AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Code Geass

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-10-05, 09:43   Link #1841
Knight Of Zero
Zero Requiem
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
The key here is "and those before him". Rolo's contribution to the plot was nothing more than one more example of people striving for tomorrow--the first of which, by the way, came all the way back in Stage 14. Obviously Lelouch needed all of these past experiences to actually realize what he needed to do, but first he needed to get rid of his past motivation, which happened when he saw that his mother had been alive and abandoned him. As such, arguments along the lines of 'Rolo's death in Turn 19 was revelationary to Lelouch and gave him a whole new meaning' are false--it only did that in 21, and even then only as one of dozens of other meaningful instances.
I believe rolo's death had a huge inpact on him. Would Lelouch kill rolo in turn 14 had cornilea(this might be a mispell) not apeear?
Knight Of Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 09:50   Link #1842
Droplet
ヘ( ̄▽ ̄ヘ)(ノ ̄▽ ̄)ノ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydrallen View Post
It seemed that you are the one who lack reading comprehension in that you took Lelouch's words literally.

Long before his confrontation with Charles, Lelouch had already acknowledged the fact that his fights are no longer revolved around Nunnally and Marianne. He came to that first hint of realization after witnessing that his friends still cared for him and were all optimistic (during the fireworks) despite the instability and the prospect of war. That was the first hint that Lelouch realized humanity will always be working hard towards a happier tomorrow despite all the hardships.

And the original argument was in regards to Rolo's contribution to the plot. Without his sacrifice and those before him, I doubt Lelouch would have anything to reflect upon in the World of C. So yes, the factors that shaped Lelouch's newfound resolution to build a better tomorrow stemmed from his past experiences of witnessing how hard people had strived for happier lives- not because he suddenly lost his targets for vengence. Lelouch's words as he was banishing Charles were, "Even so, I would not acknowledge the stagnant world that you intend to create."
Just curious, what are we arguing about?

Lelouch wanted two things from the beginning, right? you probably know this as well: A gentle world for Nunnally, and the identity of her mother's assassin.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.
__________________
Droplet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 10:26   Link #1843
Dream_Traveller
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero View Post
I believe rolo's death had a huge inpact on him. Would Lelouch kill rolo in turn 14 had cornilea(this might be a mispell) not apeear?
Er...that incident was some time before Rolo's death, and yes- if Cornelia hadn't shown up, Lelouch would have happily blown Rolo to smithereens.
Dream_Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 10:34   Link #1844
youngde
Unashamed Kalulu fan
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NJ
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero View Post
I believe rolo's death had a huge inpact on him. Would Lelouch kill rolo in turn 14 had cornilea(this might be a mispell) not apeear?
I think it's a given that he would have blown Rolo to kingdom come at that point w/o a second thought. The irony is that then Lelouch would have been killed in eps 19 (definately and for real, in this case ), Kallen would have gone through life feeling even more crappy than she already does (assuming, she or anyone would be alive after Ragnarok), and we wouldn't have watched the last 6 episodes of Code Geass thinking that they were rushing things a bit at the end.

(Seriously, still when I watch the last few episodes, I'm thinking, 'Was there some assigned reading I was supposed to do before watching the end of the series?' )
__________________
youngde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 11:43   Link #1845
Vakir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydrallen View Post
Are you saying that Lelouch suddenly realized that humanity wanted a better future after killing his dad and mom? Killing his parents hardly, if any, contributes to his understanding of what humanity wants. In fact, it is precisely the sacrifices of Rolo and those before Rolo that caused Lelouch to stop Charles' Ragnarok in the first place. Without the selfless sacrifices of Rolo and the others, Lelouch may still be bitter about the rotten world and may actually agree with Charles' plans, which he didn't, due to his experiences of witnessing how people had strived for happiness in the past (the most significant being Rolo who would sacrifice himself for that final 3 seconds of being finally accepted as a real brother).
It's your personal judgment that it's the "most significant." In truth, when you remove the bias, Rolo's role in changing Lelouch's view was shared by several other characters. Whether they're more or less significant is open to interpretation, and you already know mine, so no need for me to push it. For that reason alone, Rolo doesn't have a single unique trait about him in the story that other characters already satisfied. So no, he isn't indispensable, and no, there's no reason he couldn't be removed from the plot without many loose ends remaining that need to be wrapped up. Lelouch would've came to the same conclusion in the World of C regardless.

