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Old 2012-10-02, 00:22   Link #7581
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
You mean where she says "Is that it? Is that what Lelouch and Suzaku had to do?"
I wouldn't call that figuring out ZR on her part.
She realized they were going to trade places, but I don't think she expected Suzaku to kill Lelouch.
She's crying when Tohdoh says "is that who I think it is?"
Kallen then says "It's him. It's Zero."
She lied, not for any other reason than her assuming it's what Lelouch wanted.
She does it out of love, no other reason is given.
Except that's exactly what it is, and in fact the only thing it could be. Kallen must have understood, because it would be illogical to the plot as a whole for her not to.

If she does not understand that Lelouch is getting himself killed for a very specific purpose, which is the entire point of his plan, then it would be illogical to cover for Suzaku as she does. Why would she go along with Suzaku getting to be a hero for killing Lelouch if she doesn't understand why their plan has unfolded so? She clearly understands exactly who's behind that mask, and why they act in such a manner. She isn't doing it out of blind love, she's seen the bigger picture, and this is the only rational conclusion one can draw from these events unless you're hellbent on making Kallen a lovesick moron.

In fact, were she doing it out of love, she'd bear a huge grudge against Suzaku for getting the better end of that deal, but since she doesn't she must understand more than the bare minimum you're trying to imply.
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Old 2012-10-02, 00:34   Link #7582
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Except that's exactly what it is, and in fact the only thing it could be. Kallen must have understood, because it would be illogical to the plot as a whole for her not to.
I wouldn't call the ending of R2 logical.

It's not there, you can assume it if you like, but the anime doesn't back it up.
Again we have the Taniguichi "we left it up to the viewers to decide," which clearly doesn't work as a plot device since the ambiguity creates too much argument and thus ruins the show for many.

Quote:
If she does not understand that Lelouch is getting himself killed for a very specific purpose, which is the entire point of his plan, then it would be illogical to cover for Suzaku as she does. Why would she go along with Suzaku getting to be a hero for killing Lelouch if she doesn't understand why their plan has unfolded so? She clearly understands exactly who's behind that mask, and why they act in such a manner. She isn't doing it out of blind love, she's seen the bigger picture, and this is the only rational conclusion one can draw from these events unless you're hellbent on making Kallen a lovesick moron.
No, it wouldn't be illogical for her to cover for him simply because she loves him.
She must realize that it's what Lelouch wanted (Suzaku as Zero), but the why isn't known to her.

Rationally, we don't make large assumptions beyond what the anime tells us unless we're expressing it as opinion and/or a possibility.
It is not fact, nor is it presented as such.
Nothing indicates that she sees the larger picture until after it's all over, and I mean how the world comes together after Lelouch is long dead, not right there at the moment of his death.

Nobody understood the plan of ZR save for Suzaku and CC, and perhaps Jeremiah because those are the only people Lelouch told.

I didn't say Kallen was a moron, that's going too far.
She is lovesick though and that's crystal clear.
To assume that she magically figures out ZR just by Suzaku showing up as Zero and killing Lelouch is irrational in and of itself.

