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Old 2008-05-16, 00:43   Link #81
Fipskuul
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Half Danzou, half Madara. I have assumed, till now, that even if they are not the same, they are connected in one goal. Getting rid of a problem before it becomes uncontrollable. Danzou's motives were clear. The problem was with Madara. Madara tries to look more reasonable by agreeing to Itachi's request. Now, I wonder which one is worse. Danzou betrayed his promise by trying to assassinate Sasuke. And, Madara did so by using Pain to gain Bijuu to destroy possibly Konoha and other countries.

Though, the beauty of the chapter was the end. Sasuke's response to Madara's history lesson. At least, Madara achieved his goal by planting the seeds of doubt within Sasuke, regardless of how much he tries to not accept that.

At the end, we still couldn't get an answer as to why killing Naruto is bad for Sasuke's health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Itachi came off as a complete idiot. He wishes for peace, so he slaughters his family. He wishes to protect his brother, so he tells him to kill a friend and live a life of darkness and solitude.
At that point, maybe his goal of eliminating his own self at the hands of his brother was much more powerful than his desire for his brother to lead a peaceful life. At the end, you can also say that, Itachi's death will give the only peaceful life Sasuke needs. Another thing, if you remember Sasuke's refusal not to kill his friend to gain power, was also created by Itachi's request to do just that. If Itachi wouldn't have asked for that, maybe Sasuke would have really killed his friend.
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Old 2008-05-16, 00:45   Link #82
james0246
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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Indirectly he was.
I will have to disagree with this. Itachi, right now, was not actually forced to kill his clan. In fact, Sarutobi was even stated as looking for a peaceful solution, but Itachi himself choose the act of violence over the act of peace...which he supposedly supports. That is why I said that I hope that Madara reveals that Itachi did look for a peaceful solution before he resorted to slaughter, otherwise this is Itachi's fault (with Madara and Danzou's help) and he deserves no sympathy for it.
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Old 2008-05-16, 00:51   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
I will have to disagree with this. Itachi, right now, was not actually forced to kill his clan. In fact, Sarutobi was even stated as looking for a peaceful solution, but Itachi himself choose the act of violence over the act of peace...which he supposedly supports. That is why I said that I hope that Madara reveals that Itachi did look for a peaceful solution before he resorted to slaughter, otherwise this is Itachi's fault (with Madara and Danzou's help) and he deserves no sympathy for it.
Didn't Madara say the 3rd's negotiation for a truce with the Uchiha fail?
If the negotiation went well, the 3rd could have force Danzo to call the whole thing off.

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At the end, we still couldn't get an answer as to why killing Naruto is bad for Sasuke's health.
Kyubi lied ?
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:03   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Kyubi lied ?
Who knows! When someone's a** is on the line, lying is the quickest way to prevent any misfortune.

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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
If the negotiation went well, the 3rd could have force Danzo to call the whole thing off.
I doubt that. And, that might be the exact reason why they couldn't reach an agreement. Neither side had any trust in the other at that point.
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:12   Link #85
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well.. read the chapter. and id say i believe what madara said. else we'd all be pissed with kishimoto for wasting lots of chapters (and weeks) just to tell us lies.
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:14   Link #86
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yep
itachi pulled a severus snape on us
bravo kishi, simply bravo
now itachi pwnsss alll
he wasn't even trained by madara after all

LOL i think LotU made Kishi write parts of this chapter
'Only an Uchiha could take on an Uchiha"
Now LotU has evovled to Super Uchiha Fanboy level 8!

and wow, Madara with the old mask and hair, LOl i love the disco look
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:14   Link #87
james0246
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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Didn't Madara say the 3rd's negotiation for a truce with the Uchiha fail?
But what is to say that Itachi could not have negotiated a deal. That is my problem right now, Itachi seems to have sucummbed too eaisily to the idea of killing his clan, when in reality he should have fought for peace before he resorted to plan B, which was calling Madara to kill the women and children, while Itachi took care of the men.

