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Old 2010-09-29, 04:06   Link #2181
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
Macross 7?
No, that's just my personal name for that "higher plane" where the three ( and Brera ) were able to communicate with each other, including distant healing and giving out highly unnecessary slaps do dying persons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
I'm still betting on things staying as they are at series end (my prediction for the movie) Sheryl will want Alto to keep the earring. They all gain this way.
But that's your very personal interpretation and isn't supported by any kind of evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
...which would make it a love-triangle scene anyway
Protecting Frontier could explain the "running away" line, he was always after a sky, with the fragile environment comment related to the bad state of the ship after the attack.

Got any scenes that back up another interpretation of the "pretending not to notice" idea other than that it was referring Sheryl and Ranka? We have all the scenes where Alto acts dense to the girls' interests, Michel's comments on the matter, and seeing the girl who is about to receive the benefits of his new-found attention (sheryl) appearing as he says this line.
I'm basing this other option on the series of events which showed Alto getting more sensitive to the survival aspect of the plight of Frontier ( us vs. them ), the fragility of the place he lives on and his newfound appreciation for it. While Frontier was mostly about the love triangle, there was a quite noticeable undercurrent of how man effects the balance of life and can easily tip it over into an approaching extinction, which was noticed by several bloggers when the series was running. Sheryl arrives in this case because it is the perfect moment to stoke her doubts, which she already had when Alto made his declaration to stay with her just after he had gained knowledge of her illness.

It's not as if the creators wanted to resolve the triangle, after all. That they still failed so badly at keeping it even is a bit of a blemish on their otherwise excellent work.

But, as I said before, it's just another option, one which actually could be interwoven with the more romantic options.


Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
Yep, but that's Ranka's departure your talking about, hence the flash point was still Ranka's departure, even though the build up took many episodes.
Which makes exactly what point? Yeah, Rankas departure is a turning point, I think nobody disputes that. It crystallizes how deep in it Frontier is now, now that their protector has run off on a fools errand, it leaves Alto with the harrowing choice of either staying with the girl he loves to help her cope with her illness or running off after his friend to try to save her ( which would have accomplished.... nothing? It's not as if he was needed on the Macross Quarter ). It surely also left Alto free to develop his relationship with Sheryl more, now that he didn't have to maintain his neutrality charade because of Rankas feelings for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
He definitely wouldn't have mentioned anything about killing Ranka if she hadn't left, so it think this line at least is 100% dependent on her having left
The only person mentioned by name in the conversation is Ranka. Alto goes from their meeting, his vow to protect her, and now, the need to kill her. So, even if Alto has been developing the trait of protectiveness towards MacF over may episodes, this conversation would never have happened at all if she hadn't left like she did.
That's true, but I don't see how it proves any point about Alto loving Ranka romantically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
No need to open up that line of inquiry, we'd be here form weeks. though what Alto was thinking in his head (especially with his claim of being deliberately obtuse) will always be a subject of debate.
Well, until someone translates the light novels, which were told from Altos point of view.

I wonder how a timeline from how Alto perceives his situation would look. Maybe when I get enough free time in the future, I could try to compile what I think his thoughts on all the happenings would have been, although that will probably appear quite slanted to Ranka fans.


But I maintain that there is a pretty distinct timeline when Alto decided that he did not, after all, want to pursue Ranka romantically. Ranka had a chance, in the timeframe of episodes 12-15, but that was one surge which came to absolutely nothing, especially after the downer moment for their romantic relationship in episode 17.
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Old 2010-09-29, 08:25   Link #2182
wisteria233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.co...er-episode-23/



One close-up of Brera's harmonica, zoom up close and note it *looks* like there's a gem of similar colour as Sheryl's earring, at the very top, and the shape is similar too. This shot is from episode 23, just before the 10min mark

Now that I look at this it's probably just a lighting issue LOL, other times it just looks like metal, but other times still the top bit seems to be missing(off-model??). This is Macross, so it's not *completely* impossible I'm pretty sure I saw a similar effect in earlier episodes (when I didn't even have ep 23+) so who knows. The harmonica was able to have some power over Ranka btw.
Considering that we have seen the same harmonica in full before I still don't know where you got that from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
You have zero evidence for Brera being infected by v-type bacteria, whereas there is the video ep 24 5:00+ discusses Grace's use of fold-quartz in her control implants.
Also, Brera's abilities are more in line with Alto + earring than with Ranka / Sheryl.
Just like you have no evidence of either Brera or Alto having fold quartz implants.

