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Old 2008-08-07, 16:12   Link #1921
Discerptor
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Shouldn't Lelouch know that if the risk is too big, not to take the chance? He should of had him killed. Some things are just too dangerous to keep around after all.
Lelouch would be fine with that risk happening to pretty much anyone. I don't think he particularly cares about Rolo being trigger-happy. He just didn't count on the unlikely event that one of the six or so people in the world he doesn't view as a pawn, enemy or piece of cardboard that looks like a human would give Rolo reason to kill her.
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Originally Posted by morbosfist
The blame goes to more than just Lelouch. Shirley was the one who got the bright idea to run into a veritable war zone in the first place, Jeremiah restored her memories, Suzaku just left her to the cops after that obviously strange conversation so he might catch Zero: Lelouch is not the only one at fault here. Everyone played their part to get her killed.
I believe you missed the part where I said, and I QUOTE:
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Originally Posted by Discerptor
The fact of the matter is Lelouch's actions as Zero caused Shirley's death, even if others were responsible as well.
I acknowledge and embrace that fact. It doesn't magically absolve Lelouch of all blame.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:14   Link #1922
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Shouldn't Lelouch know that if the risk is too big, not to take the chance? He should of had him killed. Some things are just too dangerous to keep around after all.
It's a matter of risk vs. reward. Rolo is a big risk, but he's also a big reward. He provides an almost unbeatable advantage in any situation. Him killing Shirley, or any of the student council, was a pretty far out there thought to begin with. He was much less of a risk to those close to Lelouch, which is really all that mattered.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:15   Link #1923
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
It's a matter of risk vs. reward. Rolo is a big risk, but he's also a big reward. He provides an almost unbeatable advantage in any situation. Him killing Shirley, or any of the student council, was a pretty far out there thought to begin with. He was much less of a risk to those close to Lelouch, which is really all that mattered.
How come I don't think it was as far out there as you think...
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:18   Link #1924
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How come I don't think it was as far out there as you think...
Because you're thinking of it from after the fact. Think about it before the fact. The Student Council knew nothing, and weren't in much of a position to ever know anything. They posed no threat. Jeremiah threw a wildcard into the deck and everything went to hell.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:19   Link #1925
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How come I don't think it was as far out there as you think...
Because you seem not to recall that there was no method of retrieving Shirley's memories prior to the episode it happened or the fact that 6 in 6,000,000,000+ are pretty low chances? :P
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:20   Link #1926
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Because you seem not to recall that there was no method of retrieving Shirley's memories prior to the episode it happened or the fact that 6 in 6,000,000,000+ are pretty low chances? :P
Good point... I still see him for the cause of her death though. Not really for the Rolo thing, but everything that happened to her in S1 as well. So nya!
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:25   Link #1927
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Good point... I still see him for the cause of her death though. Not really for the Rolo thing, but everything that happened to her in S1 as well. So nya!
I see him as a cause, and an essential one at that, meaning it would not have happened if he hadn't been acting as Zero. Other causes existing or him not intending it to happen don't change that. He didn't mean to kill Shirley's father, and you could argue that it was partially Shirley's father's fault for not getting the hell out of there as soon as a battle started so close to where he was, but Lelouch is still at fault.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:28   Link #1928
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So Lelouch is just supposed to give up being Zero the second someone gets hurt? Ridiculous. He's in too deep, and doesn't have the luxury of backing out now. Him being Zero hardly makes it his fault.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:31   Link #1929
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
So Lelouch is just supposed to give up being Zero the second someone gets hurt? Ridiculous. He's in too deep, and doesn't have the luxury of backing out now. Him being Zero hardly makes it his fault.
So you're saying that Shirley would have still died like that if Lelouch weren't Zero? Nonsense. As for whether he should just give up as soon as someone gets hurt, that's something Lelouch has already resolved with himself. I didn't say he should stop being Zero, but he does have to accept responsibility for the collateral death he causes.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:35   Link #1930
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So you're saying that Shirley would have still died like that if Lelouch weren't Zero? As for whether he should just give up as soon as someone gets hurt, that's something Lelouch has already resolved with himself. I didn't say he should stop being Zero, but he does have to accept responsibility for the collateral death he causes.
She couldn't have known for sure. Hell, even V.V didn't know for sure when he sent Jeremiah off. Granted, it would be far less likely, but she very well could have been killed off if Lelouch was still mind-wiped.

