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Old 2010-06-25, 07:25   Link #4061
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Andy Richter View Post
Apologies, I haven't read the last few pages but:

The two patches idea for EP6 was scrapped with the recent burst in speed, I'm assuming?
Yes, there won't be any partial patch. We will release a full patch as soon as we are done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
What does an editor actually do? Is it just reading through to catch typos and the like? If so, would it speed up editing to release a beta version to the community for them to catch typos? Or do the editors rework entire paragraphs and the like?
The work of an editor is much more tricky than this. You have to be sure the sentence "makes" sense in English (some japanese structure really doesn't work in English), and you have to factor the said context.
Let's take an easy example: ここはどこですか
If you were to translate literally, it would be: Here/this [place], where is it?
Of course, you would rather translate it into "Where is this place"? But this line can also mean "Where are we/am I?".

This is quite a very dumb easy example, but if you consider how complex some sentences are in umineko, you quickly realize that there are a lot of "possible" translations for a given japanese line. Because of this, editors have to figure if the translation is nailing the point.

Half of the job is to figure if the context is properly conveyed, while the other half is indeed a check regarding typo, grammar and the flow/structure of the sentences.
Umineko is really an atrocious story to deal with due to the editing progress, because the words and sentences themselves can be clues, foreshadowing points etc.
Missing a subtle detail in a red truth line can screw a lot of points in the short or even long run. This is the reason why editing is often much slower than the translation phase, moreso with Umineko.
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Old 2010-06-25, 08:27   Link #4062
Leafsnail
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I can imagine red text designed to trick or mislead the reader doesn't exactly lend itself to easy translation either...
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Old 2010-06-25, 08:55   Link #4063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorahk View Post
I'd like to point out that it's really uneccessary to have two groups translating umineko.
Why? As you likely know, this sort of thing is extremely common in the anime fansub community.

There's no point in having a team that doesn't mesh well together. Both groups realize this which is why they've decided to work separately.
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Old 2010-06-25, 09:27   Link #4064
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First, the usual disclaimer--I don't represent the entire group's opinion, this is just how I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
What does an editor actually do? Is it just reading through to catch typos and the like? If so, would it speed up editing to release a beta version to the community for them to catch typos? Or do the editors rework entire paragraphs and the like?
Well, I think there are some issues with the idea of a "beta version"... first, while there are players who are working hard to solve the mystery and will reread a game multiple times, there are several readers who are largely in it for the story, and who would jump on and read through the beta, then never go back for the completed version.

Also, as a group that's openly committed itself to quality and bringing everyone the most accurate translation possible (especially since subtleties can be very important in Umineko), it would be a massive disservice to everyone to release something incomplete--downright lazy and irresponsible, really.

I know there are a bunch of people out there who complain about WH being slow, or not constantly updating the numbers on our site (as if this will make the translation any faster!), but please understand that we take our time and shoulder this criticism in order to bring the best translation we can to you all. It's not at all like we hate you or want to keep the game out of your hands for a long time... what we do is out of love and respect for the game and its readers.
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Old 2010-06-25, 09:39   Link #4065
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I would assume the editing process involves a typo sweep, then a lot of translation judgment calls ("What does this part mean?" or "Is this the best way to convey the line?" or "Does the character in question speak this way?"), which almost certainly require close coordination with the translators. That's probably the longest part of it. Then there's probably a more generalized check for consistency, continuity, and flow, followed by some subsequent typo/grammar checks to make sure there were no errors in anything changed.

Then probably three-four more checks juuuuuust to make sure.
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Old 2010-06-25, 11:35   Link #4066
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And I suppose it's a good idea to keep in mind that the Umineko games take one or two days to read thoroughly and completely. And if they wish to EDIT IT thoroughly and completely... They're gonna need some time.
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Old 2010-06-25, 12:51   Link #4067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scwizard View Post
Why? As you likely know, this sort of thing is extremely common in the anime fansub community.

There's no point in having a team that doesn't mesh well together. Both groups realize this which is why they've decided to work separately.
It may be common in the anime fansub community, of course there are probably more fansubs than new animes coming every season and a reasonably good group can translate more than one series in a small ammount of time... but this has nothing to do with VN translations.

There are very few active groups that works with that kind of media because of the work that it takes, even less groups stay together long enough to translate everything, even more in a reasonably spam of time.

And there are many many good VNs out there that need translating.

As long as my opinion stands, two groups translating Umineko is a HUGE waste of manpower.
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Old 2010-06-25, 13:17   Link #4068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
What does an editor actually do? Is it just reading through to catch typos and the like? If so, would it speed up editing to release a beta version to the community for them to catch typos? Or do the editors rework entire paragraphs and the like?
Klash put it pretty well, I think. There's just so much more to it than just typo checks that it can be maddening.
Now, I can't speak for everyone, but this is how I do it:
-Opens up text file with the Script (Japanese lines above the English lines).

-Reads Japanese line.

-If there are any words I don't know, or parts I don't understand in the Japanese line, I look them up in a dictionary and read example sentences, to make sure I get the full feel.

