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Old 2008-07-18, 15:06   Link #2821
Sheba
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It's not just magic, it is also technology, the shift in political power between the main powers of that time. It's similar to throwing a stone in a lake, where the resulting ripples are getting bigger and bigger. What a mage would do if he get caught by the spanish inquisition? He may likely side with the spanish royalty to save his life and in the long run, it will be not just the native americans who get screwed over, but also China, Japan and the Ottoman empire. Have you ever seen the movie "The Butterfly Effect"? It is just like that in a way bigger scale.
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Old 2008-07-18, 15:14   Link #2822
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by comartemis View Post
Well so long as we have the understanding that humans have untapped magical potential we can work with history to make it so the native magic-users aren't wiped out in the Middle Ages.
Considering their lack of numbers and influence, the native magic-users are effectively a non-factor in the Belkans' survival.

Quote:
Stripped of most of their tech and the means to make more--devices included--only the Kaiser and her bodyguards would be in any real position to fend off barbarian hoards and the Kaiser would have to cooperate with Earth's native mages to ensure the survival of her people in a foreign environment.
That would mean she's an idiot. The native mages aren't in a position to secure her people's survival, the local kingdoms are. Offer their services and knowledge to a suitable kingdom, and let them guard her and her people against the hostile locals. Then you'll be back where you started with the first draft. In a few decades, they'll have made significant advances to their patron's tech base, even without using their magic. Again, where's the need to hide?

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This pays off in the long run when one of her descendants--Arturia--creates a pocket dimension like the Garden of Time to serve as a refuge for persecuted mages.
There are times when I wonder how much of Nanoha have you watched and how well you remembered it, with the way you seem to keep misinterpeting things. The Garden was an installation in Dimensional Space, not a pocket dimension. It's like a tiny version of Bureau HQ.

As for first contact between Earth and the Bureau, that's real early in Bureau history. In fact, I wonder if Earth had contact with people from across dimensional space even before the Bureau existed. Case in point, the earliest concrete date we have is A's ep 3. Graham says he saved a Bureau clerk over 50 years ago. From A's, that puts the event in MC0015. Yet, in StrikerS, Subaru says Genya's ancestors came to Mid from Earth a long time ago. If they came only after the Bureau was established, the ancestor could only be Genya's parent, but Subaru makes it sound a few generations older than that. Which puts their immgration before the Bureau's existence.
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Old 2008-07-18, 15:43   Link #2823
Evangelion Xgouki
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I dunno how I found this...but this is WIN:

2nd Lt. Cathy Glass
*V.A. - Sanae Kobayashi (Reinforce)

Cpt. Jeffrey Wilder
*V.A. - Tōru Ōkawa (Genya Nakajima)

Alto Saotome
*V.A. - Yuichi Nakamura (Vice Granscenic)


Oh the Macross F cross-overs

And just cause it's cool:

Ozma Lee
*V.A. - Katsuyuki Konishi (Kamina)

And if you haven't seen the duet...YOU MUST WATCH!!
For DECULTURE!!!

*RUNZ*
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Old 2008-07-18, 15:48   Link #2824
Sheba
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BTW, a medieval knight would resent the barbarian comment, they are more civilized than most would like to believe. And the Crusades helped to make their culture richer. That whole medieval knight = cultureless barbarian cliche is mostly the work of misinformation of historians in the 19th century, where they mostly glorified any period before the fall of the Roman Empire and after the fall of Constantinople and around the era of Italian Renaissance.
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Old 2008-07-18, 16:00   Link #2825
Comartemis
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Again, where's the need to hide?
Obviously to keep the Belkans from making significant changes to Earth's history. The important thing is to work the Belkans into the creation of Mundus Magicus; they are the catalyst that keeps Terran mages from completely dying out and leading to the situation we see in the beginning of Nanoha canon. The trick, as you've pointed out, is doing so without interfering overmuch in the established powers of the time and altering history, which was part of the reason why I planted them in the British Isles, which are relatively separate from the rest of Europe and don't (to my knowledge) have an established feudal system until around the time of the Matter of Britain, thus an area for the Belkans to settle down and catch their breath for a while before they begin to rebuild as best as they can. Their knowledge would lead to the creation of a utopic kingdom on the forefront of technology until something, maybe internal strife or a power struggle of some sort brings it crashing down around their ears, sort of... like.... Atlantis?