Quote:

So no, Lelouch didn't comprehend what humanity wants in the World of C. He understood it from the sacrifices of others prior to entering the World of C, with the sacrifice of Rolo as one of the most significant as it served as an epitome showing how far a human is willing to go in search of happiness- the furthest being death itself, as in Rolo's case.
Plenty of people walked on the edge of death to get happiness. Rolo just happened to fall off the line. Being the most unlucky with his condition doesn't make him the most significant. It still illustrates the same point that PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO PUT THEMSELVES ON THE LINE FOR TOMORROW showing that it is what humanity CARES about.

Quote:
Why, then, are you so reluctant to acknowledge Rolo's contribution to the plot and would rather degrade his existance to nothing more than a tool to appease a particular demographics? Oh right, it's because you would rather believe that Lelouch changed his perception about humanity through the murder of his parents.
No, because that IS how he was advertised and up until 19, how he was mostly (keyword: mostly) used. You're still playing the bleeding heart defender card because the one who looks the most sensitive to (insert oppressed minority here) is the one who looks right because they get brownie points for being "brave." But I'm not buying into that crap.

"See, he was allegedly inserted to appeal to this demographic in the first place and Taniguchi didn't even originally like the character for several drafts of the same story. It just feels shallow and like for the most part he was placed in for that purpose."
"I will NOT stand by and let you insult homosexuals!"
"...what."

This has nothing to do with him being involved in yaoi stuff, it has plenty to do with that being seemingly his only purpose before he needed to progress the plot. If Taniguchi didn't even think him to be that necessary for most of the product and only gave him a purpose later in the last 4 episodes, why the hell should we suddenly accept it because of a good death scene with some beautiful Hitomi music? That's a good death scene, not a good character.
Vakir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 13:50   Link #1846
Rydrallen
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
It's your personal judgment that it's the "most significant." In truth, when you remove the bias, Rolo's role in changing Lelouch's view was shared by several other characters. Whether they're more or less significant is open to interpretation, and you already know mine, so no need for me to push it. For that reason alone, Rolo doesn't have a single unique trait about him in the story that other characters already satisfied. So no, he isn't indispensable, and no, there's no reason he couldn't be removed from the plot without many loose ends remaining that need to be wrapped up. Lelouch would've came to the same conclusion in the World of C regardless.
A while ago you were actually arguing that Lelouch realized humanity wants a better tomorrow through the killing of his parents in the world of C, so now you are saying that his change of perception was due to all the sacrifices that people had made for him. That was my argument sir.

As for the significance of Rolo's contributions, who else sacrificed himself or herself to defend Lelouch at his most vulnerable moment? Kallen? (nearly, but she did not trust Lelouch enough to understand that he lied to protect her) Suzaku? Euphemia? Nunnally? How about none of the above? Rolo's act of sacrifice is significant because it was a sacrifice signifying his wishes to be personally accepted as a real brother, and he went the furthest among all the characters in CG in search of happiness- he gave up his whole life for 3 seconds of bliss. There are not many characters in CG who would go that far.

The closest character who would go that far would be Shirley. However, the difference between Rolo and Shirley is that Rolo attempted to rescue Lelouch knowing that he would die in the process; while Shirley attempted to aid Lelouch not knowing that she would die. That itself made Rolo's sacrifice more noble, in that he accepted the price of having to give up his life for happiness.

So no, there are not 'plenty' of characters in CG whose contributions are impactful enough to sway Lelouch from vengence to buiding a better tomorrow. To be impactful a contribution has to fulfil two criteria: it has to be personally meaningful to Lelouch, and it has to illustrate that a human would go really really far for happiness. Rolo's sacrifice did fulfil these criteria, so did Shirley's. But to say that these type of sacrifices are 'common' and 'dispensable' would be a disgrace to the word 'sacrifice'.

And wow, Sol actually said there were dozens of them. Lists them. All 12 of them.

Quote:
No, because that IS how he was advertised and up until 19, how he was mostly (keyword: mostly) used. You're still playing the bleeding heart defender card because the one who looks the most sensitive to (insert oppressed minority here) is the one who looks right because they get brownie points...

This has nothing to do with him being involved in yaoi stuff, it has plenty to do with that being seemingly his only purpose before he needed to progress the plot. If Taniguchi didn't even think him to be that necessary for most of the product and only gave him a purpose later in the last 4 episodes, why the hell should we suddenly accept it because of a good death scene with some beautiful Hitomi music? That's a good death scene, not a good character.
Evidence suggested that you see Rolo as that, there's no conspiracy involved here. Anyhow, we accepted Rolo because his sacrifice is significant to Lelouch's change of perception, reasons have been presented multiple times, it's just that there are those who are simply too engrossed in their own hatred for a character to acknowledge his or her contributions.

