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Old 2008-06-28, 04:37   Link #2021
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
The trouble is, the nature of melee fighting means there is no such thing as merely 'passable' - you're either an expert or you're dead.
Dwa? Where did you get this distorted image of melee combat? There is no eternal gap between 'dead' or 'expert' melee fighters, that's just nonsense. There very much is such a thing as 'passable' melee. Real life examples and long rants aside, take Nanoha. She has passable melee, enough to hold of melee focussed fighters and get back her own advantages, but not enough to outright beat her enemies in melee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Come on, I need more 70s for OCST in order to look vaguely like a raiding guild in future! My pally and soon to be PT'd rogue is not enough! And LE is another pally! Need Hunter to MD boss to me until Blizz decide to give me a goddamn Taunt!
*coughhackchoke* Wha? Last I checked Righteous Defense > Taunt by a rather large margin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
You moved within 12" of a Khrack Squad, allowing them to Assault you.
Damn overpowered assaults. -_-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Er... Book got deleted/reformatted, so Hayate had to start afresh... Is this changed in your work?
It was stated somewhere that Hayate still has acces to all the spells copied in A's I believe. And with her large mana pool, there's little she can't cast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Still, let's be honest here, people, outside of plot, just what are melee-user chances of sneaking up on Hayate? She's a flier. So long as she stays in the air she can see them coming at her and take steps to evade.
Illusion spells, speed enhancment, long range binds, decoys, and simply sneaking up.

All of the above have been used in canon too.

Illusion spells: StrikerS episode 1, Teana cast a stealth spell on Subaru and herself, allowing Subaru to sneak up on a bunch of drones. Fake silouete too of course.

Speed enhancment: Ample examples here. A's has Signum and the Lieze twins do this more often then not, and even in the first season it saw use.

Long range binds: A's again, episode 7 has it used against Nanoha.

Decoys: The first episode of A's comes to mind, Vita using a decoy shot to close in. Fake Silouete in StrikerS 1 too.

Simply sneaking up: Happens more often then you'd think. Signum and Zafira snuck up to the cast in A's 2, Lotte snuck up to Fate and got in a clean hit, to name a few. Being in the air does not mean you're all-knowing.

Now, pretty much all of these techniques can be used in reverse too (Hayate using long-range binds and shooting away? Yes please!) but it goes to show that closing distance in Nanoha is not at all suicidal, and is in fact a valid tactic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
I'd say it's actually a non issue regarding the melee skill issue.

anyone skilled enough to sneak up on Hayate is almost certainly going to be skilled enough to kill ANYONE you put in that situation, regardless of who it is or what they know.
Guess that makes Signum, Vita, Zafira, Teana, Aria and Lotte the most overpowered characters in Nanoha, huh?

There is no 'skilled enough to sneak up on Hayate' sneaking up on oponents is a regularely used tactic in Nanoha, which means that Hayate is just as much a potential victim to it as anyone else.
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Old 2008-06-28, 04:48   Link #2022
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
*coughhackchoke* Wha? Last I checked Righteous Defense > Taunt by a rather large margin.
Needs targeting macros to be effective, like the one I have for BoP, which then begs the chance of said person pulling an aggro-dump, and I waste the RD/BoP.

But its still theorycrafting. I've never done tankadin at 70 as I sold my pally before BC came along. Now we'll have to depend on Crushridge to have the final verdict.

Though if a mob is resistant to Taunt, does it resist RD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Damn overpowered assaults. -_-
I'm Tau; I'm so scared that I have to stick a big fat Fish in the way of assaulters as a good luck charm. And even after all that 5th Ed gimping, I'm still wondering if I can take on Ghaz's Ravenwing proper with my Farsight list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It was stated somewhere that Hayate still has acces to all the spells copied in A's I believe. And with her large mana pool, there's little she can't cast.
Yeah I stood corrected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Guess that makes Signum, Vita, Zafira, Teana, Aria and Lotte the most overpowered characters in Nanoha, huh?

There is no 'skilled enough to sneak up on Hayate' sneaking up on oponents is a regularely used tactic in Nanoha, which means that Hayate is just as much a potential victim to it as anyone else.
In other words, Rogues destroy Mages, anywhere, any timeline.
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Old 2008-06-28, 04:58   Link #2023
AdmiralTigerclaw
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That's one thing that bothers me... the sneaking up bit.

The devices can pick up life forms from easily detectable signatures, through solid buildings from hundreds of meters away, but they don't seem to notice enemies a stones throw away flanking you.

I can understand decoy shots and then quick jinks to take advantage of the drawn attention...