...and there goes another idea for Belkan origins on Earth, and perhaps the single most cracked-up concept I've ever produced. Ye gods, I really am turning into the son of Kha, aren't I?

Quote:
Yet, in StrikerS, Subaru says Genya's ancestors came to Mid from Earth a long time ago. If they came only after the Bureau was established, the ancestor could only be Genya's parent, but Subaru makes it sound a few generations older than that. Which puts their immgration before the Bureau's existence.
I think you've got your dates screwed up a bit, Jimmy. According to the timeline on the first page, the bureau was established something like 150 years prior to canon; it was only about 75 years ago that they switched over to a completely magical society and adopted the MC calendar.

*Ponders and paces a bit*

So, figure Subaru's ancestors to have come over around 1800 or so, maybe 1875 just as an arbitrary figure. Way off from the 1940s figure I had, but hardly ancient history...
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Old 2008-07-18, 16:08   Link #2826
Sheba
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Do you know what happened in that timeframe between 800 to 1000 years ago?

French happened.

And this invasion pretty much changed the face of England and its relationship with continental europe forever. So do it mean that Belkan lost there has been beaten by frenchmen way inferior technological-wise?
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Old 2008-07-18, 16:09   Link #2827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I think you've got your dates screwed up a bit, Jimmy. According to the timeline on the first page, the bureau was established something like 150 years prior to canon; it was only about 75 years ago that they switched over to a completely magical society and adopted the MC calendar.

*Ponders and paces a bit*

So, figure Subaru's ancestors to have come over around 1800 or so, maybe 1875 just as an arbitrary figure. Way off from the 1940s figure I had, but hardly ancient history...
His dates are correct. StrikerS is in MC0075. A's is in MC0065, and as he said, Graham had found that Bureau Clerk 50 years prior to A's, which does say MC0015.

And from Subaru's statement, we can infer that Mid-Childans themselves made contact with humans, long before any reformation of any sorts took place.
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Old 2008-07-18, 16:17   Link #2828
Comartemis
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And this invasion pretty much changed the face of England and its relationship with continental europe forever. So do it mean that Belkan lost there has been beaten by frenchmen way inferior technological-wise?
No, Sheba. All French jokes aside, Belkans obviously wouldn't lose to a bunch of French soldiers with vastly inferior technology. Chalk the error up to me not knowing enough about the Middle Ages.

...but if you guys are going to spend so much time pointing out holes in my theories, could you spend at least a moment or two to suggest alternatives? 'Cause it would be really swell if I could get some help making the timelines fit together smoothly.
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Old 2008-07-18, 18:28   Link #2829
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Macross Frontier is crack I tell you! CRACK!!

-------------------------

What happens when Nanoha has two people fighting for her attention?

Spoiler for Your Attention Please:
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Old 2008-07-18, 20:01   Link #2830
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All I will say is this, people.

COmar, I have no interest in helping you at the moment. Why? I have been working 10/11 hour shifts nonstop. Last night I came back after a 13-hour nonstop shift. And this is WITH a bruised and hurt stomache that keeps flaring up in pain with each movement - and I have to do a lot of quick moving around, grabbing printed orders and faxing them to stores that aren't connected to the network.

Thus, with this little time of enjoyment that I have, I'm not going to help you. Srew you. I'm writing Macross Crack.

...btw Eva thx for pointing out the Macross crossovers. And OMGWTF Ozma is Kamima?! No wonder he's better than the NUNS pilots. I can see it now... a VF-25S Armored... with GIGA DRILL BREAKER...

MACROSS OVERWHELMING. FOR GREAT MISSILE BUKAKKE.


Oh and Hayaaron fanservice. And Hayate fanservice. And elements of Khanita/Krisnita/Kristemp love/lust polygon.

@PF: FUCK YES HAYAURION FOR THE WIN!!!! All I ask is that you make it more blatant. Oh, and we're not a Legion. More like a squad, or a fireteam. Maybe a section at the most. But THIS IS A PURE AND HOLY PAIRING and NONE SHALL DEPART FROM IT.

