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Old 2008-07-08, 09:26   Link #2421
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Heh, to be honest, I despise that test. Basically that test says "Any character that has acomplished anything even remotely of importance is a Mary Sue." The only way to pass that test is to make your character an unimportant chracter with no tallents or special tings. Now where is the fun in that? In that case just name him 'generic NPC #1293' and be done with it. -_-

I also ignore any question that compares me to the character, because quite frankly, whether a character is based on me has no relation whatsoever to how the character is read by other people. Seriously, even profesional writers base their characters and stories on the things and people they know or have experienced. Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings based on his own experiences. Are we saying that the best selling book worldwide, second only to the bible (Jesus scored a whoopin 85 by the way) is a Sue filled book? in my opinion the best rules to hold whether a character is a Mary Sue or not is to simply compare them to the heroes and ask 'is my character superior to them in every way?' if yes, then you most likely need to rewrite a thing or two. Not just because your character has a few tallents of his own.

As the test itself says:

"Again, keep in mind that the test isn't always correct. Morpheus from the Sandman Comics scored nearly 70 points, and yet we don't believe he's a Mary-Sue. He's well developed, suffers the consequences of several major personality flaws, and has very few powers or talents besides those necessary to perform the duties of his station. Of course, research, an interesting story, and good writing always help too. "


So don't take that test seriously, its far too limited.
Don't forget that the test also means if you have a female OC and she's say successful in a certain time period... Or doesn't dress right, or doesn't have the right job... It makes her somewhat Mary-Sue.

Quote:
Dice, just grab a d4, assign one to each number, and roll away.

Dice fix everything. :3
But that doesn't take into account the fact Rune is good at poker and that Vivio and Keroko are both bad at hiding their emotions Since this is also Vivio from RebelS TSS has said she's very stubborn so she's one to play a hand all the way even if her hand is crappy... Keroko is also impulsive so I can picture her as being the kind to do stupid bets and stuff a lot
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Old 2008-07-08, 09:27   Link #2422
Comartemis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
Personally, my tests for seeing whether a character is a Sue is a lot simpler:
  • Does the plot revolve entirely around the character, to the expense and detriment of every other character?
  • If so, is the plot interesting?
My own personal test is simpler still:

Within the context of your story, does the original character exist to highlight the strengths of the CCs, or do the CCs exist to highlight the awesomeness of your character? In other words, does your character replace the CCs, or does he/she supplement them? This is a constant thought I keep in my head while I'm working on Alex. In spite of his heritage (which I could've used to grant him something of a Superpowered Evil Side or awesome demonic powers) he's not that much more powerful than any of the other characters, and mostly that's just Nanoha while she's still starting out.
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Old 2008-07-08, 09:34   Link #2423
Keroko
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^ That's basically the rule that keeps Kerokanon spinning. Sure, there are times when the acts of CC's can highlight the strength of your OC, but as with all things, keep them in measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
But that doesn't take into account the fact Rune is good at poker and that Vivio and Keroko are both bad at hiding their emotions Since this is also Vivio from RebelS TSS has said she's very stubborn so she's one to play a hand all the way even if her hand is crappy... Keroko is also impulsive so I can picture her as being the kind to do stupid bets and stuff a lot
And stubborn. Keroko is also very stubborn. Yet another trait she and Vivio share.
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Old 2008-07-08, 09:41   Link #2424
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And stubborn. Keroko is also very stubborn. Yet another trait she and Vivio share.
Ah see? This isn't something that can be simulated by dice effectively!

Ghaz said to draw the hands out myself but I don't have an actual deck of cards in my room. Just one that somehow seems to contain mostly 5's.
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Old 2008-07-08, 10:08   Link #2425
Kha
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"July. Southern wet month, with short drenched days, enshrouded in 24-hour shitstorms. I've braved gunfire and crooks, but to say that I'm unbreakable on blue days is such a lie. Sometimes, I hit a molded patch and just stare at the obsidian abyss crying foul from above. Unmoving, wallowing.

"The cross weighed heavy in my hand, as the rain poured like bullets from the sky, pressing down on my being with the weight of fate that weave my journeys..."






