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Old 2011-10-23, 19:35   Link #6981
rogerpepitone
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The important part of that is "(which was permitted by the copyright holder)", not "because they weren't distributing anything but a translated script".
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Old 2011-10-24, 07:46   Link #6982
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Originally Posted by DoktorFunk View Post
In any case, I think MainCharacter is saying "The reason why there is no legal issue here is because they aren't distributing anything but a translated script (which was permitted by the copyright holder)"
I understood him to mean that there was no legal issue even before WH got permission. And that would be incorrect - there are definitely legal issues with distributing a translation without permission.

(Also note that while R07 is the sole owner of the PC script, that doesn't mean he's the sole owner of the PSP script. So for the PSP one'd probably need to get permission from other parties as well.)
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Old 2011-10-24, 15:18   Link #6983
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
We never planned to drop it to begin with.
Really, on the offchance we decide to do so (which would be unlikely, even if a "miracle" is needed for that), we would announce it -right- away, not dragging it for months.

Again: the problem is that our main translator, chrono, has a job since june, which dramatically sucked dry his free time (compared to what we could do the past 3-4 years).
This is why we only translated 15% after 4-5 months: Chrono's free time is literally 10 times shorter than what it used to be, hence the current situation we are in, but recently, he could have a few free week end, hence the possible update.

Now, people might ask: why not hiring other translators?
The thing is: having several translators is really not the best option for a translation project considering it is very rare to have translators having the same skills, but more importantly: the same style and perspective.
It isn't like we don't want to, but in practice, it may be really too much of a clash than anything else.
Chrono wishes not to resort to that solution -if possible-, but if it is considered as required, we will officially ask if there isn't anyone ready for this job. But as for now, we are trying to wrap it up.

As for our objective, we hope to deliver it by the end of the year, but that's only an objective. It isn't an ETA or anything.
It is the best option if it means the VN gets done.

I am appreciate of the work Witch Hunt has done so far, but I honestly would have rathered you just hand the reigns over to someone who could actually finish it. I don't see this being done by the end of the year at the rate you're going at. Sometimes you have to admit defeat on these things.

I also think it was a bad idea releasing a 50% patch in this regard. At least if people were waiting for the full EP, they'd maintain interest. Now they're mostly just looking for the ending, and a lot of people have an idea of how it ends.


IMO a lot of people are going to loose interest in Umineko by the time it's finished, and that's very sad. That really should have been avoided.
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Old 2011-10-24, 16:26   Link #6984
Yirba
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Releasing translated scripts of the PC version is illegal. However, most people are willing to turn a blind eye, since it requires a copy of the game itself.

The important thing is… would a patch improve or hinder sales of the game. In the case of the PC game, the patches would encourage people to buy the game so that they can play it. In the case of distributing the PS3 sprites, it would hinder sales because it would cause people to not buy the PS3 version.

-----

As for 'handing the reigns over', that won't happen unless Witch Hunt feel they are unable to produce a translation. If someone out there wants to translate it themselves, I'm sure no one would mind too much.

I do think that if at all possible, the translation should be completed by Witch Hunt. It would be confusing for some people if they had to download the translation for episodes 1-7 from one site, and episode 8 from another site. It would just fragment things, and isn't what we really want.
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Old 2011-10-24, 18:11   Link #6985
zorahk
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Can we just give up on the translating the PS3 and PSP games please? Far too much discussion of it tbh, it's not going to happen and any fan who tries to does it is likely to get alchemists lawyer team on them.
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Old 2011-10-24, 19:39   Link #6986
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Originally Posted by Yirba View Post
As for 'handing the reigns over', that won't happen unless Witch Hunt feel they are unable to produce a translation. If someone out there wants to translate it themselves, I'm sure no one would mind too much.

I do think that if at all possible, the translation should be completed by Witch Hunt. It would be confusing for some people if they had to download the translation for episodes 1-7 from one site, and episode 8 from another site. It would just fragment things, and isn't what we really want.
I would rather not have to wait 1-2 years for such a translation.

If ChronoTrig couldn't do it, they should have brought in another translator. Most other translation groups will do this to the best of my knowledge. Again I appreciate the work up until now but this is starting to look a little arrogant, like only ChronoTrig has the skills to do it right.

I can't see how having to go to another site, which would probably be linked on Witch Hunt's to begin with and vice versa would put people out more than waiting 3-4 times as long as normal for the translation. Again, at this rate, people are just going to lose interest.

