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Old 2008-05-16, 14:10   Link #221
Tabris
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They could do the unthinkable and not kill people off :P
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Old 2008-05-16, 14:29   Link #222
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Originally Posted by Tabris View Post
They could do the unthinkable and not kill people off :P
UMPOSSIBLE!

Macross would NEVER do that!

*ignores Macross 7*

NNEEEVVAAAAR!

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Old 2008-05-16, 14:38   Link #223
ReddyRedWolf
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Checks those who died in Macross 7.

Gigil, Capt. Kiryu, two protodevlin weirdos, 1 diamond force, Docker's expendable boys...

Well nobody of importance really.
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Old 2008-05-16, 15:45   Link #224
Kikuchi
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Checks those who died in Macross 7.

Gigil, Capt. Kiryu, two protodevlin weirdos, 1 diamond force, Docker's expendable boys...

Well nobody of importance really.
Yeah, they were all disposable :/

In fact, when they "killed"
Spoiler for Macross 7 episode 43:
I was EXTASIC. I was like "FINALLY, they have the balls to pull something like that !"

What was my disappointment to see him back in the next ep -_-
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Old 2008-05-16, 16:42   Link #225
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Eh, she hasnīt been fleshed out yet enough to be an "important" death. Iīd think Luca would be better, if we have to begin killing off people so soon.
Has anyone here seen Soukou no Strain? That was a show with the balls to kill of main characters... Macross Frontier must have his own style so it mustn't be a copypasta, but some drama is needed. I hope Luca will die and Ozma too, but later. If Ozma dies because of Alto's fault it will be very interesting to see how Alto will react and grow in answer to this event.
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Old 2008-05-16, 17:07   Link #226
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Has anyone here seen Soukou no Strain? That was a show with the balls to kill of main characters... Macross Frontier must have his own style so it mustn't be a copypasta, but some drama is needed. I hope Luca will die and Ozma too, but later. If Ozma dies because of Alto's fault it will be very interesting to see how Alto will react and grow in answer to this event.
Well aren't you a pessimistic fellow. Major death occurred early on in Macross Frontier, where Ozma's very important wingman died in a rather gruesome manner.

In Macross Zero, both Sara and Shin (the main characters) died (or one could interpret them as being in a 'better world'). Adding to the list of fatalities is Roy Fokker of Macross, who was crushed to death in DYRL, while Hayao was vaporized by Macross' shield overloading or sniped off by Milia in DYRL. Or there is Macross PLUS, where Guld pretty much went blind while doing a Kamikaze run against the Ghost, and later exploded in flashing glory, not a very pretty picture.

And if you want a serious death count, the original Macross had a death toll of 10 billion.

I wonder if thats enough for you

- Tak (No, Macross deaths aren't pretty...)
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Old 2008-05-16, 18:48   Link #227
Wesley84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Has anyone here seen Soukou no Strain? That was a show with the balls to kill of main characters... Macross Frontier must have his own style so it mustn't be a copypasta, but some drama is needed. I hope Luca will die and Ozma too, but later. If Ozma dies because of Alto's fault it will be very interesting to see how Alto will react and grow in answer to this event.
You don't need balls to kill cliched characters you've barely even introduced.

It was a bodyfest from the get go, and no one was really likeable or really all that interesting. Basically they had some stock Vandred footage, and decided to kill a few bitches before it wsa over.

As for Frontier...I think Quarter will go down early, so that's the Bridge Bunnies, the Captain, and the Hairdresser. Cathy will make it though.
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Old 2008-05-16, 18:50   Link #228
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
As for Frontier...I think Quarter will go down early, so that's the Bridge Bunnies, the Captain, and the Hairdresser. Cathy will make it though.
If that happened she would only survive because the captain threw her whining ass off the ship
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Old 2008-05-16, 18:54   Link #229
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
If that happened she would only survive because the captain threw her whining ass off the ship
You say that like it's a bad thing. Living to have the last laugh is totally worth a little indignity.
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Old 2008-05-17, 01:45   Link #230
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Well aren't you a pessimistic fellow. Major death occurred early on in Macross Frontier, where Ozma's very important wingman died in a rather gruesome manner.
A barely named side character shown only in in some scenes of the first two episodes... I wouldn't call it "major death"...

