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Old 2008-08-07, 22:58   Link #1961
Sports72Xtrm
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
You're jumping to the worst case scenario for no reason. Yes, the UFN would treat Britannians equally. They would also strip away most of their army. The US did that to Japan.
The U.S. isn't the UFN. The UFN is comprised of mostly oppressed Britannian colonies and enemies. Your telling me that all that oppression hasn't build up enough resentment to want to punish their oppressors?
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Old 2008-08-07, 23:04   Link #1962
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
Of course he felt like no messiah after everything went to hell. That was still the image he wanted to keep up both before the incident (he even used the word) and after he resolved to continue on with his lie. Taking on the burden of acting that cold-hearted and using Euphy's death to his advantage was a huge deal for him when he actually did care about Euphy. And no, when he confronted Euphy, it went:

EUPHY: Ah, I thought it was a Japanese. Hey, I've thought about it. Let's make an announcement on the Special Administrative Region of Japan. Erm... Japan?
ZERO: Yeah, if it's possible, that's what I want to do too... with you.
[ZERO shoots EUPHY]
EUPHY: Why... Lelouch?
ZERO: Good bye, Euphy. Perhaps that was first love.
Okay, we must have got different subs on this because mine said "Yes, if possible, I would have liked to have done that, with you." And so, if read in that sense he was actually just lamenting over the lost opportunity of the SAZ and his original intention of joining her... <_<

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No mention of his intention to help her start the SAZ. He stated clear as day that he was going to use her death to make a statement. I'm sure it tore him up inside because he loved her, but that's the burden he chose to bear as Zero. He had to keep up the lie and do "what Zero would do," which was that.
And yes, he lied to Suzaku about why he did most of the things Suzaku asked him about. In the case of the Euphy incident, he said it was to stop the Black Knights from falling apart, not that it was a political statement. Suzaku realised Lelouch was simply giving him easy answers by taking on all the blame in a very blanketed sort of way even though he "knew" he wasn't responsible and was only taking the superficial blame because it was the easy thing to do. It's what Lelouch does.
Now this is what I'm talking about, you're so incredibly shortsighted and lacking on all the details and considerations that its just not funny anymore. Did you not watch the scene where he said "You win, let's make a plan where the SAZ will become a success" Does that suddenly not show you that he gave up on the burden of Zero, that he chose to instead give up his rebellion and instead chose Euphie? And when did he make the choice otherwise, why when he had no other choice at all! And he did not say it was just to stop the Black Knights from falling apart, he also said he used it to start an insurrection against Britannia as well, which is what he did do with Euphie's death. How the hell does this suddenly work exactly? He was willing to take the blame despite not being responsible? Bull I say, he took on the burden precisely because it was in his eyes, his responsibility!

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And I acknowledge the parallels. Suzaku is willing to take on the guilt of putting Japan where it is and wants to atone, while Lelouch is willing to take on all the blanket guilt of "Zero" and move forward with that so he can achieve his goals. By no means does Lelouch not FEEL BAD when people he cares about get hurt, but he never truly feels it's his fault even when he does have a part to lay. And I don't recall Lelouch being willing to give up Zero; I thought Suzaku was telling him to basically keep on being Zero, hence "keep up your lie until the very end." This is identical to what Kallen told him earlier in R2. So yes, all this has been for his Zero reasons (that speech he kept Kallen around with was the most hilariously nonsensical justification Lelouch has used in both seasons, btw).
Blanket guilt? Goals? For Zero? For pete's goddamn sake he basically said Zero was just a facade to rally people around and was willing to give up on Zero's 'goals' as it were in order to get Suzaku to help protect Nunnally. Let me ask you something, about those lies that he told, were they real lies? Did he use his live Geass on Suzaku to save himself? Yes. Did he save Suzaku in order to gain the trust of the japanese? Yes. Did he rescue everyone in the hotel jacking in order to launch the Black Knights debut? Yes. Now where is the lie in this exactly, the thing he's holding back from Suzaku? He geassed Suzaku because he did indeed want him to live, he saved him from his execution because he was his friend and he cared about him, and he saved the hostages in the hotel jacking in order to rescue the Student Council. And yet, here he is, taking all of blame and none of the credit in this instance. Do you know why I draw the parallelism between him and Suzaku? Because deep down Suzaku wanted to be punished, to be made accountable for the burden he feels when he wasn't, as you yourself acknowledge and that is the parallel and the direct comparison I was trying to make with that instance and the one with Lelouch, about knowing that you were indeed responsible for everything you had done and when no one else punished you for it in the end. What Suzaku told Lelouch, instead of just sitting there and accepting punishment, was to truly make up for what he did he should keep up his lie in the end, and turn it into truth. And how is that a nonsensical statement? The logic is there, and exacting to what Lelouch himself believes in, that to end the war and the fighting someone has to finally win it.