*me jumps into VF-19 and afterburners away from Aaron's Wrath*

@Eva X: Fuck YES Macross F crack. What bout my staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar~

So there. It's long long goodbye. Sayonara. Sayonara. Nando datte~
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Old 2008-07-18, 20:31   Link #2831
Kha
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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
I dunno how I found this...but this is WIN:

2nd Lt. Cathy Glass
*V.A. - Sanae Kobayashi (Reinforce)

Cpt. Jeffrey Wilder
*V.A. - Tōru Ōkawa (Genya Nakajima)

Alto Saotome
*V.A. - Yuichi Nakamura (Vice Granscenic)


Oh the Macross F cross-overs

And just cause it's cool:

Ozma Lee
*V.A. - Katsuyuki Konishi (Kamina)

And if you haven't seen the duet...YOU MUST WATCH!!
For DECULTURE!!!

*RUNZ*
Yes with Lowe's research, we knew all this by now. However, after episode 14, there's even more Khrack for a young bridge bunny to go for ol' Genya.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I really am turning into the son of Kha, aren't I?
Unfortunately, you take every idea seriously. I've been giving it all to make 1 background idea fit into the Nanohaverse, and we just had a discussion that in the highlighted how much the old story I'm working on for 5th Ed release doesn't conflict with canon unlike the unkhracked one.

And we object to this "Son of Kha" thingy. It's causing Anita undue distress. Please stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Macross Frontier is crack I tell you! CRACK!!

-------------------------

What happens when Nanoha has two people fighting for her attention?

Spoiler for Your Attention Please:
...maybe its just me not agreeing with it... ...or because I haven't seen the duet video...

Singing Hayate is intriguing though. I recommend using MY GRAVITATION from Seto no Hanayome instead, it would've been more appropiate and funny!

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha GuardianS

Chapter Nine—Decisions
I say again, my desk by now has a PF-labeled dent from all that bowing in reverence.

Loaded with ship episode is loaded though. I'm cried MANLY TEARS of WAFFBLOOD! It's INSPIRATIONAL!!!

Now if only I can stop playing WoW long enough to do Erio some justice. The recent leveling rush is killing meh.
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Old 2008-07-18, 20:47   Link #2832
Comartemis
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Unfortunately, you take every idea seriously.
'Cause every now and then, they can be made to work. The more I think about this Atlantis idea, for instance, the more attractive it sounds compared to getting involved in European history.

Think of the Atlantean island/continent as a colony of the old Belkan Imperium back before they had interdimensional warships or anything resembling magitech, used as a trading post for mages capable of dimensional transit (the Belkans aren't interested in the rest of the planet, they just need a rest stop on the interdimensional highways). The place gets hit by a detonated Lost Logia somewhere along the way that pulls it out of the Atlantic and shoves it half-way across the multiverse into a magic-rich world known to Earth as Mundus Magicus. A few thousand years later when the Belkans have largely assimilated into local culture (and developed separately from the rest of the Empire, so it bears little resemblance to the Belkans as we know them), somebody gets it into their heads to go back to Earth and see how things are going. They don't care much for the witch-hunts and Inquisitions going on in Europe, so the local mages are quietly informed that Stonehenge has room for rent, and a mass exodus of persecuted mages flee en masse into Mundus Magicus until the Middle Ages are over, at which they begin to drift back to Earth a bit.

Quote:
And we object to this "Son of Kha" thingy. It's causing Anita undue distress. Please stop.
And you say I take things too seriously?

Alright, I'll drop it.
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Old 2008-07-18, 21:03   Link #2833
Kha
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
'Cause every now and then, they can be made to work. The more I think about this Atlantis idea, for instance, the more attractive it sounds compared to getting involved in European history.

