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Old 2008-09-16, 04:18   Link #201
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
The fact they're one mind is irrelevant: they destroyed a potential danger to Frontier because Vajra are the one which attacked frontier first. The fact they're one mind only worsens Vajra's position because it means there aren't any faction within the Vajra but only one will.
And the Vajra were attacked by humans before. Sure, it wasn't Frontier itself. But what do they know? The humans don't try to distinguish between Vajras, why would Vajras try to distinguish between humans?


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I think you don't know what self defense mean...
Those Vajra would have grown and go straight to Frontier in order to attack it.
You don't know that. And even if true... So what? I'm not arguing the humans are wrong. I'm arguing the Vajra are no worse. They're both trying to defend themselves against aliens who don't seem interested in non genocidal conflict resolution.

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Well the Vajra are the enemy so what's so bad about exploiting them taking fold quartz from them? At least they're useful to something...
And to the Vajra, the humans are the enemy. What's so bad about shooting them?

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So far humans mainly defended themselves from the Vajra: the fact the Vajra have one mind only make all of them the same. They're all guilty of trying to massacre Frontier so they can all be annihilated without the faction problem.
The humans have attacked whenever they could. And the research fleet had Vajra corpses or captives, obviously before its destruction, so I have my doubts on the innocence of humans in the roots of that war.
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Old 2008-09-16, 04:40   Link #202
Paul Hausser
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It seems we have a major philosophical difference here. On one side, we have, in my opinion, an attempt to rationalize the Vajira and the reason of their behavior. On the other hand, there is that hardened look that takes "here and now" into consideration, the look many Frontier citizens might adopt. Still, based upon previous experiences with Macross and overall similarity of the situation to, for instance, the aforementioned work by Handelman, I'd say Anh_Minh makes a compelling argument.
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Old 2008-09-16, 07:35   Link #203
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And the Vajra were attacked by humans before. Sure, it wasn't Frontier itself. But what do they know? The humans don't try to distinguish between Vajras, why would Vajras try to distinguish between humans?
Frontier's military defended the colony 99% of the time and they went hunting down Vajra only one or two times throught the series, and anyway they were plainly justified because they avoided future attacks to Frontier. So don't make of an exception the rule...

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You don't know that. And even if true... So what? I'm not arguing the humans are wrong. I'm arguing the Vajra are no worse. They're both trying to defend themselves against aliens who don't seem interested in non genocidal conflict resolution.
I'm not saying the Vajra are worse: I'm only saying they have only one will so they're all guilty of what they did to Frontier. It's like all humantradis would be all like Grace. That's the big difference between humans and Vajra.

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And to the Vajra, the humans are the enemy. What's so bad about shooting them?
Frontier didn't start the hostilities: the fact Vajra doesn't know the meaning of individuality so they don't make any difference between the Research Fleet and Frontier is irrelevant. It's their own problem.