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And yes, the truth would have sounded like the TRUTH. I believe Euphy managed the impossible and actually brought Lelouch down from his high pedestal, making him see what was really important (as she said she had topped to do). I was very proud of Lelouch at that point. Of course, Sunrise just couldn't let that happen and Lelouch went back to his Zero self. And again, I think Lelouch cared deeply about the massacre. If Lelouch had been sincere instead of tarnishing that meeting with lies, I might have been able to take what he said during that meeting a little more seriously. Unfortunately, he had to go and be his emo, Zero-blame-shouldering self instead. He just never seems to learn. He's also a selfish prick who only cares about revenge... when he loses sight of the truly important things in his life. And unfortunately, he seems to be stuck very firmly in that mode right now.
What did Lelouch specifically do in that moment though? He stopped himself from making excuses, despite being true, he stripped himself of all defense and took responsibility for his actions all on his shoulders. I fully believe that he was sincere with his honest feelings in his lies, much like Suzaku was beneath his lies as well, that he blamed himself in the end and wanted others to blame him for it as well, to accept all the responsibility on his shoulders to make up for it. He humbled himself before Suzaku, threw away his pride, his ambitions, everything that was Zero and for that I learned to respect him for it. But like Suzaku in this instance, I didn't want him to just take the blame on himself, I wanted him to see him realize that he didn't need to shoulder everything and instead of just taking whatever came at him to turn his lies into real truths and values. In actuality, I think he was well on his way to really doing that even without Suzaku telling him, that his lies did indeed have meaning of their own in the end despite whatever his father said or condemned of them. That is why I suddenly won't disrespect his intentions or the meaning behind his initial act at the shrine, or what those moments in time really meant for him. And this is what I'm talking about, you oversimplify everything and take away any merit or intention behind his actions. Even when he said all that, he was crying in the end for pete's sake. The main point behind my entire argument with you was that he never solely cares about only one thing, its a mixture of all types of things, personal relationships, revenge, ambition, idealism, and values even when it seems only one part dominates the other, because even underneath the negative persona he weaves around him like with his lies (or half-truths more like it), at heart he still possess a strong character for what is right as well. My entire problem with your assessment of him has always been this disregard for all those aspects of his personality and limiting your view and consideration as such, painting a shallow image of a much deeper picture of who Lelouch really is.

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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
The U.S. isn't the UFN. The UFN is comprised of mostly oppressed Britannian colonies and enemies. Your telling me that all that oppression hasn't build up enough resentment to want to punish their oppressors?
You're telling me that Diethard isn't a good example of otherwise? What was Zero's proclamation, whether they be Britannian or Eleven, despite whatever religion, creed, or race they were he would assist them no matter what, unite them under a single banner of equality and peace. And why can't the UFN be like the U.S? For pete's sake the the member nations are all called United States as well <_<
__________________
"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7050/zeroty5copieie4.jpg

Last edited by KrimzonStriker; 2008-08-07 at 23:18.
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Old 2008-08-07, 23:06   Link #1963
hero147
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post