Lelouch knows full well the collateral death he causes, and up until Shirley died he blamed himself for it. It was only after she died that he turned on Geass in his grief.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:40   Link #1931
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She couldn't have known for sure. Hell, even V.V didn't know for sure when he sent Jeremiah off. It may not have played out the same, but she very well could have been killed off just as easily if Lelouch was still mind-wiped.
V.V. wouldn't have sent Jeremiah if there were no Zero to think suspect being Lelouch. There is no way around that, and that is Lelouch's doing entirely.
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Lelouch knows full well the collateral death he causes, and up until Shirley died he blamed himself for it. It was only after she died that he turned on Geass in his grief.
No, he does not. Not when it happens with someone he considers not either an enemy or a piece of cardboard that looks like a human anyway. See Euphy for reference. One problem with Lelouch is he has the childish mindset of thinking he can get everything. He thinks he can have his crusade, be a massacring terrorist that doesn't care about civilian casualties, AND never cause any harm to the ones close to him. If he thinks he can be a monster and a human at the same time, he's sorely mistaken. Holding to his heartless ideals for everyone EXCEPT these handful is impossible, and if Nunnally dies (which seems very likely with Rolo leading the rescue operation), hopefully he'll finally realise this.

Last edited by Discerptor; 2008-08-07 at 16:52.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:47   Link #1932
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How to get rid of him? That is actually pretty easy. NOT throw yourself in front of a missile to 'save' him. You know, like he did during his BK Rescue attempt.

And really, Lelouch who thinks three steps ahead wouldn't realize that someone that is always saying "Can I kill him now?" wouldn't come back to haunt him? Seriously?

As for Nina, nobody expected her to go off the deep end. Rolo was already off the deep end. Big difference.
And I though someone crazy enough to blow herself and the entire academy is not dangrous enough to be eliminated If they can not expected her to pull that thing off again then I dont know what then.

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It was teh emperor's decision, and Suzaku knows, but they had no CHOICE really. Especially after what LELOUCH did. It was because of him that they did that. Lelouch was the cause, Charles acted because of that cause. See how things work?
Ok, then how about zero has to get revenge because how he was treated and suffered as a child. And if not because of the britinia policy, he would not have support from the japanese in the first place. The emperor or whoever start it all is the cause. Yes, I see how things work.

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And don't give me "Nunnally's feelings." If she knew all the details about what lelouch has done, how do you think she would feel from THAT? She already told him that he was wrong after all.
Good, did I ever say she will feel good about what zero did? All I say is that suzaku doesnt have the right to blame the students council on zero while he also does nothing and using them.
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Old 2008-08-07, 16:55   Link #1933
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
V.V. wouldn't have sent Jeremiah if there were no Zero to think might be Lelouch. There is no way around that, and that is Lelouch's doing entirely.
And it's still hardly his fault. He may be a cause, but that doesn't put him at fault for it, any more than you would blame the rock rather than the person who threw it.

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No, he does not. Not when it happens with someone he considers not either an enemy or a piece of cardboard that looks like a human anyway. One problem with Lelouch is he has the childish mindset of thinking he can get everything. He thinks he can have his crusade, be a massacring terrorist that doesn't care about civilian casualties, AND never cause any harm to the ones close to him. If he thinks he can be a monster and a human at the same time, he's sorely mistaken. Holding to his heartless ideals for everyone EXCEPT these handful is impossible, and if Nunnally dies (which seems very likely with Rolo leading the rescue operation), hopefully he'll finally realise this.
He blamed himself for Euphy's death, and Shirley's father. Shirley's mindwipe he took responsibility for, as well. He does not blame others for the death he causes, Shirley's death aside.