Quote:
So no, he isn't indispensable, and no, there's no reason he couldn't be removed from the plot without many loose ends remaining that need to be wrapped up. Lelouch would've came to the same conclusion in the World of C regardless.

Ah, and I think I saw your stagnant reasoning of 'because a fictional character is dispensable, his/her contributions do not add to the plot' nonsense again. Well guess what, batman's contributions to the plot in Dark Knight is meaningless too since he can be replaced by Superman!

Last edited by Rydrallen; 2008-10-05 at 14:02.
Rydrallen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 14:49   Link #1847
Vakir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydrallen View Post
A while ago you were actually arguing that Lelouch realized humanity wants a better tomorrow through the killing of his parents in the world of C, so now you are saying that his change of perception was due to all the sacrifices that people had made for him. That was my argument sir.
The hell? No I didn't. I specifically pointed out his speech to Schneizel in episode 24. Go take a look. Not because he killed his parents, just after. Stop distorting the point to make yours look better. And no, it isn't because of the people who made sacrifices for him, it was for the people who had put themselves out there to fight for a future at all.

Quote:
As for the significance of Rolo's contributions, who else sacrificed himself or herself to defend Lelouch at his most vulnerable moment? Kallen? (nearly, but she did not trust Lelouch enough to understand that he lied to protect her) Suzaku? Euphemia? Nunnally? How about none of the above? Rolo's act of sacrifice is significant because it was a sacrifice signifying his wishes to be personally accepted as a real brother, and he went the furthest among all the characters in CG in search of happiness- he gave up his whole life for 3 seconds of bliss. There are not many characters in CG who would go that far.

The closest character who would go that far would be Shirley. However, the difference between Rolo and Shirley is that Rolo attempted to rescue Lelouch knowing that he would die in the process; while Shirley attempted to aid Lelouch not knowing that she would die. [/B] That itself made Rolo's sacrifice more noble, in that he accepted the price of having to give up his life for happiness.
It doesn't need to be about who defends Lelouch. It has to be about people defending their happiness. Hell, even MAO gets an appearance when Lelouch reminisces on people who fought for their future, and he did anything but fight for Lelouch. Whether anyone sacrificed themselves for Lelouch is irrelevant: that's not why he realizes people want a future. He realizes they do because they put their own lives on the line. Rolo lost his, but that doesn't mean he's somehow more important. For example, people mourn the loss of a veteran, but it doesn't mean the other veterans who served and came out with an amputated leg are bunk for their sacrifice. Lelouch didn't believe what he did because people sacrificed for HIM alone, just that they fought and put their lives on the line. That would be stupidly selfish if it only consisted of those who fought for him in his line of logic.

Comparing characters who died vs. who knew they were going to die is just plain idiotic. At a moments notice half the characters in the show could've died but they all served their cause for their own purposes. Lelouch isn't blind to that: that's why he acknowledges everyone when he thinks back on it. Not just people who served him.

Quote:
So no, there are not 'plenty' of characters in CG whose contributions are impactful enough to sway Lelouch from vengence to buiding a better tomorrow. To be impactful a contribution has to fulfil two criteria: it has to be personally meaningful to Lelouch,
Bolded: Nope. Otherwise he wouldn't include people he FREAKING HATED in his epic taped speech to Schneizel when reminiscing about people who fought for happiness.

Quote:
and it has to illustrate that a human would go really really far for happiness. Rolo's sacrifice did fulfil these criteria, so did Shirley's. [B]But to say that these type of sacrifices are 'common' and 'dispensable' would be a disgrace to the word 'sacrifice'.
There ya go. That's the sole bolded criteria. Which can apply to basically every character in the damn show. Jesus, freakin' Nina applies. Rolo isn't exclusive in his sacrifice and intentionally dying isn't necessarily the only notable sacrifice someone can give, especially given the amount of characters in the show that could've died but managed to pull through.

Listen to yourself: Rolo was meaningful because he died? So if I had a red-shirt nameless goon take a bullet for Lelouch, would that net him his own thread and 5 minute death scene too?