Quote:
Originally Posted by kazenoyuuchi View Post
I don't believe it... I actually forgot Fate! Wouldn't be surprise if Kha decides to shoot me...
*glares at Kaze, then pats his head*

You've done very well for a rookie. Why would I shoot you for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
My own personal test is simpler still:

Within the context of your story, does the original character exist to highlight the strengths of the CCs, or do the CCs exist to highlight the awesomeness of your character? In other words, does your character replace the CCs, or does he/she supplement them? This is a constant thought I keep in my head while I'm working on Alex. In spite of his heritage (which I could've used to grant him something of a Superpowered Evil Side or awesome demonic powers) he's not that much more powerful than any of the other characters, and mostly that's just Nanoha while she's still starting out.
I try my best to make everyone better than Kha because it is so easy to turn him into a Sue. I have to watch my every step, shaft him as often as I can, try to do as much as possible without him. In Warhammer terms, I always hold him in reserve, and Deep Strike him to where he's needed only when it is absolutely necessary, or when plot dictates. I almost never start with him on the deployment zone.

I just hope that is enough.




"...but I shake my coat and sheathed my cross.

"I can't give up. I must go on."
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Old 2008-07-08, 11:08   Link #2426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
There's nothing to change. It's either I continue or stop.
*Smacks Kha around* Stop being a baby! Nothing's black or white like that in the writing world! Ideas and characters bend and change and always end up better for it. Few people get it right the first time, or the second time, or even fifth, that doesn't mean he's unsalvageable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
[I]
I try my best to make everyone better than Kha because it is so easy to turn him into a Sue. I have to watch my every step, shaft him as often as I can, try to do as much as possible without him. In Warhammer terms, I always hold him in reserve, and Deep Strike him to where he's needed only when it is absolutely necessary, or when plot dictates. I almost never start with him on the deployment zone.

I just hope that is enough.
As long as kha doesn't end up being a Deux-ex-machina who single-handily turns the tide of battle. There's no reason to ignore and shaft him, if you aren't willing to try saving Kha then he doesn't stand a chance.
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Old 2008-07-08, 12:51   Link #2427
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@Kha: If you think you've changed him enough that you can not recognize him from the original version anymore, then give yourself a pat on the back and congratulate yourself for a job well done. It's not an easy feat to chop your characters down in size just so that everyone is pleased with it. Aaron had done it before, and so had us, and we can relate how painful it is to see our characters, so grand and glorious before, but now looking just like a normal citizen in the street of the world. You may not be able to see it, but I think your characters are quite normal if given the right selections (obviously, backstories as backstories must, not all are applicable in the correct sense), so there's no need to worry about them being Mary Sues at all. And for authors borrowing your characters, there is always cooperation to reduce any excessive embellishments to fit the story, not the other way around.

Note: Leona scores 48 points in the litmus test, and is considered a Mary Sue according to the scale. She has a little of the element, but mostly penalized for having a nice, beautiful name the author(s) of the test is/are just jealous of.
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Old 2008-07-08, 12:56   Link #2428
Tempy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
"...but I shake my coat and sheathed my cross.

"I can't give up. I must go on."
Max Payne, much?

Seriously, Kha, there's nothing I can say that everyone else hasn't. Pick up the pieces and get back to work. It's up to us, the readers, to decide of Kha is a Mary Sue or not. Every OC has the potential to be MS, even those with low scores. It's not about how much you nerf the character, but the role he plays and how you present it as such. Do not think of it as a burden or sin, but a challenge to your writing skill. Can you present a story that is enjoyable, believable, entertaining, and original, without becoming over-the-top and annoyingly typical?

I expect you can.

Just know when to hold back. They say too many chefs spoil the soup. Too many ideas can spoil the character. I haven't been here all that long, but as Keroko said, I'll help too.
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Old 2008-07-08, 14:58   Link #2429
Kyral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
I think this might be quite the prudent litmus test for Mary-Sue tests :3

Linkage
Elric is 44.
Thanks to stuff like his "dangerous" nickname (Mage of Carnage) and 'tragic' past.

Rinya is 13.
It may be higher if there was a option like: "got into a fight with her dad and joined the military" but that is not very mary-sue like isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Hmm. Noland scored a 16. Yay.