I realize you disagree, but I'm not going to budge on this since it is foolish to do so when the anime doesn't support your assumption as fact.
If it's your opinion, then say so, and we'll agree to disagree.
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Old 2012-10-02, 00:59   Link #7583
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
It's not there, you can assume it if you like, but the anime doesn't back it up.
Again we have the Taniguichi "we left it up to the viewers to decide," which clearly doesn't work as a plot device since the ambiguity creates too much argument and thus ruins the show for many.
It is there. You've decided to stick to the literal dialogue to ignore it. She did figure it out. That's the point of focusing on her for that scene, while everyone else is like "Wah?" The scene demonstrates that she has figured out what's going on, while everyone else doesn't understand. Even Tohdoh, who recognizes his student, is clearly baffled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No, it wouldn't be illogical for her to cover for him simply because she loves him.
She must realize that it's what Lelouch wanted (Suzaku as Zero), but the why isn't known to her.
Yeah, it would be. She's screaming in distress before he does the deed, so she doesn't like the plan. Unless she understands the broader need for it, then your characterization of her actions makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Rationally, we don't make large assumptions beyond what the anime tells us unless we're expressing it as opinion and/or a possibility.
It is not fact, nor is it presented as such.
Nothing indicates that she sees the larger picture until after it's all over, and I mean how the world comes together after Lelouch is long dead, not right there at the moment of his death.
It is presented as such. It is you who have chosen to ignore it. The scene demonstrates understanding and nothing less. The timeskip scene only serves to reinforce that, and to show that she's forgiven him for it.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Nobody understood the plan of ZR save for Suzaku and CC, and perhaps Jeremiah because those are the only people Lelouch told.
And Nunnally, because she saw it. No dialogue there, but she knows the truth. This is the problem with your decision to focus on the words above all else.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
She is lovesick though and that's crystal clear.
To assume that she magically figures out ZR just by Suzaku showing up as Zero and killing Lelouch is irrational in and of itself.

I realize you disagree, but I'm not going to budge on this since it is foolish to do so when the anime doesn't support your assumption as fact.
If it's your opinion, then say so, and we'll agree to disagree.
It does support my assumption. It's a staple of the scene. You've locked onto the dialogue to ignore it, but it is there and no amount of quote mining is going to change it. She demonstrates her understanding in both her words and her actions. It's plain as day. We can agree to disagree, but my position is no opinion. It's what the show demonstrates to us. Arguing that it's any less is only an attempt to cheapen Kallen's motivations at the end.
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Old 2012-10-02, 01:14   Link #7584
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It is there. You've decided to stick to the literal dialogue to ignore it. She did figure it out. That's the point of focusing on her for that scene, while everyone else is like "Wah?" The scene demonstrates that she has figured out what's going on, while everyone else doesn't understand. Even Tohdoh, who recognizes his student, is clearly baffled.
You mean I'm not making gross assumptions where none is warranted.
She figures out the trading of places, but that's about it until Suzaku kills Lelouch.
After that, everybody on the podium that knew that Lelouch was Zero knew that Kallen is lying.
So why don't they all blurt out that it's Suzaku?
Does everybody there figure out the plan of ZR at the same time?
I think not.
Therefore, to say that Kallen "figures out ZR" is a reach to far.
It assumes that she had intimate knowledge of Lelouch's plan before Suzaku kills Lelouch and we know for a fact that Kallen doesn't have that information.

Quote:
Yeah, it would be. She's screaming in distress before he does the deed, so she doesn't like the plan. Unless she understands the broader need for it, then your characterization of her actions makes no sense.

It is presented as such. It is you who have chosen to ignore it. The scene demonstrates understanding and nothing less. The timeskip scene only serves to reinforce that, and to show that she's forgiven him for it.
Again, this is pure assumption, and while I agree that Kallen figured out Lelouch's plan after she saw the results of it.
There is no way she knew what was happening while it was going on.
Her screaming is because the man she loves is about to die and she can see that as soon as Suzaku levels the sword at him.
Everybody saw that.

Quote:
And Nunnally, because she saw it. No dialogue there, but she knows the truth. This is the problem with your decision to focus on the words above all else.
Yeah, because Nunnally has the power to see people's inner thoughts by touching them.
Kallen does not.

Quote:
It does support my assumption. It's a staple of the scene. You've locked onto the dialogue to ignore it, but it is there and no amount of quote mining is going to change it. She demonstrates her understanding in both her words and her actions. It's plain as day. We can agree to disagree, but my position is no opinion. It's what the show demonstrates to us. Arguing that it's any less is only an attempt to cheapen Kallen's motivations at the end.
No one's cheapening Kallen's motives.
Love is as good a motive as any.
She was obsessed with Lelouch at the end of R2, that is clear as day.
Lelouch knows this which is why he rejects her.

