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Old 2008-05-07, 14:03   Link #21
james0246
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
You can admire an ennemy and yet never trust him and refuse to see him as a real ally.
The Uchiha clan didn't have to be democratic for this to happen, if the whole clan wants something but its leader keeps doing the opposite he is likely not to stay in position for long. In fact it's what happened when Madara finally took a stand against Hashirama against the will of his clan.
LOL, I guess, as a US citizen, I have simply become to use to having a leader that does whatever they want .

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I think Shodai was a lot like Naruto in the sense he was the kind of man that everyone wanted to follow eventually (haha I knew I wasn't off topic ). Madara was a powerful warrior but he lost the heart of his clan to Hashirama.
LOL, to true. I just read the raw (that we currently have), and that seems to be what happend...which is a little wierd. What did Madara do to lose his followers () and clansmen. It can't just be his paranoia over Shodai, or just Shodai being as good guy, or at least I hope that is not all of the problem, otherwise Madara will look like a bit of a dick that was simply complaining because his clan was settling down (whihc it seems like he is doing).

Hopefully next chapter we will get some glimps as to what Madara wants to do with the Bijuu.
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Old 2008-05-07, 14:04   Link #22
Last of the Uchihas
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All Madara wanted was for the Uchiha clan to maintain its power and his own clan sold him out, which is why he refers to those Uchiha as Senju dogs, because he already foreseen what would become of the Uchiha clan by being in command of someone else. This was something he would not allowed, so he rebelled. I'm glad he helped killed off the clan for betraying him, not even mentioning, setting them up for their destruction. What better way to get revenge by obliterating the Senju clan, and place the blame on the Uchihas, thus making their life miserable until he finally helped put an end to their lives. I don't know about you guys, but i feel sympathy for Madara, and that makes me wonder, how fucking awesome would be a team up between Madara and Sasuke, although Sasuke vowed to kill Madara too for the death of his family. So not only does Sasuke has a beef against Madara but Konoha too. hmmm. Madara might be omitting a couple of things like him being the one responsible of summoning Kyuubi that day, as backed up by Kyuubi and Jiraiya and about his brother willingly giving his life for his brother's pursue of power and framing the Uchihas, but basically he has telling the whole truth, he even backed Sandaime for being against the mistreatment of the Uchihas.

Basically, the formation of the leaf Village was only possible for one of the two strongest clan to submit to the other, even when they were on equal standing in terms of powers, since they basically are the different sides of the same coin.

But something i find very fascinating is that only an Uchiha have the tendency of degrading their own, but at the same time, praising their own.

This is seen with Itachi calling the Uchiha clan pathetic, but at the same time calling them the strongest and feared clan, and seen again with he called Madara a Invincible Immortal to a pathetic shell of his formal self. To Madara calling the Uchiha clan dogs of the Senju to the Uchihas being on equal footing as the Senjus.
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Old 2008-05-07, 14:13   Link #23
james0246
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^Do you really consider the Uchiha clan choosing peace over war a betrayal? Or the Uchiha clan choosing a non-Uchiha to govern over the entire village (remember, the Kage have no real say in clan politics, otherwise the Hyuuga would undoubtedly not be allowed to use the Cage Seal) as a betrayal? Rather, it seems like Madara wanted to fight, but the world was moving into a time of peace, so now he is trying to create war and conflict to get back to the good ol' days (at least that is how I read his story...I fully admit that by next chapter this viewpoint could be completewly destroyed.)
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Old 2008-05-07, 14:13   Link #24
TwilightHack
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Thing is, you don't know who's telling the complete truth in this thing...

We've two conflicting stories going on and who can we rely on? Itachi or Madara?
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Old 2008-05-07, 14:37   Link #25
Last of the Uchihas
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^Do you really consider the Uchiha clan choosing peace over war a betrayal?
you don't get it, it was not about peace or war, its about equal standing in powers, after all, they agreed to a cease fire, not for one to become the bitch of the other as Madara implies. He knew the clan would lose its powers by being appointing a Senju member as their leader, which just happen to be the Uchiha rival.