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Saying so don't make it so. I'll reiterate the point we've been discussung in this line you claim to be able to refute, along with all the evidence and citations.
The same can be said for the entire basis of your whole argument, saying something is doesn't make it true, especially when it was never stated in series.

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Now, do you still dispute my "CLAIM 1" or not?
I've been doing it this whole time. And you're mixing arguments and events with no connection to suit yourself.

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Episode 23, 14 mins in, Ai-kun's eyes turn red, he captures Ranka and hands her over to Grace. There's no way Ranka caused her own capture by Grace here.
That actually was from the other Vajra, not from Grace. Grace took that time to take control of Ranka, but Grace herself was not responsible for that. Grace doesn't have any control over the Vajra, which is why she needed Ranka and Sheryl. If she never needed girls then she would have just found some way for them all to die tragically without any suspicion being cast on herself. She would have let Sheryl die with her family, she would have found a way to kill Ranka, and Brera he would already be dead.

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And that's not quite true about what happened when Ranka woke up. Grace maintained her control over the network, regardless of Ranka being asleep, but when Ranka and Sheryl sang they competed with Grace's control.
Sorry to be picky, but you left that one open
Ranka wasn't really asleep you know, she wasn't so much asleep as she lost control over her power. It was a projection of Ranka so she actually was singing, unconsciously singing which is why once she woke up, Grace lost control of the Vajra. Alto just found out that she was unconsciously singing unaware of the world around her. They showed at the end of episode 24 that Ranka was in fact singing.

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The joke was about the earring. The scene i've been discussing in ep 23 has NOTHING to do with the earring, and I haven't tried at any point to link the earring to that scene.
Really because your the one who said that Alto shouldn't return the earring because it is a sign of character development, and it would enable him to hear fold waves. I disagreed and pointed out that Alto had already showed his development two episodes ago, and that the earring belonged to Sheryl and served as a memento for her family. In other words stop trying to change the subject, and stop misquoting me it doesn't help your arguments any.

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Does something being Deus-ex-Machina change whether you believed it happened in the story?
Stop putting words into my mouth I never said that I didn't believe that it happened I only called it a Dues ex Machina. And no it doesn't apply to your other arguments because you have no basis for saying it.

Quote:
Maybe she shared her head with those voices, it's not a big deal.
Ok we'll just say Brera communicated by magic then? Despite the facts
1. Grace's implant and control technology used fold-quartz (ep 24)
2. Grace had plans to stick the control implants in as many human's heads as possible, or kill any human who resisted
3. Brera was a cyborg with implants, and under Graces control, a prime candidate for having a control implant
4. Brera able to receive fold waves from both girls in episode 7 (confirmed to be true in ep 15)
5. Brera able to astral communicate with Ranka, same as Ranka/Sheryl in ep 7, and Alto/Ranka/Sheryl in ep 25.
6. Fold-quartz gives instantaneous transmission - perfect for controlling Brera more effectively. Why wouldn't Grace have used the tech on Brera? or for her link with Macross Galaxy for that matter?
1. It was never stated it was
2. That was the plan which she wanted to spread to other colonies hence the need for Sheryl.
3. Again still not proving anything
4. I already stated why that could be a possibility
5. refer to number 4
6. You know Grace isn't far from Brera, plus she planned this for years, I'd imagine there isn't much of any lag when the message isn't being sent very far.

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He's built on the same system in episode
They never once said that he was built with fold quartz in the episode.

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They said as much when they revealed Grace's tech for controlling people was based on fold-quartz implants in ep 24.
They were talking about the possibility of using fold-quartz implants. Grace also says that its the first time that she actually took control over a human conscience using the network, which doesn't make sense if they took control over the remaining inhabitants of Galaxy. Also part of the reason why Grace needed the Vajra was because of their ability to produce fold crystals.
The scene where Ai-kun turns on Ranka to capture her and gives her to Grace.

