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Old 2008-07-28, 08:02   Link #3061
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hmm, a small problem I ran into, Keroko is not wielding any form of Device in the builds we have so far. Devices are a pretty core part of Nanohaverse, so having Keroko not using one feels... somewhat empty. Now, this is no real problem, but when I went thinking what kind of Device she would wield, my mind made a screeching halt at an old and abandoned idea.

Fate's sword-chucks Riot Blades.

This would mean a complete revise on her pactio, most likely reverting back to the Relic one, but its something that's quite relevant to the Nanoha part of the fusion.
That's not necessary in my opinion. What if Keroko was using a massproduction sword device that came in a card? After her memory wipe, she's only see a card and go "what does this do...?"

This gives her more reason to go Pactio, and inadvertedly gain access to Caliburn.

If you can't tell, well, I'm trying to save Caliburn. <.<

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Or perhaps I can throw Uomo through another Rebuilt, this time making both name and gender suffer as well. Decisions decisions decisions.
Poor cyborg...

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I... see...


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Plenty of conflict. First off, Keroko's mission wasn't supposed to be of hostile nature, she's more of a natural observer then a spy, so she doesn't need to report regularely (and from an observational standpoint from ships in orbit, everything seems to be in order). Secondly, Keroko begins to rapidly recover her memories after the tournament arc, so having people come knocking would only help to advance her recovery rather then hinder it.
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Contrivances, tend to be points of plot that seem so reliant on a diceroll, that they are just unbelievable.

If you have too many events that couldn't happen easier that they seem to almost require the luck of a millionaire gambler to come to reality, your entire approach may actually be flawed because the believability suffers extensively.

With the sheer number of coincidences or Plot Induced Stupidity in some places, you can cripple the story trying to keep all the simple answers from resolving the problem so you can have the drama of the complicated one, and thus you fight with Occam's Razor itself.

Now, I've been skimming silently, getting bits and pieces here and there of the Negima crossover plotting that's been going on... and I can't help but feel that in attempting to drive the two universes together, attempts to do so are simply becoming far too determined.

Especially when the whole Amnesia thing came about. The Amnesia in itself is a Plot Contrivance and a cliche, and I noted almost immediately when it was challenged, you had to come up with an excuse, or rather, more contrivances in order to make it function, and to make those function, even more unlikely events.

Things really start to look contrived when official members of a buraucracy decide under a sudden bout of plot induced stupidity, that someone whom they pay to perform a risky job (Undercover work is not a joke), and have to Insure and Invest resources and money in for training, materials, and mission planning, suddenly isn't worth the resource value to send a search and rescue party. I don't know about your personal world, but trained and experienced operatives are not 'cheap'. And we know Buraucracies love their Bottom Line.

As the contrivances stack, the collective jaws of the people reading start to drop...

I suggest you start investigating your villainy to see how the contivances can be weaved together into a deliberate plot. (And I mean more than simply throwing Chao Lingshen at it and calling it an excuse.) If you can't find a plausable way to seal the plot up that way, step back and observe just how believable things are. You'd be surprised how much gambling you're doing.

I'd much rather prefer events that don't make me feel like I walked into the Magical Girl Lyrical Casino.
ATC raised several valid points here; the TSAB'd have responded sooner rather than later. The only thing I can think of is that the World Tree's magic messes with TSAB scanners (heck it can mess with people's minds, so why not?) and Mahora is undetectable. As such, search teams have been scouring Keroko's last known location (in Kyoto) and turn up empty handed, since she's in the shroud created by Mahora.

The longer she spends there, the less likely they are going to find her, and may call off the search. Then enter Kouya, Lindy and Chrono running their own smaller search. However, even if they search Mahora, Keroko'd be in Wales, then if you really want to be evil, when they get to Wales, she'd be in Mundus Magica. I know one comedy was like this!

So Negiha'd be told from 2 fronts, with Keroko on the Negi side, and Kouya searching from TSAB. Maybe he'd get lucky and finally find some way into Mundus...

(DISCLAIMER: I'm only in Mahorafest, so forgive me if I mix the Negi side of events up! ><)

I think this agrees with both sides, but am I still rolling contrivances...?
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Old 2008-07-28, 08:05   Link #3062
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
The main point though is. How may plot relevant events take place that involve more or less a roll of the dice to come to pass?

I'm not saying you can't get around it. I'm simply warning that if you start using diceroll events to justify or set up diceroll events so your plot can roll how you want it, you're stacking contrivances and going nowhere fast. (Just like NASCAR.) And at that point, your approach to the execution of the plot may need to be worked on.
Define 'roll of the dice.'
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Old 2008-07-28, 08:23   Link #3063
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Define 'roll of the dice.'
A roll of the dice event would be an event so custom tailored that it can only come about one of a few unlikely ways without direct intent to make it happen. Such events, that if you were to say, delay the person involved in it by ten seconds by making them stop to tie their shoes, that it wouldn't happen.

