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Old 2008-05-15, 16:27   Link #61
james0246
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
But Madara was also Itachi's mentor and helped him commit the massacre, so it seems like he was directly involved. It's not out of the question that Madara has had contact with Danzou as well.
Let me clarify. There is no way for Madara to know, from Itachi, of an arguement/agreement between Itachi and Danzou concerning Sasuke's role in the Massacre (a flashback can not detail conversations that other people have had that you do not witness, so either Itachi or Danzou told him (or Zetsu has been in Madara's services for at least the past decade )). Rather, the only way for Madara to know, since Itachi would never have told him, is if he was involved with Danzou, in which case the entire Uchiha massacre comes back to Madara not Konoha.
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Old 2008-05-15, 16:51   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
It makes no sense. If Danzou wanted him dead, he would have had him dead earlier. He would have not done it after Sasuke became a respectable ninja of Konoha.
Or he'd have done it soon after Sarutobi died. There was a good bit of time between the invasion and Sasuke leaving, more than enough for Sasuke to "fall on a kunai" or something...
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Old 2008-05-15, 16:54   Link #63
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Let me clarify. There is no way for Madara to know, from Itachi, of an arguement/agreement between Itachi and Danzou concerning Sasuke's role in the Massacre (a flashback can not detail conversations that other people have had that you do not witness, so either Itachi or Danzou told him (or Zetsu has been in Madara's services for at least the past decade )). Rather, the only way for Madara to know, since Itachi would never have told him, is if he was involved with Danzou, in which case the entire Uchiha massacre comes back to Madara not Konoha.
If it is true the sharingan can invade people's mind it would be easy for Madara to invade Itachi's and make Itachi tell
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Old 2008-05-15, 16:54   Link #64
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Let me clarify. There is no way for Madara to know, from Itachi, of an arguement/agreement between Itachi and Danzou concerning Sasuke's role in the Massacre (a flashback can not detail conversations that other people have had that you do not witness, so either Itachi or Danzou told him (or Zetsu has been in Madara's services for at least the past decade )). Rather, the only way for Madara to know, since Itachi would never have told him, is if he was involved with Danzou, in which case the entire Uchiha massacre comes back to Madara not Konoha.
We are talking about a guy who has a ninja like Zetsu at disposal, in the recent chapters Zetsu was a secret-camera recording the whole fight for Madara. Maybe he even added his narration to the recording
Even if that Zetsu guy has zero combat powers he is very valuable since not even Sasuke or Itachi could detect his presence despite they had their sharingan working for the whole fight. And that's odd considering that all living beings have chakra and chakra can be seen by sharingan. My tip is that Zetsu can somehow supress any chakra from leaking out of him, and if sharingan vision is a passive device it could not see any chakra radiation coming from Zetsu, however if it turns out that byakugan is some active vision which can scan the territiry (for active vision they need energy, so that would also give the reason why byakugan needs all those blood vessels around the eye: chakra is going to the eye at constant rate to supply it with the chakra needed for the beam) then Hinata/Neji would be able to detect Zetsu.

So if Zetsu was placed by Madara to observe Itachi's every move then it's possible that he knows about everything.
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Old 2008-05-15, 17:22   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiroInazuma View Post
If it is true the sharingan can invade people's mind it would be easy for Madara to invade Itachi's and make Itachi tell
thats what i think, madara is the master at the eye, he would be able to go into itachis minde in seconds and leave with whatever info he needed without itachi noticing something took place.

maybe thats why he didnt trust him since he could have felt something odd.
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Old 2008-05-15, 17:31   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
There's still no information about Shishui, who was supposedly killed by Itachi to obtain MS, so that must be adressed too. Since Itachi did try to make Sasuke kill Naruto, we really can't say that Itachi was a "good guy", but i'm really happy that he turned out to be such a tragic character that i always wanted him to be, someone who is neither good nor evil, but is a ninja with outstanding talent who had that strangely (to me) high level of loyalty to the ninja army of Konoha that he commited murders and sacrificed everything. This makes him a really special guy who cannot be simply categorized as one of those simple shonen manga characters (like Naruto, Sakura and even Sasuke).
Regarding that, and the newly discovered Itachi-hero image, I would think that we can speculate that he told Sasuke that he needed to kill his best friend because he knew Sasuke wouldn't have the guts to do it (or would be too proud to try it that way).
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Old 2008-05-15, 17:54   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
So if Zetsu was placed by Madara to observe Itachi's every move then it's possible that he knows about everything.
I did account for Zetsu's wierd abilities . But, it is currently unknown if Zetsu was working with/for Madara at that point, and unless Zetsu or Madara say otherwise, we can only assume that Madara had Danzou and Itachi to get this info from.