Quote:
Several sources state there's fold-quartz inside the v-type bacteria, and when you consider it, that's got to be true. Otherwise fold-quartz is NOT the only substance that can emit the fold-waves, and loses it's significance. So, Ranka and Sheryl are both using fold-quartz in a way already - it amplifies their singing as fold-waves. it's not hard then, to say Alto with fold-quartz could have a fraction of their power.
What sources are you talking about?
From episode 24, near the start. Plus she monitors fold-waves during the series - you need fold-quartz for that. And she would obviously be using her own zero-time-implant technology, there's more than one Grace (clones) at most times remember?

Quote:
A few key agents and clones is hardly likely to break the bank. If the stuff was that hard for Grace to acquire, she'd have yanked those earrings out of Sheryl's ears the minute she met her. She is shown to directly control at least one Vajra, and Galaxy / Brera's craft seem to be able to hide from the Vajra pretty well even before Grace got control of the queen. If MacGalaxy can hide near the Vajra main planet without alerting the Vajra to their presence, they can definitely take out a few straggling Vajra for more Fold-Quartz
Grace never controlled the Vajra, and Brera was told to just stay back and observe the fight he says as much in later episodes. They only got to the Vajra planet because of Ranka, once Ranka began to sing Grace used some good old mind rape to take control over Ranka. Again Grace can't control the Vajra which is why she needed Sheryl and Ranka.
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Pure cybernetics can't interact with fold-waves without the fold-quartz present. This would dilute any reason to go after the fold-quartz in the series.
They never said that cybernetics can't interact with fold-waves. So long as it has a human conscious you can be used.

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How does it work in Grace's implant set-up then ? this was supposed to give human-human direct contact using fold-quartz (creating an 'overmind' like the Vajra)
Simple she's not emitting fold waves just using a cybernetwork. Which works when you consider the fact that she's been planning this for at least 10 years, so she'd have time to create something similar to the design but still need Vajra for supplies. It was a plan that still in the planning stages if she went farther then that they would have been in trouble.
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Old 2010-09-29, 13:40   Link #2183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
No, that's just my personal name for that "higher plane" where the three ( and Brera ) were able to communicate with each other, including distant healing and giving out highly unnecessary slaps do dying persons.
I was just joking that your higher musical planes phrase seemed to describe Mac7 in a nutshell After you said "Macross isn't about ..."

EDIT : And I was just sayin' Alto can fly all around the planet, with the earring, while hearing Sheryl+Ranka singing, not saying there necessarily going to be repeating the mystical scene from ep 25.
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But that's your very personal interpretation and isn't supported by any kind of evidence.
I'm saying the movie will end like the series does. You need evidence that they're going to change it. I'm also saying what-you-see-is-what-you-get for the series end. You need evidence that what's seen at series end isn't the real end. How is saying the ending we got is the real one a "very personal" interpretation?
Quote:
I'm basing this other option on the series of events which showed Alto getting more sensitive to the survival aspect of the plight of Frontier ( us vs. them ), the fragility of the place he lives on and his newfound appreciation for it. While Frontier was mostly about the love triangle, there was a quite noticeable undercurrent of how man effects the balance of life and can easily tip it over into an approaching extinction, which was noticed by several bloggers when the series was running. Sheryl arrives in this case because it is the perfect moment to stoke her doubts, which she already had when Alto made his declaration to stay with her just after he had gained knowledge of her illness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me19
I think his line "pretending not to notice a lot of things" doesn't have anything to do with the girls. It's more like his responsibility to Frontier as a soldier since all this time he's been fighting all along for Ranka, and now that Frontier is in whack, he can't ignore it. Just my two cents. (that's worth a million)
While I agree with Sheryl's arrival stoking her doubts , I think it's also alluding to Alto's pretend obliviousness through the "pretending not to notice" line coinciding with seeing a glimpse of Sheryl. The timing backs this up. The shot of Sheryl's hand opening the door coincides 100% with the line i quoted, lasting about 2 seconds. Then Alto speaks for a further 45 seconds before we see Sheryl again. There is no specific reason Sheryl's hand opening the door had to coincide exactly with the quote.
The only relevant line Sheryl actually needed to overhear was the "Kill Ranka"/"So this is your Love" lines near the end. She could have first been sighted, 40,35,30,25,20 seconds before this final line is heard without any difficulty. Along with Michel's various series comments on the matter, I think this backs up my interpretation of what Alto was alluding to. They could even have left the "hand opening the door" off completely, and had Sheryl shown at the end, that'd make no difference at all to your interpretations.