Clearly, what I've "locked on to" here is the problem with Kallen fans.
They read far too much into too little, and assume things that are not supported by anything of substance in the anime.
They are the only Code Geass fans I seem to have trouble with in regards to Lelouch. All the other shippers seem to respect each others opinions and accept the anime as it is shown.

With that it is obvious that we have reached a modus vivendi at this point and are now way off the topic of Lelouch.
We disagree, let that be the end of it.
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Old 2012-10-02, 01:32   Link #7585
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
You mean I'm not making gross assumptions where none is warranted.
She figures out the trading of places, but that's about it until Suzaku kills Lelouch.
After that, everybody on the podium that knew that Lelouch was Zero knew that Kallen is lying.
So why don't they all blurt out that it's Suzaku?
Does everybody there figure out the plan of ZR at the same time?
I think not.
Therefore, to say that Kallen "figures out ZR" is a reach to far.
It assumes that she had intimate knowledge of Lelouch's plan before Suzaku kills Lelouch and we know for a fact that Kallen doesn't have that information.
Tohdoh's the only one who actually hears her. He's next to her. The others aren't. And, since we're going only by what's said here, then there's nothing showing that Tohdoh told anyone else. Hence, they do not blurt it out because they're ignorant and don't get to hear Kallen.

If we're to go by straight dialogue, you're just as guilty of assumptions as I am.

"Is that it? Is that what Lelouch and Suzaku had to do?"

This line of dialogue indicates that she's figured something out. But Suzaku is only standing there, so nothing has happened yet to say what. Rationally, this means that she knows why they're doing this. But here's where we're both making assumptions. You assume this means she only figures out that Lelouch and Suzaku intend to switch places. Why? She does not say this, nor does her dialogue convey that fact. She realizes that they had to do something, but you have chosen to believe that does not include the full depth of their plan.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Again, this is pure assumption, and while I agree that Kallen figured out Lelouch's plan after she saw the results of it.
There is no way she knew what was happening while it was going on.
Her screaming is because the man she loves is about to die and she can see that as soon as Suzaku levels the sword at him.
Everybody saw that.
As I've pointed out, it's as much assumption on your part as it is mine, if we are going to limit ourselves as such. She did figure out what was happening. That is what the scene shows. I have decided to take this to its logical conclusion. You have decided to see it for the bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Yeah, because Nunnally has the power to see people's inner thoughts by touching them.
Kallen does not.
She doesn't, but she knows Lelouch well enough to see the purpose behind what he's doing when given enough information. She turns on Lelouch for the final arc because there's no rationality to his motives. He's a man that flipped from saving her life from people that wanted to kill her to a tyrant.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No one's cheapening Kallen's motives.
Love is as good a motive as any.
She was obsessed with Lelouch at the end of R2, that is clear as day.
Lelouch knows this which is why he rejects her.
I wouldn't really call it a good motive if she is letting Suzaku be a hero solely because that's what Lelouch wanted, rather than seeing why.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Clearly, what I've "locked on to" here is the problem with Kallen fans.
They read far too much into too little, and assume things that are not supported by anything of substance in the anime.
They are the only Code Geass fans I seem to have trouble with in regards to Lelouch. All the other shippers seem to respect each others opinions and accept the anime as it is shown.

With that it is obvious that we have reached a modus vivendi at this point and are now way off the topic of Lelouch.
We disagree, let that be the end of it.
Indeed, we have no choice but to, but as I've shown, I'm not the only one making assumptions here. We both have a conclusion that can be drawn from the scene and supported by what's shown.
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Old 2012-10-02, 01:41   Link #7586
GundamFan0083
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For sake of argument, let's chalk this off to R2 just being a total trainwreck.
Perhaps, given a second run, there would have been more concrete evidence to support Kallen knowning Lelouch's plan.
Sadly, we don't have that in what we were given.