But things like Signum's counterstrike against Fate in the first fight in A's... she just comes right up in front of her as if out of nowhere, not so much as a warning from Bardiche, or anyone else for that matter. Being all but alone in that barrier area, you'd figure Bardiche would have noticed something like, Signum's thermal signature closing the distance and give a head's up. I know I'd appreciate the extra information a little sooner than: "BLOCKING SWORD NOW! THANK YOU!" You know, even with magic, she's not a mage version of Solid Snake, she's a Cloud Knight... She's going to be giving off some kind of signature, thermal, magical... whatever. Hell, with some of her armor and Levantin being metal, she probably has a freakin' Radar Crossection. (The RCS would be exageration of course, I doubt devices would be pumping out Radar while being HELD in a person's hands.)

In fact, it continues into StrikerS, where at the begining, Raising Heart confirms the entire testing area to be all clear of bystanders before they begin. Yet devices seem to have a hard time finding people with no special stealth attributes.

It's real hit and miss, and I chalk it up to another default of 7arcs...

So that leaves us with the 'how do we incorporate it so it makes sense?' angle.
*Ponder ponder...*
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Old 2008-06-28, 05:10   Link #2024
Keroko
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Simplest answer in my opinion is cloacking. Devices could be able to jam the scanning of other Devices, cloaking the presence if the wielder doesn't want to be found. It's not so much an attribute of the mage, but an attribute of the Device. Basically, as long as you don't do stuff that is too fancy, you can cloack yourself from passive scans. An active scan (such as a Wide Area Search) would still detect you, but without the mage actually casting that spell, the low level scans won't be able to find a mage who doesn't want to to be found.

Do note that every time these scans missed people was when they didn't want to be found, and they only time they were found they either revealed themselves or people were actively searching for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Needs targeting macros to be effective, like the one I have for BoP, which then begs the chance of said person pulling an aggro-dump, and I waste the RD/BoP.
Pfft, targetting macros. Its simple, really. Party member gets agro, target party member (clicking their portraits usually does the trick) RD, throw down concecration (depending on the party, having Ret aura on can help too) and you have them. JoC, SoR, and keep on crashing.

Oh, and always have Righteous Fury on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Though if a mob is resistant to Taunt, does it resist RD?
*taps chin* You know... I really don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
I'm Tau; I'm so scared that I have to stick a big fat Fish in the way of assaulters as a good luck charm. And even after all that 5th Ed gimping, I'm still wondering if I can take on Ghaz's Ravenwing proper with my Farsight list.
I usually went "Assault squad! Markerlight! Markerlight! Markerlight! Fire! Fire!Fire! Kill! Kill!Kill!" after which they were usually dead. But then, if you have two or three squads firing with BS 5, rapid fire and 30" range, you tend to kill stuff rather quickly. :3

Downside being that all other squads suddenly had a chance to close in. But if the assault squads died, my chances usually rose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Yeah I stood corrected.
Whoops, missed that. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
In other words, Rogues destroy Mages, anywhere, any timeline.
Duh.
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Old 2008-06-28, 09:05   Link #2025
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
No offense kriss but with your creation speed I think Kha's rebuilds will have been completed and we'll all be on the 3rd incarnation of the OC thread.

Edit: You're sick? Sorry.
You give me too much credit. We'll probably be on the 7th incarnation and Kha will have found a way to take over the world through Khrack.
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Old 2008-06-28, 09:43   Link #2026
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Old 2008-06-28, 09:44   Link #2027
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Pfft, targetting macros. Its simple, really. Party member gets agro, target party member (clicking their portraits usually does the trick) RD, throw down concecration (depending on the party, having Ret aura on can help too) and you have them. JoC, SoR, and keep on crashing.

Oh, and always have Righteous Fury on.
Yeah, there's this macro that RD's the Target's Target, thus making the RD turn into a Taunt (and doing what you've described in 1 button). It'll be very hard especially with lag to react faster than this. Maybe I should try Leo with this instead of a respecced pally.

And yes definitely. RF is on even in pvp. 6% extra damage reduction works anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
*taps chin* You know... I really don't know.
Haven't tried before either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I usually went "Assault squad! Markerlight! Markerlight! Markerlight! Fire! Fire!Fire! Kill! Kill!Kill!" after which they were usually dead. But then, if you have two or three squads firing with BS 5, rapid fire and 30" range, you tend to kill stuff rather quickly. :3

Downside being that all other squads suddenly had a chance to close in. But if the assault squads died, my chances usually rose.
The Assaulters usually have tricks of their own too... Some even use their Assault squad to lure my guns into a trap; I got an Orb Strike on my FWs before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Whoops, missed that. Sorry.
No prob.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Duh.
Working as intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
You give me too much credit. We'll probably be on the 7th incarnation and Kha will have found a way to take over the world through Khrack.
Just as planned.
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Old 2008-06-28, 12:06   Link #2028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
In other words, Rogues destroy Mages, anywhere, any timeline.
I Beg to differ in Novus, where the mages/mystics are zomfghaxpwn almost everyone, can dodgetank mobs, and...

