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Old 2008-06-14, 14:24   Link #1161
Methuselah
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He wants them both to live on. He thinks his selfless, emo-ignorance is wrong. Lelouch did regret putting the Geass on the emo head later on.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:24   Link #1162
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
The Live command on Suzaku. Sure, you could argue it was to save himself, but he really wanted Suzaku to stop thinking of his life as something that was not important.
No, not only could I argue that it was to save himself, I will flat out SAY that is why he did it.

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Like I said though, they are making him more likable. Some people are always going to dislike him though no matter what happens since they can't see anything but his flaws. It's not like he's the only character in this show who has flaws of character. No character in this show is good. Suzaku is very selfish for one, though there are plenty of people who will say the opposite.
The thing is, Suzaku tries to help people. Lelouch is only trying to help himself. Suzaku also doesn't treat his friends as pawns in some game which is what Lelouch seems to do all the time. That is where the difference is.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:26   Link #1163
Dann of Thursday
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Do you have any proof of that?

No, Suzaku tries to get himself killed. That was always his main goal. Lelouch treated Shirley and the others like pawns in a game? When was that?
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:29   Link #1164
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
No, Suzaku tries to get himself killed. That was always his main goal. Lelouch treated Shirley and the others like pawns in a game? When was that?
You see, I can argue the point that Suzaku's goal was NOT always about killing himself (except for that one instance.) He may think that is what it is, but I honestly think he wants a lot more than that just because he set so many goals he is trying to achieve.

As for Shirley and the other classmates, yeah, that is true on their part, but that is because they aren't useful for his plans of toppling a government. But what about the Black Knights who all looked up to him? Surely you can see that he uses them as pawns more times than not.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:31   Link #1165
Dann of Thursday
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Except for the fact that Okouchi confirmed everything Mao said was true and that he really was trying to get himself killed all the time. Saving people wasn't something he cared about at all really. It was making himself feel better.

No, I have never seen him use them like pawns. And the Order are not his friends. And he does care about them or else he wouldn't have bothered saving them.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:33   Link #1166
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
You see, I can argue the point that Suzaku's goal was NOT always about killing himself (except for that one instance.) He may think that is what it is, but I honestly think he wants a lot more than that just because he set so many goals he is trying to achieve.

MANY goals?

How many did you know? Last I checked, the season-1 Suzaku had only one goal other than killing himself. And that goal was the vague "Change Britannia from the inside". No timetable, no short-term plans.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:40   Link #1167
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Except for the fact that Okouchi confirmed everything Mao said was true and that he really was trying to get himself killed all the time. Saving people wasn't something he cared about at all really. It was making himself feel better.
Eh, I can still make the case. Of course if he wanted to get himself killed, he could have done it himself. Which he obviously didn't. Nor did he ever lose a battle on purpose which he could have done if he wanted to get killed. If he wanted to die, he would have done it well before the Geass was used on him.

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No, I have never seen him use them like pawns.
...Seriously? Not even when he blatantly used them for his own goals, and lied/stretched the truth? We have the whole Euphie incident as proof of that after all. Before that you have both battles involving the JLF (on the mountain, and then again when he destroyed the ship.) Are you honestly going to say he never used them as pawns?

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And the Order are not his friends. And he does care about them or else he wouldn't have bothered saving them.
Can't topple a government without an army of competant followers can ya? Do you honestly think he cares about them? He only cares as long as they are useful and all evidence points to that because that is Lelouch's personality.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valient
How many did you know? Last I checked, the season-1 Suzaku had only one goal other than killing himself. And that goal was the vague "Change Britannia from the inside". No timetable, no short-term plans.
Um, first off, he joined the as an honorary Britannian to do something, not just die (he can die a hundred other ways without joining the military.) Then he wanted to protect Euphemia as much as he could. And then after Season 1 he wants to become the 1st Knight to help Japan (which would also give him tremendous power to do something AND change Britannia from the inside.) I can't honestly believe that he just wants to die jsut by the way the show is going.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:44   Link #1168
Dann of Thursday
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He needed to do it while acting like he was saving people so he could make himself feel better. Simply killing himself would not have done this.

What does lying have to do with this? He couldn't tell them for several reasons which included involving them. He uses people for pawns, but you act like he's the only one in the show that does.

Yes I do because it is evident that he trusts them.

