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Old 2008-12-29, 02:27   Link #341
stormy001_M1A2
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Why the author has to take blame for her own story? I don't get it.

She did write this story as her vision, her dreams, her beliefs and her imagination. Why should she take blame for it?
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Old 2008-12-29, 02:35   Link #342
Westlo
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Nemo, why is it the authors fault she didn't explain the twist in the chapter, when the majority of the initial outrage was based off a single picture. 2ch started to mock the shit out of the people who were seriously outraged once the full story was known. The initial kneejerk reaction was to a single picture period.
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Old 2008-12-29, 08:02   Link #343
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Author is at fault for, putting a twist without being careful with a situation, specially considering the waiting period in between. I don't think that it was just a random fact that outraged the otakus, but rather the way it was done. If you notice trhough initial wave started with a single image it still continued when poeple read it, if it were just a single picture it would have stopped but it didn't. Of course the level decreased but wasn't gone.

Jin really looked like getting shafted there, if author would have played it more carefully even with the same twist we would not have gotten this overreaction. It could have been more under control, thats why I held author being responsible for this whole mess as well.

You can place your vision, your dreams, your beliefs and your imagination, but when you are doing it in public, specially public that can be rather unstable, you have to take your own share of responsibility.

Like people always go after every slip of the public person even if they are just expressing their opinion but because it has public influence it can often made into a big noise. Mangaka isn't exactly a public person, but in Japan it is pretty close. Your share of responsibility increase with the public effect you or your works may have. Personally I think you are overvictimising the author.
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Old 2008-12-29, 14:39   Link #344
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I think you're also confronting how the word "fault" gets perceived by many people. By saying the author is "at fault", it *looks* like you're echoing the attitude of people who say "girl who deserved to get raped because she had a short skirt on". It is going to be perceived poorly. Technically, the author's performance art caused a reaction from a small percentage of her fans before the art was completed. Is that her "fault"?

What people (in the japanese *chans and here) were hurling tomatoes at is the *small* group of lunatics who jumped the gun without waiting to see how it would play out. Rather like the insane people who picket films they haven't seen...
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Old 2008-12-29, 16:16   Link #345
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These insane people are also as a rule the most profitable ones as well, you should not try to attract them if you do not want them, it is pretty easy just avoid the usual moe stuff that attracts such crazy bunch. If you are attracting them (which Kannagi manga does) you have to be ready to deal with it.

Meaning you have to be more careful with your twists so that these jumping around would not happen.

Author overlooked that, took a risk and didn't soften up the affect the twist will have and for that had to pay. Experienced authors, specially the ones attracting Otaku's try to avoid that. For me the author also has to take the responsibility for this situation. Not saying that otaku's are not at fault, but author played her part in here as well.

There is a difference between the girl who had a short skirt on and the mangaka who does deal with a lot of publicity and can influence public pretty much, thus has to have much more responsibility for her actions. There is a difference of status here as naturally the responsibility increases. Please do not compare these things as simply the status is too different.
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Old 2008-12-29, 17:28   Link #346
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Aye, I see where you're coming from -- I'm just trying to explain that you may not be catching a cultural nuance in how you're using the word and how people are receiving its use. Even if the person in question is a celebrity, actor, or whatever --- blaming them for the behavior of their fans isn't really a "winning" argument (at least in the US or Canada). It sounds a lot like blameshifting.
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:14   Link #347
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It is not blame shifting as such - I am not saying that otakus are innocent little kittens out there forced into such reaction by twisted mangaka. What I am saying that though otakus are the ones to blame for their stupid reaction, mangaka has to take her own share of the fault on herself, as simply she did not pay attention on what reaction her twist without any softening up could create, specially when she had a particular audience following (and she could not be unaware about the audience since the theme in Kannagi and some jokes are obviously otaku orientated).

I view it rather more like author taking a risk and getting her fingers burned rather than trying to victomize her to no end. If she would have been more careful the whole situation could have been avoided. And while you cannot predict exact reactions nor can be deemed to to be totally responsible for others reaction, but because of your status which, specially in Japan, is close to public person you have to have your responsibility increased upon what you do, specially if you are dealing with unstable otaku bunch.

I view that she was too careless given the situation.

And it is funny since I have read a lot of this blasphemy happening in america. Like people blaming comics or music for the cruel actions of their children and so on. It is rather popular way to take off your own share of guilt after all. Which I do not condemn, but I am also saying that the status of higher publicity also creates a higher responsibility than normal which you cannot ignore, specially when you are attracting unstable bunch of people around you. It doesn't mean that the ones doing those actions are innocent, they are but the author has a share in all this as well, specially because she is attracting otakus who cannot be held to be normal people or normal anime fans if you want.
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Old 2008-12-30, 15:35   Link #348
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the most obvious conclusion here is just this, fuck otakus, by which i mean japan
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Old 2008-12-30, 17:13   Link #349
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True, I never argued about this, I just argued when a lot of you started victimising the author too much.
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Old 2009-01-01, 16:01   Link #350
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Coming back here, quickly: I, at least, wasn't victimizing anyone. I just don't see how it's the author's own responsibility how the fans behave themselves. That's just a very skewed way of phrasing something that should be "blamed" solely on the delusional minds of such fuck-ups.
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Old 2009-01-01, 20:53   Link #351
Darknemo2000
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And I am saying that this whole situation could have been avoided if author have been more cautios which she should have been, as she was aware of her audience (or else would not be playing otaku-ish jokes etc.) and that her audience is not the most emotionally stable bunch that there is. Thus I am saying that the author has to take her own share of responsibility.