Think of the Atlantean island/continent as a colony of the old Belkan Imperium back before they had interdimensional warships or anything resembling magitech, used as a trading post for mages capable of dimensional transit (the Belkans aren't interested in the rest of the planet, they just need a rest stop on the interdimensional highways). The place gets hit by a detonated Lost Logia somewhere along the way that pulls it out of the Atlantic and shoves it half-way across the multiverse into a magic-rich world known to Earth as Mundus Magicus. A few thousand years later when the Belkans have largely assimilated into local culture (and developed separately from the rest of the Empire, so it bears little resemblance to the Belkans as we know them), somebody gets it into their heads to go back to Earth and see how things are going. They don't care much for the witch-hunts and Inquisitions going on in Europe, so the local mages are quietly informed that Stonehenge has room for rent, and a mass exodus of persecuted mages flee en masse into Mundus Magicus until the Middle Ages are over, at which they begin to drift back to Earth a bit.
I'm not saying that they can't be made to work; you know my creds by now how stubborn I can be on that. It's just that I stubbornly pursue one idea, you're taking on several at once. If I got some facepalming for pursuing 1 big crazy idea, I can see why you are getting more by taking on several at once.

I'm also not saying that is bad in any sense, just that we're really different people.
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And you say I take things too seriously?

Alright, I'll drop it.
Thanks. I can't really discuss it here; it's not that I take it to seriously or something. It's something of Anita's, but for privacy sake I really can't discuss it. Thanks for understanding...
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Old 2008-07-18, 21:07   Link #2834
Comartemis
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Thanks. I can't really discuss it here; it's not that I take it to seriously or something. It's something of Anita's, but for privacy sake I really can't discuss it. Thanks for understanding...
Then I shall speak no further on it. Lord knows we must do our best to keep our significant others happy lest we suffer the consequences...
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Old 2008-07-18, 21:45   Link #2835
Sheba
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According to Plato, Atlantis, was a naval power that conquered many parts of Western Europe and Africa 9,000 years before the time of Solon, or approximately 9500 BC. After having failed to invade Athens, Atlantis sank into the ocean in one single day.

If you take the 9 milleniums BC into account, you'll be streching the suspension of disbelief way too far. 9th millenium is pretty much the neolithic age and nearing the end of the ice age, even before the bronze age. And believe me, if ancient Belkans tried to invade settlements in that time with their metal weapons, people will very likely remember via paints or oral traditions.

Even by taking the 10th century BC, people of the Iron age WILL remember them. Especially because it was the age of Alexander the Great, or the age of the rise of Rome. Where written archives has become a practice thanks to the egyptians or greeks or maybe even when writing was born (during the sumerian civilization).

Using Atlantis may be seductive, but it will be stretching it way too far.

Hell, my belka, in their own homeworld, has started as old as Uruk, but tech-wise they were between bronze and iron age.

EDIT: And it was the competition, technology and magic-wise, with a "proto-human" race who used a rather primitive form of magic and a rather primitive kind of devices in their warfare that helped them to make progress.
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Old 2008-07-18, 22:04   Link #2836
Comartemis
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While I can see perfectly well where you're coming from with your concerns Sheba, I have to wonder how crucial it is that the Belkan Atlantis be exactly like real world Plato's Atlantis. The basic concept is essentially the same--an advanced civilization from an island nation in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean--the devil's only in the details. For instance, I'd like to see where Plato specifically said 9000 years and why it couldn't be fudged to just be "a really long time ago", say about 500-1500 years ago instead.

I bring this up because of a really high-quality Sailor Moon fanfic I read a long time ago where Atlantis was the center of an interstellar empire that existed thousands of years before the Silver Millennium; it had very little, if anything, to do with Plato's take on Atlantis, yet the fic didn't suffer for it in the slightest. I'm thinking I can do the same thing; play with the mythos to suit the universe rather than binding myself to the conventions of the actual legend of Atlantis. Does that make any sense, or am I explaining this weirdly?
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Old 2008-07-18, 22:40   Link #2837
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
While I can see perfectly well where you're coming from with your concerns Sheba, I have to wonder how crucial it is that the Belkan Atlantis be exactly like real world Plato's Atlantis. The basic concept is essentially the same--an advanced civilization from an island nation in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean--the devil's only in the details. For instance, I'd like to see where Plato specifically said 9000 years and why it couldn't be fudged to just be "a really long time ago", say about 500-1500 years ago instead.

I bring this up because of a really high-quality Sailor Moon fanfic I read a long time ago where Atlantis was the center of an interstellar empire that existed thousands of years before the Silver Millennium; it had very little, if anything, to do with Plato's take on Atlantis, yet the fic didn't suffer for it in the slightest. I'm thinking I can do the same thing; play with the mythos to suit the universe rather than binding myself to the conventions of the actual legend of Atlantis. Does that make any sense, or am I explaining this weirdly?
Two of Plato's dialogues, Timeaus and Critias, hold the only known original references to the island of Atlantis.

http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious...d_critias.html

As to where specifically...