Really this is pointless since you will never see any good in Lelouch. This is what I meant when I said making him more likable will never be noticed by some people.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:46   Link #1169
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Eh, I can still make the case. Of course if he wanted to get himself killed, he could have done it himself. Which he obviously didn't. Nor did he ever lose a battle on purpose which he could have done if he wanted to get killed. If he wanted to die, he would have done it well before the Geass was used on him.
Suzaku joined the army specifically so he will get killed. And that almost happened on his first mission. It just got harder and harder to die when Lulu refused to have him assassinated, and it lead to the moment when Suzaku finally got Geassed.

Suzaku wanted to be a Martyr. It's like suicide, except more selfish because you want to look good doing it.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:51   Link #1170
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
He needed to do it while acting like he was saving people so he could make himself feel better. Simply killing himself would not have done this.
Eh, that is a valid point. I can see that argument.

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What does lying have to do with this? He couldn't tell them for several reasons which included involving them. He uses people for pawns, but you act like he's the only one in the show that does.
Oh hardly. He is only one of many.

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Yes I do because it is evident that he trusts them.
OF COURSE they trust him. I never really said that they didn't. But does he care about as anything more than assets? I am not so sure.

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Really this is pointless since you will never see any good in Lelouch. This is what I meant when I said making him more likable will never be noticed by some people.
Not true. I can tell Lelouch has good in him, especially involving Nunnally. But it is his plans and how he goes about them that makes me dislike him (hate is a little strong.)
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:55   Link #1171
Dann of Thursday
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If he didn't care about them as anything more than assets, he wouldn't have bothered going through so much trouble to get them all back. Lelouch didn't keep in contact with Ougi's group after the first time since he thought he was getting too involved with them and didn't want any attachment. He does care about them to some degree. This is war though. You can't act like a saint.
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Old 2008-06-14, 14:59   Link #1172
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This is war though. You can't act like a saint.
Worse. Those who try to be Saints ended up doing nothing when innocents die in droves.
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Old 2008-06-14, 15:01   Link #1173
Dann of Thursday
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Being a commander during something like this means making hard decisions. You don't have to like any of them. I don't think Lelouch enjoys war or anything of the sort.
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Old 2008-06-14, 15:01   Link #1174
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
If he didn't care about them as anything more than assets, he wouldn't have bothered going through so much trouble to get them all back.
Again, what happened when Lelouch didn't have a competant following? Cornelia kicked his ass. He needs them for his plans, so of course he is going to rescue them.

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He does care about them to some degree. This is war though. You can't act like a saint.
True enough. I can buy that reasoning even though I don't totally agree with it. He still manipulates them though. No questions about it.
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Old 2008-06-14, 15:04   Link #1175
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
True enough. I can buy that reasoning even though I don't totally agree with it. He still manipulates them though. No questions about it.
That's his job. The BK expects no less; what do you think "people management" mean?
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Old 2008-06-14, 15:05   Link #1176
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That's his job. The BK expects no less; what do you think "people management" mean?
I don't know, NOT lie to his troops about chaos he started to begin with?
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Old 2008-06-14, 15:07   Link #1177
Dann of Thursday
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What was he supposed to say? "I have magical powers and ordered her to kill all the Japanese"? Does that make any sense to you? Not lying would have caused bigger problems.
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Old 2008-06-14, 15:11   Link #1178
Orga777
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
What was he supposed to say? "I have magical powers and ordered her to kill all the Japanese"? Does that make any sense to you? Not lying would have caused bigger problems.
That isn't the first time he did something like that though... I would agree if that was the only time he did it, but it isn't. More like when he blew up the tanker carrying the JLF when he told his troops they were there to help them and then lied that it was suicide.
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Old 2008-06-14, 15:12   Link #1179
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
I don't know, NOT lie to his troops about chaos he started to begin with?
Management means to say the right thing at the right time. You only say he shouldn't lie because you have no interest in freeing the 11s. Your idea of "honesty" being more important than helping the 11s is something that is practical only when you are some sort of deity, looking down on mortals.

What Lulu said was for the best for everyone. Nothing else he said would have made any sense.

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That isn't the first time he did something like that though... I would agree if that was the only time he did it, but it isn't. More like when he blew up the tanker carrying the JLF when he told his troops they were there to help them and then lied that it was suicide.
How does the number of times he does it matter?
Are you keeping score?

Morality isn't something you get marks for. You save those you can save, and if you can't save them you use them to improve chances of saving others.
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Old 2008-06-14, 15:12   Link #1180
Dann of Thursday
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And they all pretty much deduced he was lying. Did it stop them? He could at least use their deaths as a symbol to give them all confidence.
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