I would also point this one out:

Linkage

Got an 8 with that one :3
On this one:
Elric 12
Rinya 10

ah well...
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Old 2008-07-08, 15:00   Link #2430
ghazghkull
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Well these tests aren't supposed to be taken seriously to that extent

But it is amusing to see how they are considered Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu by these 'standards'

XD
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Old 2008-07-08, 15:37   Link #2431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
I think this might be quite the prudent litmus test for Mary-Sue tests :3

Linkage
Hmmm...Shamsel scored a 21. Not too bad I guess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
AMV parody of Vampire Fate from FF thread much?
It was a last-minute decision for that addition

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
Short profile but he's a device so how long can I make it
Those who hang out in the FFT will recognize him :3. Falling Soul is Vivio's (RebelS version) device. RebelS is the OC fic I have stirring in the FFT (I might start duel posting it over here but the idea still scares me )
Oh come on. We're not that scary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I meant that you picked Fate to like. Fate is the number 1 favourite character in Nanoha. Aaron and I went for the slighlty less liked characters.
>_>

<_<

Vivio ftw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
There's nothing to change. It's either I continue or stop.
Oh come on. It's just some unofficial test. Unless you're having fun (and no one's out to kill you...more than we already are ) leave em be and we'll watch Kha get beaten up my Sophia time and time again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Wait wait wait, you mean that you put the Warp, the immaterium, the barrier between them, the Belkans being responsible for that barrier, Daemons and all thatin your profile and you have no idea what Warhammer 40K is?
*shrug*

I've only heard of 40K from that awesome Eva cross-over fic

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Don't forget that the test also means if you have a female OC and she's say successful in a certain time period... Or doesn't dress right, or doesn't have the right job... It makes her somewhat Mary-Sue.
Evangeline uses a full-body armoed BJ which in itself is out of place

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And stubborn. Keroko is also very stubborn. Yet another trait she and Vivio share.
And we still love them
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Old 2008-07-08, 15:38   Link #2432
FlameSparkZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
Personally, my tests for seeing whether a character is a Sue is a lot simpler:
  • Does the plot revolve entirely around the character, to the expense and detriment of every other character?
  • If so, is the plot interesting?

The reason why Original Characters are stereotypically seen to be Sues by default is that people tend not to want to read about our creations, they want to read about the canon characters as they are (or as they can plausibly be extrapolated). Hijacking the whole "rubber sheet" theory of gravitation, the more the original character's plot mass, the more they distort the story around them. If the mass is enough to form a black hole (or close enough), that's a Sue.

And it doesn't matter if the character is interesting nonetheless. If a character's background allows him to be who he is, in a way that makes readers nod and say "that makes sense", then it's all fine. But if the background reads like a litany of angst and complaints, then readers are likely to be less forgiving.

Part of the challenge here is in trying to make the backgrounds of our OCs in summary sound interesting enough that it doesn't overwhelm everyone else. The history of Spider-man may have earned him his rightful legion of fans over the years, but trying to summarize everything to a new reader is likely to result in complete confusion, followed by complete disinterest.
Quite true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Heh, to be honest, I despise those tests. Basically that test says "Any character that has acomplished anything even remotely of importance is a Mary Sue." The only way to pass that test is to make your character an unimportant character with no tallents or special things. Now where is the fun in that? In that case just name him 'generic NPC #1293' and be done with it. -_-

The questions re incomplete too, I can think of various Mary Sue related subjects that are not on the test, but are certainly the very things Mary Sues are made off.

I also ignore any question that compares me to the character, because quite frankly, whether a character is based on me has no relation whatsoever to how the character is read by other people. Seriously, even profesional writers base their characters and stories on the things and people they know or have experienced. Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings based on his own experiences. Are we saying that the best selling book worldwide, second only to the bible (Jesus scored a whoopin 85 by the way) is a Sue filled book? in my opinion the best rules to hold whether a character is a Mary Sue or not is to simply compare them to the heroes and ask 'is my character superior to them in every way?' if yes, then you most likely need to rewrite a thing or two. Not just because your character has a few tallents of his own.

As the test itself says:

"Again, keep in mind that the test isn't always correct. Morpheus from the Sandman Comics scored nearly 70 points, and yet we don't believe he's a Mary-Sue. He's well developed, suffers the consequences of several major personality flaws, and has very few powers or talents besides those necessary to perform the duties of his station. Of course, research, an interesting story, and good writing always help too. "


So don't take that test seriously, its far too limited.

For the curious:

Keroko: 48, not surprising, angsty past, last surviving member of a calamity, reformed a criminal (Tesla), one of the Aces. Nope, no surprise there. Though I had to mark 'nursed back by a kind and loving person' because my mind fails to compute Shamal as anything else.

Tesla:
19, well if the quiz branched more on the intelectual part or the 'immortal, god fae etc.' part (there were no questions that related to the Wolkenritter, even though its easy to think of a few) I have little doubt she would have come out as a Sue. As it stand though, not having had a familly to lose seems to be an advantage she holds over Keroko.