Additionally, it is unknown how Sarutobi failed. Specifically, did he fail in getting the Uchiha Clan to agree to negotions, did the negotions themself fail, or did they simply take to long, so Itachi decided to act during an opportune time (or maybe I am just looking into it to deeply).

Again, this is why I hope Madara emphasizes the point in the next chapter. Otherwise, it seems like Itachi thought the Uchiha Clan was bad, so he killed them, and somehow that is supposed to make him a hero to Sasuke or a sacrifice for Sasuke. I am going to have to agree with Hunter than Itachi deserved to die more than every if this chapter details his actual motives.
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:20   Link #88
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1. Itachi asked help from Madara , isn't he his teacher ? Its most likely madara scouted Itachi.

2. What did madara get in return for helping Itachi? Why didn't Madara help uchiha's coup. It was a perfect opportunity for him to bring down konoho.

3. Looks like sasuke would go against the elders/village not only to avenge his clan but also his brother --- (sasuke asking why did itachi betray our clan?)

4. If itachi wanted to have sasuke a peaceful life he would have left him alone, but looks like itachi knew madara's plot before so he wanted sasuke to be much stronger than him.

5. Madara a blatant liar or most likely he twists the truth to serve him.

6. Danzo a senju?
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:23   Link #89
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Originally Posted by chitgoks View Post
well.. read the chapter. and id say i believe what madara said. else we'd all be pissed with kishimoto for wasting lots of chapters (and weeks) just to tell us lies.
Are you assuming that Kishimoto wasted a lot of chapters by making sure that Itachi is the exact opposite of a hero? It is nice to have a change of mind about a character and an event.
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:25   Link #90
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Why would Itachi choose to side with Konoha over his own family? Sasuke left Konoha just to avenge his family. They made completely different choices. And killing your entire clan in order to prevent war isn't admirable. That's evil villain logic. It's on par with ethnic cleansing. Even if the story is completely true, Sasuke can still hate Itachi and hate Madara as well. They haven't been redeemed at all.

However, I think something is wrong with Madara's story. Like Sasuke said, Madara is lying. In my opinion, part of the story is true and part of it is a lie. I believe Madara to be responsible for the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha (as Jiraiya hinted at). And that is the event that supposedly provoked the hostility between Konoha and the Uchiha clan.
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:33   Link #91
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
I am going to have to agree with Hunter than Itachi deserved to die more than every if this chapter details his actual motives.
Of course, he deserved to die. That is what Itachi strongly felt when he took on that mission. Making himself the person everyone hates, and making his life being ended at the ends of his own brother to make him able to recreate a better Uchiha that Konoha can trust.

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But what is to say that Itachi could not have negotiated a deal. That is my problem right now, Itachi seems to have sucummbed too eaisily to the idea of killing his clan, when in reality he should have fought for peace before he resorted to plan B, which was calling Madara to kill the women and children, while Itachi took care of the men.
Are you sure about that? What do you expect him to do? Hasn't all the wars being started out of unnecessary conflicts? Despite the fact that both sides are aware of the consequences, they hardly ever try to take a step back. To me it is obvious that Itachi had no power whatsoever to stop Uchiha's plans. And, the same way, I believe, Konoha had no way to stop their own countermeasure based on that information. Itachi had two choices. Either let the time flow not succeeding in anything playing the peaceful understanding negotiator and allowing both sides starting a war that may eliminate a big portion of Konoha, or try to cut the problematic portion with his own hands, by getting rid of the smallest portion of that conflict.
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:51   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
I doubt that. And, that might be the exact reason why they couldn't reach an agreement. Neither side had any trust in the other at that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
But what is to say that Itachi could not have negotiated a deal. That is my problem right now, Itachi seems to have sucummbed too eaisily to the idea of killing his clan, when in reality he should have fought for peace before he resorted to plan B, which was calling Madara to kill the women and children, while Itachi took care of the men.

Additionally, it is unknown how Sarutobi failed. Specifically, did he fail in getting the Uchiha Clan to agree to negotions, did the negotions themself fail, or did they simply take to long, so Itachi decided to act during an opportune time (or maybe I am just looking into it to deeply).