Therefore, any further discussion is going to be frutiless at this point.
I'm not going to convince you, and you're clearly not going to change my mind.
We must then agree to disagree and move on, otherwise we'll just be going around in circles without getting anywhere or adding anything meaningful to the discussion.
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Old 2012-10-02, 11:49   Link #7587
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
For sake of argument, let's chalk this off to R2 just being a total trainwreck.
Perhaps, given a second run, there would have been more concrete evidence to support Kallen knowning Lelouch's plan.
Sadly, we don't have that in what we were given.
lolwhat
You are kidding right? I suppose you are conveniently leaving out the fact that Kallen, in her voice-over in the end, says "Maybe you are smiling now seeing as everything went according to your elaborate plan."
Clear as day. She had it figured out, that's not up to interpretation.
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Old 2012-10-02, 12:53   Link #7588
morbosfist
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lolwhat
You are kidding right? I suppose you are conveniently leaving out the fact that Kallen, in her voice-over in the end, says "Maybe you are smiling now seeing as everything went according to your elaborate plan."
Clear as day. She had it figured out, that's not up to interpretation.
You've kinda missed the point of our whole debate there. There's no question that she knew then. GundamFan's point is that she only figured it out after the fact, rather than right when it happened.
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Old 2012-10-02, 13:49   Link #7589
somersault
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You've kinda missed the point of our whole debate there. There's no question that she knew then. GundamFan's point is that she only figured it out after the fact, rather than right when it happened.
Oh my bad, there was too much tl;dr there, that I thought he was arguing about that as well, wouldn't put it past him since he seems to be clearly biased towards certain events.

Still, the conclusion remains the same; Kallen figured it out, she knew at that point when she saw Zerozaku and Lelouch "pretending" to be shocked by the presence of "Zero", that something fishy was up; Lelouch dying sealed the deal for her, hence "he's the real Zero"-line of hers, which is basically a way of saying "damn, he really held his end of a bargain to free the world even if he pretended to be a cold bastard, he was the real deal all along".
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Old 2012-10-02, 18:52   Link #7590
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Quite possibly the best giveaway was Zero dodging incoming fire and jumping over a Knightmare. Everyone knew Lelouch was a wimp at physical stuff, he couldn't even run worth a damn!
The scene of "Zero" running Lelouch through was what sealed and yes Kallen did figure it out as did Toudou.
As for who loved who first: Shirley, then C.C. then Kallen.
It may prove interesting IF, if Lelouch were to come back how Kallen might react though.
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Old 2012-10-02, 19:23   Link #7591
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Oh my bad, there was too much tl;dr there, that I thought he was arguing about that as well, wouldn't put it past him since he seems to be clearly biased towards certain events.

Still, the conclusion remains the same; Kallen figured it out, she knew at that point when she saw Zerozaku and Lelouch "pretending" to be shocked by the presence of "Zero", that something fishy was up; Lelouch dying sealed the deal for her, hence "he's the real Zero"-line of hers, which is basically a way of saying "damn, he really held his end of a bargain to free the world even if he pretended to be a cold bastard, he was the real deal all along".
You do assume a great deal don't you.

I wonder, do you use that level of assumption with regard to Lelouch when speaking of both Shirley and CC or is it only with Kallen?
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Old 2012-10-02, 21:19   Link #7592
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She would punch him for dying on her than hug him for coming back to her.

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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
I think Leouch love Karen but not romantically enough, but he really cares for her.. as being one of his most important loyal supporter and friend....
Lelouch will never love anyone more than his sister and it's his destiny to always remain a virgin til his death.
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Old 2012-10-02, 22:31   Link #7593
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Lelouch will never love anyone more than his sister and it's his destiny to always remain a virgin til his death.
Actually that IS true.
Lelouch did not get with any of the women that were chasing him.
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Old 2012-10-03, 07:57   Link #7594
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You do assume a great deal don't you.