This is no way conflicts with the other elements in the conversation you've noticed.
Quote:
It's not as if the creators wanted to resolve the triangle, after all. That they still failed so badly at keeping it even is a bit of a blemish on their otherwise excellent work.
But, as I said before, it's just another option, one which actually could be interwoven with the more romantic options.
Failure implies an intent other than that which is superficially portrayed, so Alto could still be intended to have romantic feelings for Ranka, but that was just abysmally portrayed.
The second half of the series has Brera as Ranka's bodyguard, and her under government protection, which reduced Alto's ability to access Ranka whether he want to or not (hence having to sneak in, in ep 17). Awkward moments prove nothing about someones inner feelings.
Quote:
Which makes exactly what point? [...]
My point was that the interpretations I was being given of the scene didn't gel 100%. I have come to a much better understanding of how this scene fits in now, and managed to decipher a cryptic line or two. I'm really not interested in discussing who-loved-who more.
Quote:
Well, until someone translates the light novels, which were told from Altos point of view.
Now that would be helpful

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-29 at 16:55.
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Old 2010-09-29, 15:09   Link #2184
user112168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisteria23
Just like you have no evidence of either Brera or Alto having fold quartz implants
No one ever said Alto had them.
Just that Brera was a cyborg controlled by Grace, and Grace's control technology was based on fold-quartz.
Quote:
I've been doing it this whole time. And you're mixing arguments and events with no connection to suit yourself.
Duh?? How old are you?
You said "Alto never heard both girls singing in episode 7". That was your position. I cited two scenes from episode 15 with the timings, where separate witnesses including Alto make a counter claim in their own words. I'm not mixing anything. Both those ep 15 scenes coincide with flashbacks to the scene we've been discussing. and specifically mention both girls being heard in the ep 7 battle. Alto and Brera heard them.
You've yet to show how these two sources are not relevant to discussing the ep 7 event.
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That actually was from the other Vajra, not from Grace. Grace took that time to take control of Ranka, but Grace herself was not responsible for that.
Why would the Vajra deliberately help Grace? Ai-kun delivered Ranka straight to Battle Galaxy, not a Vajra hive or anything. It's possible Ai-kun was planted by Grace, he did turn up at the same time as Brera arrived (or he could've been an early hatchling from the eggs in Frontier). But remember we were discussing whether Grace could get supplies of fold-quartz. Her having at least one pet Vajra seems to confirm she could get fold-quartz if needed.
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Grace doesn't have any control over the Vajra, which is why she needed Ranka and Sheryl. If she never needed girls then she would have just found some way for them all to die tragically without any suspicion being cast on herself. She would have let Sheryl die with her family, she would have found a way to kill Ranka, and Brera he would already be dead.
Grace is able to have Battle Galaxy planted near the Vajra planet without retalation, and controls at least one Vajra (Ai-kun) to capture Ranka and bring her to Battle Galaxy. Brera alone could keep Grace supplied with Fold-quartz. If Alto can collect it, so can Brera (more firepower).
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Ranka wasn't really asleep you know, she wasn't so much asleep as she lost control over her power. It was a projection of Ranka so she actually was singing, unconsciously singing which is why once she woke up, Grace lost control of the Vajra.Alto just found out that she was unconsciously singing unaware of the world around her. They showed at the end of episode 24 that Ranka was in fact singing.
Yeah but Grace didn't take control of the Vajra Queen till AFTER Ranka already awoke. Ep 25 6:30+ You see Ranka woken by Alto and then Grace taking control of the Vajra. You have this opposite the chronology shown on the screen
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Really because your the one who said that Alto shouldn't return the earring because it is a sign of character development, and it would enable him to hear fold waves. I disagreed and pointed out that Alto had already showed his development two episodes ago, and that the earring belonged to Sheryl and served as a memento for her family. In other words stop trying to change the subject, and stop misquoting me it doesn't help your arguments any.
You conflate two totally separate discussions, one of which you weren't even directly involved in with no real explanation that one bears on the other, other than they both have some relation to "character development" and then accuse me of "misquoting" you?
Where did I quote you wrong?
Maybe your just trolling. Look further down, I found proof of you creating a fake quote of me posted hours after I last edited my post. I'm waiting to see whether you edit out the fake quote and claim it never happened.
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Does something being Deus-ex-Machina change whether you believed it happened in the story?
Stop putting words into my mouth I never said that I didn't believe that it happened I only called it a Dues ex Machina. And no it doesn't apply to your other arguments because you have no basis for saying it.
I was not putting words in your mouth, I was asking whether you supported the question I asked (which you answer correctly - good for you). You thinking some is Deus-Ex-Machina or not has no bearing on whether it's a relevant part of the plot.
Back to what you call my "other arguments" which was pointing out the scene 12 minutes into episode 25 shows full communication between the 3 main characters. Since you correctly said "no" to my question, do you have any objections other than "deus Ex Machina" to this scene being relevant?
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1. It was never stated it was
2. That was the plan which she wanted to spread to other colonies hence the need for Sheryl.
6. You know Grace isn't far from Brera, plus she planned this for years, I'd imagine there isn't much of any lag when the message isn't being sent very far.
1. It was stated directly in episode 24, 5 minutes in. Graces fold-quartz based implant technology is explained here
2. Sheryl wouldn't have anything directly to do with the implant plan. She was for the "Plan B" Vajra attacks.
6. Grace has realtime access to Brera even while he's light-years away, which would take years to communicate by normal means. And she had zero-time implant network tech, which of course she would have used.
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He's built on the same system in episode
They never once said that he was built with fold quartz in the episode
Hey!! that quote you have from me isn't even in my post! And I never made the argument that Brera's implant have a direct quotation from any episode - that's not even the way I would've worded it. And you posted your reply 8 hours after I last edited mine. Wanna talk about putting words in people's mouths??