Quote:
Evidence suggested that you see Rolo as that, there's no conspiracy involved here. Anyhow, we accepted Rolo because his sacrifice is significant to Lelouch's change of perception, reasons have been presented multiple times, it's just that there are those who are simply too engrossed in their own hatred for a character to acknowledge his or her contributions.
Hi. I don't hate Rolo. Rolo was poorly done. Rolo's implementation from the start was inherently flawed because he was advertised to appeal to a certain group, was considered unnecessary on multiple accounts by the director, and was hoisted into a project that was rewritten and revised several times. That's not Rolo's fault, but the sheer level of how the character is overrated stands.

Quote:
Oh, and I think I saw your stagnant reasoning of 'because a fictional character is dispensable, his/her contributions do not add to the plot' nonsense again. Well guess what, batman's contributions to the plot in Dark Knight is meaningless too since he can be replaced by Superman!
That's the stupidest strawman argument I think anyone has ever supplied. How is swapping one very different main character with another anywhere near similar to removing a character who had maybe two or three key scenes?

You just basically said Rolo is the main character going by that line of logic.
Vakir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 23:38   Link #1848
Worriors1
Spontaneous Retirement.
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
Hi. I don't hate Rolo. Rolo was poorly done. Rolo's implementation from the start was inherently flawed because he was advertised to appeal to a certain group, was considered unnecessary on multiple accounts by the director, and was hoisted into a project that was rewritten and revised several times. That's not Rolo's fault, but the sheer level of how the character is overrated stands.
Well, glad I heard that one. For awhile I just figured you were on somekind of insane rampage about disliking him... I should really pay more attention.

I agree with what you said there, but I don't know much about the rest.. I read the top, skimmed the middle, and read the bottom.

Anyways, can we call it a cease-fire for the time being? I really don't like coming on here and checking the forums and looking at 'recently posted' and seeing Rolo's thread and expecting a huge fight to be on there. It was entertaining for a while, but come on.. Enough is enough. ('Probably said that one before too..)

It's really not hard to stop a huge debate, so, both of you need to just give a post full of your thoughts and reasons and explanations, then nicely critque both of them without starting something again. If you do, just take it to PM.

Or, just come up with a good peace treaty because this thread needs to die already. Rolo isn't a 'main' character (Whatever that means anymore. Appearently people who didn't even do much are 'main characters' now..)And he's been dead for a while. Drop it.

Now, unless someone finds something geniunely interesting/new about him, we really shouldn't be talking on here, should we?

I mean, yeah, it's your right to keep talking and you can still do that, but seriously, isn't it kind of stressful knowing when you get home you'll have to reply to some huge argument?

Oh well. If you enjoy it, by all means continue.

/Offtopic.
__________________
Worriors1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-05, 23:57   Link #1849
Droplet
ヘ( ̄▽ ̄ヘ)(ノ ̄▽ ̄)ノ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worriors1 View Post
Well, glad I heard that one. For awhile I just figured you were on somekind of insane rampage about disliking him... I should really pay more attention.

I agree with what you said there, but I don't know much about the rest.. I read the top, skimmed the middle, and read the bottom.

Anyways, can we call it a cease-fire for the time being? I really don't like coming on here and checking the forums and looking at 'recently posted' and seeing Rolo's thread and expecting a huge fight to be on there. It was entertaining for a while, but come on.. Enough is enough. ('Probably said that one before too..)

It's really not hard to stop a huge debate, so, both of you need to just give a post full of your thoughts and reasons and explanations, then nicely critque both of them without starting something again. If you do, just take it to PM.

Or, just come up with a good peace treaty because this thread needs to die already. Rolo isn't a 'main' character (Whatever that means anymore. Appearently people who didn't even do much are 'main characters' now..)And he's been dead for a while. Drop it.

Now, unless someone finds something geniunely interesting/new about him, we really shouldn't be talking on here, should we?

I mean, yeah, it's your right to keep talking and you can still do that, but seriously, isn't it kind of stressful knowing when you get home you'll have to reply to some huge argument?

Oh well. If you enjoy it, by all means continue.

/Offtopic.

Quote wars might be a rough method to sift the best points of an argument. But occasionally, you can find a gold nugget of insight that leads both sides closer to the truth .