I wonder, do you use that level of assumption with regard to Lelouch when speaking of both Shirley and CC or is it only with Kallen?
If you're implying I am a biased Kalulu fan, then let me tell you I am not wearing the obsessed-fan-goggles, even though according to my beliefs and the hints I perceived from the show, Kallen/Lelouch was the morst likely couple to take place, had he not died.
That doesn't mean, that I reject Shirley or C.C. as possible love "interests"- Shirley more so, (in regards to Lelouch's persona in school and seeing he had a soft spot her generated by the drama that he indirectly caused her) while C.C. had a deeper bond with him, but not really one of a romantic nature; many could argue with the latter though, seeing as Sunrise did everything they could to milk the huge C.C./Lelouch fanbase, what with those nakedass covers and all.

Lelouch did definitely had a siscon complex though, that is true. Of course that doesn't equal him wanting to get into his sister's pants, like many seem to believe using the whole "omg, didn't you see, he only had eyes for his sister, his harem had no chance!!111". Totally missing the point there.

Last edited by somersault; 2012-10-03 at 10:01.
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Old 2012-10-03, 10:51   Link #7595
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If you're implying I am a biased Kalulu fan, then let me tell you I am not wearing the obsessed-fan-goggles, even though according to my beliefs and the hints I perceived from the show, Kallen/Lelouch was the morst likely couple to take place, had he not died.
*Ahem*
I'm glad you finally gave me your Opinion.
I figured you for a Kalulu from the begining, since they all say pretty much the same thing.
That being that Lelouch loved Kallen and it's "canon" or "the most canon" or some nonsense to that effect.
Obviously I don't agree with your opinion, doesn't mean I don't respect it, just means that if I use the Kalulu "logic" (like Morbofist saying this "one can argue that all the moments between them constantly getting interrupted is demonstrating two people who would have been closer if not for outside forces constantly intervening") of hints, looks, etc, then for that "logic" to hold up it must be applied to the other two major love interests.

Otherwise it's simply wishful thinking on the part of the Kalulus, and again there is nothing wrong with wishing Okouchi and Taniguichi did things differently.
There are many non-romance related things I wish they did differently in R2.
And honestly I wish they had made a damn choice by the end of which girl was the "official pairing" because it's created more harm than good by not choosing one.
I wouldn't have cared which one, just so long as there was none of this damn ambiquity.

Now back to Kalulu "logic" as it relates to Lelouch.
Using Kalulu "logic" with scenes like those of Shirley and Lelouch in the rain, or in the library at the school festival, or Lelouch erasing Shirley's memory to protect her, his meltdown when she's dying, etc. we easily come to the conclusion that he loved Shirley the most.
Again, this is using the techniques I've seen Kallen x Lelouch fans use to defend and justify their position.
Take Kalulu "logic" and apply it to CC and Lelouch appears to be madly in love: the whole "why is snow white" poetic exchange, Lelouch making his own contract with her on the roof of the police station, the number of times they kiss, him saying her name like a lover in the cave, him fulfilling her wish, them holding hands in ep 24 before the last battle, Lelouch telling Charles "you've stolen enough from me already father, you won't have her too," and then when he tells CC he "understands her Geass" and will give her the smile she never had, you get the idea.


If we apply this same "logic" to other characters with Lelouch, like Euphie, Rolo, or Suzaku, then Lelouch is one really messed up, sexually confused, individual.

However if we don't use Kalulu "logic" and simply take what the anime shows us then we can see plainly that Shirley x Lelouch is the only pairing that won since Lelouch is now dead and thus with Shirley in C's world (we know this from S1 when Charles tells Schneizel "I was just speaking with Clovis" who is dead at that point).

Had Lelouch lived, then in all likelihood he would have fulfilled his promise to CC and gone on with her as a lover since that's what she wanted as explained in episode 15 of R2.