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The humans have attacked whenever they could. And the research fleet had Vajra corpses or captives, obviously before its destruction, so I have my doubts on the innocence of humans in the roots of that war.
I don't care about the Research Fleet: I'm talking about Frontier. If Vajra cannot understand the different it's their own problem and it isn't a justification by any way.
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Old 2008-09-16, 08:58   Link #204
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As far as I can tell, Anh_Minh is right here. If the Vajra can only think of humanity in the way they see themselves, there would be no reason for them take into account the differences between individual humans or fleets for that matter. We don't know what Grace/Macross Galaxy/117th Research Fleet did to them, so all of their actions up to that point may be either a response to what happened previously. Moreover, it's been shown that the Vajra have been unable to communicate with humans, so their taking in Ranka may be both an attempt to understand humanity as well as communicate with them.
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Old 2008-09-16, 09:06   Link #205
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As far as I can tell, Anh_Minh is right here. If the Vajra can only think of humanity in the way they see themselves, there would be no reason for them take into account the differences between individual humans or fleets for that matter. We don't know what Grace/Macross Galaxy/117th Research Fleet did to them, so all of their actions up to that point may be either a response to what happened previously. Moreover, it's been shown that the Vajra have been unable to communicate with humans, so their taking in Ranka may be both an attempt to understand humanity as well as communicate with them.
I know Anh-Minh is right when he tells about the Vajra being unable to understand the humantradis, in fact I said I don't care for what happened to the Research Fleet. But I added that this is irrelevant and it's by no way a justification to the irreparable damages the Vajra created to Frontier deliberately (lost lifes first of all). While Anh_Minh wants to justify the Vajra saying they're a collective so they don't understand, for me this makes Vajra position even worse: they are ALL responsible for Frontier deaths because they have only ONE will. Like I wrote before it's like humantradis were made by all persons Grace-like.
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Old 2008-09-16, 09:23   Link #206
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The point you're missing, ipernorris, is that, to the Vajra, that's probably very true. "Humantradis" as a whole is trying to subjugate them - so, they fight back. At least, that's exactly what the "good guys" are doing, as well. Isn't it?
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Old 2008-09-16, 09:35   Link #207
Anh_Minh
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Well, I take intent and knowledge/understanding into account before crying "evil!".

It's true that the Vajra attacked fleets that, on the whole, maybe wouldn't have done anything to them. (Actually, it is a maybe. The complicity between Leon and Grace, and Leon and Bilrer, makes at least possible, if not likely, that they'd have contrived an excuse to harvest Vajra guts anyway.) They certainly killed civilians, babies, and so on.

But, as I've pointed out, they may have a limited understanding of humanity and only sought to protect themselves. And on the whole, they're no worse than the humans. Sure, you could argue that their hivemind makes the humans' (sometimes preemptive) self-defense merely murderous rather than genocidal, but what if they'd had individualities? Do you think the humans would have given a damn? If Alto's any indication, they didn't before figuring it out.

So, in intent, they may be merely defending themselves against proven enemies. And they didn't locate the human's homeplanet, let alone attempt to exterminate all humans on it so they can live there.
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Old 2008-09-16, 10:06   Link #208
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
The point you're missing, ipernorris, is that, to the Vajra, that's probably very true. "Humantradis" as a whole is trying to subjugate them - so, they fight back. At least, that's exactly what the "good guys" are doing, as well. Isn't it?
The humantradis (I use this word for not writing evreytime Zentradi and Humans, they're an only thing now btw) want to take the Vajra's homeplanet because the attacks of the bugs made Frontier running out of resources so it's Vajra's fault again.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's true that the Vajra attacked fleets that, on the whole, maybe wouldn't have done anything to them. (Actually, it is a maybe. The complicity between Leon and Grace, and Leon and Bilrer, makes at least possible, if not likely, that they'd have contrived an excuse to harvest Vajra guts anyway.) They certainly killed civilians, babies, and so on.
You can't know what might have happened if Vajra wouldn't have attacked Frontier first: if we start to speculate then there wouldn't be no end to where we could go with the discussion. We only know that Vajra attacked Frontier first without any good reason: note that "taking Ranka back" or "not being able to understand humantradi's individuality" aren't good reasons at all.

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But, as I've pointed out, they may have a limited understanding of humanity and only sought to protect themselves. And on the whole, they're no worse than the humans. Sure, you could argue that their hivemind makes the humans' (sometimes preemptive) self-defense merely murderous rather than genocidal, but what if they'd had individualities? Do you think the humans would have given a damn? If Alto's any indication, they didn't before figuring it out.
If Vajra would have an individuality then faction would have formed, like happened with Zentradi and with the Protodeviln. Individuality, which means different wills, is the reason because of I don't have anything to say against how SDF Macross and Macross 7 ended, even if I didn't like how Gibernich (I don't know how to write it, sorry) ended the war saying "we now know how to create anima spiritia, bye bye".
In Vajra's case it's very different because they have no individuality thus no different wills: the will which decided to exterminate Frontier is one and only one.

