AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-05-17, 12:44   Link #81
felix
sleepyhead
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And I've never heard of anyone who reads whole paragraphs, or even long sentences, without reading the words they're made of.
Reading = Understanding
Reading =/= <remember meaning of word X>

In my previous post I've used "read" with the meaning of "visualizing the idea" not "comprehending the words". I <presumed> you are not reading a foreign language and do not require some form of dictionary when reading it, with words being at most infrequent but not unknown . I also presumed nobody would assume the later meaning of reading because there are so many exceptions in almost all languages for the equation implied by it:
<meaning of word 01> + <meaning of word 02> + <meaning of word 03> = <meaning of sentence>
...a simple example being metaphors and expressions. But even everyday talk has so many variations for each word's meaning. (oh how good would computerized translations be if you could just go 1+1 = 2 with language)


Presuming my above assumption of what you understood is wrong...

If you read by recognition of words, skip connectors and form the cumulative meaning from the meaning of each word, then if I were to randomly interswitch words in a sentence or entire paragraph is it still as easy for you to read it then a well organized one? (if it is how you say, you don't appear to stand to loose anything if I do that trick)

ps I don't remember syllables having meaning, or maybe you know something I don't. Please tell me this trick of yours of telling the meaning of words by use of meaningless letter combinations.
felix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-17, 12:54   Link #82
Kinny Riddle
Gone for Good
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Due to complaints that the thread is heading in a direction where people are just posting their reading speed result and bragging about it, which is certainly NOT my intention when making this thread, I've removed the link to that speed reading test.

Please continue with a more intellectual discussion. And please do cut out the belligerence. No need to get all worked up over how people think about reading speeds, no?
__________________
哀莫大於心死。
我對這裡的管理員的霸道與毫無準則的執法行為感到徹底失望﹗

It was fun while it lasted.
Kinny Riddle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-17, 13:17   Link #83
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
Then we really have no arguments then; since, though I can't speak for Anh Minh, I'm pretty sure he and I are talking about the technical level of reading -- and you were dispute his statement that when we read, we read words (which, as I demonstrated, is quite correct, at least for my and most people's case). If you're simply arguing on the level of understanding, then I don't think Anh Minh is really challenging you on that.

I don't either, since I know what you mean quite well. I have tried, from time to time, when in a rush, to try and read very quickly -- only to fail to fully process the text and is forced to go back and reread it anyway.

To expand it in technical examples like I did in my last post:

"Irenicus is handsome!" is the sentence (pfft). What goes on as I process from Irenicus, to is, to handsome? There are reaction times, short as they maybe, between the words as I read. It seems that if I try and force myself through hurriedly faster than my natural reaction time, then my ability to understand the text suffers. One of the ways to speed read is probably to shorten this reaction time without losing context, by mentally training specifically for it.

During the reaction time, what goes on in the reader's mind as he or she read this sentence is mostly subconscious, but to spell it out, it'd likely go like this:

"Irenicus -- an unfamiliar word, a username; what does it mean though?[the few forum regulars who notice me don't need to do this and would take less time processing it, since they already make connections that Irenicus = that idiot at asuki ] -- is -- a verb indicating a condition [transition word familiar to all readers of English, the processing is very very quick and probably entirely subconscious] -- handsome! -- word meaning he's cute; oh, and exclamation mark."

But there's also another step, or a bunch of steps, and they're very important and take a varying amount of time, from very short to much longer than the actual reading process itself -- here is what I think separates a full-fledged understanding with a simple one, as the reader tries to connect this shallow level of understanding (only the meaning is grasped) to create a context. One reader might think, anywhere between that process above or after -- most probably after, as sentence is necessary to establish the context -- on the references that the word "Irenicus" carry*. Another might think of my past behavior as a user. Yet another would ponder on the arrogance of calling oneself handsome, and might even connect this with some real-life airhead who thinks himself handsome, etc. And virtually all readers who are not crashing through my post would take the time to establish the context of this sentence within the paragraph. All these lines of thought are not mutually exclusive of course, and they aren't entirely explicitly thought out either.