Occasionally...
__________________
Droplet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 00:46   Link #1850
Rydrallen
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
It doesn't need to be about who defends Lelouch. It has to be about people defending their happiness. Hell, even MAO gets an appearance when Lelouch reminisces on people who fought for their future, and he did anything but fight for Lelouch. Whether anyone sacrificed themselves for Lelouch is irrelevant: that's not why he realizes people want a future. He realizes they do because they put their own lives on the line. Rolo lost his, but that doesn't mean he's somehow more important. For example, people mourn the loss of a veteran, but it doesn't mean the other veterans who served and came out with an amputated leg are bunk for their sacrifice. Lelouch didn't believe what he did because people sacrificed for HIM alone, just that they fought and put their lives on the line. That would be stupidly selfish if it only consisted of those who fought for him in his line of logic.
You lost it. Mao actually changed Lelouch's perception about humanity. How interesting.

There are many who put their lives on the line. All the black knights in season 1 did that in R1. Funny how all their sacrifices on the battle field did not sway Lelouch one bit? His fights remained revolving around Nunnally until R2, when he realized the future that humanity wanted. Why? Because the demise of soldier P1, P9, or P3 meant little for Lelouch as they were individuals who sacrificed themselves for their own cause (liberating Japan), and these were never personally meaningful to Lelouch to warrant any reflection on his part.
Your attempt to generalize every sacrifices in the whole world to trivialize the impact of Rolo's personal sacrifice is futile at best.

Quote:
At a moments notice half the characters in the show could've died but they all served their cause for their own purposes. Lelouch isn't blind to that: that's why he acknowledges everyone when he thinks back on it. Not just people who served him.
He acknowledged everyone after realizing humanity wanted a better future, and he realized that through witnessing the sacrifices of those close to him for his sake. He did not miraculously realize the good in humanity just because soldier A died fighting for him, or because soldier B risked himself in the frontline- these were never personally impactful enough to open his eyes.

Quote:
Bolded: Nope. Otherwise he wouldn't include people he FREAKING HATED in his epic taped speech to Schneizel when reminiscing about people who fought for happiness.
He acknowledged Mao's and Charles' efforts because they are evidences of how people strived for happiness, not because he liked or hated them. However, it was after the sacrifice of Rolo that Lelouch began to seriously reflect upon the actions of everyone in the world, without that vital contribution which personally affected Lelouch's judgement, Lelouch would not mature to a point where he could acknowledge the good in the actions of those he hated.

Before the demise of Rolo, Lelouch was too engrossed in his own hatred for Rolo that he never see the driving force behind all of Rolo's actions- that is, to seek happiness through his acceptance as a family member; Rolo's demise as a result of him protecting Lelouch in his weakest moment dissipated those hatred and allowed Lelouch to finally see 'how far a human can go in search of happiness'. There may be others who sacrificed their lives for a better tomorrow prior to Rolo, but those sacrifices were never personally impactful enough to change Lelouch's personal judgement on humanity.
Rydrallen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 01:08   Link #1851
Vakir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Let me start off by saying, Worrior, that I agree with you completely: it's why I stopped arguing with Krimzon. Who I rather like. But Ry is just saying flat out WRONG and patronizing things at this point and it's irritating to the extent that I'm almost convinced they're trolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydrallen View Post
You lost it. Mao actually changed Lelouch's perception about humanity. How interesting.
He was on the list. Why are you so damn embittered over it?

Quote:
There are many who put their lives on the line. All the black knights in season 1 did that in R1. Funny how all their sacrifices on the battle field did not sway Lelouch one bit?
Because it was still season 1. This realization came after episode 21 of season 2. I feel like I'm repeating myself more than I really should at this point, dude.

Quote:
His fights remained revolving around Nunnally until R2, when he realized the future that humanity wanted. Why? [B]Because the demise of soldier P1, P9, or P3 meant little for Lelouch as they were individuals who sacrificed themselves for their own cause (liberating Japan), and these were never personally meaningful to Lelouch to warrant any reflection on his part.
Mmmm, no. If this were the truth, he wouldn't go off trying to seek revenge on his father...AGAIN...in episode 20. He hadn't come to this realization until after he realized daddy intended to turn everyone into Tang. THEN he realizes the collective humanity seeks a future and doesn't want that kind of world, especially since Nunnally wouldn't want it.

Quote:
Your attempt to generalize every sacrifices in the whole world to trivialize the impact of Rolo's personal sacrifice is futile at best.
It's a generalization, but it's also true. The show simply couldn't pack in every individual character that fought for something, so they settled on the main and supporting cast. Lelouch's new view was towards humanity, not towards his fake brother with time-hax. Rolo is not exclusive.