-Reads Translated line.

-Rereads Japanese line.

-Debates with self: Are there any mistranslations? Are there any words that would better convey the same meaning? Is the flow of the sentence correct? Is it too literal or too lose? Is there a reference going on here that might have been missed? Do the tenses and pronouns and quantities and quantifiers all match up? Are there any comma splices? Misspellings? Breaks in voice that feel unnecessary? Any repetition from previous lines that makes these lines feel stale?

-Copies a line I have issue with to a different text file.

-Copies the English line and pastes it underneath the original, edits it, and bolds all changes.

-Explains beneath the edits as to why I made those changes/Make suggestions as to what could be done to help.

-Rinse and repeat for an entire chapter, and remember that some chapters can be huge.

-Then I send them to Chrono when I'm done, and lord knows what he has to do with that.


I'm probably waaaaay too picky (I'm an English Writing Major, after all), so it takes quite a while to comb through.
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Last edited by Squirrellord; 2010-06-25 at 13:39.
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Old 2010-06-25, 21:47   Link #4069
Pika_power
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Ah. So editing requires knowledge of Japanese. I thought it may have simply been typo-checking, or something else the community could help with, but I guess not.
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Old 2010-06-28, 02:01   Link #4070
Thunder Book
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Guys, I'm going to cast a spell that will give you the extra mental strength and prowess to translate and edit more quickly.

If you don't believe though it won't work.

"Pim poom pom."

*waves hands in a magical manner*
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Old 2010-06-28, 02:18   Link #4071
Kylon99
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I don't know if I've mentioned this before but I also used a separate program to help Translation Aggregator called TAHelper. It specifically intercepts and replaces text before it 'hits' Translation Aggregator. I used it more for replacing names in EP5 as I was slowly getting used to the kanji for the names. Although I don't need it anymore it's useful to help people adjust from English -> Japanese names.

http://hongfire.com/forum/showthread...63#post1811363

Here's the program in operation. Notice the Kanon at the bottom; I didn't do that. I think whoever wrote it put it there; maybe to help with Umineko in the first place. 8)
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6796/tahelper.png

Here's the text of the names I used, you can copy and paste it into the same box as I have it. Notice the tab character between the Kanji and the English name. Also, you could

Spoiler for Space ... and maybe some EP5 spoiler names!:


Oh and Translation Aggregator is here for those who still need it:
http://www.hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94395

So.. are we all set for EP7?

Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-12-29 at 18:25.
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Old 2010-06-28, 19:40   Link #4072
lesengirz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Guys, I'm going to cast a spell that will give you the extra mental strength and prowess to translate and edit more quickly.

If you don't believe though it won't work.

"Pim poom pom."

*waves hands in a magical manner*
I suddenly Feel hot, i wonder why you're starting to look more sexy!

By the way I just read all of the tips And I'm getting hyped up again!
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Old 2010-06-28, 19:53   Link #4073
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
Ah. So editing requires knowledge of Japanese. I thought it may have simply been typo-checking, or something else the community could help with, but I guess not.
Not exactly, but editing is much more effective if the said editor has japanese knowledge.
That said, we sort of combined the job of editing and Translation Check to some of our editors who can figure out the original line (Squirrel is our main vanguard for this. As for me, I can figure something... like once each X chapters )

If it is editing alone, it is really about keeping the flow of the translation in English, whilst it remains the most faithful possible.
Well, it is a long story short, but really, Japanese isn't really a "complicated" language on its own. More like it is a true PITA when it comes to translation, since you are then screwed due to inherent differences between Japanese and English (no mandatory subject: can be often implied, fancy kanji use, etc etc).
So translation checking is packed in the lot and is perhaps the most critical point.

This is mainly the reason we cannot draw out of our hat a random edit progress %, because we may suddenly have to redo a lot of things or whatnot.
The simple fact we may be the cause of confirmation or rebuttal of a theory due to some adaptation issue is by no mean a joyful thought. Consider it as our main stress factor.

This is also why the whole deal with Shkanon bias doesn't exactly impress me, sharply against our policy.
(funnily enough, Shkanon theory is so much of a minority in our staff that it was quite ironic that we were called biased about it... I think I've demonstrated my position about it but oh well).

Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-06-28 at 20:05.
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Old 2010-06-28, 19:56   Link #4074
lesengirz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Not exactly, but editing is much more effective if the said editor has japanese knowledge.
That said, we sort of combined the job of editing and Translation Check to some of our editors who can figure out the original line (Squirrel is our main vanguard for this. As for me, I can figure something... like once each X chapters )

If it is editing alone, it is really about keeping the flow of the translation in English, whilst it remains the most faithful possible.
Well, it is a long story short, but really, Japanese isn't really a "complicated" language on its own. More like it is a true PITA when it comes to translation, since you are then screwed due to inherent differences between Japanese and English (no mandatory subject: can be often implied, fancy kanji use, etc etc).
So translation checking is packed in the lot and is perhaps the most critical point.