Quote:
In Macross Zero, both Sara and Shin (the main characters) died (or one could interpret them as being in a 'better world'). Adding to the list of fatalities is Roy Fokker of Macross, who was crushed to death in DYRL, while Hayao was vaporized by Macross' shield overloading or sniped off by Milia in DYRL. Or there is Macross PLUS, where Guld pretty much went blind while doing a Kamikaze run against the Ghost, and later exploded in flashing glory, not a very pretty picture.
I was talking about Macross Frontier ONLY, not about the various Macross OVAs.

Quote:
And if you want a serious death count, the original Macross had a death toll of 10 billion.
True, but they're nameless characters. The only named character who died was
Spoiler:

I'm talking about the "good guys side" of course.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
You don't need balls to kill cliched characters you've barely even introduced.
You know that those deaths aren't the only ones...

Quote:
It was a bodyfest from the get go, and no one was really likeable or really all that interesting. Basically they had some stock Vandred footage, and decided to kill a few bitches before it wsa over.
To me, and many to many others as well, Soukou no Strain was one of the best sci-fi series ever aired: too bad you don't think the same. Anyway I mentioned that series only because I would like that the good guys side to be hit pretty hard because I don't like shows where the good side owns the universe (=>Gundam SEED...).

Quote:
As for Frontier...I think Quarter will go down early, so that's the Bridge Bunnies, the Captain, and the Hairdresser. Cathy will make it though.
I hope so too... some serious drama can bring great story telling and character growth. I don't understand why people get so attached to characters as if they were real persons... I mean who cares if they die or live, they're just animations. The important point is to enjoy the show, that's all that matters to me.
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Old 2008-05-17, 02:25   Link #231
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
You know that those deaths aren't the only ones...
Those were the only kind of deaths period. And it's not like anyone in the show actually gave a shit when someone died. Not the main character at least. The whole "brother complex" thing was very unattractive, and made her look like a cold-hearted bitch. If she didn't have a knack for picking up rivalries at the drop of a hat, no one would have noticed her.

Quote:
To me, and many to many others as well, Soukou no Strain was one of the best sci-fi series ever aired: too bad you don't think the same.
Once you get over the novelty of a time dilated war that only served as a one time plot device, and the girly-looking mecha, Strain isn't anything special. It doesn't have technological progression or any real variety in weaponry. It's not character driven. The whole thing is about "What the hell is wrong with her brother?" and thankfully it only takes thirteen episodes to answer it before he's killed off.

Quote:
Anyway I mentioned that series only because I would like that the good guys side to be hit pretty hard because I don't like shows where the good side owns the universe (=>Gundam SEED...).
There wasn't a "good side" in Strain. There were the characters who recieved most of the screentime while living in a bright colorful highschool-like enviroment, and then the characters who really liked brown, orange, black, and possibly dark shades of purple, like they were living in a morgue or something.

And the good guys hardly owned the universe in Seed. They spent most of the series running away and hiding, and when they finally made a move, it was in the middle of a big battle where only one ship was really out to get them. If it wasn't everyone just getting tired of Azarel's bullshit on the Dominion, Archangel at least would have been lost.

It was a chaotic mess at the end, where order on all sides completely broke down into general melee, where the more powerful ships and mobile suits would tend to fair better.

Quote:
I hope so too... some serious drama can bring great story telling and character growth. I don't understand why people get so attached to characters as if they were real persons... I mean who cares if they die or live, they're just animations. The important point is to enjoy the show, that's all that matters to me.
Possibly a scene of fairness, justice, personal enjoyment or fondess. Sometimes a character death is just horribly done or for the wrong reasons like simply for the sake of it. My personal favorite is when a character dies to feed a main character's developement.

Then again, I only said Quarter will go down because it's already shown all it can do, while the characters onboard are pretty much expendable. No one will weep unless they really like bridge bunnies, hair dressers, and maritime whalers. I swear, if the space whale idea pans out like I expect it to, "Thar she blows!" had better happen.

Last edited by Wesley84; 2008-05-17 at 02:53.
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Old 2008-05-17, 03:12   Link #232
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
I hope so too... some serious drama can bring great story telling and character growth. I don't understand why people get so attached to characters as if they were real persons... I mean who cares if they die or live, they're just animations. The important point is to enjoy the show, that's all that matters to me.
Because some people enjoy seeing the cahracters relationships grow and evolve. That is what at least makes a show enjoyable for me, so please stop assuming that only "early deaths" of main characters can make for good drama. That is a very narrow definition on how to build up a show.