Additionally, @ HiroInazuma, considering the fact that Itachi was able to keep his plans concerning the transfer of techniques and the back-up plan to kill Madara from Madara, I think it is more likely that Madara could not simply peer into Itachi's mind. Rather, it is more likely that Madara had Zetsu keep a constant surveliance on Itachi (as Ero-Senn1n hinted at).
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Old 2008-05-15, 17:59   Link #68
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
it is more likely that Madara had Zetsu keep a constant surveliance on Itachi (as Ero-Senn1n hinted at).
I wonder how much Zetsu charged an hour? Must have been expensive.
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Old 2008-05-15, 18:44   Link #69
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Let me clarify. There is no way for Madara to know, from Itachi, of an arguement/agreement between Itachi and Danzou concerning Sasuke's role in the Massacre (a flashback can not detail conversations that other people have had that you do not witness, so either Itachi or Danzou told him (or Zetsu has been in Madara's services for at least the past decade )). Rather, the only way for Madara to know, since Itachi would never have told him, is if he was involved with Danzou, in which case the entire Uchiha massacre comes back to Madara not Konoha.
I think Zetsu probably was in Madara's services for a long time before Shippuden or even the OG series run. Which is strange that Madara would act like "baka/Tobi" even when alone with Zetsu, and ask if he can join Akatsuki with Sasori's ring and what-not, when low-and-behold, Tobi is Madara, who is the founder.

To be quite frank, I believe that even as far back as the Naruto vs Sasuke in the VOTE fight was recorded by Madara's behest (though he wasn't in the Akatsuki picture yet persay, he still could've been acting from behind the scenes) and I say thid because obviously the fight is more Uchiha-centric revolving around Sasuke being better than Naruto, and in the end actually getting the jump. It makes more sense that Madara was making plans to get Sasuke as far back as then, since Itachi had already noted (back then) that it was too early to capture the 9-tails, so the VOTE fight was recorded purely out of interest for Sasuke's development.

As far as the clan massacre goes, I've heard internet rumors circulating for sometime that the Uchiha had a darker side that Sasuke didn't know about (which originally I believed to be the whole brother x brother eye thing), which could be pertaining to MS, or could mean the Uchiha's lust for power. At any rate, this entire story Madara is telling Sasuke is so one-sided, and "feel sorry for me," since obviously an evil-doer wouldn't outright say "hey, I ripped out my little bros eyes regardless of what he said, wanted to be Hokage so I tried killing the First, and helped kill everyone in your family because I was bored." Either way, Madara is bascially just poisoning Sasuke's mind with his "side" of the story, basically making himself (and possibly the clan) out to be martyrs, and the village to be the true evil doers.
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Old 2008-05-15, 19:53   Link #70
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And let's not forget that Itachi chose to slaughter the entire clan, instead of trying to convince his superiors to seek a more peaceful resolution to the conflict. No, no matter how much Madara tries to paint a pretty picture of Itachi's "sacrifice", he's still a killer. Plain and simple.
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Old 2008-05-15, 20:33   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
And let's not forget that Itachi chose to slaughter the entire clan, instead of trying to convince his superiors to seek a more peaceful resolution to the conflict. No, no matter how much Madara tries to paint a pretty picture of Itachi's "sacrifice", he's still a killer. Plain and simple.
I got to say I agree with this, if I were Sasuke I wouldn't think killing Itachi was a mistake even after this explanation. I mean the guy did kill the whole family regardless. At least he had a somewhat good reason (better than testing himself anyway) but it would have been a better idea to flatly tell his father the village already knew everything and that at this point the clan would be better off negotiating with Sarutobi rather than going into an hopeless war.
But I guess killing everybody and torture and traumatize his little brother for life seemed a bette idea to "protect" him.

Sasuke will probably feel like shit about the whole thing if he believes it but frankly I would rather be sorry that I couldn't kill him twice so I could spit in his dying face that I know the truth and that I'm going to kill a whole lot of Konohanian just to make sure he massacred his family for nothing. Not that I would do it but it would feel good to see him dying in despair rather than thinking he accomplished his duty
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Old 2008-05-15, 20:36   Link #72
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I just remembered something, Madara said he was born with the strongest chakra in the clan and the Kyuubi said Sasuke's chakra is like that of Uchiha Madara, is that the reason Madara takes so much interest in Sasuke, does Madara think that Sasuke is the future him which could also be why Danzou finds Sasuke as such a threat and Orochimaru takes a lot of interest in Sasuke's eyes
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Old 2008-05-15, 21:56   Link #73
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I wonder if there is something about sakura we don't know. she seems to not belong in the team. knowing what we know now. sandaime purposely put sasuke and naruto under the best jounin in the village, too ensure their safety. wonder if sakura was put there for a reason as well?
That right there, is an extremely interesting point you made Goshin. I think there's a reason why Kishi hasn't given any background info on one of the main characters over the past 9 years.
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Old 2008-05-15, 23:34   Link #74
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Just read 400; ya it's out.