I don't want to come across as entitled(though I do believe if people have skills and can bring them to the community - they should, as not all of us have the patience or ability) but it does feel like they're dicking with the fans now. If this was a VN that hadn't been translated at all it wouldn't be so bad, but to leave people hanging half way through an EP is really bad form. They shouldn't have released the 50% patch in the first place.
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Old 2011-10-24, 20:22   Link #6987
The Creator
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When they released the first patch, chrono wasn't working yet. They were hoping to have the second part in the following months.

I sucks horribly having to wait almost a year for the second part of the translation, but you can't blame them for having a partial patch. If you didn't want to stop halfway, you should have like me and many others and not read the partial patch.


We all have a really big abstinence but remember, this is the last patch. When you've finally finished it, you know it's gonna be much more sweet because of the really long wait you had.

After this one, it's all over (unless ryu decides to make a "rei" kind of epilogue). Try to flavor it, while you still can.
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Old 2011-10-24, 21:09   Link #6988
Yirba
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Originally Posted by Roseweave View Post
I would rather not have to wait 1-2 years for such a translation.

If ChronoTrig couldn't do it, they should have brought in another translator. Most other translation groups will do this to the best of my knowledge. Again I appreciate the work up until now but this is starting to look a little arrogant, like only ChronoTrig has the skills to do it right.

I can't see how having to go to another site, which would probably be linked on Witch Hunt's to begin with and vice versa would put people out more than waiting 3-4 times as long as normal for the translation. Again, at this rate, people are just going to lose interest.

I don't want to come across as entitled(though I do believe if people have skills and can bring them to the community - they should, as not all of us have the patience or ability) but it does feel like they're dicking with the fans now. If this was a VN that hadn't been translated at all it wouldn't be so bad, but to leave people hanging half way through an EP is really bad form. They shouldn't have released the 50% patch in the first place.
As Witch Hunt have said, chronotrig is current working on the translation. There is progress, but it's just very slow. As they have also said, they will open the doors to other translators if they feel it is necessary. Switching to another translator may sound like a good idea, but it could possibly mean a difference in writing style, which would clash with the existing translation.

Perhaps releasing the 50% patch wasn't the best idea, but Witch Hunt are certainly doing what they feel is best for the project and for the translation itself. Perhaps I would do something a little different if I were in their position, but that doesn't matter. It's their translation, and I fully support whatever action they choose to take on their project.

At the end of the day, Witch Hunt want the patch released as much as you do.
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Old 2011-10-25, 11:50   Link #6989
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roseweave View Post
It is the best option if it means the VN gets done.
Assuming the current situation was severe to the point it wouldn't be finished at all, I would agree. However, I see no reason to think it won't be done.
Quote:
I am appreciate of the work Witch Hunt has done so far, but I honestly would have rathered you just hand the reigns over to someone who could actually finish it. I don't see this being done by the end of the year at the rate you're going at. Sometimes you have to admit defeat on these things.
People didn't expect us to finish ep4 and 6 before their respective "next comiket" either, yet we managed to do so. (Not saying the circumstances are the same, but the concept is the same: some of you already gave up on it, seeing a "certain pace").
There are plenty competent translators regarding such projects, and I feel no problem in saying it, but the question is: who would take the reins?
A lot of teams have already their own plate full, and because we can't finish as fast as before, we should then ask people for something they aren't event involved? I see where you are coming from, but from our perspective, it isn't really a flawless solution either, unless really someone is that willing to do that (as we said, we never had any problem with other's people help, and even at some point, some people tried to do their own translation, and we didn't sue them or whatever. If they want to translate something, by all means, be my guest).

Also, it isn't like we didn't try having more people on the boat in order to make things faster, however, things didn't always go that well: initial project was basically a ghost ship with absolutely none answering our request for help (Wiki period) whatsoever. We had that cooperation with tcaz2's group, and without any skill issue aside from the communication mishaps, the whole deal didn't work because we couldn't synch that well.
I'm not trying to say we are the only choice for this franchise or whatsoever. However, regardless of their skills, ever since our announcement of time issue for episode 8, we have yet seen anyone offering such kind of assistance or wish to carry over the whole task.

And if we announce we stop working on it, what will people think then? Doomed to have no translation for the last episode, until someone shows up? That's something even worse than "slow progression": instead, you are left with nothing but mere hopes that someone would take the thing over.