Uomo:
15, again no real questions that branch into him. Had they branched into evil characters, his rating would have skyrocketed. Not having any parents to lose also helped (they really should add 'product of experiments' to that list)

Syn:
15, no surprise here either, except this time in a positive way. Syn is by far the most normal character I have written. No emo past, no complicated things about her body, and she hasn't risen to fame yet to bother with all the 'well known' things. I did skip the high-school part though.

Again, I ignored any question comparing me to my characters.
Oh...I see...

In my case...Koji scored a 62 >_>
The test is very limited indeed, there isn't even a choice about the character solving a problem WITH the other characters, as in together. as in teamwork...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
So I tried running Ivey through the Mary Sue test.

She scored 80. And she's not even the main character of the story.

Spoiler for The long and involved breakdown:


I just find this amusing because I've submitted Ivey twice for approval, and both times received "well-balanced character" in response.
80?!

The test would have to be more specific to accurately point out Mary-Sueness...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
Well these tests aren't supposed to be taken seriously to that extent

But it is amusing to see how they are considered Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu by these 'standards'

XD
True, the test is simply a way to measure the Mare-Sue levels on the character...not very accurate though...
And I'm either reading those questions wrong, or most of the situations to choose from don't apply to the character I'm using as test subject...

But yeah...let's not give too much importance to the test...
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Old 2008-07-08, 20:31   Link #2433
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
*Smacks Kha around* Stop being a baby! Nothing's black or white like that in the writing world! Ideas and characters bend and change and always end up better for it. Few people get it right the first time, or the second time, or even fifth, that doesn't mean he's unsalvageable.



As long as kha doesn't end up being a Deux-ex-machina who single-handily turns the tide of battle. There's no reason to ignore and shaft him, if you aren't willing to try saving Kha then he doesn't stand a chance.
...there was this one time in the Rebuilt timeline where I made him Gandalf the White...

Even though he can hold his own against a horde (Weapon Skill 5, Strength 7, 5 attacks, high Initiative, lots of wounds, 4+ Invulnerable save), due to his short range (Ballistic Skill 3) his biggest impact was buffing the grunts up, flash-healing injuries and inspiring them (army-wide +1 to Wound and Initiative, letting any unit within LOS use his Leadership value, and in a shooting phase allow 1 model in LOS to avoid being removed immediately after wound on a 3+ roll) such that they fight better, and thus influencing the turn of the tide.

And is why Kha is so expensive in points. Oh and non-40K fans you can ignore the values.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
@Kha: If you think you've changed him enough that you can not recognize him from the original version anymore, then give yourself a pat on the back and congratulate yourself for a job well done. It's not an easy feat to chop your characters down in size just so that everyone is pleased with it. Aaron had done it before, and so had us, and we can relate how painful it is to see our characters, so grand and glorious before, but now looking just like a normal citizen in the street of the world. You may not be able to see it, but I think your characters are quite normal if given the right selections (obviously, backstories as backstories must, not all are applicable in the correct sense), so there's no need to worry about them being Mary Sues at all. And for authors borrowing your characters, there is always cooperation to reduce any excessive embellishments to fit the story, not the other way around.

Note: Leona scores 48 points in the litmus test, and is considered a Mary Sue according to the scale. She has a little of the element, but mostly penalized for having a nice, beautiful name the author(s) of the test is/are just jealous of.
I guess I was just too sensitive to test scores, something ingrained to me as a child growing up in Singapore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Max Payne, much?

Seriously, Kha, there's nothing I can say that everyone else hasn't. Pick up the pieces and get back to work. It's up to us, the readers, to decide of Kha is a Mary Sue or not. Every OC has the potential to be MS, even those with low scores. It's not about how much you nerf the character, but the role he plays and how you present it as such. Do not think of it as a burden or sin, but a challenge to your writing skill. Can you present a story that is enjoyable, believable, entertaining, and original, without becoming over-the-top and annoyingly typical?

I expect you can.

Just know when to hold back. They say too many chefs spoil the soup. Too many ideas can spoil the character. I haven't been here all that long, but as Keroko said, I'll help too.
Yeah I'm thinning the broth now, though it's easier once I convince myself that I don't have 1000 Ramses screaming at every ingredient and method I used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Oh come on. It's just some unofficial test. Unless you're having fun (and no one's out to kill you...more than we already are ) leave em be and we'll watch Kha get beaten up my Sophia time and time again
Erm, yeah...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Evangeline uses a full-body armoed BJ which in itself is out of place
I've long convinced myself that coffin-armor is a character distinction rather than an anomaly.
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Old 2008-07-09, 00:48   Link #2434
Tk3997
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Hiyo thread I went away from the week end and though I read through the backlog I don't have much motivation to post a breaker so none of that. The Mary Sue test looks like it might be good for a few minutes amusement though so let's give it a whirl. Since he's basically my flagship char I used Felix:
Spoiler for Detailed Result:
So total it up and he got a 9… Apparently being kind of old, average looking, not that well known, human, and a bit of an asshole is a good way to avoid being a Sue according to this test. Course I didn't need a test to tell me this.