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-29 at 18:35.
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Old 2010-09-29, 16:46   Link #2185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisteria23
What sources are you talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...er_terminology
"The final episodes have revealed that the Vajra communicate using a fold network activated by the fold quartz in the V-Type microorganisms that they carry inside the organs of their body."

http://moa.dracandros.com/Vajra_%28Macross%29
"[...] However, it determined that the Vajra's network of intestinal germs emit a type of fold wave which transmit information."

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/32-m...-frontier.html
"Since she's infected with this virus, she has microscopic trace elements of Fold Quartz in her body. This is the substance the Vajra use to fold without the time-dilation issues that Humans, Zentradi, and the Protoculture encountered, therefore presenting a more efficient and less time-consuming fold."

NOTE in Mac Frontier, all the times they say that Fold Quartz is the source of fold-waves. They never say "fold quartz and/or various stomach bacteria".

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-29 at 17:00.
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Old 2010-09-29, 16:51   Link #2186
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
I'm saying the movie will end like the series does. You need evidence that they're going to change it. I'm also saying what-you-see-is-what-you-get for the series end. You need evidence that what's seen at series end isn't the real end. How is saying the ending we got is the real one a "very personal" interpretation?
Wait, what? How does the whole earring thing have anything to do with the how the series ended?

And I can at the drop of a hat cite a pretty long list of things which very much indicate that the ending of the show was just where things stopped for us, but that the probably outcome is with near certainty an Sheryl x Alto pairing. In fact, I already did so here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
While I agree with Sheryl's arrival stoking her doubts , I think it's also alluding to Alto's pretend obliviousness through the "pretending not to notice" line coinciding with seeing a glimpse of Sheryl. The timing backs this up. The shot of Sheryl's hand opening the door coincides 100% with the line i quoted, lasting about 2 seconds. Then Alto speaks for a further 45 seconds before we see Sheryl again. There is no specific reason Sheryl's hand opening the door had to coincide exactly with the quote.
Unless you take into account that this is exactly the point from which after Sheryl is supposed to hear what Alto says and not what he says before. And I don't think I really disputed that the line of pretending not to notice is not directed at Sheryl. But it is also directed at Ranka, because that is what is beared out by the events in the series. Alto willfully ignored the feelings of both girls, because he didn't wanted to hurt neither of them.

