AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-04-10, 22:21   Link #1
Blackmoon042
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Originality and Clichés in Various Series, Books, Etc.

Hi!,

I'm just curious, why are clichés so disliked so much? I mean, it’s nice, IMO, to have a refreshing series of x genre with some “originality” in it, but I honestly don’t understand how some people expect a series to be free from clichés. I’d agree with the people who aren’t too fond of clichés if we were in the early 1900’s or so, but now with all the series and books out, how can one really avoid at least a few clichés in their story/stories? I could see this happening maybe in a totally incoherent plot, where a lot of random and ridiculous things happen, or maybe something similar. Although there is a very, very, very high limit to the amount of potential stories out there, to be cliché free these days seems… well, definitely far from easy to pull off, IMO. Maybe I’m missing something, and I probably am, but I’m really curious about what your views are on this.


Thanks.
Blackmoon042 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-11, 13:57   Link #2
Gemstar
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Trinidad.....anyone get me out of here !
People don't like to be monotonous and use the same thing they already have before it gets tiring. The more you use cliches the less original you become. I tend to use words more from my heart than fact or text book. It is common sense to use text book meaning when having formal conversation but through informal you can use any. It's all about being understood and what is most important to you.
Gemstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-11, 14:19   Link #3
KholdStare
ISML Technical Staff
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to KholdStare Send a message via MSN to KholdStare
It's true that the less clichés you use, the more original you become, but we need to remember that clichés are used because they work. If you attempt to write a completely original book, then your risk is 100%. If you mix your book with some clichés, then at least you know it won't be a total failure.

For me, I don't care. I don't even mind 75% of clichés used in anime, as long as they're well executed. I'd rather watch something done already but better this time around than something completely unique but sucks.

Last edited by KholdStare; 2008-04-12 at 20:07.
KholdStare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-11, 15:05   Link #4
Claude
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Carolina
Age: 21
Send a message via AIM to Claude Send a message via Yahoo to Claude
I acutually like cliche anime/stories a lot. I don't know why but I just like the predictability/familiarity of them.
Claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-12, 16:39   Link #5
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Stories have been written down long, long before the early 1900s so if people could complain about clichés back then then we can do now. But that doesn't answer your question.

People complain about clichés because they feel betrayed. Using a cliché from the toolbox means less work for the story writer but he still expects you to pay the full price for the book, movie ticket, or whatever. People complain because they feel their time is being wasted. I've seen that all before so why am I here? People also complain about clichés because they are in effect a spoiler. They make parts of the plot predictable. People complain about clichés because they feel offended because they feel the author thinks they're so stupid not to see the cliché in the first place.

Enough reasons?

Finally, it's not that people always complain about clichés. There are clichés I'm very fond of, I admit. I think it's the same for many people.
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-12, 19:48   Link #6
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
cliches isn't the problem it is how the cliches are excuted that is the problem.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-12, 20:30   Link #7
Terrestrial Dream
勇者
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
cliches isn't the problem it is how the cliches are excuted that is the problem.
True if cliche is done right then it's good. Originality is good and all, but sometime just because the show is cliche is actually good (well it happened to me for few animes).
__________________
Terrestrial Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 00:07   Link #8
ApostleOfGod
^.^
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Toronto
Cliche is probably preferred by the general public. It's simply because the the idea of something cliche has sunk in so far deep into thought, that originality would seem rather "odd". In my situation, it depends. I'd prefer originality, it's always refreshing to watch some fresh stuff (obvious statement -_-). But sometimes, there's some cases where I say "Damn, why couldn't it have a cliche ending and not leave me sulking the next few days?"

It happens to us all! Right...?

__________________
There are two ways to live life.

One is to live life as if nothing is a miracle.

The other way is to live life as though everything is a miracle.
ApostleOfGod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 02:24   Link #9
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
When someone tells you something is "original"...... they're mostly either lying, confused, or under-educated about the past.