Appears Itachi isn't such a bad person after all, his hand was forced for most part, so he took the what was in his opinion the best route - it was an ugly route, but it was the best available.

It also show Madara's feelings toward the whole mess. Wonder what he has planned now. And more important what Sasuke has planned now that he know the truth.
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Old 2008-05-15, 23:39   Link #75
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The thing is. Yes Itachi is still a killer, but with the Uchiha clan's plans for a coup against Konoha, they would've been wiped out anyway, INCLUDING Sasuke. So by doing the job himself, he actually ended up saving Sasuke from what was to come.

Poor Itachi. I hope Sasuke remembers him as a brother and not a murderer.

What I want to know though is why did Itachi make Sasuke's Amaterasu trigger against Madara. Is Madara planning to destroy Konoha? Is Sasuke's mission now to protect his village?
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Old 2008-05-15, 23:48   Link #76
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So, Madara ended up admitting he and Itachi did everything (except the Kyuubi attack that was a "natural disaster") while putting ALL the blame on 3 old farts.

Itachi was in Akatsuki 2 years before the massacre and that wasn't related to his mission apparently. (since Danzou and others didn't suspect Madara was even alive), yet Madara said Itachi only approached him to wipe out the clan.
If Itachi needed Madara, why the hell would he be sent alone to do the job ?

Madara's speech is more fishy than it was in the latest chapter IMHO.
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Old 2008-05-16, 00:03   Link #77
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I have a feeling that perhaps the story of Itachi is true, but I think it's a load of BS that the Kyuubi attack was a "natural disaster." And I don't buy Madara's whole "Oh woe is me I am such a martyr" speech either. Somehow I don't think he gave a damn about the clan. In fact, he probably had a grudge against them if it's true that they turned against him. He was probably more then happy to wipe them out.
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Old 2008-05-16, 00:07   Link #78
james0246
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
So, Madara ended up admitting he and Itachi did everything (except the Kyuubi attack that was a "natural disaster") while putting ALL the blame on 3 old farts.

Itachi was in Akatsuki 2 years before the massacre and that wasn't related to his mission apparently. (since Danzou and others didn't suspect Madara was even alive), yet Madara said Itachi only approached him to wipe out the clan.
If Itachi needed Madara, why the hell would he be sent alone to do the job ?

Madara's speech is more fishy than it was in the latest chapter IMHO.
Honestly, this makes even less sense than last chapter where at least Madara was detailing events that happened to him personally. Itachi came off as a complete idiot. He wishes for peace, so he slaughters his family. He wishes to protect his brother, so he tells him to kill a friend and live a life of darkness and solitude.

Here is hoping that next chapter Madara says something along the line that Itachi was actually forced by his clan to kill them. Specifically, that Itachi went to his father to tell them about a possible truce that Sarutobi was offering, only for his father to turn on him and literally force Itachi to kill the clan. Otherwise, Itachi is not a hero, he is not a sacrifice, he is nothing more than an idiot that decided that wholesale slaughter is an answer to all of lives questions and Sasuke should feel no sympathy for Itachi or Madara, and if he desires to hurt Konoha it should only be Danzou who is implicated more so than the two advisors.
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Old 2008-05-16, 00:12   Link #79
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Originally Posted by HiroInazuma View Post
I just remembered something, Madara said he was born with the strongest chakra in the clan and the Kyuubi said Sasuke's chakra is like that of Uchiha Madara, is that the reason Madara takes so much interest in Sasuke, does Madara think that Sasuke is the future him which could also be why Danzou finds Sasuke as such a threat and Orochimaru takes a lot of interest in Sasuke's eyes
He didn't say Sasuke or hinted Sasuke was like Madara. He was talking about the power of the eyes. He said that power was more malice than his own and said not to kill Naruto or he'll regret it. Why Madara is interesting in Sasuke, I don't know, maybe he transfers body like Orochi. Guess that would kind of make sense, transferring to Uchiha body so he can live longer and still have the appropriate body for the usage of his eyes. So maybe that's really Obi's body with Madara in it? I just pulled this out of my ass right now so who knows...

Anyways, good chapter...poor Itachi....Sasuke world is falling apart...
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Old 2008-05-16, 00:24   Link #80
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Originally Posted by zalem View Post
Somehow I don't think he gave a damn about the clan. In fact, he probably had a grudge against them if it's true that they turned against him. He was probably more then happy to wipe them out.
Err, don't think there is any disputing that he hates the clan, he admitted it himself. He said he help Itachi just so he could have his revenge.

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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Itachi came off as a complete idiot. He wishes for peace, so he slaughters his family.
It was the best option he figured he had, it's either that or a 4th ninja war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
He wishes to protect his brother, so he tells him to kill a friend and live a life of darkness and solitude.
He wanted him to get stronger, he and the 3rd can't protect him forever you know.

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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Here is hoping that next chapter Madara says something along the line that Itachi was actually forced by his clan to kill them.
Indirectly he was.
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