Last but not the least, I'm not pretending Umineko is impossibly complicated/long. That being said, it seems that the pace we have been sailing for the past episodes seem to be something "granted" for the following episodes, despite translating an episode isn't always the same as translating another one, even if it is the same author (that and usual external factors).
I sincerely understand the wait is quite long, but on the other hand, a good chunk of translation projects take a lot of times (unless you are a madman like Ixrec, of course), so 1 year by itself is really not that long compared to other projects (not saying those are slow. I'm only comparing the time required for projects as a tangent. Obviously, the ressource, time, staff, game, etc are entirely different, keep that in mind).

I'm not saying that you should accept that loss of translation speed with open arms. However, I want people to have the whole picture in mind and trust us a little bit. Just like before, if we could do it faster, we would have done it already. However, things are not as easy as before, that's all to be said. Therefore, suddenly thinking it won't be done is really rash.
Quote:
I also think it was a bad idea releasing a 50% patch in this regard. At least if people were waiting for the full EP, they'd maintain interest. Now they're mostly just looking for the ending, and a lot of people have an idea of how it ends.
IMO a lot of people are going to loose interest in Umineko by the time it's finished, and that's very sad. That really should have been avoided.
I see the other way around: those who can wait would wait either way, while those who can't at least managed to read something.
Really, the situation would have been the same if a partial patch wasn't released, if not worse: the time for the full patch would be stuck at it is, and people who can't wait for it would actually spoil themselves one way or another.

I'm no diviner or anything, but I can't see any reason to think that the situation would be "drastically different" should there was no patch. Those who lose interest after nearly a year would still lose interest after the same timespan, while those who can't wait for the patch would probably be spoiled.
I can understand that a slower patch may be a factor regarding a withering interest to the franchise, but a partial patch has nothing to do with that, since the wait would have been the same, altough in the other case, things would have been much more ugly.
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Originally Posted by Roseweave View Post
I would rather not have to wait 1-2 years for such a translation.
It hasn't been a full year yet, and I think you should check other projects to see what kind of "long wait" you can have, and that doesn't mean they are slow.
Quote:
If ChronoTrig couldn't do it, they should have brought in another translator. Most other translation groups will do this to the best of my knowledge. Again I appreciate the work up until now but this is starting to look a little arrogant, like only ChronoTrig has the skills to do it right.
It isn't like Chrono -can't- do it. He just can't do it as fast as he could before.
And I never stated only Chrono can do that. What I said is that style and other matters won't mesh well (especially if it will require additional restrictions such like mutual report, further discussions in unifiying the translation, spreading the work evenly etc).
For example, our own translation was pretty much affected by that: regardless of the skill, Theace, Tobiast and Chrono didn't have the same kind of style and translation, despite based on the same Ep1 chapter.
If we factor everything we have translated before, adding the complexity of Ep8, it is unlikely things will go really "smoothly" with someone who has a different perspective (and that's again, not related to skills). But if there is anyone being able to do that, that would be a lifesaver, and I wouldn't have any problem with that (such things occured in the past, but due to their waning free time, they slowly became editors instead... Such like Squirrel and crystalweaver).

This is the only reason why we aren't -actively- looking for another translator -yet-, but also it doesn't mean we would refuse that (cf the previous point).
Quote:
I can't see how having to go to another site, which would probably be linked on Witch Hunt's to begin with and vice versa would put people out more than waiting 3-4 times as long as normal for the translation. Again, at this rate, people are just going to lose interest.
And it seems you are getting spoiled a bit: "as long as normal"... what is normal then? That we "have" to translate within 3-5 months? Regardless of the circumstances, such as the game itself and all external factors?

Look, I think there is something we can agree: that the translation should get released ASAP.
What I disagree here is that how you seem to expect Umineko to meet "your own ETA" without even looking at the big picture. Surely, you might have a faster ETA with another group, but at the same time, another group would be slower or even give up at some point.
With "if" and whatnot, you can do anything you want within any schedule you want, so the argument is really moot.