A lot of dramatic last second saves tend to be Roll of the Dice type events. (Especially ones involving explosions with lots of shraptnel...) If they weren't specificly written to beat the odds, chances are they wouldn't have, and you'd have your heros smeared all over the pavement in a nasty mess. But that wouldn't make for a good story if the heroes got smeared, now would it?

An easy to note example of a Diceroll event would be Erio saving Fate near the end of Strikers. Had that boulder fallen sooner, or had he arrived ONE SECOND late... Fate would be a smear. Or perhaps, had the command panel been six feet to the left, the boulder would have landed next to her and given her quite the scare.


If you start hinging too many points of the plot on these type of events, the plot becomes extremely contrived, as the simple introduction of having someone stop to tie their shoes may likely keep the 'chain reaction' of plot points from ever happening, and prevent the story from ever occuring.

Readers will catch onto that, see it and be like:
While we all love to see people beat the odds, gambling is not good storytelling. (Unless the gambling is relisticly portrayed... where lots of your diceroll events end in failure... Final Destination anyone?)

"Rimmer? Can't you tell the story is not gripping me? I im a state, of non-grip-ness. I am comPLETELY SMEGGING un-GRIP-ED! SHUT THE SMEG UP!"
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Old 2008-07-28, 08:28   Link #3064
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Ah I see...

*prods Keroko to his post above*

Just in case.
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Old 2008-07-28, 08:38   Link #3065
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Chao
Oh. Yeah. She probably did what you'll need to do with Keroko. Establish a "normal" profile.

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I picture the contact not be regular, but rather rare. She is there to study, not to spy, she is not meant to have any hostile contact at all.
No matter how irregular the contact is, for her to be out of touch for almost 2 years is certain to send alarms bells ringing at the Bureau. Since this is a study mission and not a spying one, even more reason for her to maintain regular contact. They don't need a ship to keep in touch with her. The Bureau's transdimensional comms work well enough. I think you'll have a problem here. There's no way the Bureau won't send someone after her if she doesn't contact them in 4 to 6 months. In case you're thinking about it, there's no way the agent they send after her is going to go, "Oh, she's alive, going to classes, physically ok. No problems, just wait for her to call again." He'd be even more alarmed that she hasn't made contact even though everything appears ok.
I think there's away for her to maintain contact even without knowing she's doing it. But I also think it would be best if you could solve this problem without resorting to it. So, try to reset her background into one that can disappear for over 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Devices are a pretty core part of Nanohaverse, so having Keroko not using one feels... somewhat empty.
If all she had was a generic S2U before she got zapped, it doesn't matter much, does it? Not everybody needs a unique Intelligent Device, you know.

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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
As such, search teams have been scouring Keroko's last known location (in Kyoto) and turn up empty handed,
The Kyoto debut has been scrapped. She's now starting at Mahora itself. Which is where the problem of her being out of touch for months comes in.
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Old 2008-07-28, 08:50   Link #3066
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The Kyoto debut has been scrapped. She's now starting at Mahora itself. Which is where the problem of her being out of touch for months comes in.
Exactly, with the Kyoto debut, I'm advocating that by adding a few more details covering scanner black-outs and the timing of events, the original idea becomes feasible!

But yeah since its been scrapped, its up to Keroko whether to reinstate it.
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Old 2008-07-28, 08:52   Link #3067
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Hmm, after doing a bit more research, it seems that the core of the problem is not so much the amnesia itself for the purpose of leveling up Keroko (as I initially claimed), but rather that without the amnesia, Keroko doesn't really have a reason to form a paction with Negi. She is perfectly capable of fighting herself, and is a powerfull mage in her own right, what situation would be sufficient for her to form a pactio? The amnesia was my former excuse, as Keroko did not have acess to her Device and powers. However, I think its safe to say that the amnesia introduces way too many plotholes to fill up without raising eyebrows.

I have one possible reason, she forms a pactio with Negi during an attack for research. While she is perfectly capable of handling herself, the situation is perfect to get a pactio, which is a rare and unique method of magic. Negi-tachi co of course don't know of this untill Keroko decides to explain herself, which can now be shifted to somewhere before Chao's attack (as a nice tie-in when Haruna goes "Ah, where is the time police?" Keroko goes "Technically, that would be me.").

It would make a lot more sense that way, Keroko will keep in regular contact with the TSAB, and she has a reason for forming a pactio. I can keep her out of most of the major combat scenarios before the Negi-tachi (or rather those members that aren't there) reach her level.