Quote:
He acknowledged everyone after realizing humanity wanted a better future, and he realized that through witnessing the sacrifices of those close to him for his sake. He did not miraculously realize the good in humanity just because soldier A died fighting for him, or because soldier B risked himself in the frontline- these were never personally impactful enough to open his eyes.
I'm pretty sure the eyeopener was the impending threat of time itself stopping in the first place. If Rolo and other sacrifices were so damn important to Lelouch and were the sole cause of his turn, why the hell is Suzaku just as devoted to the same end, if not even moreso, when half the people Lelouch was close to didn't even share a remotely similar relationship with him? Better yet, why didn't Lelouch try and save the world via different means in ep 20? Locking yourself with your father in an alternate location FOREVER isn't really conducive to changing the world for the better, now wouldn't you agree?

This was a decision they came to together towards humanity as a whole, not just people they were on a first name basis with. For example, Lelouch's primary concern with Damocles is that it will turn humanity into a symbol, not that it will police his friends in particular. They're part of the major whole that he cares about. Lelouch stops caring about individual people so much as he does the aggregate.

Quote:
He acknowledged Mao's and Charles' efforts because they are evidences of how people strived for happiness, not because he liked or hated them.
I agree completely. Liking and hating has nothing to do with the fact that they went for happiness like the rest of humanity can be shown to.

Quote:
However, it was after the sacrifice of Rolo that Lelouch began to seriously reflect upon the actions of everyone in the world, without that vital contribution which personally affected Lelouch's judgement, Lelouch would not mature to a point where he could acknowledge the good in the actions of those he hated.
I'm pretty sure it was after his dad shot at him like a rocket, not after Rolo died. After Rolo died he was still a little ball of vengeance. Then, the realization hits you: "oh SNAP, the world was -this- close to ending. And you know what? My sister would've just wanted a world that had a future where people were kinder. Ok, I get it now!"

Quote:
Before the demise of Rolo, Lelouch was too engrossed in his own hatred for Rolo that he never see the driving force behind all of Rolo's actions- that is, to seek happiness through his acceptance as a family member; Rolo's demise as a result of him protecting Lelouch in his weakest moment dissipated those hatred and allowed Lelouch to finally see 'how far a human can go in search of happiness'. There may be others who sacrificed their lives for a better tomorrow prior to Rolo, but those sacrifices were never personally impactful enough to change Lelouch's personal judgement on humanity.
But Rolo's sacrifice says just as much about humanity as any other character's price to pay, whether it was death or not. The moment he sets out to do Zero Requiem, he doesn't individually address Rolo at any time internally, so you're making a huge freaking assumption that it's Rolo's sacrifice in particular that drives this. I think that making this about Rolo, whether you like him or not, rather than about the human race in of itself just trivializes the entire point of Zero Requiem. Ignoring that Lelouch would be otherwise dead (insert alternate escape method here), Rolo's lack of existence wouldn't have made it so Zero Requiem wouldn't happen within the confines of the story. You're overestimating his importance.
Vakir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 05:26   Link #1852
Rydrallen
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
Let me start off by saying, Worrior, that I agree with you completely: it's why I stopped arguing with Krimzon. Who I rather like. But Ry is just saying flat out WRONG and patronizing things at this point and it's irritating to the extent that I'm almost convinced they're trolling.
Heh Krimzon stopped replying to you a while ago as he confessed that your arguments were too incoherent to warrant any attention.

Quote:
Mmmm, no. If this were the truth, he wouldn't go off trying to seek revenge on his father...AGAIN...in episode 20. He hadn't come to this realization until after he realized daddy intended to turn everyone into Tang. THEN he realizes the collective humanity seeks a future and doesn't want that kind of world, especially since Nunnally wouldn't want it.
So, basically you are saying that Lelouch realized what the collective humanity wanted simply because the world is about to end? Had he not have the past experiences of witnessing the struggles of humanity towards seeking happiness, he wouldn't even be concerned about the world as a whole. Your argument is flawed beyond repair in that you forcefully tried to negate the importance of those directly involved in Lelouch's personal life (Rolo included) in the shaping of Lelouch's final resolve at the time of Zero Requiem.

Quote:
It's a generalization, but it's also true. The show simply couldn't pack in every individual character that fought for something, so they settled on the main and supporting cast. Lelouch's new view was towards humanity, not towards his fake brother with time-hax. Rolo is not exclusive.
Obviously the show cannot pack in everything, thats why the show chose to highlight Rolo's and Shirley's sacrifices as the catalysts in changing Lelouch's perception about humanity- something you chose to completely dismiss.