No mention of his intention to help her start the SAZ. He stated clear as day that he was going to use her death to make a statement. I'm sure it tore him up inside because he loved her, but that's the burden he chose to bear as Zero. He had to keep up the lie and do "what Zero would do," which was that.
And yes, he lied to Suzaku about why he did most of the things Suzaku asked him about. In the case of the Euphy incident, he said it was to stop the Black Knights from falling apart, not that it was a political statement. Suzaku realised Lelouch was simply giving him easy answers by taking on all the blame in a very blanketed sort of way even though he "knew" he wasn't responsible and was only taking the superficial blame because it was the easy thing to do. It's what Lelouch does.
Lelouch mentioned he would help her start SAZ after Euphemia stated she would forfeit her heir to the throne after SAZ got started. The original plan Lelouch had in mind wasn't to kill Euphemia, but rather have Euphemia kill zero, which would cause a riot in SAZ, which in turn would cause it to fail. Lelouch killing Euphemia was not a statement at all, if it was Zero would've nationally announced that he himself killed her, but he didnt.
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Old 2008-08-07, 23:20   Link #1964
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
You're telling me that Diethard isn't a good example of otherwise? What was Zero's proclamation, whether they be Britannian or Eleven, despite whatever religion, creed, or race they were he would assist them no matter what, unite them under a single banner of equality and peace. And why can't the UFN be like the U.S? For pete's sake the the member nations are all called United States as well <_<
Diethard was one Britannian who they needed at the time. Once the UFN have beaten Britannia, there's no need for zero and no need for Diethard. In fact I don't think the UFN will last. The alliance between the "United Nations" will quickly dissolve and they'll begin to withdraw their support from the OotBK in order to fight each other for the world's resources. Only a dictatorship can keep the world together which the UFN isn't.
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Old 2008-08-07, 23:26   Link #1965
morbosfist
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Certainly a bleak outlook you have. The UFN would not simply abandon the ideals they adopted once Britannia is gone. More to the point, even if some did, not all would, and a few wouldn't be enough for the remaining to worry. The majority would stay as a unified organization and still maintain control. As to Britannian oppression, at worst they'd be deported to the Americas. They wouldn't be stripped of their name and rights as Britannia did to its colonies, because they wouldn't be a colony.
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Old 2008-08-07, 23:28   Link #1966
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
Diethard was one Britannian who they needed at the time. Once the UFN have beaten Britannia, there's no need for zero and no need for Diethard. In fact I don't think the UFN will last. The alliance between the "United Nations" will quickly dissolve and they'll begin to withdraw their support from the OotBK in order to fight each other for the world's resources. Only a dictatorship can keep the world together which the UFN isn't.
Wow, isn't that the most optimistic thing I've ever heard... you know if we all stopped fighting once in a while and actually just got along and worked together we probably wouldn't have to worry about all that crap happening and without the need for a brutal iron fist. And I guess you've never watched a Gundamn series like Wing and 00 before have you? And of course Zero would still be around even if they had no need for him, he's become a part of their psyche, a symbol of hope, freedom, etc. etc. and as such he would act as the shadow guardian behind the scenes through the Order to maintain this new stability... <_<
__________________
"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7050/zeroty5copieie4.jpg
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Old 2008-08-07, 23:51   Link #1967
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Certainly a bleak outlook you have. The UFN would not simply abandon the ideals they adopted once Britannia is gone. More to the point, even if some did, not all would, and a few wouldn't be enough for the remaining to worry. The majority would stay as a unified organization and still maintain control. As to Britannian oppression, at worst they'd be deported to the Americas. They wouldn't be stripped of their name and rights as Britannia did to its colonies, because they wouldn't be a colony.
At the very least, the leading Superpowers which would be likely India, China, and possibly Japan would control and hog the majority of the world's resources since they would be the strongest nations. All the other nations might do ok or become third world countries. This will cause instability among the United Nations and they will fight each other. The UFN will have to constantly police the entire world and since all the nations don't pool their resources together, eventually someone will want to stop sending soldiers to quell disputes and break away from the UFN. It's like the U.S. war on terror. I don't think China, Britain, or France will want to support U.S. military campaigns forever even though it is supposedly for the good of all. As for the Britannia, who knows what will happen to them. They would however be colonized since they need the military protection most likely will need to pay for it with their economy or otherwise. The UFN I KNOW will not last.