*is dragged*
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Old 2008-06-28, 12:37   Link #2029
LimitedEternal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
The trouble is, the nature of melee fighting means there is no such thing as merely 'passable' - you're either an expert or you're dead.

and Hayate's no expert. Power is meaningless in a melee against any opponent of real skill - they'll simply use their skills to turn it against you...of course, the reverse can also be true...
Not necessarily. Yes, the gap between an expert and a novice is considerable, but combat is a chaotic situation...even an expert can slip up, possibly enough for the novice to escape or even land a lucky hit.
Quote:
I strongly suspect the same would also be true of Hayate, suggesting that she either uses her power to let her survive just long enough to open up some range and cut loose, or can spam some kind of area of effect attack centered on herself that can blow away enemies (for SRW fans, think Cybuster's Cyflash)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
*prods Eva back from Crushridge*

Come on, I need more 70s for OCST in order to look vaguely like a raiding guild in future! My pally and soon to be PT'd rogue is not enough! And LE is another pally! Need Hunter to MD boss to me until Blizz decide to give me a goddamn Taunt!
Hey, I'm Ret, that doesn't count!

And you have taunts, try Avenger's Shield or Righteous Defense...
Quote:
You moved within 12" of a Khrack Squad, allowing them to Assault you.
...Yep, you're doomed. :3
Quote:
Ah a mostly focused on description chappie. Now all those questions come into perspective, Would've been perfect except for one thing...

*throws Avenger's Shield at Eva, then follows with Judgement of Vengeance, Holy Shock and Crusader Strike*

Burn the Errant Grammar, Kill the Typodaemon, Purge the Pointlessly-Inserted-Fanservice!!!
Yeah, that bit...kinda caught me...off-guard...
Quote:
Er... Book got deleted/reformatted, so Hayate had to start afresh... Is this changed in your work?
I thought it was said she retained most of the stuff the Book learned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Hayate has all sorts of options for dealing with melee users. Trips. Binds. Long-range fire. I agree that she will need some melee, but IMO that'd be more for blocks and getting out of an opponent's reach, just enough to let her disengage and run back to range.
If you can't fight up-close, use something to stop the enemy doing the same.
Quote:
Just say that she's part of Carim's security detail then That's her official cover as to why she's there.
Good idea...attachment to a high official is usually good cover. :3

Quote:
Originally Posted by JINNSK View Post
According to リリカルSympathy(This interview explains about Hayate),Hayate seems to be able to use most magic spells that Reinforce I owned.



(But her magic takes time.so I think she is not suitable to close range battle)

Spoiler for omake:
Hmmm...nobody has a translation of these, do they? (Don't go out of your way to do it; that's a lot to translate, and if nobody has it don't worry.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Looks like Keroko has fallen to Touhou...

I'm plotting crack. No estimated time as I'm feeling worse and worse with each passing day at work...
Aww...*pats Kriss's head*

Ganbatte, and don't give up the crack! There's much- *static* *static*

*sounds of someone being dragged off*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I thought the general consensus was that the cyborgs didn't have linker cores? Or am I just talking to TK too much?
I thought they did...can we get an official ruling one way or the other?
Quote:
That's what I figured as well. I actually have a post-StrikerS plan of having Original Jail upgrade the surviving Numbers (Uno through Quattro) by using the captured relics as power sources for their cybernetic enhancements, allowing him to make extensive upgrades to their equipment and capabilities and putting the cyborgs on par with the Aces, since they've all effectively turned into Artificial Relic Weapons.
Eep...Relic-powered cyborgs.

You have just given me an...interesting...idea...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
*coughhackchoke* Wha? Last I checked Righteous Defense > Taunt by a rather large margin.
Pallies are the experts in multi-tanking...
Quote:
Damn overpowered assaults. -_-
*hands Keroko crack purgation medicines*
Quote:
There is no 'skilled enough to sneak up on Hayate' sneaking up on oponents is a regularely used tactic in Nanoha, which means that Hayate is just as much a potential victim to it as anyone else.
Which is all the more reason why she should stick to the back lines. She's good at artillery; let her stay behind the rest of the fighters to give her that much more cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Needs targeting macros to be effective, like the one I have for BoP, which then begs the chance of said person pulling an aggro-dump, and I waste the RD/BoP.