Soukou no Strain was maybe like this, but it introduced its mood from the very first episode... in the end I really couldnīt take the whole emo Sara anymore.

Anyway, I like to grow attached to the characters, because it makes it more enjoayable to see their relationships evolve. If they get killed off nilly-willy at the beginning of the anime, without having a defined relationship with the other characters, then their deaths are empty and meaningless. Killing of Klan is quite too soon, as her relationship with Michel hasnīt been explored yet. Ozma, IMO, also still has a love triangle to resolve with Cathy and Leon.

I donīt rule out character deaths at all, but Iīd like to get to know them first and have their relationship arcs played out before they go.
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Old 2008-05-17, 03:18   Link #233
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Those were the only kind of deaths period. And it's not like anyone in the show actually gave a shit when someone died. Not the main character at least. The whole "brother complex" thing was very unattractive, and made her look like a cold-hearted bitch. If she didn't have a knack for picking up rivalries at the drop of a hat, no one would have noticed her.
No they weren't the only kind of deaths, but we can't enter in details HERE because we would break rules. I only mentioned Soukou no Strain in order to bring an example of a show which killed off some main characters without problems, not to open an OFF-TOPIC debate on the series.

Quote:
Once you get over the novelty of a time dilated war that only served as a one time plot device, and the girly-looking mecha, Strain isn't anything special. It doesn't have technological progression or any real variety in weaponry. It's not character driven. The whole thing is about "What the hell is wrong with her brother?" and thankfully it only takes thirteen episodes to answer it before he's killed off.
Who cares about technological progression and weaponry... the show is about the conflict and drama which fall upon the main character and her friends. This is what truly makes that anime great, not the mecha and weaponry things.

Quote:
There wasn't a "good side" in Strain. There were the characters who recieved most of the screentime while living in a bright colorful highschool-like enviroment, and then the characters who really liked brown, orange, black, and possibly dark shades of purple, like they were living in a morgue or something.
I think there was a good side, but it depends on POV I guess.

Quote:
And the good guys hardly owned the universe in Seed. They spent most of the series running away and hiding, and when they finally made a move, it was in the middle of a big battle where only one ship was really out to get them. If it wasn't everyone just getting tired of Azarel's bullshit on the Dominion, Archangel at least would have been lost.
Uhm was it normal for Freedom owning entire fleets? You're free to think so, but many people won't agree.

Quote:
My personal favorite is when a character dies to feed a main character's developement.
Yes of course the death must be useful for something/someone, not wasted.

Quote:
Then again, I only said Quarter will go down because it's already shown all it can do, while the characters onboard are pretty much expendable. No one will weep unless they really like bridge bunnies, hair dressers, and maritime whalers. I swear, if the space whale idea pans out like I expect it to, "Thar she blows!" had better happen.
Well we already know there is a bigger giant robot in Macross Frontier fleet because of the opening so we already know Quarter is expendable.
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Old 2008-05-17, 03:39   Link #234
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Who cares about technological progression and weaponry... the show is about the conflict and drama which fall upon the main character and her friends. This is what truly makes that anime great, not the mecha and weaponry things.
I'd say the one episode with Lamina running around naked is what made that series worth watching, and nothing else.

Quote:
Uhm was it normal for Freedom owning entire fleets? You're free to think so, but many people won't agree.
Freedom didn't own entire fleets, and I'm getting really sick of people saying otherwise.

Quote:
Yes of course the death must be useful for something/someone, not wasted.
Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I happen to be one of those people who thinks character death is unnecessary in any story. Sometimes it's preferable, simply because a character is hated, but a series isn't automatically at a loss because no one dies in it. "Someone has to die!" is very irratiating to me, because I think it deflects away other issues or flaws in a story or series, or that people simply want it to happen because they think it'll make a series somehow more "mature" like having lots of cussing or sex scenes inserted in just for the patented R-rating.

No one has to die to make Frontier complete. Tension and dread I would say are important, but you don't have kill anyone to get that kind of reaction out of an audience. Actually doing so might generate apathy, and that would be a crying shame.
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Old 2008-05-17, 03:53   Link #235
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
I'd say the one episode with Lamina running around naked is what made that series worth watching, and nothing else.

Freedom didn't own entire fleets, and I'm getting really sick of people saying otherwise.
Well there is no much more to say about these matters: we've opposite opinions and they aren't going to change no matter how much we discuss them, so let's put these to rest for the sake of not going off-topic.