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So, in intent, they may be merely defending themselves against proven enemies. And they didn't locate the human's homeplanet, let alone attempt to exterminate all humans on it so they can live there.
Vajra have easy life attacking isolated colonies, but they wouldn't stand a chance against ALL of the NUNS fleet. Not to mention that even now their colletive nature is a huge disadvantage because if their fold network is disrupted the single Vajra become useless because they have no brain, unlike other collectives such as the Borg.
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Old 2008-09-16, 10:15   Link #209
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
You can't know what might have happened if Vajra wouldn't have attacked Frontier first: if we start to speculate then there wouldn't be no end to where we could go with the discussion. We only know that Vajra attacked Frontier first without any good reason: note that "taking Ranka back" or "not being able to understand humantradi's individuality" aren't good reasons at all.
Hey, you insist that all Vajra babies will grow up to be human killers, I say that there are clues Leon and others would have contrived a war with the Vajra anyway. (Heck, maybe it's exactly what happened.)


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If Vajra would have an individuality then faction would have formed, like happened with Zentradi and with the Protodeviln. Individuality, which means different wills, is the reason because of I don't have anything to say against how SDF Macross and Macross 7 ended, even if I didn't like how Gibernich (I don't know how to write it, sorry) ended the war saying "we now know how to create anima spiritia, bye bye".
In Vajra's case it's very different because they have no individuality thus no different wills: the will which decided to exterminate Frontier is one and only one.
Not my point. You harp on the Vajra for not taking the time to distinguish between human factions and only attacking the "bad" ones. I'm pointing out the humans didn't try either.

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Vajra have easy life attacking isolated colonies, but they wouldn't stand a chance against ALL of the NUNS fleet. Not to mention that even now their colletive nature is a huge disadvantage because if their fold network is disrupted the single Vajra become useless because they have no brain, unlike other collectives such as the Borg.
Again, not my point. I'm just showing that the humans are even more aggressive than the Vajra. Sure, you're going to say the Vajra shot first... but that's really not certain.

I'll grant that taking the Vajra homeplanet is more of a result of, well, escalation of the conflict. But we can't know for sure who started the conflict in the first place.
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Old 2008-09-16, 10:22   Link #210
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
The humantradis (I use this word for not writing evreytime Zentradi and Humans, they're an only thing now btw) want to take the Vajra's homeplanet because the attacks of the bugs made Frontier running out of resources so it's Vajra's fault again.
Actually, we don't know that. And, if you remember, Frontier could be experiencing the attacks of the Vajra ever since the Colonization Fleet first messed with the bugs. So, again, they may be justified in attacking them. My point is: we don't really know all the pieces of the puzzle.

Blaming solely the Vajra for the escalation of the conflict seems a bit short-sighted, to me.
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Old 2008-09-16, 12:06   Link #211
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This reminds me of a few Japanese war related anime of the 1970s. You know the ones that end with the destruction (or near-destruction) of the Earth's enemies and but the hero is lementing that they didn't need to have fought because their goals were the same and justified...if only they could have worked together instead, speeches.

Kind of shows the point that in many wars, both sides are in the wrong to some degree and both sides are in the right to some degree. It is a matter of prepective. As seen in this debate, prepectives can cloud facts and make wars worse than they already are. When it turns from simple self-defense into pro-active "let's kill them all, on their lands" it gets ugly. The Vajra may be more complex than we know and have reasons that we don't know yet. Grace and Leon may have more reasons than we know of. The rest of Frontier's population is basically in the crossfire. There has to be a reason for the war. What that reason is will usually solve the problem, or at least give cause to show if one side or the other is justified in its responce.

However the creator of this series may take us in a different direction than we went 25 years ago. Instead of the power of song defeating the enemy by making them friends, it causes them to win (by defeating the humans)..or is used to destroy the enemy in total leaving nothing left to show for it. The planet is destroyed...Frontier gains nothing from this war but bodies and wreckage. Showing the folly of war doesn't sound like the show's premise, but it is possible as a backdrop for the love triangle that dies because of it.