It was through the personal sacrifices of Rolo that enabled Lelouch to see the wants of humanity as a whole. He wouldn't have cared about the world if all he saw were people whom he did not even know or cared for sacrificing themselves for their own causes.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure the eyeopener was the impending threat of time itself stopping in the first place.
Hah, if Lelouch didn't even cared of his own life, I doubt he would care if the world was about to end. The sole reason why he stopped Ragnarok was: he understood that humanity wanted a happier future through the personal sacrifices of Rolo, and notably Shirley, both of which served as catalysts that enabled Lelouch to actually cared for the collective wants of humanity.

Quote:
If Rolo and other sacrifices were so damn important to Lelouch and were the sole cause of his turn, why the hell is Suzaku just as devoted to the same end, if not even moreso, when half the people Lelouch was close to didn't even share a remotely similar relationship with him?
The main drive behind Suzaku's devotion to Lelouch's plans of creating a better tomorrow stemmed from Euphemia's personal sacrifice in her attempt to fulfil Suzaku's earlier wishes of changing Britannia from within. It was a completely different event, but nonetheless a personal sacrifice similar to what Rolo had accomplished for Lelouch. (The reason why Suzaku never supported Lelouch in R1 was because he did not agree with the concept of 'the ends justify the means', he discarded that naive thinking in R2.)

Quote:
Better yet, why didn't Lelouch try and save the world via different means in ep 20? Locking yourself with your father in an alternate location FOREVER isn't really conducive to changing the world for the better, now wouldn't you agree?
That's the only method that he could think of at that moment. Sacrificing his freedom to completely lock up a war-mongering tyrant like Charles was itself a way, although not a really good one, to change the world for the better. However, after learning Charles' true intentions, he opposed it on the grounds that Charles' plans were selfish- in that he only cared for himself and Marrianne and did not taken into account the collective wishes of humanity of wanting to maintain their individual indentities and to continually seek happiness in a changing world.

Why do you think Lelouch suddenly cared for the collective wants of humanity that he was indifferent to for so long? Because Rolo's sacrifice provided him with the perfect example of how hard a human would strive to acquire bliss. And the key word is Rolo is someone who can relates to Lelouch personally, and that itself made the impact all the more significant for Lelouch.

There are thousands of sacrifices made by unknown humans every day for their own causes or for their loved ones, however all of these would merely be statistics in the eyes of an observer. Observing these sacrifices from a distance would hardly drive Lelouch towards comprehending the struggles of humanity in search of happiness. On the other hand, getting personally involved in it would, as in the case of Rolo's sacrifice.

Last edited by Rydrallen; 2008-10-06 at 06:00.
Rydrallen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 11:11   Link #1853
Vakir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydrallen View Post
So, basically you are saying that Lelouch realized what the collective humanity wanted simply because the world is about to end? Had he not have the past experiences of witnessing the struggles of humanity towards seeking happiness, he wouldn't even be concerned about the world as a whole. Your argument is flawed beyond repair in that you forcefully tried to negate the importance of those directly involved in Lelouch's personal life (Rolo included) in the shaping of Lelouch's final resolve at the time of Zero Requiem.
Putting them in the same group as the rest of humanity by example isn't the same thing as "negating." Jumping the gun now, aren't we? No, it's not solely because the world was going to end, but more that once he realized there was no future at all, he felt compelled to do something about it. Had he removed himself from the world, he'd believe there would be a future but it would be without him (all he cared about), but once he realized there wouldn't be one, he had to stop that out of caring about humanity at all. As soon as he forced time to go on, then he makes the decision to create a world where people are happy because he thinks that's what Nunnally would want. Forcibly continuing time gave him an obligation on top of his new view of people in general.

Quote:
Obviously the show cannot pack in everything, thats why the show chose to highlight Rolo's and Shirley's sacrifices as the catalysts in changing Lelouch's perception about humanity- something you chose to completely dismiss.
Pretty sure he listed more than Shirley and Rolo when talking about human happiness, and even listed more than them when speaking on things he lost. He never once solely addressed those two in any context. He addressed at least a dozen characters in every instance.

Quote:
It was through the personal sacrifices of Rolo that enabled Lelouch to see the wants of humanity as a whole. He wouldn't have cared about the world if all he saw were people whom he did not even know or cared for sacrificing themselves for their own causes.
You're just repeating yourself now. He never said it was solely via the cause of Rolo. Wow, fancy that, I'M repeating myself at least 100 times too. Not that I haven't been.