Let me refresh everybody's memory so there's no confusion:



It is for those reasons, and a few others I don't feel I should have to get into, that I said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083
If he loved her (and I have come to severely doubt it after watching this show more times than I can count at this point) then it was a twisted and sick kind of love.
I don't see Lelouch being tender with her at all at any time during the series.
Anywhere.
Nor does he share with her any of his inner feelings or personal thoughts anywhere in either season.
I still have that opinion and it is based on the anime itself, nothing more or less.
However, it is still just an opinion and not fact.
The fact is that we aren't told anything about Lelouch's romantic feelings and thus as far as we know he could have loved none or perhaps all of the women in his life.
What sets me off on this kind of a tirade is when I see a Geass fan try and say that one pairing or the other is a fact/canon.
When none of them are.
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Old 2012-10-03, 12:22   Link #7596
somersault
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Using Kalulu "logic" with scenes like those of Shirley and Lelouch in the rain, or in the library at the school festival, or Lelouch erasing Shirley's memory to protect her, his meltdown when she's dying, etc. we easily come to the conclusion that he loved Shirley the most.
How do we come easily to the conclusion that he loved Shirley the most?
I would, too, agree to that fact, had not Lelouch been responsible (albeit not on purpose, but still) for her father's death.
The show, up until that point, didn't indicate anything in regards to Lelouch's feelings towards Shirley.
However, enter her family tragedy and you got Lelouch all mixed up with guilt and confusion; perhaps he was infatuated with her (as he himself said in the episode when she erases her memories) but he wasn't sure and was never gonna be sure.
I don't think all the above add up to the whole "easily come to the conclusion he loved her the most."

Nobody denies the fact, that they did share some meaningful, tender scenes that could be interpreted as a sign for a possible future relationship, but that could only work in a normal highschool enviroment.
I guess you could argue, that Shirley/Lelouch would happen if Lelouch hadn't received the Geass.

As for "Kalulu logic", whatever you say, can apply to the ~logic~ that the other fans use for their own ship; nobody is truly objective when they start liking a couple. The problems rise when liking > show facts.
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Old 2012-10-03, 15:36   Link #7597
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Said love could have simply meant the non-romantic unconditional type of love, similar to what is known in Catholicism as agape.
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Old 2012-10-03, 16:17   Link #7598
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Said love could have simply meant the non-romantic unconditional type of love, similar to what is known in Catholicism as agape.
Well yeah, it doesn't always have to be romantic. Lelouch-Shirley had said undertones but there's no definite conclusion at all, partly because it ended abruptly too. (btw, agape is a greek word, I would know; and that word can be interpreted in many ways. Either the romantic one, the friendship one or the family one. It's the strongest word you can use on someone to express whatever feelings.)
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Old 2012-10-03, 20:36   Link #7599
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How do we come easily to the conclusion that he loved Shirley the most?
Ask Sol Failing for that explanation.
If he feels like it, he'll explain it better than I can.
He's the one that convinced me of it.

Quote:
The problems rise when liking > show facts.
I nearly fell off my chair.
That is EXACTLY the point I've been trying to make here.
I hope this means we have reached a point of consensus.
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Old 2012-10-03, 20:40   Link #7600
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My own take on this is: Shirley; She had the most probability of being the girlfriend. Warm and bubbly personality, caring and giving, and sort if the "girl next door" style about her.
C.C.; Cold, distant, tired of life, and wanted to die. Yet Lelouch made her care again and in more ways than one reinvigorated her wanting to live and give a damn, she had the makings of a lover and her past was that she only wanted to be loved. She was like the new girl in school, mysterious, attractive, yet distant.
Kallen; The warrior/spy. Incredibly beautiful in her own right, and fiery tempered! She tended to operate on both opposites warm and caring one minute, distant and cold the next, bipolar. She was the girl everybody sort of liked but tended to shy away from because of her personality, she admired Zero for his leadership capabilities, and then it was Lelouch a person she originally coundn't stand! Yes she would have died for him! But did she love him? As a leader yes, as a boyfriend maybe.
My opinion: Shirley had the lead on this and probably would have been "The One" but she was killed. C.C. was the obvious mistress and would have filled the void since she is closer to him than Kallen. As for Kallen, she could have done well with Lelouch but was more into him being the leader of the rebellion than a love interest. Eventually she would have moved on if he had lived.
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