"Solon marvelled at his words, and earnestly requested the priests to inform him exactly and in order about these former citizens. You are welcome to hear about them, Solon, said the priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. She founded your city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old.

As touching your citizens of nine thousand years ago, I will briefly inform you of their laws and of their most famous action; the exact particulars of the whole we will hereafter go through at our leisure in the sacred registers themselves. If you compare these very laws with ours you will find that many of ours are the counterpart of yours as they were in the olden time."

I'm not too keen on having Belka steeped in Earth history. Like Sheba said, the presence of Belkans and their vastly superior technology is bound to have a greater effect than just winning a few battles.

Though when I think of Atlantis, I think of another sunken city.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
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Old 2008-07-18, 22:57   Link #2838
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Who said anything about them being steeped in Earth's history? They show up a few thousand years ago, they set up camp on an almost completely uninhabited chunk of land, they occupy it for a few centuries and keep to themselves, and those who visit the continent are turned away and return home with grossly exaggerated stories of a mythical kingdom instead of a simple colony. Also, this would have been long before the Belkans had reverse-engineered Lost Logia and come up with their superior magitech; at this point they would be just another race of magic-capable humans; ahead of the curve, yes, but not overwhelmingly so. The breakthroughs in LL research that allowed Belka to become a technological superpower would occur after Atlantis disappeared into Mundus Magicus, whereupon they develop into Terran mages as they appear in Negima. The only problem with this scenario is getting a member of the Royal Family to be visiting the outpost when it gets blasted into Mundus Magicus.
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Old 2008-07-18, 22:58   Link #2839
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@Comartemis: You can. Anyway, my take is that rather than hiding out of fear or persecution, they should start assimilating themselves into the local populace. Given their number (if we're following the original version), most of them would get assimilated rather easily, unless they have some otherworldly identifying marks (like symbols, etc.). At that point in time, I'm rather positive that there wasn't any identification card system yet. The only telling point that they are not native is their immense magical and technological knowledge. Suppose, for example, that your Belkans strike a bargain or something to share their technology in exchange for peace, they need not hide and can live in the medieval times rather uneventfully. You need not share everything, only those that you can see fit. We know that Europe underwent the Renaissance Age and Industrial Revolution later, so I rather think that the Belkans were the catalyst to that. This isn't so history-altering, don't you think?

Also, you can make some famous people Belkans (don't ask where I get this idea from), like Albert Einstein, Michelangelo, etc. Radical thinkers or genius or deviants. For transition, it's plausible that although they share their technology, they've always feared to be exploited (students-turning-on-masters issue) and maybe they think that they shouldn't interfere with Earth's politics and development any longer, so the remaining Belkans secretly created an underground society/land/area called Mundus Magicus where they plan to leave Earth some time later.

(At this point in time, it's rather difficult to say whether the Belkans actually left on their own or because TSAB made contact with them. Canon has not stated that Belkans were saved by the Bureau, but rather they had a really long war with them.)
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Old 2008-07-18, 23:03   Link #2840
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Who said anything about them being steeped in Earth's history? They show up a few thousand years ago, they set up camp on an almost completely uninhabited chunk of land, they occupy it for a few centuries and keep to themselves, and those who visit the continent are turned away and return home with grossly exaggerated stories of a mythical kingdom instead of a simple colony. Also, this would have been long before the Belkans had reverse-engineered Lost Logia and come up with their superior magitech; at this point they would be just another race of magic-capable humans; ahead of the curve, yes, but not overwhelmingly so. The breakthroughs in LL research that allowed Belka to become a technological superpower would occur after Atlantis disappeared into Mundus Magicus, whereupon they develop into Terran mages as they appear in Negima. The only problem with this scenario is getting a member of the Royal Family to be visiting the outpost when it gets blasted into Mundus Magicus.
This is inaccurate. The Cradle of the Saint King is a reverse-engineered Lost Logia. If they only discovered this later, how in the world did they get to ride this one?
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