One speed reading technique as such (since this is a thread about speed reading after all) would be to trying and highly compress this free-form thought process into something coherent and shorter, while preserving the core of creating a context and memorizing short-term, so that the reader can take on larger blocks of texts all at once and then reprocess it as a whole later.

Ex: reading a huge philosophical text by some boring philosopher (the best philosophers are not necessarily always the best writers ) can be exhausting when you need to stop at every sentence to perceive a context. A speed reader using this technique can perhaps read the whole paragraph quickly, then reprocess it and come to the same understanding as people like me who just reads naturally as such.

*As a side note, it's a name of the villain character in the Best Game Eve-, I mean Western RPG game Baldur's Gate II.
Irenicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-17, 13:37   Link #84
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Reading = Understanding
Reading =/= <remember meaning of word X>

In my previous post I've used "read" with the meaning of "visualizing the idea" not "comprehending the words". I <presumed> you are not reading a foreign language and do not require some form of dictionary when reading it, with words being at most infrequent but not unknown . I also presumed nobody would assume the later meaning of reading because there are so many exceptions in almost all languages for the equation implied by it:
<meaning of word 01> + <meaning of word 02> + <meaning of word 03> = <meaning of sentence>
...a simple example being metaphors and expressions. But even everyday talk has so many variations for each word's meaning. (oh how good would computerized translations be if you could just go 1+1 = 2 with language)


Presuming my above assumption of what you understood is wrong...

If you read by recognition of words, skip connectors and form the cumulative meaning from the meaning of each word, then if I were to randomly interswitch words in a sentence or entire paragraph is it still as easy for you to read it then a well organized one? (if it is how you say, you don't appear to stand to loose anything if I do that trick)

ps I don't remember syllables having meaning, or maybe you know something I don't. Please tell me this trick of yours of telling the meaning of words by use of meaningless letter combinations.
To me, reading is the translation of visual signs into ideas, using a convention (language).

I have no idea what you think I meant. Maybe you'd care to explain it better? In particular, I'd like to know how you inferred I meant structure didn't matter.

My point was, the process of "reading" has several components. One of them is to understand what words are used. While it's often unnecessary to catch every word to understand a text, you must still get a few. And that process can be more or less fast depending on, well, your skill as a reader and your familiarity with the vocabulary.

A bad reader will use his finger to keep track of what letter he's at, make great efforts to remember what sound a string of letters corresponds to, subvocalize, and maybe other things I can't think of right now.

A good one, unfamiliar with the word, will most probably - unless he's unfamiliar with the language as well - catch whole syllables at a glance. As you said, we read with our eyes and brains. Our brains generally don't bother to decode each letter to form a word.

A good reader, familiar with the word, will just look at the general shape of the word, the context, and "guess" what the word is. Well, "look at" is misleading. I'm not talking about a conscious choice to not look at the letter, but of what goes on when we just read, naturally.

Of course, many things occur even after the word is recognized. It's integrated within a sentence, its meaning - out of the several meanings it may have - is chosen and so on. But, along the way, words have to be recognized. And an increase in speed in that particular step of the process - in any step, really - means an increase in speed in the overall speed of your "reading".

Familiarity brings speed. That's why the more your read, the faster you read. You train your brain to recognize more words faster.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2008-05-17 at 16:33.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-17, 16:29   Link #85
kitto-chan
很快是工程師
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ゴミ箱の存在の他の平野
^^ agreed "the National Institute of Literacy also states similarily. We don't necessary read the entire word. There was a site I can't find it. In it, it states that we don't read the as its spelled but the way its structured in a sentence. Understnad teh contxts is far more important in gathering infromation then reading each word. ANyone who has read my posts, has came across mispelling, poor grammer and what have you. yet I believe I get my point across.
kitto-chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-17, 19:20   Link #86
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/
__________________
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-17, 23:07   Link #87
reflection
gyabo!~
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Send a message via MSN to reflection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/
That's surely something I've never noticed until I read your post, heh. A lot of the times I have a tendency to subvocalize, maybe because of enjoyment? I'm not sure if it is common, but it's natural for me to generate a unique voice and tone for the particular passage I may be reading. If I need to extract information from a large amount of text then I can switch to speedreading mode no problem.
__________________
reflection is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-17, 23:13   Link #88
Supah Em
WHO DO YOU THINK WE ARE?!
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/
hmm... interesting find.