Again, this is why I hope Madara emphasizes the point in the next chapter. Otherwise, it seems like Itachi thought the Uchiha Clan was bad, so he killed them, and somehow that is supposed to make him a hero to Sasuke or a sacrifice for Sasuke. I am going to have to agree with Hunter than Itachi deserved to die more than every if this chapter details his actual motives.
Regardless of how the 3rd failed, the point is he did, civil war was about to break out.

The 3rd is Hokage, he wields considerable power. If the Uchiha agree to a truce, it would have remove all bases for Danoz's plans, the 3rd would have easily been able to force him to stand down.
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Old 2008-05-16, 01:55   Link #93
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I actually think under the circumstances Itachi faced, he did the lesser of 2 evils, and perhaps he was justified. It doesn't sound like a 'peaceful solution' would have been 'in-line' with the world of naruto. I thought what was revealed in 400 was quite logical, plausible and consistent. Oh and not to mention quite entertaining, it almost seems like Sasuke will get the mangekyou sharingan next chapter, awesome.
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Old 2008-05-16, 02:23   Link #94
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I actually think under the circumstances Itachi faced, he did the lesser of 2 evils, and perhaps he was justified. It doesn't sound like a 'peaceful solution' would have been 'in-line' with the world of naruto. I thought what was revealed in 400 was quite logical, plausible and consistent. Oh and not to mention quite entertaining, it almost seems like Sasuke will get the mangekyou sharingan next chapter, awesome.
Logical in the same way that annihilating Israel would bring peace to the Middle East.
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Old 2008-05-16, 02:26   Link #95
Allamanda
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I'm worrying I'm the only one who does think loving a peaceful world isn't an ample reason to murder the clan as a whole in a night.


edit: Well, probably I should've read one or two posts, but whatever.
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Old 2008-05-16, 02:31   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Why would Itachi choose to side with Konoha over his own family? Sasuke left Konoha just to avenge his family. They made completely different choices. And killing your entire clan in order to prevent war isn't admirable. That's evil villain logic. It's on par with ethnic cleansing. Even if the story is completely true, Sasuke can still hate Itachi and hate Madara as well. They haven't been redeemed at all.

However, I think something is wrong with Madara's story. Like Sasuke said, Madara is lying. In my opinion, part of the story is true and part of it is a lie. I believe Madara to be responsible for the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha (as Jiraiya hinted at). And that is the event that supposedly provoked the hostility between Konoha and the Uchiha clan.
Rather then choosing his family over Konoha. He chose a massacere over a world war. You should also remember he lived trough a world war. If you could sacrifice one person to save a hundered would you or hell even thousands in this case? He was traumatized. I've never been trough one so I can't say how horrible it was, but that it's enough to traumatize some might not be that far fetched.

While I'm not saying Itachi did a good thing. It's not hard to understand why he did the thing he did.
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Old 2008-05-16, 02:32   Link #97
james0246
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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Regardless of how the 3rd failed, the point is he did, civil war was about to break out.

The 3rd is Hokage, he wields considerable power. If the Uchiha agree to a truce, it would have remove all bases for Danoz's plans, the 3rd would have easily been able to force him to stand down.
That is my point, it seems that Itachi went through with the massacre without an explicit order. Specifically, he trained to accomplish this goal (that Madara implies Itachi sought himself), but in the end Sarutobi stepped in and and started negotiating, but then for whatever reasons the negations failed or were put on hold so Itachi took the initiative and killed his clan effectively destroying any ability that Sasuke can have to feel sympathy for him, which begs the question of Why we are being told his story now and through Madara and not simply from Itachi during their fight.

Nothing Madara is saying, that deals with Itachi, could not have been told more dramtaically and explicitedly by a dying Itachi. In fact, since it makes no sense for Madara to know any of the additional information concerning Itachi or his goals (he even mentions that he does not understand Itachi's mental state), it would have been better for Itachi to simply say "Everything I did, I did for You and Konoha." At least then, Sasuke could relish the defeat of a monstrous human being, while at the same time open up avenues for further exploration as to the true purpose and reason behind the massacre (and Madara will step in and fill in the blanks).