Its all about the execution and style. However, Slice_of_Life nails the heart of the problem.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 02:32   Link #10
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
When someone tells you something is "original"...... they're mostly either lying, confused, or under-educated about the past.
Good point, and it brings me to improve upon this: Everything, in terms of "originality", has been done already. Anything you do is not going to be original, since everything you've been exposed to has forcefully conditioned the outcome of the story/music piece you wrote. Grab the 12 semitones, mix them in any way into a simple melody line, and I can assure you that someone has done it before.

Quote:
Its all about the execution and style.
And I'd add the spectator to the mix. Art is art as long as it's perceived as such.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 04:35   Link #11
Dorfl
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The dog gossips too much.
Cliches being fun is the entire premise behind the existence of tvtropes.org
__________________
Dorfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 06:54   Link #12
Mueti
あ!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Japan
Age: 26
Send a message via ICQ to Mueti
Every thought has been thought, every story been written down, every melody been played. No work of art today can avoid the quotation of something that's already been done. Clichés are just the most obvious form of this phenomenon. I'm not sure whether the "quotation-mentality" is being embraced or not though when using obvious clichés. I often feel like it's the opposite and they're just being used out of ignorance of conventions or, more likely, laziness.
__________________
Mueti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 12:52   Link #13
KholdStare
ISML Technical Staff
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to KholdStare Send a message via MSN to KholdStare
And just something to add, clichés are called clichés because they work. The reason they're being used over and over again is because they work. Whether or not there's a point when things get overdone, that's a whole different story. That point is there, but usually it's way too over-dramatized. Some people see something two or three times and they hate it because in their minds, it becomes a cliché. This leads to originality being different for each and every single person, like every other concept out there.
KholdStare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 13:33   Link #14
Robotnik
Not a member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
And just something to add, clichés are called clichés because they work. The reason they're being used over and over again is because they work. Whether or not there's a point when things get overdone, that's a whole different story. That point is there, but usually it's way too over-dramatized. Some people see something two or three times and they hate it because in their minds, it becomes a cliché. This leads to originality being different for each and every single person, like every other concept out there.
There's also only so many different ways a given type of story can end due to the setting and type of characters involved, etc.

I have a bigger problem with people who want a story to have a "wtf?" ending twist for no reason, especially when it would contradict the rest of the story.
Robotnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 14:22   Link #15
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 22
Sigh, people are sadly confused on what a cliche even is.

1. Stereotypical - a widely held but fixed and oversimflied image or idea of a particular type of person or thing
2. in art, literature, drama, etc.) a trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of color, musical expression, etc.
3. anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse.

These are different ways to describe what cliche is, but

not cliche != original

Please clear this misconception. Yes there is nothing really truly original these days, but there are definitely many animes that are not cliches.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 14:42   Link #16
Mueti
あ!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Japan
Age: 26
Send a message via ICQ to Mueti
But then, it depends on the individual, where one draws the line, whether one considers something a cliché through overuse or not. I don't think common ground would be an easy thing to find here. I myself am not really sure where my border would be located, sometimes I'll find myself considering even the most basic boundaries to be stereotyped. Such as, say, the fact that there is a plot in the first place. Noone would really consider that a cliché I guess, yet it's one of the most common elements in (story)telling, one which even defines the term itself in a way. Maybe there are still barriers to be broken somewhere, I hope so. Not that I myself could come up with anything. Well, I guess I'm behind my time though, with the avantgarde being mostly out-dated after the beginning of so called post-modernism.

...I guess this is kinda of topic though, I'm sorry for interrupting the flow of the thread with my silly thoughts.
__________________
Mueti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 15:58   Link #17
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Sigh, people are sadly confused on what a cliche even is.

1. Stereotypical - a widely held but fixed and oversimflied image or idea of a particular type of person or thing
2. in art, literature, drama, etc.) a trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of color, musical expression, etc.
3. anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse.

These are different ways to describe what cliche is, but

not cliche != original

Please clear this misconception. Yes there is nothing really truly original these days, but there are definitely many animes that are not cliches.
Listen to that man! There is a difference between somebody having written something somehow similar at some time in the past and the 100th instance of the teenager how stumbles over the secret organization's gigantic human-shaped robot to save the day and/or the damsel in distress. These are differences that shouldn't be glossed over.