do take note that by messing up the words you significantly lower your reading speed because the brain takes up more time to process the new readings that does not usually pass the brain.

unless someone(again) boasts that he hadnt any problems with the quoted sentence at all because he's a reading genius or something, geez.
Supah Em is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-19, 02:22   Link #89
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Actually, if you can read it out loud as fast as you could if it were spelled correctly, then you might have a better understanding of what is being discussed. The example is showing that reading is as much *pattern recognition* as it is phonetics. Phonetics gets you started.... but eventually you shouldn't need to sound out words you've seen thousands of times. Later you'll learn to spot sentence fragments and grasp them at an instant rather than reading them sequentially. Perhaps later an entire sentence can be grokked in one blob-grab.

This pattern recognition (something the brain is naturally good at since it loves shortcuts to modeling the outside world) is sometimes more obvious in languages that use kanji rather than pure phonetics.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-19, 02:48   Link #90
Navel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supah Em View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/
hmm... interesting find.

do take note that by messing up the words you significantly lower your reading speed because the brain takes up more time to process the new readings that does not usually pass the brain.

unless someone(again) boasts that he hadnt any problems with the quoted sentence at all because he's a reading genius or something, geez.
If you subvocalize while reading that text fast (don't spend time on the words, just scan left to right), you'll read it as fast as reading "normal" text. Your mind will pick what your "inner voice" says, not what your eyes see. And somewhere along the path eyes -> brain -> subvocalization, your brain reconstructs the words without making you aware of that. This can probably be achieved without subvocalizing, but that's how I do it.

As a final note, yes reading fast is possible, but that is useless if you don't remember it later, if your purpose for reading is memorization. And memorization requires repetition and understanding. Understanding requires prior familiarization with the concepts being explained. And repetition refreshes your memory, since the human brain uses a natural process of information filtering, it only "stores" a few things from what it experiences. When you remember something, the human mind uses those stored pieces to make up a story on the spot. The "story" you remember and the real thing you experienced back then might be very different. Since this is a forum related to anime, I'll make a point using Ghost Hound, which had quite well done psychological research behind. The reason why what is said under hypnosis is no longer used as proof in a court of law is because psychologists realized what a good "story-teller" the mind is, and how good at fabricating stories it is if it's offered only a few starting points. What the hypnotist says or suggests to the person being hypnotized, those tiny pieces of information are then made up into a consistent story that usually has very little to do with anything that happened in that person's life. What's worse, the best lies are those that mix true facts (which can be verified) with made-up facts. The true facts give "trueness" to the lies.

Summary: the mind stores only bits of info, and when you remember, your mind fabricates a story on the spot without you realizing (you are not aware of the process) and, what's more, you have complete confidence the fabricated story you remember is true. If you really want to remember something with more details from the original knowledge rather than made up ones, you need to repeat the process of acquiring that knowledge, or to acquire related information from other sources (which is also repetition of the same knowledge). As there are more and more bits of info stored in your memory, you also understand new information from the same area of knowledge faster. There is a peak point though where more you know about a subject, the less useful it is and harder it is to remember specifics. That's information overload. One needs to let his mind forget things, that's healthy and keeps one's sanity.

PS. I've used "awareness" and I think it needs explanation. Imagine the mind as a huge field and there is a light spot that lights only a part of this field. What goes on in that lit part is what you are aware of. The rest that is left unlit, are all the processes going on in the mind that you are not aware of.

PS2: Ok, I've gone far beyond the subject at hand. Sorry!

Last edited by Navel; 2008-05-19 at 04:05.
Navel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.