As for the moral issues, I don't know where this monster/human thing comes from, but it is possible to be a revolutionary (terrorism is something else) and retain humanity. He pulls it off rather well. He does care about civilian casualties, he just doesn't see them as a hindrance. They are a necessary sacrifice of war. He doesn't have to be a monster to cause them.
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Old 2008-08-07, 17:03   Link #1934
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And it's still hardly his fault. He may be a cause, but that doesn't put him at fault for it, any more than you would blame the rock rather than the person who threw it.
Except he's a rock who had a choice. I suppose I shouldn't blame the lookout for a team of guys that beats a person to death either.
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He blamed himself for Euphy's death, and Shirley's father. Shirley's mindwipe he took responsibility for, as well. He does not blame others for the death he causes, Shirley's death aside.
No, in every piece of dialogue relating to the matter he specifically blames Geass for Euphy. Except his recent copout of "I'll tell Suzaku what he wants to hear so we can get this over with" of course. And he hardly cares about Shirley's dad outside the fact he's related to someone he does care about. I don't get how this is even a debateable point with the fact he thinks (and has directly said) that the world is at fault, not him.
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As for the moral issues, I don't know where this monster/human thing comes from, but it is possible to be a revolutionary (terrorism is something else) and retain humanity. He pulls it off rather well. He does care about civilian casualties, he just doesn't see them as a hindrance. They are a necessary sacrifice of war. He doesn't have to be a monster to cause them.
The Black Knights ARE (or started out as) a terrorist organisation, if you recall. It's not so much a moral issue as a maturity one. You can't expect to always be able to have your cake and eat it. Lelouch can't operate as he does and expect to not lose anything. Yet the second he causes harm to someone he cares about, he goes all crybaby ballistic and trying to make absolutely everything he thinks could be responsible atone for their sins except himself. You'd think he would have learned this with Euphy, but apparently not.

Last edited by Discerptor; 2008-08-07 at 18:52.
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Old 2008-08-07, 18:16   Link #1935
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Except he's a rock who had a choice I suppose I shouldn't blame the lookout for a team of guys that beats a person to death either.
And how is Zero the lookout? He recruited Rolo. That's it. It would have been no more his fault than if Tamaki had killed the Student Council back in R1.

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No, in every piece of dialogue relating to the matter he specifically blames Geass for Euphy. Except his recent copout of "I'll tell Suzaku what he wants to hear so we can get this over with" of course. And he hardly cares about Shirley's dad outside the fact he's related to someone he does care about. I don't get how this is even a debateable point with the fact he thinks (and has directly said) that the world is at fault, not him.
He only says that when he learns his memories were tampered with, and it wasn't in reference to everything he ever did. As for Euphy, he obviously felt responsible.

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The Black Knights ARE (or started out as) a terrorist organisation, if you recall. It's not so much a moral issue as a maturity one. You can't expect to always be able to have your cake and eat it. Lelouch can't operate as he does and expect to not lose anything. Yet the second he causes harm to someone he cares about, he goes all crybaby ballistic and trying to make absolutely everything he thinks could be responsible atone for their sins except himself. You'd think he would have learned this with Euphy, but apparently not.
They aren't a terrorist group now. What they were made from was terrorists, but the parts don't always equal the whole. He only went ballistic with Shirley. When her dad died, a quick talk from C.C. set him straight. When he fucked up Euphy's SAZ, he immediately spun it into something useful. You're trying to push one incident onto his actions across the entire season.
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Old 2008-08-07, 18:30   Link #1936
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And how is Zero the lookout? He recruited Rolo. That's it. It would have been no more his fault than if Tamaki had killed the Student Council back in R1.
And I'd find him just as much at blame if that happened too. I already said he wasn't the only one at fault.

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He only says that when he learns his memories were tampered with, and it wasn't in reference to everything he ever did. As for Euphy, he obviously felt responsible.
It reflects his overall attitude rather well, which is why I picked that quote. And again, what "obviously"? Find one instance that even hints that he feels he is responsible instead of throwing the blame on his Geass.

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They aren't a terrorist group now. What they were made from was terrorists, but the parts don't always equal the whole. He only went ballistic with Shirley. When her dad died, a quick talk from C.C. set him straight. When he fucked up Euphy's SAZ, he immediately spun it into something useful. You're trying to push one incident onto his actions across the entire season.
I'm not keen on putting the Black Knights on such a different level now just because they managed to get the financial support of a bunch of countries through some combination of plot-infused Eunuch General stupidity and sakuradite. And Lelouch's "I'm not going to take responsibility for my screw-ups" attitude has been apparent to me since even R1. I'm not trying to push the Shirley incident onto anything. Shirley's dad was the first time this happened, and he coped with it by basically telling himself, "Oh well, casualties are fine if it's people I don't really care all that much about" and making some laughably contradictory speech to keep Kallen from becoming useless. And his reaction towards Euphy, as you seem to have forgotten, was to curse Geass for being so dangerous and causing Euphy's death. After he comforted himself wth that thought at the end of Turn 22, he then decided to move on and drag Euphy's name through the mud and kill her (which was something he already was planning to do prior to that, minus the killing, so it wasn't that huge an effort on his part).
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Old 2008-08-07, 18:39   Link #1937
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And I'd find him just as much at blame if that happened too. I already said he wasn't the only one at fault.
Fair enough.