This is mainly the reason we cannot draw out of our hat a random edit progress %, because we may suddenly have to redo a lot of things or whatnot.
The simple fact we may be the cause of confirmation or rebuttal of a theory due to some adaptation issue is by no mean a joyful thought. Consider it as our main stress factor.

This is also why the whole deal with Shkanon bias doesn't exactly impress me, sharply against our policy.
(funnily enough, Shkanon theory is so much of a minority in our staff that it was quite ironic that we were called biased about it... I think I've demonstrated my position about it but oh well).

I see, your example of ここはどこ was very good, if you ask me, I understoond the point of what you ware triying to say.

Anyway best wishes and good luck
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Old 2010-06-28, 20:04   Link #4075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
This is mainly the reason we cannot draw out of our hat a random edit progress %, because we may suddenly have to redo a lot of things or whatnot.
This is what we, or at least I, personally in the industry call... a placebo bar. 8) "Estimated remaining time, 53 mins..." "59 mins." "1.5 hours" "2.1 hours" "10 days"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
This is also why the whole deal with Shkanon bias doesn't exactly impress me, sharply against our policy.
(funnily enough, Shkanon theory is so much of a minority in our staff that it was quite ironic that we were called biased about it... I think I've demonstrated my position about it but oh well).
Since Chronotrig was such a huge proponent of that theory, I'm guessing people must have thought the whole staff thought that way too. I'd ask you guys to take time out and let us know your thoughts but then... I'm not sure I'd really want to be the guy asking that.
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Old 2010-06-28, 20:14   Link #4076
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Well... it is like any umineko reader: some of us post their thoughts and theories whenever they feel like it (which I did, but I guess it was definitely skimmed, due to the dramatic size of the thread)

That being said, I doubt the timing for now is right considering what's left on the to-do list for Episode 6.
I wish I could just figure what's in Ryukishi's head for that (not the first time mind you: for example, the hellish red text said by Beato in Episode 4... the "please kill me" with some crazy crop.
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Old 2010-06-28, 20:14   Link #4077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
This is what we, or at least I, personally in the industry call... a placebo bar. 8) "Estimated remaining time, 53 mins..." "59 mins." "1.5 hours" "2.1 hours" "10 days"
First time i heard that word, I'm sorry but could you get in details of what it means?

Best wishes.
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Old 2010-06-28, 20:15   Link #4078
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This is what we, or at least I, personally in the industry call... a placebo bar. 8) "Estimated remaining time, 53 mins..." "59 mins." "1.5 hours" "2.1 hours" "10 days"
that's the same thing windows does all the time.

Quote:
Since Chronotrig was such a huge proponent of that theory, I'm guessing people must have thought the whole staff thought that way too. I'd ask you guys to take time out and let us know your thoughts but then... I'm not sure I'd really want to be the guy asking that.
Chronotrig is the main translator so I guess that's why that "bias" thing begun to spread, but Chrnotrig is absolutely not the kind of guy that would let his personal opinions interfere with his translation. Avoiding to make an even subtly wrong translation that might make people divert from the truth is actually one of his major concerns.

Think about it. In the end we will know which is the truth. At that point an element that made the ledge move toward the opposite way will be promptly pointed out and analyzed. If then it's found out that the translation was wrong, that would be like 1000 times worse than a typo. Chronotrig has absolutely no interest for such a thing to happen.
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Old 2010-06-28, 20:20   Link #4079
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesengirz View Post
First time i heard that word, I'm sorry but could you get in details of what it means?

Best wishes.
The placebo effect is just your usual "improved effect" of something you get/use, only after you have learnt the said effect first hand.
For example, it is common knowledge that a medecine effect is more "effective" when the said patient know its effect and/or expect to work this way. For instance: it isn't unusual to have patients at hospital being relieved more quickly from their pain if you tell them you are giving them painkillers, compared to if you do without telling them what were these shiny pills.

In a non medecine context, it is just a false "positive" impression a person might have.
For example: Increasing the number of updates would make certain people think that a project go faster, despite it is the exact same pace, even if you update its % 2 times less. (like Updating 20% 4 times will look faster than the same % but twice only, within the same time frame)


There is also the so called "nocebo" effect, which is the total opposite: a diminished effect due to the person thinking negatively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Avoiding to make an even subtly wrong translation that might make people divert from the truth is actually one of his major concerns.
More like it is the top concern of the whole staff.
In the end, there is no guarantee that we are close to the perfect translation, but I believe our efforts to update everything up to the most recent episode released each time is a definite proof of what our policy is.
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Old 2010-06-28, 20:20   Link #4080
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesengirz View Post
First time i heard that word, I'm sorry but could you get in details of what it means?
It just means a progress bar that has no real relationship to when the job is done. I doubt it's an official term; I'm trying to get it coined. :3 For example the 'progress' bar in IE6 while it connects to a site. It goes up slowly but it's not really doing anything. It just makes you think it is when all it is doing is just waiting for a response.

Therefore.. placebo bar. 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Chronotrig has absolutely no interest for such a thing to happen.
I just mean I don't want to be the one asking for the translation team to take time out to do anything else. I may get mobbed...
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