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Old 2008-08-07, 23:55   Link #1968
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
At the very least, the leading Superpowers which would be likely India, China, and possibly Japan would control and hog the majority of the world's resources since they would be the strongest nations. All the other nations might do ok or become third world countries. This will cause instability among the United Nations and they will fight each other. The UFN will have to constantly police the entire world and since all the nations don't pool their resources together, eventually someone will want to stop sending soldiers to quell disputes and break away from the UFN. It's like the U.S. war on terror. I don't think China, Britain, or France will want to support U.S. military campaigns forever even though it is supposedly for the good of all. As for the Britannia, who knows what will happen to them. They would however be colonized since they need the military protection most likely will need to pay for it with their economy or otherwise. The UFN I KNOW will not last.
You really haven't seen the Gundamn series have you?
__________________
"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7050/zeroty5copieie4.jpg
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Old 2008-08-08, 00:02   Link #1969
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
At the very least, the leading Superpowers which would be likely India, China, and possibly Japan would control and hog the majority of the world's resources since they would be the strongest nations. All the other nations might do ok or become third world countries. This will cause instability among the United Nations and they will fight each other. The UFN will have to constantly police the entire world and since all the nations don't pool their resources together, eventually someone will want to stop sending soldiers to quell disputes and break away from the UFN. It's like the U.S. war on terror. I don't think China, Britain, or France will want to support U.S. military campaigns forever even though it is supposedly for the good of all. As for the Britannia, who knows what will happen to them. They would however be colonized since they need the military protection most likely will need to pay for it with their economy or otherwise. The UFN I KNOW will not last.
Again with that bleak outlook. Just because some countries have larger economies does not mean the whole world will go to hell in a handbasket. The UFN may not last in its current state, but Britannia is the aggressor. When it's taken out, there won't be as much conflict. The countries that lost their freedom will have it returned, and world-wide conflict will be unlikely.
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Old 2008-08-08, 00:02   Link #1970
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Wow, isn't that the most optimistic thing I've ever heard... you know if we all stopped fighting once in a while and actually just got along and worked together we probably wouldn't have to worry about all that crap happening and without the need for a brutal iron fist. And I guess you've never watched a Gundamn series like Wing and 00 before have you? And of course Zero would still be around even if they had no need for him, he's become a part of their psyche, a symbol of hope, freedom, etc. etc. and as such he would act as the shadow guardian behind the scenes through the Order to maintain this new stability... <_<
I wish life was like an anime were everybody gets along and wars would be deterred by flying robots but in the real world people are runned by their greed. What do you think Zero's rebellion set a precedent for? If you are treated unfairly, just upset the established order. Introduce a little anarchy and you get what you want. In the end, it is survival of the fittest.
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Old 2008-08-08, 00:08   Link #1971
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Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
I wish life was like an anime were everybody gets along and wars would be deterred by flying robots but in the real world people are runned by their greed. What do you think Zero's rebellion set a precedent for? If you are treated unfairly, just upset the established order. Introduce a little anarchy and you get what you want. In the end, it is survival of the fittest.
Well, fortunately for you, this is an anime, and it is precisely because of survival of the fittest that Zero launched his rebellion in the first place, and by his example we must have equality, tolerance, and peace, so I don't know about you but his example is serving otherwise, at the same time he's established enough of an Order to maintain that peace and stability as well against a few lackluster elements >_>
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7050/zeroty5copieie4.jpg
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Old 2008-08-08, 00:10   Link #1972
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I'll believe when I see it. I just wanted to show you guys how pathetic Lelouch's attempt to control the world is by backing up an organization that will never accept him. No one follows a man wearing a mask unconditionally if they don't have to. But then again he does have geass.