I think the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that him generally saying he was ignoring things meant specifically that he ignored Sheryls romantic advances because he loves Ranka romantically. Sheryl arriving on the rooftop doesn't mean anything more that she was included in that statement and was supposed to hear and misunderstand his lines which followed after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
Failure implies an intent other than that which is superficially portrayed, so Alto could still be intended to have romantic feelings for Ranka, but that was just abysmally portrayed.
The second half of the series has Brera as Ranka's bodyguard, and her under government protection, which reduced Alto's ability to access Ranka whether he want to or not (hence having to sneak in, in ep 17). Awkward moments prove nothing about someones inner feelings.
Well, since this all plays into it being portrayed that Alto was not really interested romantically in Ranka after a certain point, don't expect me to disagree here.

The only point of contention would be that I still kinda think that maybe Ranka was supposed to fail so badly at life. There is still the school of thought that Ranka was supposed to be a deconstruction of moe characters and her subsequent failures at simply conquering everything through being cute was intended from the start.

Since the creators of the show are always being so damned coy about their real intentions and motivations for building the characters and their interactions, we'll probably never know, but it appears to me to be a valid school of thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
My point was that the interpretations I was being given of the scene didn't gel 100%. I have come to a much better understanding of how this scene fits in now, and managed to decipher a cryptic line or two. I'm really not interested in discussing who-loved-who more.
Suit yourself. Since the series ended in a non-resolution, it's for me the only way to get closure. Approximating oneself to near certainty is never as good as a proper ending, but it is satisfying to bludgeon Ranka fans into submission with facts.
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Old 2010-09-29, 18:17   Link #2187
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Wait, what? How does the whole earring thing have anything to do with the how the series ended?
It's how we saw things play out at the end of the series. I just note the state of affairs (regardless of romantic hook-ups) with Alto flying, able to hear their singing via the earring.
Flying. And the girls + their singing. Pretty much Alto's reason for life, no reason he wouldn't continue to combine the two now that he can.
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And I can at the drop of a hat cite a pretty long list of things which very much indicate that the ending of the show was just where things stopped for us, but that the probably outcome is with near certainty an Sheryl x Alto pairing. In fact, I already did so here.
If there was an Alto x Sheryl pairing he'd definitely get to keep the earring. If there was no pairing, he'd most likely keep the earring anyway (to hear/sense both girls).
Only in an Alto x Ranka pairing would he have any likelyhood of having to give the earring back.
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Unless you take into account that this is exactly the point from which after Sheryl is supposed to hear what Alto says and not what he says before. And I don't think I really disputed that the line of pretending not to notice is not directed at Sheryl. But it is also directed at Ranka, because that is what is beared out by the events in the series. Alto willfully ignored the feelings of both girls, because he didn't wanted to hurt neither of them.
I think the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that him generally saying he was ignoring things meant specifically that he ignored Sheryls romantic advances because he loves Ranka romantically. Sheryl arriving on the rooftop doesn't mean anything more that she was included in that statement and was supposed to hear and misunderstand his lines which followed after.
Note, I already changed my position in several posts ago to include both Ranka & Sheryl in the "pretend not to notice" reference. The timing argument was more in repsonse to me19 than you (who was disputing the interpretation completely), and discusses Sheryl purely because she is the one actually seen in that shot. I think it's more a foreshadowing of his time with Sheryl to come, than saying he only was neglecting Sheryl.
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The only point of contention would be that I still kinda think that maybe Ranka was supposed to fail so badly at life. There is still the school of thought that Ranka was supposed to be a deconstruction of moe characters and her subsequent failures at simply conquering everything through being cute was intended from the start.
Since the creators of the show are always being so damned coy about their real intentions and motivations for building the characters and their interactions, we'll probably never know, but it appears to me to be a valid school of thought.
I noticed a lot of inverted SDF Macross moments etc, eg Ranka Loses Miss Macross while Minmay wins. I was thinking that's more about paying homage to SDF while keeping people guessing.She got her break in the Movie anyway for being cute and on Gallia-IV concert, so the theme of failing-by-cuteness isn't totally consistent.
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Suit yourself. Since the series ended in a non-resolution, it's for me the only way to get closure. Approximating oneself to near certainty is never as good as a proper ending, but it is satisfying to bludgeon Ranka fans into submission with facts.
No submission! I just didn't want to get into a long subjective debate about what Alto was thinking all the way through the series. For example ep 17 could be viewed as cold/no feelings or just awkward, which wouldn't tell us anything about what's going on in Alto's head. He did just climb up quite a dangerous looking wall just to see her.