The only thing that would save Frontier at that point would be aid from another colony...finding a new world suddenly....folding back to Earth....or they actually fail.
Or they find the lost first colony ship to bring things full circle.
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Old 2008-09-16, 12:09   Link #212
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Hey, you insist that all Vajra babies will grow up to be human killers, I say that there are clues Leon and others would have contrived a war with the Vajra anyway. (Heck, maybe it's exactly what happened.)
Yeah I insist because the Vajra are all the same: they have only ONE will... this is what being a collective means! So I'm not having a prejudice against the Vajra here, because if they're one (and the anime states so and Leon wouldn't have a reason to lie about Vajra's details at this point) and it's a fact.

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Not my point. You harp on the Vajra for not taking the time to distinguish between human factions and only attacking the "bad" ones. I'm pointing out the humans didn't try either.
You aren't fair at all toward humantradis here: I mean 99% of the time they made DEFENSIVE fights so they only killed Vajra who were a threat.

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Again, not my point. I'm just showing that the humans are even more aggressive than the Vajra. Sure, you're going to say the Vajra shot first... but that's really not certain.
Again with this "who shot first" thing? I said it isn't relevant anymore: as far as we know Frontier didn't know anything about Vajra before they attacked the colony. The fact Vajra doesn't know about individuality isn't a justification as well.

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I'll grant that taking the Vajra homeplanet is more of a result of, well, escalation of the conflict. But we can't know for sure who started the conflict in the first place.
Again: this isn't relevant anymore. Vajra inflicted immense damages to Frontier while this colony didn't do anything to them: the fact someone another did some bad things to them (even if we haven't enough information about this) IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION either.

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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Actually, we don't know that. And, if you remember, Frontier could be experiencing the attacks of the Vajra ever since the Colonization Fleet first messed with the bugs. So, again, they may be justified in attacking them. My point is: we don't really know all the pieces of the puzzle.

Blaming solely the Vajra for the escalation of the conflict seems a bit short-sighted, to me.
That's speculation. We only know that the Research Fleet was annihilated by the Vajra and after that we don't know anything, a part from the fact we're thrown right in the attack Vajra are making on the humans. As far as we know the Research Fleet was the only human fleet which made contact with the Vajra before Frontier and Galaxy.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The rest of Frontier's population is basically in the crossfire. There has to be a reason for the war. What that reason is will usually solve the problem, or at least give cause to show if one side or the other is justified in its responce.
We have already a reason for the war: Grace said, answring mentally to Leon's question "why do we have to suffer so much because of Vajra?", that the Vajra are attacking because human's dream of colonizing planet around the galaxy is an obstacle. In other words: Vajra don't want anybody in their own region of space.
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Old 2008-09-16, 12:11   Link #213
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Or they find the lost first colony ship to bring things full circle.
Now, they finding Megaroad 01 or whatever remains of it, would be just AWESOME.

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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
That's speculation.
Right. As opposed to your arguments, which are all based solely on fact, right?
The fact that we've only been shown the Vajra's attack on the Research Fleet doesn't mean that was the only point of contact. And it doesn't change the very real possibility that they, as a species, are only responding to a previous attack. Just like you defend the populace of Frontier to continue doing, as well. Can't you see this?

And who says you need justification for war? Most of the time, you don't even need a good enough motive...
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Old 2008-09-16, 12:43   Link #214
Ithekro
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If the reason for the Vijra fighitng the humans is because the humans are invading their territory...and the humans know this (how?), then wouldn't going around that region be in order? Or at least attempting to go through that space in the quickest possible fashion rather than drag the fleet in and slowly ponder around looking for a place to settle? Perhaps at one time the Vajra were more open to tresspassers and settlers, but now they aren't. Probably because of abuse of their space and/or populations by the Research Fleet (or others if any other human fleets have been in this region before Frontier arrives).