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Old 2008-08-08, 00:21   Link #1973
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Well, fortunately for you, this is an anime, and it is precisely because of survival of the fittest that Zero launched his rebellion in the first place, and by his example we must have equality, tolerance, and peace, so I don't know about you but his example is serving otherwise, at the same time he's established enough of an Order to maintain that peace and stability as well against a few lackluster elements >_>
Too bad Zero's image going to be destroyed the moment Schneizel leak that tape of his out,even if Zero's still there his Order is destined to fall right after they get Japan back.With the Order gone,the UFN will also become history....
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Old 2008-08-08, 00:24   Link #1974
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Too bad Zero's image going to be destroyed the moment Schneizel leak that tape of his out,even if Zero's still there his Order is destined to fall right after they get Japan back.With the Order gone,the UFN will also become history....
Do not underestimate our dear Lelouch, for he has a plan even in the most hopeless of situations to turn this around, and I have full confidence in him to do so even now
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7050/zeroty5copieie4.jpg
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Old 2008-08-08, 08:22   Link #1975
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Okay, we must have got different subs on this because mine said "Yes, if possible, I would have liked to have done that, with you." And so, if read in that sense he was actually just lamenting over the lost opportunity of the SAZ and his original intention of joining her... <_<
Your subs were wrong, then. He even did the dramatic bad guy act of deepening his voice and pointing his gun at her as he said "...with YOU."
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Now this is what I'm talking about, you're so incredibly shortsighted and lacking on all the details and considerations that its just not funny anymore. Did you not watch the scene where he said "You win, let's make a plan where the SAZ will become a success" Does that suddenly not show you that he gave up on the burden of Zero, that he chose to instead give up his rebellion and instead chose Euphie? And when did he make the choice otherwise, why when he had no other choice at all! And he did not say it was just to stop the Black Knights from falling apart, he also said he used it to start an insurrection against Britannia as well, which is what he did do with Euphie's death. How the hell does this suddenly work exactly? He was willing to take the blame despite not being responsible? Bull I say, he took on the burden precisely because it was in his eyes, his responsibility!
And you're blind, apparently. I already said Euphy was able to bring him down off his self-righteous pedestal and that I was PROUD of Lelouch during that moment with her. I never claimed that he went in with the intention of Geassing her. I said he KILLED her to make a political statement, not he GEASSED her to make a political statement. And no, he lied about his intentions and his blame to keep up the image of the -at-fault-for-everything Zero that was necessary for his lie to continue, as I've stated at least twice now.
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Blanket guilt? Goals? For Zero? For pete's goddamn sake he basically said Zero was just a facade to rally people around and was willing to give up on Zero's 'goals' as it were in order to get Suzaku to help protect Nunnally. Let me ask you something, about those lies that he told, were they real lies? Did he use his live Geass on Suzaku to save himself? Yes. Did he save Suzaku in order to gain the trust of the japanese? Yes. Did he rescue everyone in the hotel jacking in order to launch the Black Knights debut? Yes. Now where is the lie in this exactly, the thing he's holding back from Suzaku? He geassed Suzaku because he did indeed want him to live, he saved him from his execution because he was his friend and he cared about him, and he saved the hostages in the hotel jacking in order to rescue the Student Council. And yet, here he is, taking all of blame and none of the credit in this instance. Do you know why I draw the parallelism between him and Suzaku? Because deep down Suzaku wanted to be punished, to be made accountable for the burden he feels when he wasn't, as you yourself acknowledge and that is the parallel and the direct comparison I was trying to make with that instance and the one with Lelouch, about knowing that you were indeed responsible for everything you had done and when no one else punished you for it in the end. What Suzaku told Lelouch, instead of just sitting there and accepting punishment, was to truly make up for what he did he should keep up his lie in the end, and turn it into truth. And how is that a nonsensical statement? The logic is there, and exacting to what Lelouch himself believes in, that to end the war and the fighting someone has to finally win it.
Did Zero Geass Euphy because it would have destroyed the Black Knights and because he wanted to make the Japanese rise? No, it was a screw-up involving Geass, and he actually wanted to help Euphy with her SAZ. Pretending he did it intentionally was his easy way out here. Were Shirley and Euphy just pawns for Lelouch's ambition? No, they were two of the only people in the world Lelouch does NOT consider pawns or enemies. And his response to that question only enforces what I'm saying about his easy blanket-blame way out: "Yes, all sins are mine." And of course he follows this up immediately by trying to change the subject to Nunnally. He just wanted to give Suzaku the answers he thought he wanted to hear so he could move forward. That much is blatantly clear. And you have the parallel just a bit wrong, because while Lelouch was willing to just "take the blame" for his sins, he never felt that the things he was responsible for were sins or that the things he did consider sins were his fault. He was fine with Suzaku throwing all blame on him, "thinking all sins were his," simply to hide away the prospect of having to actually deal with the true guilt of his actions. Similarly, Suzaku blamed himself for the position the Japanese were put in even though that wasn't his doing, but it was all to hide away the true guilt he had over his father's death. Parallelism is not equality. That said, I do believe Lelouch was sincere about the things Suzaku asked him AFTER he basically told him to stop dicking around and stomped his head. And as for Lelouch's speech, I'm sorry, but it's even more contradictory than Suzaku's motives. My friend I showed CG to for the first time a few months ago actually laughed when Lelouch said it.
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What did Lelouch specifically do in that moment though? He stopped himself from making excuses, despite being true, he stripped himself of all defense and took responsibility for his actions all on his shoulders. I fully believe that he was sincere with his honest feelings in his lies, much like Suzaku was beneath his lies as well, that he blamed himself in the end and wanted others to blame him for it as well, to accept all the responsibility on his shoulders to make up for it. He humbled himself before Suzaku, threw away his pride, his ambitions, everything that was Zero and for that I learned to respect him for it. But like Suzaku in this instance, I didn't want him to just take the blame on himself, I wanted him to see him realize that he didn't need to shoulder everything and instead of just taking whatever came at him to turn his lies into real truths and values. In actuality, I think he was well on his way to really doing that even without Suzaku telling him, that his lies did indeed have meaning of their own in the end despite whatever his father said or condemned of them. That is why I suddenly won't disrespect his intentions or the meaning behind his initial act at the shrine, or what those moments in time really meant for him. And this is what I'm talking about, you oversimplify everything and take away any merit or intention behind his actions. Even when he said all that, he was crying in the end for pete's sake. The main point behind my entire argument with you was that he never solely cares about only one thing, its a mixture of all types of things, personal relationships, revenge, ambition, idealism, and values even when it seems only one part dominates the other, because even underneath the negative persona he weaves around him like with his lies (or half-truths more like it), at heart he still possess a strong character for what is right as well. My entire problem with your assessment of him has always been this disregard for all those aspects of his personality and limiting your view and consideration as such, painting a shallow image of a much deeper picture of who Lelouch really is.
I don't believe Lelouch got sincere during that talk until after Suzaku head-stomped him. Before that point, it was clear that he was just trying to tell Suzaku what he wanted to hear so he could move things more quickly and get to the saving Nunnally part. Unfortunately, nothing Suzaku asked him after the head-stomping had anything to do with "difficult" topics for Lelouch. This was all a plot contrivance, of course, since we know Lelouch would never be so sincere about what he did to Euphy and Shirley. And like I said but you seem to ignore, I acknowledge all those parts of Lelouch, but unfortunately, they're always in conflict with his lust for revenge, and he often loses sight of those other aspects, which ARE the important parts of his life. Every so often he needs someone like Euphy, Shirley, Nunnally or Suzaku to drag him back into reality. Like I said, I think my image of him is actually deeper than yours since you seem to take everything Lelouch says at face value.