I think the litmus test is predictability. When you can tell what will happen beforehand then you've probably encountered a cliché. How original a story is that is something that can be judged only afterwards.
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 17:19   Link #18
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
When you can tell what will happen beforehand then you've probably encountered a cliché.
But if I've never seen a storyline like that before, I'll never be able to tell what happened beforehand. Even if it has been done quite repeatedly before and people who know the past clichés can notice what will happen beforehand.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 18:04   Link #19
qtipbrit
Buddhajew
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Diego
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
It's true that the less clichés you use, the more original you become, but we need to remember that clichés are used because they work. If you attempt to write a completely original book, then your risk is 100%. If you mix your book with some clichés, then at least you know it won't be a total failure.

For me, I don't care. I don't even mind 75% of clichés used in anime, as long as they're well executed. I'd rather watch something done already but better this time around than something completely unique but sucks.
Quoted for truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
cliches isn't the problem it is how the cliches are excuted that is the problem.
Yes, that's a large part of the problem. In my subjective personal opinion based on nothing, I would say maybe 95% or more of everthing fiction is cliché. The way someone approaches that cliché is what makes something "original".
Using anime as an example, some recent anime people have dubbed "original" include True Tears, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, and uh, not much else.
True Tears is considered original because it takes an old concept (harems and love triangles) and transforms it into something different. Instead of angsting teenagers with relationship drama and jealous moments, you have the same internal conflict and indecisiveness based on more original concepts, most of which would be spoilers, but those who have seen it would recognise it.
Higurashi no Naki Koro ni is, simply put, killer lolis with suspense and a touch of mystery. We've seen killer lolis before, we've seen horror/suspense, but Higurashi brought a different take on it with short arcs and stories that play out independently from one another, and it leaves the viewer guessing as to what has actually happened as opposed to "Oh, she just killed that guy gruesomely using a blunt envelope opener. Okay! On to the next guy."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Listen to that man! There is a difference between somebody having written something somehow similar at some time in the past and the 100th instance of the teenager how stumbles over the secret organization's gigantic human-shaped robot to save the day and/or the damsel in distress. These are differences that shouldn't be glossed over.
Though I lol'd, I must say: exactly. As I said, clichés are cliché only if approached in a cliché way.
All mecha is about some kid in a big metal suit, but why are Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Code Geass so popular? One diverges from the normal "power-up shounen" genre with some original twists and some added events, while one added its own sense of ingenuity, making its scenarios different from the general 583626 mecha on each side charging at eachother while two individual mecha spend an egregiously long time fighting one another for some reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
I think the litmus test is predictability. When you can tell what will happen beforehand then you've probably encountered a cliché. How original a story is that is something that can be judged only afterwards.
The Tower of Druaga comes to mind.
In the closing scenes of the first episode, I was literally waiting with my hand in front of my face ready to facepalm.
I was not disappointed.

Technically, I was disappointed, but my ready facepalm was not.
For those who don't care or won't ever watch it anyway, (probably most of you.)
Spoiler for Tower of Druaga:
Oh Gonzo, Gonzo, Gonzo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
But if I've never seen a storyline like that before, I'll never be able to tell what happened beforehand. Even if it has been done quite repeatedly before and people who know the past clichés can notice what will happen beforehand.
Also true.
Had I not seen Maria-sama ga Miteru before Strawberry Panic, I would have thought: "Oh, fixing her bow is such a nice and original yuri way for the two to get closer! The piano scene afterwards is also so cute, they play together and etc. etc. etc."
And still, I can't seem to get myself to care that it's obviously taking some of its ideas from another series. I just see the series as it is, and I don't really take this into account.
(It's also a largely different twist on the story, romantic interests, general character designs, hair colour, etc.)
__________________
qtipbrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-13, 19:00   Link #20
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
But if I've never seen a storyline like that before, I'll never be able to tell what happened beforehand. Even if it has been done quite repeatedly before and people who know the past clichés can notice what will happen beforehand.
I don't want to nitpick but, well, screw that, I love to nitpick ...

"If you can tell then it's a cliché." does not imply "If you can't tell then it's not a cliché."
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.