In that light, what the Vajra are doing is border patrol and then attempting to repel an invader...about the same as a human nation would do with a massive military/colonial force wondering onto your continent/country. Imagine if the British arrived someplace right after the First World War with a huge convoy of their people supported by part of the Royal Navy arriving in your territorial waters and didn't communicate with you at all as to what they were doing. Most nations would challenge a force entering their territory. If the Royal Navy destroyed the challengers and then the fleet continues onwards into your harbors, then moves onto a huge train a trucks and cars with tanks and planes escorting them across your country...and they still haven't said a word...wouldn't you try to repel the invaders?
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Old 2008-09-16, 13:42   Link #215
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Yeah I insist because the Vajra are all the same: they have only ONE will... this is what being a collective means! So I'm not having a prejudice against the Vajra here, because if they're one (and the anime states so and Leon wouldn't have a reason to lie about Vajra's details at this point) and it's a fact.
But the humans didn't know that when they made the decision to clean out nests. As I said, I'm also looking at intents. And the humans never had the intent to distinguish between Vajras, whether there was a distinction to be made or not. Like you, they just assumed that all Vajra would be their enemies. In the end, it turned out that they were right because there was, in fact, only one Vajra. But if they were right, it was by accident!

Also, the Vajra may have speculated that the humans would be their enemies. And hey, guess what? They were right too.

So maybe, in both case, there was a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on. But hey, that's war.

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You aren't fair at all toward humantradis here: I mean 99% of the time they made DEFENSIVE fights so they only killed Vajra who were a threat.
And they attacked 100% of the time they could.

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Again with this "who shot first" thing? I said it isn't relevant anymore: as far as we know Frontier didn't know anything about Vajra before they attacked the colony. The fact Vajra doesn't know about individuality isn't a justification as well.
Yeah, and as far as we know, the Vajra didn't know anything about the humans before the latter decided to dissect them.

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Again: this isn't relevant anymore. Vajra inflicted immense damages to Frontier while this colony didn't do anything to them: the fact someone another did some bad things to them (even if we haven't enough information about this) IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION either.
It actually is. Most of the people who get killed in wars haven't personally done anything to the guys who pull the triggers. Even if they're soldiers... You basically have soldiers on one side, soldiers with different uniforms on the other, they haven't done anything to each other, they've never even met, but they still gleefully kill each other in the name of their homeland's defense - and that's in the good cases.

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That's speculation. We only know that the Research Fleet was annihilated by the Vajra and after that we don't know anything, a part from the fact we're thrown right in the attack Vajra are making on the humans. As far as we know the Research Fleet was the only human fleet which made contact with the Vajra before Frontier and Galaxy.
Yes, it is speculation. Which is why I use a lot of "may". Nevertheless, one fleet would be quite enough to piss off the Vajra.

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We have already a reason for the war: Grace said, answring mentally to Leon's question "why do we have to suffer so much because of Vajra?", that the Vajra are attacking because human's dream of colonizing planet around the galaxy is an obstacle. In other words: Vajra don't want anybody in their own region of space.
Especially people who dissect them for fun and profit. Can't imagine why.
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Old 2008-09-16, 13:51   Link #216
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Right. As opposed to your arguments, which are all based solely on fact, right?
I only mentioned phrases stated by the characters in the series... in particular regarding Vajra's purpose and the fact they have only one mind thus one will.
For the rest:

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The fact that we've only been shown the Vajra's attack on the Research Fleet doesn't mean that was the only point of contact. And it doesn't change the very real possibility that they, as a species, are only responding to a previous attack. Just like you defend the populace of Frontier to continue doing, as well. Can't you see this?

And who says you need justification for war? Most of the time, you don't even need a good enough motive...
We know only what has been shown and the only contact between humantradis and Vajra, before Macross Frontier timeline, has been with the Research Fleet. The rest is speculation. Regarding the justification issue: I meant to say only that Frontier didn't do anything to Vajra, but they attacked it with the purpose of annihilating them, otherwise they wouldn't have attacked civil areas.
If Frontier, like the Research Fleet probably did, messed up with Vajra then it would have been another story.
People have said that Vajra may view the humantradis as an enemy because of the Research Fleet: it may be, but this isn't a good excuse for killing millions of people who didn't do anything to you.