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Originally Posted by hero147
Lelouch mentioned he would help her start SAZ after Euphemia stated she would forfeit her heir to the throne after SAZ got started. The original plan Lelouch had in mind wasn't to kill Euphemia, but rather have Euphemia kill zero, which would cause a riot in SAZ, which in turn would cause it to fail. Lelouch killing Euphemia was not a statement at all, if it was Zero would've nationally announced that he himself killed her, but he didnt.
I wasn't talking about that scene. As previously stated, we were discussing why Lelouch shot Euphy himself, not why he Geassed her in the first place. I was proud of Lelouch when he finally saw the important things in his life and let go of his crusade for vengeance.
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Old 2008-08-08, 10:17   Link #1976
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
Your subs were wrong, then. He even did the dramatic bad guy act of deepening his voice and pointing his gun at her as he said "...with YOU."
Oh sure, my subs must have been wrong because of the bad guy act, which I hardly thought was a bad guy act, more him being etched with regret as he made his decision <_<

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And you're blind, apparently. I already said Euphy was able to bring him down off his self-righteous pedestal and that I was PROUD of Lelouch during that moment with her. I never claimed that he went in with the intention of Geassing her. I said he KILLED her to make a political statement, not he GEASSED her to make a political statement. And no, he lied about his intentions and his blame to keep up the image of the -at-fault-for-everything Zero that was necessary for his lie to continue, as I've stated at least twice now.
No, I just made this statement before reading the last bit of your post, at the same time I find this extremely contradictory with what you say later as well and I'll get to that in a minute >_>