As for Kha being all emo I'm not even going to touch that besides I've seen it before he'll get over it in a day and maybe be slightly better off for the tough thinking it made him do... maybe.
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Old 2008-07-09, 01:47   Link #2435
USB500
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Post song ATM: Keine's Drawing Song

Hmm... it's time to curb the madness and post epic story.

-------------------

Spoiler for prologue:


==========

Spoiler for Part 1: The Place The Gods and People Loved:


What will happen when Outer Cadia meets Touhou? Will Takeru survive the moon rabbit hordes and get out of the bridge in one piece? What is really Zafira thinking about Momizi? And most important of all, where in the name of Suwako have Shamal and Hikki gone to?

As usual, don't expect it to be updated ASAP (though I've wanted the premise to be short) and also don't expect it to be clean of any and all services (as the two chapters have shown ).

*goes to prepare for tomorrow's job interview*
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Old 2008-07-09, 02:43   Link #2436
Tempy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USB500 View Post
Hmm... it's time to curb the madness and post epic story.

-------------------

Spoiler for prologue:


==========

Spoiler for Part 1: The Place The Gods and People Loved:


What will happen when Outer Cadia meets Touhou? Will Takeru survive the moon rabbit hordes and get out of the bridge in one piece? What is really Zafira thinking about Momizi? And most important of all, where in the name of Suwako have Shamal and Hikki gone to?

As usual, don't expect it to be updated ASAP (though I've wanted the premise to be short) and also don't expect it to be clean of any and all services (as the two chapters have shown ).

*goes to prepare for tomorrow's job interview*
Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm.

This is relevant to my interests. Thusly, I present this in response!

Spoiler for Elsewhere...:


Edit: This is not to be taken canonical with USB's story... unless he wants it to be :3
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Old 2008-07-09, 03:10   Link #2437
PhoenixG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USB500 View Post
Hmm... it's time to curb the madness and post epic story.

-------------------

Spoiler for prologue:


==========

Spoiler for Part 1: The Place The Gods and People Loved:


What will happen when Outer Cadia meets Touhou? Will Takeru survive the moon rabbit hordes and get out of the bridge in one piece? What is really Zafira thinking about Momizi? And most important of all, where in the name of Suwako have Shamal and Hikki gone to?

As usual, don't expect it to be updated ASAP (though I've wanted the premise to be short) and also don't expect it to be clean of any and all services (as the two chapters have shown ).

*goes to prepare for tomorrow's job interview*
:O :O
A touhou crossover.
two nitpicks:
Reinforce zwei doesn't call Hayate "Hayate-sama", but Hayate-chan

And I thought there were only earth rabbits (excluding Reisen, she is a moon rabbit) in Eientei. :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm.

This is relevant to my interests. Thusly, I present this in response!

Spoiler for Elsewhere...:


Edit: This is not to be taken canonical with USB's story... unless he wants it to be :3
and I guess this should be Tempest's icecream/bar shop ^.^;;;
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Old 2008-07-09, 03:15   Link #2438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixG View Post
:O :O
A touhou crossover.
two nitpicks:
Reinforce zwei doesn't call Hayate "Hayate-sama", but Hayate-chan

And I thought there were only earth rabbits (excluding Reisen, she is a moon rabbit) in Eientei. :/
Post corrected.

And the bunny girls scene were taken from an IN doujin I have (forgot its title, though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixG View Post
and I guess this should be Tempest's icecream/bar shop ^.^;;;
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Old 2008-07-09, 03:46   Link #2439
PhoenixG
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Silent sinner in blue? but that happend on the moon ^.^;;
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Old 2008-07-09, 04:08   Link #2440
Tempy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USB500 View Post
Post corrected.

And the bunny girls scene were taken from an IN doujin I have (forgot its title, though).


Udonge is the only moon rabbit. All other rabbits are youkai earth rabbits.

And now, something once again non-canonical to USB's fic but amuses me greatly.

>_>

<_<

...

:3

*drops this and RUNS*

Spoiler for Ordinary Stranger:
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