EDIT : Just started reading your Essay on the romance.
One thing : Ranka doesn't actually get saved by Alto very often, any more than Sheryl does. Ranka's plights are just a little more dramatic.
If you count "rescue from physical harm by flying". He rescues Sheryl in eps 1 & 8, and Ranka in ep 2. So, there's more Sheryl-rescues than Ranka-rescues at least up to ep 10. From ep10 onwards, Alto tries to rescue Ranka a couple more times, but is always pipped-at-the-post by Brera. Hence his line at the end of the series (paraphrasing) "this time Ranka, I WILL rescue you"
With the final rescue, it puts Alto at 2-2 for physical rescues of Sheryl / Ranka
Ranka is saved by Brera twice (ep10 , ep15), and Sheryl requires saving twice more too (Gallia-IV and the finale)
Let me know if i missed any.

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-29 at 19:23.
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Old 2010-09-29, 20:54   Link #2188
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Is this entire conversation really about whether or not an earring can undermine multiple episodes of development?

No wonder it's on the speculation thread.
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Old 2010-09-29, 21:28   Link #2189
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Is this entire conversation really about whether or not an earring can undermine multiple episodes of development?

No wonder it's on the speculation thread.
I seem to be arguing with Wisteria about the metaphysics of fold-quartz. I'm more interested in that than the relationships.

The whole thing started when I suggested Alto having the earring at the end of the series allows him to have some contact with both girls. i.e. flying around, while listening to their singing.

*snip*

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-09-30 at 00:02. Reason: Removed flame-bait. Don't let it happen again.
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Old 2010-09-30, 00:00   Link #2190
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Yot-chan has the right idea: get to the point of the current discussion and move on. If the discussion still can't move beyond this, then it needs to come to an end.
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Old 2010-09-30, 05:28   Link #2191
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It's how we saw things play out at the end of the series. I just note the state of affairs (regardless of romantic hook-ups) with Alto flying, able to hear their singing via the earring.
Flying. And the girls + their singing. Pretty much Alto's reason for life, no reason he wouldn't continue to combine the two now that he can.
Eh, that really is just idle speculation, IMO. We got exactly no indication that Alto wouldn't return the earring to Sheryl. Is Sheryl then capable of leaving it with Alto? Sure she is, but that is not inferred anywhere. Nor is that Alto would even want that.

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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
If there was an Alto x Sheryl pairing he'd definitely get to keep the earring.
Why?

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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
If there was no pairing, he'd most likely keep the earring anyway (to hear/sense both girls).
Only in an Alto x Ranka pairing would he have any likelyhood of having to give the earring back.
Not really. Sheryl lent the earring to Alto, he will give it back. If Sheryl then wants to have the earring stay with him, that's her prerogative. And it may well be so, maybe she wants him to hear herself and Ranka sing. But there is no logical implication that it will happen. Alto has not had a sudden revelation in the last episode how he needs to hear the two girls all the time.

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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
Note, I already changed my position in several posts ago to include both Ranka & Sheryl in the "pretend not to notice" reference. The timing argument was more in repsonse to me19 than you (who was disputing the interpretation completely), and discusses Sheryl purely because she is the one actually seen in that shot. I think it's more a foreshadowing of his time with Sheryl to come, than saying he only was neglecting Sheryl.
Agreed on that part.

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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
I noticed a lot of inverted SDF Macross moments etc, eg Ranka Loses Miss Macross while Minmay wins. I was thinking that's more about paying homage to SDF while keeping people guessing.She got her break in the Movie anyway for being cute and on Gallia-IV concert, so the theme of failing-by-cuteness isn't totally consistent.
True, but I think the deconstruction doesn't begin at that point yet. She was being built up until episode 15, which is basically her high-point in the series. At that point, she had a real shot at getting actively noticed by Alto, had come into her own as a star and developed some inner fortitude by defying Ozma.

And then it began all to crumble from the next episode forward...

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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
No submission! I just didn't want to get into a long subjective debate about what Alto was thinking all the way through the series. For example ep 17 could be viewed as cold/no feelings or just awkward, which wouldn't tell us anything about what's going on in Alto's head. He did just climb up quite a dangerous looking wall just to see her.
And was bloody annoyed by it, not knowing why he couldn't come in the normal way. I went into detail in my analysis why I think the ep 17 scene was where the possible Alto x Ranka romance withered on the vine, which you read. So I don't need to repeat myself.