Alright, lets analysis that moment a little bit here. What was happening exactly, a massacre she was instigating under his orders, thousands of people dying all around him, while he goes around asking himself if he had to carry this sin, this burden on his shoulders and the responsibility for this disaster. Now, try and tell me this and tell me this honestly, did he solely want to kill Euphie just to use her later as a political tool for his gain? (which, BTW, also involved the prospect of political backlash amongst the survivors and no doubt the That's so narrow-minded it making me sick again. Because quite honestly, I do not see how you can convince anyone that he didn't care about what was going on, the deaths that she was inflicting around him, because of him, or that quite honestly he was happy seeing Euphie in this state. He knows better then anyone his Geass doesn't wear off, she was going to keep killing people, at the same time take a look at the post-analysis Lelouch made after the deed was done, that to her this was the most reprehensible order imaginable, something completely against her nature before breaking down in remorse and regret. I think this tells once again, how you seem to think that he's only ever out for one thing on his mind, that perhaps he actually wanted to stop this abhorrent massacre, that he perhaps knew this was the most unforgivable thing for Euphie to have done, and that perhaps put her down not just out for his own gain, but for those around him and for her as well? >_>

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Did Zero Geass Euphy because it would have destroyed the Black Knights and because he wanted to make the Japanese rise? No, it was a screw-up involving Geass, and he actually wanted to help Euphy with her SAZ. Pretending he did it intentionally was his easy way out here. Were Shirley and Euphy just pawns for Lelouch's ambition? No, they were two of the only people in the world Lelouch does NOT consider pawns or enemies. And his response to that question only enforces what I'm saying about his easy blanket-blame way out: "Yes, all sins are mine." And of course he follows this up immediately by trying to change the subject to Nunnally. He just wanted to give Suzaku the answers he thought he wanted to hear so he could move forward. That much is blatantly clear. And you have the parallel just a bit wrong, because while Lelouch was willing to just "take the blame" for his sins, he never felt that the things he was responsible for were sins or that the things he did consider sins were his fault. He was fine with Suzaku throwing all blame on him, "thinking all sins were his," simply to hide away the prospect of having to actually deal with the true guilt of his actions. Similarly, Suzaku blamed himself for the position the Japanese were put in even though that wasn't his doing, but it was all to hide away the true guilt he had over his father's death. Parallelism is not equality. That said, I do believe Lelouch was sincere about the things Suzaku asked him AFTER he basically told him to stop dicking around and stomped his head. And as for Lelouch's speech, I'm sorry, but it's even more contradictory than Suzaku's motives. My friend I showed CG to for the first time a few months ago actually laughed when Lelouch said it.
Once again, I'll point to the fact that it strips him of all defense, all the credit he could have gained had he been honest on that score. How is that in comparison to this the easy way out? To be willing to take all of those faults, all that responsibility even though it wasn't necessarily all his was admirable from my view point and a deeper revelation that on his part he does indeed blame himself for everything that happened, just as Suzaku did after noting the consequences of his actions after killing his father to stop the war (which he was indeed heavily responsible for) and never getting the punishment he thinks he deserves or being made accountable for that action in which others suffered because of it. It's not just about true guilt, it's about connected consequence as well and serving penance for that from his point of view. In this sense, I get the impression that deep down he really does blame himself for everything as the source of everything. This is the specific parallel I wanted to draw, the one Suzaku himself made, where all the lies were made to cover up the truth but underneath that he wanted to be made accountable for it nonetheless. In this case, I note that they both sought to strip themselves of their excuses, despite the reasons, circumstances, and intentions behind their respective acts, and thus receive what they both thought they deserved. This is by no means an easy way out from my perspective, he would have gotten better results out of Suzaku had he been fully honest with him on that matter, especially concerning Nunnally so why not take it? If anything, I think it was Lelouch being stuck in the past verses simply wanting to move forward. In any event, I think that if you can at least acknowledge that last part then we can go on to say the Lelouch is anything but that simplistic or that shallow if he was willing to give up everything you just said were important to him like that. As for Lelouch's speech, if anything I found it to be more insightful into a very true assessment, that the world was caught in an endless cycle of blood and torment, that in many respects couldn't go on as it were, and that it needed to end.