I do not imply we have no responsibility in there, but I seriously can't accept the fact that a "translation must met X or Y ETA" as if a customer asked a certain task to a company.
Quote:
I don't want to come across as entitled(though I do believe if people have skills and can bring them to the community - they should, as not all of us have the patience or ability) but it does feel like they're dicking with the fans now. If this was a VN that hadn't been translated at all it wouldn't be so bad, but to leave people hanging half way through an EP is really bad form. They shouldn't have released the 50% patch in the first place.
We certainly released the partial patch, but we never and ever encouraged or forced people to read it. It was up to people who were too impatient, so instead of leaving people with absolutely nothing but mere summaries/rumors/(fake spoilers) etc, we made that choice, which is nearly the same as releasing a patch with not all the routes of a game.

Furthermore, as The Creator stated, we did NOT expect such circumstance to arise.
While we usually have quite a busy schedule around May-June, this year was entirely different. There was no way for us to guess that Chrono's boss would literally cut short the internship and hire him on the spot back in early june.
I might go extreme with the following example but: should I then expect the possibility that one of us get into an accident and being unable to work on this, leading to a slower process? Is anyone really able to release everything with every possible issues in mind?
We didn't have much worry about the second half of the episode, until that lifestyle change occured to chrono. If you really think we should have foreseen that, I really can't say anything anymore.

Really, if you want my honest opinion, I would say you are just getting impatient, but also mixing up issues (as: can't do the patch / too slow / 50% partial). I however know where you are coming from, and I can say that: we are the first being frustrated not being able to finish immediately what we have started. That's also why we are persevering, especially after all these years. Really, I think we are the ones who want that project to be done the soonest possible the most, without any exaggeration.
I want to make things clear: our objective is to deliver Umineko in English for the community who can't read japanese. If someone can do the job with or without us, that's fair game.
That's the only way I can describe the purpose of our group.
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Old 2011-10-25, 13:16   Link #6990
RedKey
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Those who ask for a fast translation just don't have any sense of wait IMO. Umineko has been one of the fastest fan translation projects I've ever seen in my life, moreover, WH is doing a crazy good job on it.

As I already said on Twitter to you, Klash, I think leaving the project to another group would only cause unnecessary problems: not only the writing style would be different, but who said the eventual 'new' translators would be capable of doing a job as well done and rapid as yours?

Think about it guys. WH said EP8 will likely be ready for the end of the year. If they leave it to someone else, between finding people up to the job, reorganizing, translating, etc. it would take MUCH more for an unknown quality result. It's a gamble I wouldn't be willing to take.
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Old 2011-10-25, 13:22   Link #6991
Klashikari
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Correction: we never said it is "likely be ready for the end of the year". I stated clearly that our objective, thus intent, is "the end of the year".
That's what we want to, but that's no ETA at all. I don't want to give false promises or things we have no idea if it is realistic or not at this point.

That is just our aim and wish to be done with it by that timeframe. Of course, we will pour all of our efforts to do so, regardless if it will meet such objective or not.
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Old 2011-10-25, 18:32   Link #6992
Tiduas
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Well, Umineko made my interest for VNs exist in the first place and while waiting for EP8 there's like a ton of other things to read meanwhile! I always get so damn happy every time a new episode is released and the surprise of finding the brand new translation without knowing about it on beforehand is part of the charm.
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Old 2011-10-25, 21:35   Link #6993
VDZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari on Twitter
For #Umineko fans: what's your opinion about this post http://tinyurl.com/6g9ep54 and subsequent ones? Trying to gather more feedback etc.
On the one hand, I would really like to see The Witch Hunt complete the patch, even if it takes longer than usual. As you pointed out yourself, there's tons of issues with getting another translator to translate the rest. It only makes sense for the rest to be translated by Witch Hunt.

On the other hand, it was quite the surprise to see only 10% progress after months of no news at all. It's not like I'm blaming chrono, but 'free time' is also one of the requirements to be able to be a fan translator. People without free time just don't have the free time to translate anything. You say Witch Hunt will try to have the game translated by the end of the year, but if that's the speed the project will progress at from now on I think 'late 2012/early 2013' would be a better estimate. I'm not blaming you people for this; if chrono just doesn't have the free time, he just doesn't have the free time, and no amount of trying your best is going to solve that problem.