And we are getting into it on the romance thread as I can see.

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EDIT : Just started reading your Essay on the romance.
One thing : Ranka doesn't actually get saved by Alto very often, any more than Sheryl does. Ranka's plights are just a little more dramatic.
If you count "rescue from physical harm by flying". He rescues Sheryl in eps 1 & 8, and Ranka in ep 2. So, there's more Sheryl-rescues than Ranka-rescues at least up to ep 10. From ep10 onwards, Alto tries to rescue Ranka a couple more times, but is always pipped-at-the-post by Brera. Hence his line at the end of the series (paraphrasing) "this time Ranka, I WILL rescue you"
With the final rescue, it puts Alto at 2-2 for physical rescues of Sheryl / Ranka
Ranka is saved by Brera twice (ep10 , ep15), and Sheryl requires saving twice more too (Gallia-IV and the finale)
Let me know if i missed any
.

Well, I'll just count the unsuccessful ones, too. The intent was there and Ranka noticed the selfsame. And he did save Ranka in ep 10 by delaying the Hydra from pouncing on her.

He saves ( or tries to save ) Ranka in episodes: 1, 2, 10, 13, 14, 16, 25. And protects her during episodes 20+21

He saves Sheryl in episodes: 8, 14. Episode 1 doesn't count, because he pushed her off the stage himself.

There's a reason why I think "Taskete, Alto-kun!" is Rankas mating cry.
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Old 2010-10-28, 18:12   Link #2192
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In the movie ... Grace is talking to someone else...while naked...

Who is that? A new enemy that will be revealed in the next movie?
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Old 2010-10-28, 18:26   Link #2193
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In the movie ... Grace is talking to someone else...while naked...

Who is that? A new enemy that will be revealed in the next movie?
Seems to be the same voices in her head from the series.
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Old 2010-10-29, 18:02   Link #2194
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Seems to be the same voices in her head from the series.

Yes I know... But who are they? An AI? , Alien?, zentradi?, a new enemy?
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Old 2010-10-29, 19:12   Link #2195
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Nobody really knows. My speculation during the series was that this is set-up for the next Macross series, where it will be cyborgs vs. natural humans/zentrans/zolans.
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Old 2010-10-29, 19:32   Link #2196
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Nobody really knows. My speculation during the series was that this is set-up for the next Macross series, where it will be cyborgs vs. natural humans/zentrans/zolans.
I love the smell of interstellar war in the morning.

I figured the voices were the other members of the Galaxy leadership. Of course even the series largely leaves Galaxy apparently intact. I mean Alto flies through the cruiser formation but we never actually see any of them blow up, unless they do off screen. Given implants and how Brera was totally subjugated, and if we include some of the more scary notions in Sheryl's manga (All of Galaxy's citizens requiring implants, which could include what Brera had), then it's possible they already have an army of several million, not to mention AIs equivalent to Sharon Apple to control Ghost V-9s or whatever else they want to field. All in all a pretty scary notion for NUNS given the slaughter VF-27s and Ghost V-9s can inflict upon their red shirt pilots in those old VF-171s. I mean heck I doubt the Nightmare Plus is as good as even the VF-19, and that plane is almost two decades old.
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Old 2010-10-30, 17:28   Link #2197
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It make sense... Because at the 2nd movie, we see an upgraded ver of konig monster,
And a misterious red VF-1

Maybe that is the new enemy from another macross fleet
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Old 2010-10-31, 18:24   Link #2198
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Personally I think they're switching the movie from Macross Zero to a remake of DYRL, thus the VF-1 Strike Pack. I mean if it's an enemy that's not going to be very scary given just how OLD that plane is. I mean unless the pilot is Max Jenius, I'm pretty sure Alto can beat it handily with a VF-25.

Actually yes, I am going to say a DYRL remake. And I have a guess as to who is going to play Minmay~
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Old 2010-10-31, 20:27   Link #2199
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Ahahahah... great idea. A movie in the movie, they are making a re-make of DYRL in the second Frontier movie.
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Old 2010-11-01, 04:43   Link #2200
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Would be amazing if it happened. I'll hold you to that speculation.
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