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If all she had was a generic S2U before she got zapped, it doesn't matter much, does it? Not everybody needs a unique Intelligent Device, you know.
Not planning to, I'm simply giving her a Device, nothing blindingly awesome with multiple forms and whatnot (in fact, the swordchuck form is going to be the only form its capable of taking). More an Armed Device with no intelligence.
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Old 2008-07-28, 08:55   Link #3068
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Hmm, after doing a bit more research, it seems that the core of the problem is not so much the amnesia itself for the purpose of leveling up Keroko (as I initially claimed), but rather that without the amnesia, Keroko doesn't really have a reason to form a paction with Negi. She is perfectly capable of fighting herself, and is a powerfull mage in her own right, what situation would be sufficient for her to form a pactio? The amnesia was my former excuse, as Keroko did not have acess to her Device and powers. However, I think its safe to say that the amnesia introduces way too many plotholes to fill up without raising eyebrows.

I have one possible reason, she forms a pactio with Negi during an attack for research. While she is perfectly capable of handling herself, the situation is perfect to get a pactio, which is a rare and unique method of magic. Negi-tachi co of course don't know of this untill Keroko decides to explain herself, which can now be shifted to somewhere before Chao's attack (as a nice tie-in when Haruna goes "Ah, where is the time police?" Keroko goes "Technically, that would be me.").

It would make a lot more sense that way, Keroko will keep in regular contact with the TSAB, and she has a reason for forming a pactio. I can keep her out of most of the major combat scenarios before the Negi-tachi (or rather those members that aren't there) reach her level.
I already find that FAR more feasable than rolling the dice and laying out a hundred contrivances to make it work.
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Old 2008-07-28, 09:06   Link #3069
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Hmm, after doing a bit more research, it seems that the core of the problem is not so much the amnesia itself for the purpose of leveling up Keroko (as I initially claimed), but rather that without the amnesia, Keroko doesn't really have a reason to form a paction with Negi. She is perfectly capable of fighting herself, and is a powerfull mage in her own right, what situation would be sufficient for her to form a pactio? The amnesia was my former excuse, as Keroko did not have acess to her Device and powers. However, I think its safe to say that the amnesia introduces way too many plotholes to fill up without raising eyebrows.

I have one possible reason, she forms a pactio with Negi during an attack for research. While she is perfectly capable of handling herself, the situation is perfect to get a pactio, which is a rare and unique method of magic. Negi-tachi co of course don't know of this untill Keroko decides to explain herself, which can now be shifted to somewhere before Chao's attack (as a nice tie-in when Haruna goes "Ah, where is the time police?" Keroko goes "Technically, that would be me.").

It would make a lot more sense that way, Keroko will keep in regular contact with the TSAB, and she has a reason for forming a pactio. I can keep her out of most of the major combat scenarios before the Negi-tachi (or rather those members that aren't there) reach her level.
We're saved!

Though this does make my planning a lot more difficult!

Never mind that! I'm not so easily defeated! >:3

Oh and btw, which combats would she be out of?

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Not planning to, I'm simply giving her a Device, nothing blindingly awesome with multiple forms and whatnot (in fact, the swordchuck form is going to be the only form its capable of taking). More an Armed Device with no intelligence.
...and the Artefact?

*ruuuuuuuuuuuunz*
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Old 2008-07-28, 09:10   Link #3070
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Relic, as originally planned. No need for a weapon-type Relic when I'm giving her a Device.
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Old 2008-07-28, 09:26   Link #3071
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It was fun while it lasted. XD

Guess an Errata for Negiha Keroko is needed. Same goes for Kouya; though I think the final touches will have to depend on this settling down a bit more.

*goes back to stirring his Khrack pot*
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Old 2008-07-28, 09:47   Link #3072
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I have one possible reason, she forms a pactio with Negi during an attack for research.
Well done, now the only question is how did she find out what a pactio is in the first place? Not a problem, you have to start the story somewhere. Might as well be here.
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Old 2008-07-28, 09:50   Link #3073
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She's had two years to research magic in the Negima world, not finding out about one of the central pieces of magic in the Negimaverse would mean she was doing a pretty bad job. Sure, she might not know exactly how a pactio works, but after studying mages for two years, I'd expect her to at least know what it is (in fact, knowing what it is but not knowing how it works might even increase her drive for getting one).
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Old 2008-07-28, 09:54   Link #3074
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I'm on fire tonight; Sitting at 12" from 4 threads Rapid Firing the Kli'kn out of everything with my Pulse Rifle. Haven't done that in a loooooong while.