But its still theorycrafting. I've never done tankadin at 70 as I sold my pally before BC came along. Now we'll have to depend on Crushridge to have the final verdict.

Though if a mob is resistant to Taunt, does it resist RD?
Theorycrafting...every time I see that word my eyes kinda glaze over...

Taunt and RD both count as spells for resist purposes, though. They both can get resisted.
Quote:
I'm Tau; I'm so scared that I have to stick a big fat Fish in the way of assaulters as a good luck charm. And even after all that 5th Ed gimping, I'm still wondering if I can take on Ghaz's Ravenwing proper with my Farsight list.
Tau never did like getting into the middle of the fight...
Quote:
In other words, Rogues destroy Mages, anywhere, any timeline.
My friend plays a Mage; he's fallen to the Rogue plenty of times. And every time he does, we laugh. :3

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
That's one thing that bothers me... the sneaking up bit.

The devices can pick up life forms from easily detectable signatures, through solid buildings from hundreds of meters away, but they don't seem to notice enemies a stones throw away flanking you.

I can understand decoy shots and then quick jinks to take advantage of the drawn attention...

But things like Signum's counterstrike against Fate in the first fight in A's... she just comes right up in front of her as if out of nowhere, not so much as a warning from Bardiche, or anyone else for that matter. Being all but alone in that barrier area, you'd figure Bardiche would have noticed something like, Signum's thermal signature closing the distance and give a head's up. I know I'd appreciate the extra information a little sooner than: "BLOCKING SWORD NOW! THANK YOU!" You know, even with magic, she's not a mage version of Solid Snake, she's a Cloud Knight... She's going to be giving off some kind of signature, thermal, magical... whatever. Hell, with some of her armor and Levantin being metal, she probably has a freakin' Radar Crossection. (The RCS would be exageration of course, I doubt devices would be pumping out Radar while being HELD in a person's hands.)

In fact, it continues into StrikerS, where at the begining, Raising Heart confirms the entire testing area to be all clear of bystanders before they begin. Yet devices seem to have a hard time finding people with no special stealth attributes.

It's real hit and miss, and I chalk it up to another default of 7arcs...

So that leaves us with the 'how do we incorporate it so it makes sense?' angle.
*Ponder ponder...*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Simplest answer in my opinion is cloacking. Devices could be able to jam the scanning of other Devices, cloaking the presence if the wielder doesn't want to be found. It's not so much an attribute of the mage, but an attribute of the Device. Basically, as long as you don't do stuff that is too fancy, you can cloack yourself from passive scans. An active scan (such as a Wide Area Search) would still detect you, but without the mage actually casting that spell, the low level scans won't be able to find a mage who doesn't want to to be found.
Do note that every time these scans missed people was when they didn't want to be found, and they only time they were found they either revealed themselves or people were actively searching for them.

That would probably be the best explanation here...Devices cancel out other Devices without something happening.
Quote:
I usually went "Assault squad! Markerlight! Markerlight! Markerlight! Fire! Fire!Fire! Kill! Kill!Kill!" after which they were usually dead. But then, if you have two or three squads firing with BS 5, rapid fire and 30" range, you tend to kill stuff rather quickly. :3

Downside being that all other squads suddenly had a chance to close in. But if the assault squads died, my chances usually rose.
The old "hose 'em down" eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
You give me too much credit. We'll probably be on the 7th incarnation and Kha will have found a way to take over the world through Khrack.
Don't sell yourself short...just keep at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Just as planned.
So you were behind this! Get him!

*charges after Kha brandishing about twenty different weapons*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint X View Post
I Beg to differ in Novus, where the mages/mystics are zomfghaxpwn almost everyone, can dodgetank mobs, and...

*is dragged*
Mages can kill Rogues, but it usually involves stupidity and/or carelessness on the part of the Rogue...

...which rarely happens if you want to live as a Rogue.
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Old 2008-06-28, 14:22   Link #2030
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Yeah, there's this macro that RD's the Target's Target, thus making the RD turn into a Taunt (and doing what you've described in 1 button). It'll be very hard especially with lag to react faster than this. Maybe I should try Leo with this instead of a respecced pally.
Never been much of a macro user. Too much hassle when working with other comps or when reinstalling one. Never needed them either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
The Assaulters usually have tricks of their own too... Some even use their Assault squad to lure my guns into a trap; I got an Orb Strike on my FWs before.
Yeah, well, the same thing would have happened with assaulters anyway. Keeping my units far apart, but just close enough that they can lend their support or finish of an assault squad that got lucky before they can do more damage has worked for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint X View Post
I Beg to differ in Novus, where the mages/mystics are zomfghaxpwn almost everyone, can dodgetank mobs, and...