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Or the Uchiha clan choosing a non-Uchiha to govern over the entire village (remember, the Kage have no real say in clan politics, otherwise the Hyuuga would undoubtedly not be allowed to use the Cage Seal) as a betrayal? Rather, it seems like Madara wanted to fight, but the world was moving into a time of peace, so now he is trying to create war and conflict to get back to the good ol' days (at least that is how I read his story...I fully admit that by next chapter this viewpoint could be completewly destroyed.)
You don't get it. By Harashima becoming Hokage, the Senju clan, stole the Uchiha power, because they were the ones who ruled, not both. Not only that, but the power would be passed down to other senju members, like it happen to Nidaime and Godaime. In fact, the only reason we have two non senju members as Hokages was because the Senju clan was obliterated, and Tsunade was too little and weak to rule as Hokage.
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Old 2008-05-07, 14:55   Link #26
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*laughs* All you Uchiha fans thought so highly of that clan, as if they were so noble. How appropriate it is that such power-mongering "elites" would be so corrupt. If Sasuke was Jesus, Itachi is his John The Baptist.
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Old 2008-05-07, 15:04   Link #27
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*laughs* All you Uchiha fans thought so highly of that clan, as if they were so noble. How appropriate it is that such power-mongering "elites" would be so corrupt. If Sasuke was Jesus, Itachi is his John The Baptist.
ninja aren't nobles, not even Sandaime and Minato
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Old 2008-05-07, 15:09   Link #28
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Looks like my theory about the Uchihas planning a coup was true(?) afterall. It does help explain somethings and officially closes some gaps. We now have a better picture of why Madara is so bitter against Konoha as well, with his own clan betraying him and his high beliefs of the Uchihas.
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Old 2008-05-07, 15:22   Link #29
james0246
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Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas View Post
You don't get it. By Harashima becoming Hokage, the Senju clan, stole the Uchiha power, because they were the ones who ruled, not both. Not only that, but the power would be passed down to other senju members, like it happen to Nidaime and Godaime. In fact, the only reason we have two non senju members as Hokages was because the Senju clan was obliterated, and Tsunade was too little and weak to rule as Hokage.
I guess I don't get it . As TwilightHack, and others, has said, we are only getting one side of the story that you freely admit has many incidents left out. You can not simply say that Madara was correct just yet, though I will completely admit that if everything he says is true (especially in regards to the Senjuu treating or otherwise viewing the Uchiha's as Servents), then you are probably correct in your sympathetic assumptions (Though the fact that Madara plays up his duties as a big brother or his duties as an Avenger greatly undermine any true belief on my part that he is telling the full truth or much of the truth).

---

edit: You got to love how Kishimoto completely glosses over the Madara v. Hashirama fight.

Last edited by james0246; 2008-05-07 at 15:42.
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Old 2008-05-07, 15:31   Link #30
Last of the Uchihas
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I guess I don't get it . As TwilightHack, and others, has said, we are only getting one side of the story that you freely admit has many incidents left out. You can not simply say that Madara was correct just yet, though I will completely admit that if everything he says is true (especially in regards to the Senjuu treating or otherwise viewing the Uchiha's as Dogs/Servents), then you are probably correct in your sympathetic assumptions (Though the fact that Madara plays up his duties as a big brother or his duties as an Avenger greatly undermine any true belief on my part that he is telling the full truth or much of the truth).
You must have misread something. They didn't treat them or view them like dogs, Madara is the one viewing them as dogs, for not opposing them when Madara did. The fact that the Senju clan took prevention methods, clearly implies they were afraid of the Uchiha clan rebelling, especially since they had the same equal power as the senju as stated in the manga.



---
Quote:

edit: You got to love how Kishimoto completely glosses over the Madara v. Hashirama fight.

that double page was the best page in the whole manga.
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Old 2008-05-07, 15:41   Link #31
james0246
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Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas View Post
You must have misread something. They didn't treat them or view them like dogs, Madara is the one viewing them as dogs, for not opposing them when Madara did. The fact that the Senju clan took prevention methods, clearly implies they were afraid of the Uchiha clan rebelling, especially since they had the same equal power as the senju as stated in the manga.
I think you misunderstood, so let me clarify, I was talking about the Senjuu clan actually mistreating or otherwise lording over another clan. If it is just Madara considering them Dogs, then that does not mean much (i.e. he has a vendetta against the clans, so of course he would call them dogs). But, if the Senjuu clan actually did lord over the Uchiha clan, then what Madara is saying has significantly more impact than the clan simply choosing the Senjuu's over Madara.

(you have to admit (actually, knowing you, probably not ), Madara trying to make himself seem the victim or a tragic figure (especially since he could be responsible for the death of both clans) is a little...comic book villian-ish.)