Again, it makes no sense. Madara is trying to guilt trip Sasuke, but nothing Madara is saying should change anyone's opinions of Itachi or Madara. He still killed his clan, seemingly of his own volition (he saw it as his "duty", and Madara helped because he was extremely petty and wanted revenge for a personal slight from 50 plus years ago. True Konoha's sh*t doesn't smell like roses, but nothing that Madara has said so far is that bad, and really only Danzou comes across as being a bad person. So, in the end, despite the fact that these chapters are well written, they are not convinicingly arguing that Itachi is someone to have sympathy for or to admire or think anything different about. Rather, they are currently serving no purpose other than giving Sasuke a chance to freak out and make another stupid decision.

---

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Are you sure about that? What do you expect him to do? Hasn't all the wars being started out of unnecessary conflicts? Despite the fact that both sides are aware of the consequences, they hardly ever try to take a step back. To me it is obvious that Itachi had no power whatsoever to stop Uchiha's plans. And, the same way, I believe, Konoha had no way to stop their own countermeasure based on that information. Itachi had two choices. Either let the time flow not succeeding in anything playing the peaceful understanding negotiator and allowing both sides starting a war that may eliminate a big portion of Konoha, or try to cut the problematic portion with his own hands, by getting rid of the smallest portion of that conflict.
Then why were the women and children killed. What posible reason is there to kill the women and children, or even to let Madara kill the women and children. The fact is, the clan still had innocent members, and, until Kishimoto says otherwise, it is silly to think that Sasuke was the only child or the only child worth saving. There is a difference between killing off a rebellious faction and the leaders and perpetrators of said faction, and destroying any trace of the clans existance down to the last child. Additionally, it makes no sense for Danzou to approve the destruction of the women and children because they could have served a purpose in creating new Uchiha's only loyaly to Konoha.

No, the motive Madara is presenting does not make sense, or at least it is not as logical as some seem to think it is.

---

Here is an interesting idea. Madara keeps talking about how good Sarutobi was. Wouldn't it be interesting if the name "Tobi" was derived from Sarutobi as a sign of respect?

Last edited by james0246; 2008-05-16 at 04:00.
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Old 2008-05-16, 02:37   Link #98
Fipskuul
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I'm worrying I'm the only one who does think loving a peaceful world isn't an ample reason to murder the clan as a whole in a night.
I am just wondering, what would you have preferred him to do? Waiting with that dream in mind, and becoming a weapon for his clan to kill non-Uchihas at the end, resulting in the destruction of Konoha as a result of the resulting weak entity inviting the attacks of other countries so easily (especially when there are many out there searching for such opportunities). Maybe, that would have served a better purpose for that peace-and-love!
(that reminds me of the peace lover stuff smokers enjoying their lives in concerts protesting wars and deaths while there are many dying in wars at the time regardless of their ineffective protests)
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Old 2008-05-16, 02:41   Link #99
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Anyone else think that this chapter just puts into perspective how completely badass and domineering the 3rd was? Geez they need a Sandaime gaiden like hardcore. Madara in that forest scene with Itachi reminds me of a bear, just living and hiberating in the woods, lol. Good stuff.
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Old 2008-05-16, 02:43   Link #100
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itachi wanted his brother to hate him and grow strong, he is like darth vader, if he told him the story of his life, he wouldnt have believed him

madara is the yoda in the story, a old wise man who you can semi trust because he has no reason to really make up a story. madara could have said the 3rd was really the most evil and demanded itachi kill his own clan, but he didnt, he told sasuke the 3rd wanted peace and so did itachi, but when talks fail, war happens.

3rd knew war was coming, itachi knew war was coming. Itachi had 2 choices join his clan in overthrow and fight in great big ninja war, or kill his family and clan and keep the leaf a peaceful place. itachi picked the lesser of 2 evils.
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