Quote:
Hah, if Lelouch didn't even cared of his own life, I doubt he would care if the world was about to end. The sole reason why he stopped Ragnarok was: he understood that humanity wanted a happier future through the personal sacrifices of Rolo, and notably Shirley, both of which served as catalysts that enabled Lelouch to actually cared for the collective wants of humanity.
I completely agree. Only it was more than Rolo and Shirley.

Quote:
The main drive behind Suzaku's devotion to Lelouch's plans of creating a better tomorrow stemmed from Euphemia's personal sacrifice in her attempt to fulfil Suzaku's earlier wishes of changing Britannia from within. It was a completely different event, but nonetheless a personal sacrifice similar to what Rolo had accomplished for Lelouch. (The reason why Suzaku never supported Lelouch in R1 was because he did not agree with the concept of 'the ends justify the means', he discarded that naive thinking in R2.)
Euphemia didn't sacrifice anything. She got mindfucked and shot. And funny, while Suzaku was mentioning Euphemia, Lelouch was mentioning Nunnally in his decision. So do we add Nunnally onto the list of Shirley and Rolo that you only seem to acknowledge while ignoring everyone else? Once we add Nunnally, who sacrificed nothing and was the victim of circumstance, that just opens the door to add in whoever the hell else, most especially the people he thinks back on when talking to Schneizel, way more than JUST Rolo and Shirley.

Quote:
That's the only method that he could think of at that moment. Sacrificing his freedom to completely lock up a war-mongering tyrant like Charles was itself a way, although not a really good one, to change the world for the better. However, after learning Charles' true intentions, he opposed it on the grounds that Charles' plans were selfish- in that he only cared for himself and Marrianne and did not taken into account the collective wishes of humanity of wanting to maintain their individual indentities and to continually seek happiness in a changing world.
Plot summary is generally frowned upon in discussion. How is this relevant in that it refutes that it was more than just Rolo, Shirley, and Nunnally?

Quote:
Why do you think Lelouch suddenly cared for the collective wants of humanity that he was indifferent to for so long? Because Rolo's sacrifice provided him with the perfect example of how hard a human would strive to acquire bliss. And the key word is Rolo is someone who can relates to Lelouch personally, and that itself made the impact all the more significant for Lelouch.
But not ONCE did he acknowledge Rolo directly. He acknowledged at least TWELVE people in flashbacks and never solely Rolo's cause. The fact that Rolo was the last to die before he changed his mind doesn't mean it was Rolo that did it in the first place. Lelouch would've came to the exact same conclusion had Rolo not even been there because of everything else he saw.

But since we're repeating our points because one can't convince the other in the first place, how about we wrap things up?
Vakir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 16:14   Link #1854
Knight Of Zero
Zero Requiem
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Lelouch cry for Shirley yet not for rolo?
Knight Of Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-06, 18:25   Link #1855
Vakir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero View Post
Lelouch cry for Shirley yet not for rolo?
I think he acknowledged Rolo as much as he did Shirley, he just cried for Shirley because he was probably in love with her.
Vakir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-07, 05:23   Link #1856
Droplet
ヘ( ̄▽ ̄ヘ)(ノ ̄▽ ̄)ノ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero View Post
Lelouch cry for Shirley yet not for rolo?
Lelouch wanted to of course, but he obviously had no tears left.
__________________
Droplet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-07, 17:20   Link #1857
Strygwyr
Attention Queen killer.
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pripyat, Ukraine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero View Post
Lelouch cry for Shirley yet not for rolo?
Lelouch was guilty at that moment
__________________
Strygwyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-10-17, 11:08   Link #1858
Droplet
ヘ( ̄▽ ̄ヘ)(ノ ̄▽ ̄)ノ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnizel View Post
Lelouch was guilty at that moment
Aw, I thought the playful sarcarsm of my statement would be immediately noticed. I wasn't serious.
__________________
Droplet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-11-02, 01:34   Link #1859
Jeffry2009
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Age: 28
Send a message via MSN to Jeffry2009 Send a message via Yahoo to Jeffry2009
Wow. ever since CG was already ended (in a WRONG way), I was proven wrong that Rollo wasn't a douchebag after his death.
Jeffry2009 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-11-02, 01:50   Link #1860
NyxOne
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
...Wait...you necro'd this thread just to speak your hatred for CG...and then...what? Proven- oh, I get it.

Still.
NyxOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.