---


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that double page was the best page in the whole manga.
I am not disagreeing with that, but it completely glosses over the entire fight. How did he win? How did Madara lose (especially since they were considered more or less equal in their previous battles)? I guess we will never know...or at least will not find out until someone uses the exact same way to defeat Madara again.
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Old 2008-05-07, 15:56   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Last of the Uchihas View Post
You must have misread something. They didn't treat them or view them like dogs, Madara is the one viewing them as dogs, for not opposing them when Madara did. The fact that the Senju clan took prevention methods, clearly implies they were afraid of the Uchiha clan rebelling, especially since they had the same equal power as the senju as stated in the manga.
Don't forget that this is all Madara's point of view, the same point of view that makes him see the Uchiha as subordinates because they were willing to be part of the village can just as well make him see Nidaime trusting the Uchiha with the security of village as a cunning plot even if it wasn't at the time.

Let's be realist here, Madara isn't sellling himself to Sasuke as an avenger whose little brother sacrificed his eyes/life for his sake without an agenda in mind.

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*laughs* All you Uchiha fans thought so highly of that clan, as if they were so noble. How appropriate it is that such power-mongering "elites" would be so corrupt.
What you say is rather funny considering that according to Madara's story the Uchiha choose peace and willingly decided to be part of Konoha under someone who was previously their sole real enemy against the will of their own leader they believed to be the power-mongering one.
The generation of Uchiha that apparently finally choose to rebel only did so after being framed and segregated for a crime they didn't commit.
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:11   Link #33
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I'm very confused, is the Senju clan essentially all of Konoha, subtracting the Uchiha and Hyuga clans?
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:15   Link #34
Hunter
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We don't know what the Senju clan has become yet.
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:17   Link #35
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What you say is rather funny considering that according to Madara's story the Uchiha choose peace and willingly decided to be part of Konoha under someone who was previously their sole real enemy against the will of their own leader they believed to be the power-mongering one. The generation of Uchiha that apparently finally choose to rebel only did so after being framed and segregated for a crime they didn't commit.
I was referring to the generation attempting the coup. So you're saying its confirmed that they didn't cause the last Kyuubi invasion? That they didn't want to take the heat anymore for something they weren't responsible for? I thought you said it was more of Madara giving his own particular views of the truth behind the events.
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ninja aren't nobles, not even Sandaime and Minato
And I said "noble", not "nobles".
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:23   Link #36
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We don't know what the Senju clan has become yet.
I figure that my assumption is at least partially true, otherwise, I would think that it would be general knowledge that the most important clan in the village was slaughtered or disappeared in the same fashion as the Uchiha. Moreover, is this not somewhat backed-up by evidence? Isn't it common knowledge that the power of the First Hokage was unique, and that his own brother had different powers, and that his descendant, the Fifth Hokage, also possesses different powers? (Note: If this is the case, I would think that the Senju are at least more versatile than the Uchiha, since the breath of their power is not limited to one particular repertoire.)
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:26   Link #37
Hunter
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I was referring to the generation attempting the coup. So you're saying its confirmed that they didn't cause the last Kyuubi invasion? That they didn't want to take the heat anymore for something they weren't responsible for? I thought you said it was more of Madara giving his own particular views of the truth behind the events.
Perhaps you should pay a little more attention, I said "according to Madara's story".
You are the one using Madara's story to say they were corrupted power-mongering "elites" whereas Madara is saying something else.
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:29   Link #38
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Perhaps you should pay a little more attention, I said "according to Madara's story".
You are the one using Madara's story to say they were corrupted power-mongering "elites" whereas Madara is saying something else.
But you defend them on the same token. So I guess this is a pointless debate if we're both going to be hypocrites.
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:35   Link #39
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Don't try to pass on me what you were doing, what Madara said may be true, false or a bit of both but this has nothing to do with my point to begin with.
This generation of Uchiha could have been full of evil and insane people wanting to whipe out the rest of the world for all I care but that's not what Madara said and what he said was the supposed basis of your comment.
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Old 2008-05-07, 16:43   Link #40
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Oh I see, so because his story could be as honest as a united states president's, my take on the "confirmed" spoiler you detailed must mean i'm assuming things too quickly when you saw fit to retort my apathetic comments about a potential plot revelation, even though as you say it could very well be anything for all you care. Gotcha.

Well that's my post for this week. For fear I may bait the shark on my ass again i'll see you all next time.
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