I think the difference between your view and mine lies in how we imagine otakus to be - I percieve them to be emotionally unstable thus can easily be affected by most minor things, meaning that their social and emotional functions in society does have disturbance and as such you cannot deem them to be completely responsible for theor action and author, who tries to attract this audience (because of bigger earn than from normal fans) has to take her own part of responsibility.

While you imagine Otakus to be adults who can judge and perceive the world as any other person and do not have any disturbances in their psychology thus you can say that they are fully responsible for this (otherwise you could not be asking a full responsibility from someone who have psychologica/sociological problems to be completely responsible for their actions).
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Old 2009-01-01, 22:47   Link #352
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Talking

Dude, honestly, real life otakus, just as people who neg-rep posts without rep points or even bothering to give a single freakin' reason for doing so, shouldn't be taken seriously, but ridiculed every which way. Seriously...
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Old 2009-01-02, 01:30   Link #353
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Well, its not about being taken seriously or not but more are their completely responsible for their actions or not, I find them not to be completely responsible for their actions (they are responsible to an extend but not completely, and that small part of not being completely responsible, is the part that author who attracts them, has to take) as they have both psychological and social problems.
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Old 2009-01-02, 01:44   Link #354
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The author is not responsible for the actions of other people. Its like saying an author who writes mystery horror should be responsible if one of his reader commits a crime based on his story.
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Old 2009-01-02, 05:36   Link #355
BetoJR
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That's my point. People who act out on their feelings toward fictional situations and characters should be completely responsible for their own actions, even if they are delusional. No free lunch - and no shifting blame, either.
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Old 2009-01-02, 06:11   Link #356
Darknemo2000
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If the person is not what we could call healthy then the situation changes. The responsibility does shift a little. The author is targeting that specific audience, thus has to be more cautious than in normal situation with people who are very easy to influence.

If the author would be unaware of the audience then yes, what can she do if otaku suddenly decides to read and decides that he likes it, but because it is targeting this group of people author makes effort to make it attractive to them, meaning that she is aware of what unstable bunch can be between her fans. This also asks to act more cautiously than if the fans would be mostly young adults and not otakus. Yet the author was not acting cautious while performing a twist, and this is what we got in the end.

Its like my friend is in an unstable suicidal mood. I talk harshly to him unaware of his situation and he kills himself. I am not that much to take a blame right, as I wasn't even aware of him being in that mood. But if I know that he is in suicidal mood and still press him and be very harsh with him, knowing full well that if I do that some negative reaction is bound to happen, my responsibility of the situation increases.

Otaku's still take a good share of blame of their actions as they are not imbeciles but author has to take her own share of guilt in this given situation, as when she targeted a specific unstable audience and yet was not acting accordingly. A reaction was bound to happen. You can play twist without it looking so bad and without it having such big effect. Given that a lot of this reaction happened from one page, but it also was there even after a full chapter meaning that the whole chapter was way too easy to fall into misinterpretation.

If you are not ready to deal with a particular group, then you should not make this group as one of the targets. If you think you can, well do so, but be more cautious as you are dealing with a specific unstable bunch.
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Old 2009-01-02, 06:48   Link #357
stormy001_M1A2
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You know when the fans bought her manga, by giving the money to the creator, the mangaka's responsibility ends. It is hard to swallow the argument of that Kannagi manga creator should be hauled to the task just because a group of fans are not happy with story development. They already paid her for her work and the contract ends.
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Old 2009-01-02, 08:15   Link #358
BetoJR
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^^^
What he said.

Really, when you talk about responsibility shifting, laying it's weight on the media (whatever form of it one chooses, be it movies, books, anime, mangas, comics, etc.) is a very escapist solution. If a person can't be responsible for his/her own actions, then his/her family should. If they don't have a family (or close friends), then it would be the government's responsibility (if you're so inclined). And so on and so on. Relying on the media for education or self-justification just feels very wrong, to me.

Blaming things like this on creators who pour their blood and sweat to produce something even a single person could enjoy and feel better for it, is just not something I'm comfortable with.
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Old 2009-01-02, 09:02   Link #359
Darknemo2000
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Do you even read what I am writing? Where did I say that author should be blamed for everything?

Where did I write that media is responsible for everything?

Mind to point that? Since I am pretty sure I did not.

What I am saying that author does share some of the responsibility to that because she wasn't paying attention to her audience that she herself build-up and because part of this audience is not very stable they are easily influenced, manipulated and prone to exaggerating things.

It would be silly to say that the author has to take full blame for that. Its like saying that Hitler is responsible for all the crimes that Hitlerjugend did. It is not true. People as long as are not complete imbeciles can make choices and as long as they can choose they are responsible for their choices and actions regarding it. Otakus are just as much responsible, but in this case the author has her own share of responsibility since she wasnt paying attention while making a twist upon what audience she is dealing with. So in this situation she does carry her own load of blame even if it is minor compared to Otaku's.
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Old 2009-01-02, 09:27   Link #360
BetoJR
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Dude, chill.
Please. I don't need any more neg-reps, here.

We obviously disagree and I wasn't even replying point-by-point to you. So, you believe authors should share the responsibility for their fans actions or behavior. I sure as hell don't. Let's leave it at that, shall we? Laters...
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