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I don't believe Lelouch got sincere during that talk until after Suzaku head-stomped him. Before that point, it was clear that he was just trying to tell Suzaku what he wanted to hear so he could move things more quickly and get to the saving Nunnally part. Unfortunately, nothing Suzaku asked him after the head-stomping had anything to do with "difficult" topics for Lelouch. This was all a plot contrivance, of course, since we know Lelouch would never be so sincere about what he did to Euphy and Shirley. And like I said but you seem to ignore, I acknowledge all those parts of Lelouch, but unfortunately, they're always in conflict with his lust for revenge, and he often loses sight of those other aspects, which ARE the important parts of his life. Every so often he needs someone like Euphy, Shirley, Nunnally or Suzaku to drag him back into reality. Like I said, I think my image of him is actually deeper than yours since you seem to take everything Lelouch says at face value.
Nothing is ever so clear cut, nothing is ever that simplistic. Yes he told Suzaku what he wanted to hear, but not for one second do I not think he didn't also believe that he was at fault for it in the end during that sequence, which was my whole point concerning stripping himself of all excuses and getting right to the part of not just saving Nunnally but of also paying for he believes really are his sins in the end. Despite you're saying that you acknowledge all those parts of Lelouch you seem to think that only one part is ever active or dominant during one time, that he loses all sight of things etc. etc. and that's just simplifying a much more complex person. He is never one thing at one point from my perspective, as were his responses to Suzaku about all his actions, which were true but as with him only part of the truth. My main point was though, that it is the struggle between those aspects of himself, that there are always underlying truths beneath his truth in a sense. I don't ever take anything he says at face value, because from what I see he always has more to it then just that, while I think you seem too preoccupied with what face he puts on at any given time versus keeping in mind all the other parts of his personality that don't just simply go away in between those moments, but are constantly there as well.

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I wasn't talking about that scene. As previously stated, we were discussing why Lelouch shot Euphy himself, not why he Geassed her in the first place. I was proud of Lelouch when he finally saw the important things in his life and let go of his crusade for vengeance.
This is what I'm talking about again, that you seem to think he only ever has one face on at any one time. Take his personal crusade for example, are you saying that he only ever cared about his own agenda? What about his beliefs, his views of how the strong should not bully the weak, his disgust with this abuse of power, that while stems from his own personal reasons seeps into his values and outlook as well, even when he was stripped of all those reasons he still displayed dissatisfaction and cynical condemnation of the system around him and carries that outlook into his persona as Zero. This is my main point concerning why I brought up the scene before shooting her, as an emphasis that despite whatever Lelouch may say he can't just simply turn his values on and off like that, that there is no one reason beneath his actions at that is true for when he shot Euphie as well, which I once again think you're over simplifying things again and thus are the one taking things at face value if you just say he did it for political reasons, and not able to see the underlying meaning behind his actions instead of the ones he just tells you.
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"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
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Old 2008-08-08, 22:17   Link #1977
El_Negro
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I watched over V for Vendetta last night (It still is f**king awesome)

I kinda wonder, if V was in the World of CG who would he support?

Lelouch or Suzaku and what would those two tell him?
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Old 2008-08-08, 22:22   Link #1978
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by El_Negro View Post
I watched over V for Vendetta last night (It still is f**king awesome)

I kinda wonder, if V was in the World of CG who would he support?

Lelouch or Suzaku and what would those two tell him?
Lelouch, due man, they share the same fashion sense and a flair for the dramatics
__________________
"That is why we must embrace carnage. In order to not waste the blood that has already been shed, we have no choice but to shed even more."- Lelouch Vi Britannia
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7050/zeroty5copieie4.jpg
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Old 2008-08-08, 22:49   Link #1979
Aquaman OS
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V would slap them both into shape and get them working together. I also think he'd force a happy medium path for the two of them combining Lelouch's "destroy Britannia" plan and Suzaku's "change Britannia from within" into "change Britannia from without by force" which is really what they should have done from the begining, and probably what Lelouch will wind up doing to resolve the plot. Whether Suzaku opposes this or not is up in the air.
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Old 2008-08-09, 00:51   Link #1980
Orga777
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V would choose the path that would result in total anarchy... So he wouldn't follow EITHER of them. At least, that is what the true, graphic novel version would do...<.<
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