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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If the reason for the Vijra fighitng the humans is because the humans are invading their territory...and the humans know this (how?), then wouldn't going around that region be in order? Or at least attempting to go through that space in the quickest possible fashion rather than drag the fleet in and slowly ponder around looking for a place to settle? Perhaps at one time the Vajra were more open to tresspassers and settlers, but now they aren't. Probably because of abuse of their space and/or populations by the Research Fleet (or others if any other human fleets have been in this region before Frontier arrives).
Grace knows about Vajra's true purposes, but the rest of humanity does not most likely.

Quote:
In that light, what the Vajra are doing is border patrol and then attempting to repel an invader...about the same as a human nation would do with a massive military/colonial force wondering onto your continent/country. Imagine if the British arrived someplace right after the First World War with a huge convoy of their people supported by part of the Royal Navy arriving in your territorial waters and didn't communicate with you at all as to what they were doing. Most nations would challenge a force entering their territory. If the Royal Navy destroyed the challengers and then the fleet continues onwards into your harbors, then moves onto a huge train a trucks and cars with tanks and planes escorting them across your country...and they still haven't said a word...wouldn't you try to repel the invaders?
Uhm there is a difference between wanting to repel and wanting to exterminate: this difference can be seen in the combat field very clearly by the way a faction fights. Vajra clearly fought in order to exterminate Frontier, not simply repel it.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But the humans didn't know that when they made the decision to clean out nests. As I said, I'm also looking at intents. And the humans never had the intent to distinguish between Vajras, whether there was a distinction to be made or not. Like you, they just assumed that all Vajra would be their enemies. In the end, it turned out that they were right because there was, in fact, only one Vajra. But if they were right, it was by accident!
There is active defense too: when they burnt the nests it was short after they suffered a huge attack from the Vajra. It's not like they started burning down Vajra's nests out of the blue.


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Also, the Vajra may have speculated that the humans would be their enemies. And hey, guess what? They were right too.
So maybe, in both case, there was a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on. But hey, that's war.
Wrong speculation. Humans aren't all the same, evreyone has his own thought. If Vajra cannot understand this it's their own problem and doesn't excuse them from the millions of deaths.

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Yeah, and as far as we know, the Vajra didn't know anything about the humans before the latter decided to dissect them.
What the Research Fleet did it's not Frontier's business.

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Especially people who dissect them for fun and profit. Can't imagine why.
I think we think the same regarding the Research Fleet: they bite the dust and nobody is crying for them. I think we only have different POV regarding Frontier and its right to defense itself even by annihilating the Vajra.

Last edited by ipernorris; 2008-09-16 at 14:05.
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Old 2008-09-16, 14:04   Link #217
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Uhm there is a difference between wanting to repel and wanting to exterminate: this difference can be seen in the combat field very clearly by the way a faction fights. Vajra clearly fought in order to exterminate Frontier, not simply repel it.
Sure, and Frontier was such a good sport about it, eh?
Sorry, not buying your double standards on this issue. Both sides have their reasons, maybe one side is more justified than the other (but we don't really know that, yet) like most conflicts that were ever depicted in fiction (and in reality, as well).
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Old 2008-09-16, 14:18   Link #218
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I don't think it's clear at all that the Vajra attacked Frontier with the goal of annihilation. Don't forget that each red Vajra was equipped with an anti-capital ship beam weapon. This means that during each of the attacks, the Vajra could have attempted to destroy the main Frontier colony ship. If the Vajra were trying to destroy Frontier at the start, when they were unprepared and unshielded, they could easily have won.