But in the end, remember that it's Witch Hunt's project, and only you people have the right to decide how the project continues. People can complain all they want, but it's something you do for them for free. If they don't like it, they should get someone else to translate it for themselves. From what I can see from your posts, even though you're asking for feedback on it, you seem very much against the idea. If that is the case, then just don't do it. Don't force yourself to do something you don't want to do just because the fans demand it.
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Old 2011-10-25, 22:29   Link #6994
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On a completely unrelated note, since Klash is paying attention to the thread: has 07th Expansion given Witch Hunt a verdict on whether

Spoiler for EP8 ending:
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Old 2011-10-25, 22:35   Link #6995
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
But in the end, remember that it's Witch Hunt's project, and only you people have the right to decide how the project continues. People can complain all they want, but it's something you do for them for free. If they don't like it, they should get someone else to translate it for themselves. From what I can see from your posts, even though you're asking for feedback on it, you seem very much against the idea. If that is the case, then just don't do it. Don't force yourself to do something you don't want to do just because the fans demand it.
Well said. I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment.
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Old 2011-10-26, 13:30   Link #6996
MainCharacter
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I understood him to mean that there was no legal issue even before WH got permission. And that would be incorrect - there are definitely legal issues with distributing a translation without permission.
I didn't mean that there is nothing legally questionable about it, no. I was just saying that it's no different from what was originally done with the PC version. It's "no more illegal", and such. My main point was just that there is a difference between a PSP patch and a PS3 to PC patch. The former is adding a translation to a game whereas the latter is distributing sprites and voices out of a game an onto another. The first one is just putting something in whereas the second is taking something out and adding it to something else. The legal problems that Witch Hunt took issue with for the PS3 to PC patch was the distributing of files from the PS3 version, which wouldn't be happening with a PSP patch. Not that I expect anyone to make a PSP patch or anything. I was just pointing out that it's not the same as a PS3 to PC patch, which I felt someone was saying it was.

And, it doesn't matter much, but it's "she".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There are plenty competent translators regarding such projects, and I feel no problem in saying it, but the question is: who would take the reins?
Honestly, I've read 1-7 translated and put together by Witch Hunt. Even if someone else did a translation of Episode 8, I would wait for a Witch Hunt release for awhile longer before trying out. I don't want someone else to "take over". I'm perfectly fine with waiting for the full release of EP8 by Witch Hunt. Even if I did break down and read a translation by someone else, I would reread the whole thing if Witch Hunt released theirs later. I think people are just being impatient and entitled, though.

Now, of course, I wish we could have had the patch sooner and it sucks that it is taking this long, but these things happen. At the end of the day, I'm glad there are more important things in the translator's life than working on a no-profit fan-translation project. I'd rather him have a full-time job then be unemployed. Life happens, anybody who is complaining he hasn't dedicated more free time to this project is being childish.

Quote:
It hasn't been a full year yet, and I think you should check other projects to see what kind of "long wait" you can have, and that doesn't mean they are slow.
Indeed. Type-Moon fans have been waiting for the translation for Fate/hollow ataraxia for about years now. I know that I found the translation project for it about 4 or so years ago, and watched it slowly move along from one person to a few people to a forum project to a spot on TL Wiki, with months of no updates.

Waiting a potential year for the EP8 patch isn't that bad in comparison, especially since we did get a 50% patch, as well as have had constant updates and communication from members of the team. We're lucky, in my opinion.
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Old 2011-10-26, 16:04   Link #6997
Kishin
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lol MainCharacter, the Ataraxia translation is the main thing I compare witch-hunt to to remind me that theyr an awesome group even if it is taking longer. No matter what I at least know that ep8 is going to come out before FHA is
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Old 2011-10-26, 17:19   Link #6998
Yirba
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Actually, the majority of translation projects never actually release, so it's great to see that Witch Hunt have come so far.
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Old 2011-10-27, 17:02   Link #6999
Ukyo9
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I was wondering about when the whining would start.

The facts are quite simple. You are getting impatient and what was before a really nice gift now is something you feel like you "deserve". I am personally disgusted by reading some of those comments (calling WH arrogants was the best). Yes, disgusted.

WH has provided for years a more than excellent free service to us. I am able to read Umineko thanks to them (and, for that, I will be forever in debt). The entire project shows only dedication and love for this work, something which is definitely rare.

They also gave us a more than complete explanation of the situation too. And they are also continuing working on it. So where is the problem?

I understand that many people are just worried that the project will die. But, again, WH explained why things are going this way so we don't have to worry. We just need to learn to have a little patience.


tl;dr: show more respect for WH. They deserve it.
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Old 2011-10-27, 17:11   Link #7000
AuraTwilight
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I concur entirely with Ukyo9. Quit complaining unless you're contributing something to the fanbase. It's not like you're paying for the damn patch.
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