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It reflects his overall attitude rather well, which is why I picked that quote. And again, what "obviously"? Find one instance that even hints that he feels he is responsible instead of throwing the blame on his Geass.
I don't know, the whole thing with C.C. comforting him seems a pretty big hint.

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I'm not keen on putting the Black Knights on such a different level now just because they managed to get the financial support of a bunch of countries through some combination of plot-infused Eunuch General stupidity and sakuradite. And Lelouch's "I'm not going to take responsibility for my screw-ups" attitude has been apparent to me since even R1. I'm not trying to push the Shirley incident onto anything. Shirley's dad was the first time this happened, and he coped with it by basically telling himself, "Oh well, casualties are fine if it's people I don't really care all that much about" and making some laughably contradictory speech to keep Kallen from becoming useless. And his reaction towards Euphy, as you seem to have forgotten, was to curse Geass for being so dangerous and causing Euphy's death. After he comforted himself wth that thought at the end of Turn 22, he then decided to move on and drag Euphy's name through the mud and kill her (which was something he already was planning to do prior to that, minus the killing, so it wasn't that huge an effort on his part).
Your characterization of how he coped is hardly fair. C.C. helped him realize that he would be hurting people, even his friends, and that he couldn't back out. His speech to Kallen simply summed up his feelings. It wasn't only for her benefit.

And yes, he did curse Geass, but he blamed himself just as much, which is why he took it upon himself to kill Euphy. He could have just let Kallen kill her.
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Old 2008-08-07, 18:48   Link #1938
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I don't know, the whole thing with C.C. comforting him seems a pretty big hint.
I always felt he was certainly very saddened about Euphy's death, and I think the comforting had more to do with that, as well as feeling helpless in general since he didn't mean to kill Euphy. There were a lot of layers to exactly how crummy Lelouch felt, but I don't think feelig genuine guilt was one of them.
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Your characterization of how he coped is hardly fair. C.C. helped him realize that he would be hurting people, even his friends, and that he couldn't back out. His speech to Kallen simply summed up his feelings. It wasn't only for her benefit.
I believe we're saying the same thing, except I don't believe the even his friends part ever really ticked in his brain. If it had, he would have been a bit more okay with what happened to Euphy and Shirley. And on his speech, the same thing applies I think. He was convincing himself that he could still follow the path of the warlock, but he never really accepted that close friends could get hurt by his ambition.
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And yes, he did curse Geass, but he blamed himself just as much, which is why he took it upon himself to kill Euphy. He could have just let Kallen kill her.
I think that had more to do with "making a statement" as he put it. He wouldn't have been able to send the same message if he hadn't killed Euphemia the Massacre Princess himself. He was making himself out to be a Messiah, after all.
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Old 2008-08-07, 19:02   Link #1939
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I always felt he was certainly very saddened about Euphy's death, and I think the comforting had more to do with that, as well as feeling helpless in general since he didn't mean to kill Euphy. There were a lot of layers to exactly how crummy Lelouch felt, but I don't think feelig genuine guilt was one of them.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. His short line when he killed Euphy tells me he felt guilty.

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I believe we're saying the same thing, except I don't believe the even his friends part ever really ticked in his brain. If it had, he would have been a bit more okay with what happened to Euphy and Shirley. And on his speech, the same thing applies I think. He was convincing himself that he could still follow the path of the warlock, but he never really accepted that close friends could get hurt by his ambition.
I can agree with that, I guess. He's never quite shown the ability to cope with such things, even if he realizes they'll happen.

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I think that had more to do with "making a statement" as he put it. He wouldn't have been able to send the same message if he hadn't killed Euphemia the Massacre Princess himself. He was making himself out to be a Messiah, after all.
It's not like anyone apart from Kallen saw him do it. He could have just said he did it rather than take it upon himself. it struck me as righting his own wrong. He started her massacre, so he felt responsible for putting it down.
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Old 2008-08-07, 19:06   Link #1940
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It's not like anyone apart from Kallen saw him do it. He could have just said he did it rather than take it upon himself. it struck me as righting his own wrong. He started her massacre, so he felt responsible for putting it down.
Yet Suzaku saw it, and Cornelia identified him as Euphy's killer (before later deciding it was V.V.). The line of "making a statement using [her]" also seems to support it being a tactical move, in my opinion.
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