it is with him, Kallen, Milly, Euphie, and CC. I don't want Shirley in there cause I cringe at the thought of her and Lelouch being together in a harem much less as a single paring.
Euphie is his relative, that would be incest.
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