*is dragged*
Novus? Link please. After the disapointing discovery of trying to play Mabinogi (Europe T_T) I'm looking for a new free-to-play MMO to play on the off-day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LimitedEternal View Post
*hands Keroko crack purgation medicines*
Too late. Touhou is already taking firm root.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-06-28 at 17:03.
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Old 2008-06-28, 15:05   Link #2031
Tempy
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Too late. Touhou is already taking firm root.
Just as planned.
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Old 2008-06-28, 15:14   Link #2032
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Novus? Link please. After the disapointing discovery of trying to play Mabinogi (T_T) I'm looking for a new free-to-play MMO to play on the off-day.
Tell me if you find anything good. I'm looking for something intriguing too and I haven't gotten into Mabinogi that much yet.

*runs off in random direction from which he came*
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Old 2008-06-28, 20:58   Link #2033
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Never been much of a macro user. Too much hassle when working with other comps or when reinstalling one. Never needed them either
After living on Wowhead forums for a while, I've begun to macro everything. And save the little macro .txt file everytime I update it onto a thumbdrive in my wallet for portable justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yeah, well, the same thing would have happened with assaulters anyway. Keeping my units far apart, but just close enough that they can lend their support or finish of an assault squad that got lucky before they can do more damage has worked for me.
Which is where the game turns into chess. Especially when its versus Space Marines, playing Farsight just feels so much like Xingke against Britainnia.

(Yes I just finished painting Farsight! )

Now if only I was as awesome a commander as Xingke/Lelouch...
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Old 2008-06-29, 00:04   Link #2034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
...

Spoiler for Exempt from episode 18:


...

Gah! Crack! Go away! I don't even know a thing about Touhou, why is this crack assaulting me!?
...
*smacks Keroko for opening up a proverbial can-o-worms*

You DO realise that computes, right, even when it shouldn't?
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Old 2008-06-29, 00:05   Link #2035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I usually went "Assault squad! Markerlight! Markerlight! Markerlight! Fire! Fire!Fire! Kill! Kill!Kill!" after which they were usually dead. But then, if you have two or three squads firing with BS 5, rapid fire and 30" range, you tend to kill stuff rather quickly. :3

Downside being that all other squads suddenly had a chance to close in. But if the assault squads died, my chances usually rose.
lol dude, Ravenwing is a pure bike/attack bike/land speeder army.

That and all of it's bike is scouting.

Sure you've got 30 inch range, but i have 3+ invuls when I turbo boost, and chances are, I am going to be coming up on your weakest flank to deal as much damage as I can XD

Objective combat wise, I would own you like NOBODY'S business since I can get in, grab the objective, and get the hell out of there XD
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Old 2008-06-29, 00:44   Link #2036
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Which is where the game turns into chess. Especially when its versus Space Marines, playing Farsight just feels so much like Xingke against Britainnia.

(Yes I just finished painting Farsight! )

Now if only I was as awesome a commander as Xingke/Lelouch...
/me sighs

If you think Xingke and Lelouch are awesome commanders... *shakes head* I blame this on poor exposure.
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Old 2008-06-29, 01:37   Link #2037
ghazghkull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Which is where the game turns into chess. Especially when its versus Space Marines, playing Farsight just feels so much like Xingke against Britainnia.

(Yes I just finished painting Farsight! )

Now if only I was as awesome a commander as Xingke/Lelouch...
LMAO

Chess?!

CHESS?!

CHESS?!

You haven't played Warhammer's version of chess until you play Warhammer Fantasy! XD

*Flank charges Kha himself with Bretonnian Errant Knight Formation at S6 and overruns*
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Old 2008-06-29, 04:05   Link #2038
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
/me sighs

If you think Xingke and Lelouch are awesome commanders... *shakes head* I blame this on poor exposure.
This is what I call, not reading enough books.

Lelouch pales in comparison

of

all

these

guys.
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Old 2008-06-29, 06:14   Link #2039
Saint X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheba View Post
this Is What I Call, Not Reading Enough Books.

Lelouch Pales In Comparison

of

all

these

guys.
all Hail Rommel!
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Old 2008-06-29, 06:37   Link #2040
Kha
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Hey I'm an otaku, so don't expect me to read for entertainment. If you want to see how I live IRL, look at Konata!
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