Quote:
Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I happen to be one of those people who thinks character death is unnecessary in any story. Sometimes it's preferable, simply because a character is hated, but a series isn't automatically at a loss because no one dies in it. "Someone has to die!" is very irratiating to me, because I think it deflects away other issues or flaws in a story or series, or that people simply want it to happen because they think it'll make a series somehow more "mature" like having lots of cussing or sex scenes inserted in just for the patented R-rating.

No one has to die to make Frontier complete. Tension and dread I would say are important, but you don't have kill anyone to get that kind of reaction out of an audience. Actually doing so might generate apathy, and that would be a crying shame.
Death is part of the life so it's only expected for it to be present in series even for the good guys, especially in the series not directed mainly to kids.
I think drama, and death of named characters in particular, is one of the main means to develop plots and making the characters growing. Of course the presence of deaths doesn't mean the show is good automatically: those deaths must be used smartly together with many other elements.
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Old 2008-05-17, 04:00   Link #236
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Death is part of the life so it's only expected for it to be present in series even for the good guys, especially in the series not directed mainly to kids.
Kids stories have death in them to, so there's not really an exception there.

Quote:
I think drama, and death of named characters in particular, is one of the main means to develop plots and making the characters growing. Of course the presence of deaths doesn't mean the show is good automatically: those deaths must be used smartly together with many other elements.
Save it for the finale and don't bring a character back wearing a mask is all I have left to say.
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Old 2008-05-17, 06:55   Link #237
Westlo
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Well we already know there is a bigger giant robot in Macross Frontier fleet because of the opening so we already know Quarter is expendable.
Actually unless the S.M.S crew leave their Quarter and take over Battle Frontier than the Battle Frontier with a crew of no names has a higher chance of going boom in the penultimate episode imo... especially if Leon is in it!
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Old 2008-05-17, 09:22   Link #238
Tak
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
I was talking about Macross Frontier ONLY, not about the various Macross OVAs.
Yeah, and I am telling ya, no worries, there will be important deaths. But if they kill the main characters, Quran or Michel, I am gonna flip. That is, if Kawamori pulled a Tomino on my ass, I AM GOING TO F*CKING PULL A 911 ON HIS STUDIO!!!

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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
True, but they're nameless characters. The only named character who died was
Spoiler:

I'm talking about the "good guys side" of course.
And Hayao Kanzaki, who was, well, vaporized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
To me, and many to many others as well, Soukou no Strain was one of the best sci-fi series ever aired: too bad you don't think the same.
A lot of people don't think the same. Nothing personal, but thats reality for ya. And why should I get all happy n' glee to expect some main character deaths. Thats the kind of thing only Tomino would pull off, and last time I checked, he had a history of mental issues. Obviously this man took his frustrations on his main characters. The 'Kill-em-All' Tomino is known for a reason. I am not as crazy as him, and I prefer to be alive, thank you.

My theory has been, if you work your ass off, fought countless battles, survived countless encounters, then only to die at the end (or becoming the only survivor)? Well, F*CK it, just kill yourself, makes it easier for everyone. That whole 'supreme sacrifice but I get nothin in return' isn't exactly my cup of tea.

As for Gundam Seed, they killed off Natarle Badgiruel damn you, and she was HOT! AGHHHHH! Well, on a side note, I didn't exect Nicole to die, either.

- Tak
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Old 2008-05-17, 09:47   Link #239
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
As for Gundam Seed, they killed off Natarle Badgiruel damn you, and she was HOT! AGHHHHH! Well, on a side note, I didn't exect Nicole to die, either.

- Tak
funny. i liked her too.
probably because she was a tsundere
(but never did get the chance to show off here dere side to her crush)
She died honourably though.


the only other character i liked was the cool doggy commander who lost an eye, with the GARlock cool attitude.


But anyway, do you think this VF-27 is part of a secret fraction working within NUNS space?

I have a funny feeling it's like some sort of group that has ties with big corporations doing shady things.

I think they are related to the "research" fleet that was attacked, i think they are continuing to push out their agents, and trying to discover the VAJRA technology.
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Old 2008-05-17, 12:01   Link #240
CaptGloval
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Ah! Why did that arrive to me just now? Of course, there would be factions! This would perfectly explain why we now have a New UN Government! Ooh, we might get an episode that explains how this came about and to explain Brera Sterne's existence.
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