@Keroko: Yes it is looking a lot better, but how do you convince Negi to make one out of nowhere?
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Old 2008-07-28, 10:10   Link #3075
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She's had two years to research magic in the Negima world, not finding out about one of the central pieces of magic in the Negimaverse would mean she was doing a pretty bad job.
Correction, she's been doing that studying as a student in Mahora. If she had been in Wales or Mundus Magicus, you'd be absolutely right. Information about pactios isn't blatantly waved about around there you know. Especially to students.
Not a big problem, her finding out about pactios can be a story in itself. Negi makes pactios with his students and she gradually realises, "There's something like this here and I hadn't seen it all this time?"

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Yes it is looking a lot better, but how do you convince Negi to make one out of nowhere?
Throw a crisis and no other girls around, easiest. The "kiss-match" in the Kyoto trip, the School Festival, he did quite a few there, I recall. Heck, just bribe Chamo with something.
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Old 2008-07-28, 10:14   Link #3076
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The summary? During the Kyoto arc, Keroko goes out on her own, Negi follows her, Monkey girl arives to get rid of the now alone Negi, Negi tries to fight but can't get through the monkeys alone, Keroko offers her help, Chamo speaks up that this would be as good a time as any to form a pactio (Chamo wants as many pactio partners for Negi as possible, remember?), Negi agrees (he's being pressured from both sides after all) and a pactio is formed.

the scene is a bit more comical, as Keroko is very surprised when Chamo tells her what the demands for the pactio are -Keroko figured it'd be a blood-oath thing, which it can be- but quickly gets over it and kisses Negi.

Edit: Ninja's by Jimmy. :P

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Correction, she's been doing that studying as a student in Mahora. If she had been in Wales or Mundus Magicus, you'd be absolutely right. Information about pactios isn't blatantly waved about around there you know. Especially to students.
Not a big problem, her finding out about pactios can be a story in itself. Negi makes pactios with his students and she gradually realises, "There's something like this here and I hadn't seen it all this time?"
She has been studying as a student of Mahora with the intent to study the magic culture on earth. All she had to do to find out about pactios was sniff out the mages (an easy thing, Nanohaverse mages can sense that sort of thing) like Mei for example, wel all know how easilly Negimaverse mages lower their guard and talk about magic, finding out about the existence of pactios should be easy.
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Old 2008-07-28, 10:35   Link #3077
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I dunno about the exact details, but in view of the latest changes Keroko suddenly reminds me of Chiu... Now who knows what she's thinking behind closed doors?
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Old 2008-07-28, 10:38   Link #3078
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The difference betwen Chisame and Keroko is that Chisame doesn't want to get involved with the magic world, Keroko does.
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Old 2008-07-28, 10:42   Link #3079
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No, no, no, I mean, all this undercover stuff makes me wonder what Keroko really is like. I don't know why, but Keroko on the surface and Dark!Keroko underneath suddenly haunted my imagination.

But I guess its just me; Clerics can vary in personalities so it might cloud my interpretation...

Like I said, need that errata.
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Old 2008-07-28, 12:31   Link #3080
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Warning: following spoiler box is made of randomness. Feel free to ignore it if irks you.

Spoiler for random:


Hit by the sudden urge to write yet unable to direct it towards something meaningful, I have to resort to venting my frustration in simple words and posting it here. Though I hope it retains the slightest of value for being half-baked riddles of one thousand and one story ideas that has long been clogged in my mind that was released in this binge.

..though I have to say it feels great getting this out of my system through this selfish rant.
Interesting...

I wonder where this will lead...

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Zirnitra: "It begins..."
...indeed.

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Kluize: ...everything will go according to plan.
Gendo: Don't steal my lines.

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A magic bazooka out of elemental totems...Shamans everywhere wish they had that skill. :3
It's like tree-chucking

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Ah, clever. :3
Coming to a WoW expansion near you

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Well, most of the really good stuff doesn't happen until 70, so...*shrug*

Although there's no reason I can't have an ulterior motive. :3
Time to start getting in on those KZ pugs

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Do I detect a hint of genial animosity there, Kha? :3
Maybe just a tad, huh?

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Naa... Don't worry, I was already broken before... :P
Ah, ic ic

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Of course, that's rather expected, considering much of the cast is female. Besides, how can you not have a male OC with a planned large presence in the fanonverse who interacts to great extent with the cast without getting a little harem treatment?:P

Let's see... For Grandis, it's...

Spoiler for Current planned harem chart. >:3:
Harem chart?

*punts Aaron*

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~___~
DAMMIT, KHHHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Hmm...Signum and Teana singing What bout My Star together...

*RUNZ*

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Nighty-crack is this:

Spoiler:
Lol . So Katrina really likes her ice cream, huh?

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O-OI! Haven't you had enough of the KeroKha jokes from FFC?!
There can never be enough

*RUNZ*
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