However, for the first few episodes, the Vajra reserved their weapons exclusively for Frontier support warships. The attack in the first episode, for example, was clearly to establish contact with Ranka Lee. The Vajra battlecruiser too engaged only the Galaxy warships. It wasn't that the Vajra didn't know the location of Frontier, but rather that they didn't attack civilian targets. (Even though during this time Frontier was busy taking out Vajra hives.) It was only with the deployment of the Dimension Eater, that the Vajra actually began to fire on Island-1 - the attack came immediately afterwards, showing that the Vajra was in fact tolerating Frontier's presence until then. We have no telling how important Galia 4 was to them, or what the bomb would feel to fold sensitive creatures. (Think about how that looked to the Vajra: they let the humantradis settle on a planet with their own colony on it, left them alone for a while. Then a couple of fighters arrive from Frontier. They let them explore, let them even meet their queen. And then the humans attack within the chamber of the queen, kidnapping Ranka who had returned to them, a fold bomb destroys the planet, and their queen launches a retaliatory attack and ends up dead, because in a moment of weakness they listened to Ranka's song and thought it was a peace offer.) No matter what the Research Fleet did, the humans did shoot first in the series itself.

I'm also not very convinced that the Vajra don't have individual minds - note the different behaviour from the other Vajra Ai-chan exhibits, and also the ability of Vajra to behave normally at the start of ep 22 even when Luca had them fold-jammed from the rest of the collective.

Last edited by FhnuZoag; 2008-09-16 at 15:24.
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Old 2008-09-16, 16:03   Link #219
Evangelion Xgouki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Again with this "who shot first" thing? I said it isn't relevant anymore: as far as we know Frontier didn't know anything about Vajra before they attacked the colony. The fact Vajra doesn't know about individuality isn't a justification as well.
Isn't that untrue in that during he first attack on the Frontier fleet President Glass called the SMS and stated that "they're here" and that the SMS had some knowledge of the Vajra before engaging them in combat? They might not have known much, but they knew of their existence as well as what to call them (Vajra).

Also Grace stated at a point to Leon that the plan to get the Vajra to attack the Frontier went well, meaning that they did something before the start of the series to cause the Vajra to become hostile towards the 25th colonization fleet if not all the fleets. While it doesn't 100% prove who pissed who off first, it does show that the hostility of the Vajra to the Frontier fleet in particular is the result of human action(s).
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Old 2008-09-16, 16:19   Link #220
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Sure, and Frontier was such a good sport about it, eh?
Sorry, not buying your double standards on this issue. Both sides have their reasons, maybe one side is more justified than the other (but we don't really know that, yet) like most conflicts that were ever depicted in fiction (and in reality, as well).
Indeed. And if the humans were somehow more justified, it was by accident rather than by design.

I'm not really intent on throwing the stone at anyone. The way I see it, most people involved may have acted simply out of ignorance and self-preservation instinct. Even the research fleet: maybe they mistook the Vajra for mere animals and didn't imagine the consequences of harming a few of them for experiments.

Where I think Ipernorris is using double standards is when he demands that the Vajra be more considerate than the humans. That they make more of an effort to understand them and sort the good from the bad than the humans ever made for the Vajra. Sure, a posteriori, you can say that the humans were right to think the Vajra were all the same. But let's be honest, here. The humans didn't really care. Even before knowing about the hivemind, they acted as if all the Vajra were the same.

And as for the Vajra - it may not even have occurred to them in the first place that the humans weren't. I can't really blame them for not making that breakthrough.



Imagine a guy shoots in the air, not aiming at anything. Just to be festive. Three kilometers away, his bullet hits a random passer-by. Fatally.

Now, compare with another guy who shoots in the air, not knowing where it'll fall either. Only in his case, it hits an armed robber before he can kill someone.

Is the first guy a murderer? The second a hero? No, they're both idiots who endangered the people around them by playing with firearms. They both acted for the same reasons, only the outcome changed - because of chance, not anything they did.

To me, the Vajra and humans are a bit the same. With the difference that dispelling their ignorance isn't as simple a matter as taking gun safety courses.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2008-09-16 at 17:51.
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